by Consular » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:07 am
by Solorni » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:29 am
I'm going to suggest that the underlying reason many regions, or rather the 'governments' that control them, do not like this possibility comes down to a question of power. I think the real reason regions are so reluctant to abandon their offsite machinery is that this would involve a substantial reduction in power for those who control that forum.
by Cora II » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:29 am
by Solorni » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:34 am
by The Blaatschapen » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:38 am
Solorni wrote:What would be really cool, but easily made partisan or hated... would some sort of oligarchy rating for regions. But I don't think it's possible to do that the right way. People would just be furious.
by Solorni » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:42 am
The Blaatschapen wrote:Solorni wrote:What would be really cool, but easily made partisan or hated... would some sort of oligarchy rating for regions. But I don't think it's possible to do that the right way. People would just be furious.
I can do that.
All executive foundered regions are Oligarch in nature.
All regions with delegates where influence matters make up the big group in the middle.
Warzones come last.
There.
Done
by Riftey » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:14 am
✥ About ✥
Third Place Sexiest NSer 2K15
Largest Ego in Gameplay
Gameplay Ideology: Cause drama at any cost
Screw Democracy
✥ Gameplay ✥
Prophet of Sanctum
Watcher of Warzones
(Former) War Beserker of Cimmeria
(Former) MoFA of The Confederacy of Allied States
by Cormac Stark » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:17 pm
Consular wrote:Democracy in a simplistic sense is actually possible in NationStates and is practised every day, through the fundamentally democratic inbuilt system of electing WA Delegates. A small group of players then imposing their own system over the top of this, using notions of law as a facade, defeats the purpose of this and is not democratic at all in my mind. A democracy which relies on an offsite forum for its base has, I think, a highly dubious claim to even being a democracy at all. These forum 'democracies' we so readily accept impose unnatural constructs of law to uphold decisions made by a very small number of those who are actually affected by said decisions. I'm not making a moral judgment as to whether this is 'right', it is no more or less righteous than any other form of control in my mind, but it is all too often hypocritical. What is democracy in NationStates? It is a system of control and to call it anything else is pretense. It is a particularly effective system of control, because it carries with it lingering notions of legitimacy from real life, because it creates the illusion of equality and of everyone having a say in how the region is run.
by Cora II » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:30 pm
NationStates is a nation simulation game. Create a nation according to your political ideals and care for its people. Or deliberately oppress them. It's up to you.
(- Max Barry, Literature Author, Owner of the site for selling few novels)
by Misley » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:15 pm
Consular wrote:The reality is a democratic system conducted on an offsite forum is not a democracy. It is functionally, or at least in its effects, an oligarchy in which a small number of players vote for the candidate they prefer and impose that candidate on the rest of the region.
Consular wrote:The common excuse is that it is easy for new players to join this forum and partake in the system, but this is often not entirely true, with the various requirements for citizenship and oaths and other present obstacles.
Consular wrote:Even if these were swept aside, there is still the reality that only a small number of players ever do actively participate in these forums, for reasons of inconvenience or otherwise.
Consular wrote:For many it is simply that they do not particularly wish to have to use a private forum to fully experience the game of NationStates, and I do not think that is an unfair stance. The requirement that players utilise an offsite forum was created by, most often, the owners of that forum, the very oligarchs who propagate this system. Players are forced to partake in a system they neither created nor consented to in order to have any real say in their own region. Players are forced to partake in an entirely offsite mechanism, to be able to play the game of NationStates in full. Does that seem fair?
Consular wrote:It's not a question of how easy it is for them to join a forum, it is, for me, as simple as a belief that they should not have to.
Consular wrote:Regardless, I also think this argument that these players who do not involve themselves do not deserve a say is a poor one. It's an excuse meant to alleviate concerns over a system of government that is fundamentally flawed from the start and at worst disingenuous. While many governments undertake every effort to engage players and get them involved, the fact remains that these efforts have a limited degree of success, and any democratic vote conducted on this offsite system is only ever going to reflect a very small number of the players in the region.
Consular wrote:Despite the promising progress made with polls and other features, it remains very difficult to conduct a poll using the tools provided by NationStates that is free from potential manipulation.
Consular wrote:though this would require a change in moderation policy, which has so far been to direct players to create their own forums for regional organisation, for whatever reason.
by Consular » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:59 pm
Solorni wrote:What I find interesting is that when I brought this up in TNP, it was attacked on part because individuals there felt that the World Assembly nations were not informed enough to make gameplay decisions.
Cormac Stark wrote:First of all, to call the gathering of endorsements "democracy" how we think of democracy is honestly just absurd. How this happens in most Feeders and Sinkers is a nation endorses all of the other WA nations in the region, sends them a telegram asking for their endorsement, and usually receives the endorsement of any nation that is active enough to give it. There is no political debate, no actual deliberation. WA nations just endorse any nation that asks for their endorsement unless a compelling reason not to do so is presented to them (e.g., an unendorsement campaign). Once a nation is actually Delegate, they can import WA nations from elsewhere to keep them in the Delegacy while ejecting and banning WA nations that withdraw their endorsements or refuse to endorse them. "Democracy" by endorsement gathering is, at best, a one-time-only and very passive form of democracy. That is not democracy as we think of it at all.
Cormac Stark wrote:How you can think that system is better than or even as legitimate as forum democracy, I have no idea. Is forum democracy comprised of a small percentage of the region? Yes, in most cases, and especially in the case of Feeders and Sinkers. But forum democracy is nonetheless available to everyone in the region and is the only way to have anything but the most passive approval of Delegates. Forum democracy enables political debates, real opposition, and actual voting, instead of just passive approval by WA nations that are content to endorse you if only you endorse them and ask for their endorsement in return. Maybe a large chunk of the region doesn't participate in forum democracy, but large chunks of eligible voters don't participate in real life democratic elections either.
Cormac Stark wrote:I would rather have Delegates elected by people who actually care what they're doing than passively approved by nations that will endorse literally anyone who asks.
Misley wrote:TI has done as much as possible to avoid in its own offsite: nations are verified upon registration through the NS authentication API. If the nation verifies properly, registration continues; if the nation fails to validate for whatever reason, they have to put the auth code in again. Once validated, there is no citizenship test or oath - it's all done at registration and is designed to be quick and painless.
The same API call used to verify the nation checks whether or not the nation is in The Internationale. If it is, the nation is added to the "Comrade Member" usergroup which allows the nation to vote. If not, they are added to a "foreign visitor" usergroup that allows them to post and see all discussion, but not cast votes or engage in the active debate over matters up for the vote.
All registered nations are checked daily via a script to make sure they are still in the proper usergroup - if the nation has moved out of TI, their usergroup is switched to the "foreign visitor" group and vice versa.
This is possible because we are self-hosted and using an in-house modification to IPBoard (although I'm sure other forum software could be similarly modified), so I realize it's not an option for all region administrators, but it's easily the most democratic and easy system I've encountered in offsite forums.
Misley wrote:Only a small number of players actively participate in a region's governance regardless of whether it's offsite or not.
Until very recently, The Internationale conducted all of its regional business through direct democracy onsite via the Regional Message Board. Every now and then, we'd get upwards of 20-25 votes on a matter up for the vote, but usually votes hovered between the 10-16 mark.
Since transitioning to voluntary votes on the forum (votes cast on the forum holding the same validity as votes cast on the RMB), we have seen an average of 14 votes cast on the forum - no worse than we achieved through the RMB alone.
by Misley » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:31 pm
Consular wrote:That's fascinating and I think an ingenious way of running forum membership. I don't really have much to say on that beyond "I really like it".
Consular wrote:I have a few issues with regions that draw a distinction between residency and citizenship. They should be the same thing, and anything else creates a multi tiered citizenship system which I don't much care for. It creates an oligarchy of "citizens" above the mere residents. Anything which unnecessarily divides the nations of a region into groups with different permissions and rights is usually bad I think.
Consular wrote:But I accept few are interested in government. I'm asserting that relocating this government to an exclusive offsite group is not any solution to this and is undemocratic in principle. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but can nations vote either in game or on the offsite forum in your region? If so that seems a good compromise I think.
by Riftey » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:26 pm
✥ About ✥
Third Place Sexiest NSer 2K15
Largest Ego in Gameplay
Gameplay Ideology: Cause drama at any cost
Screw Democracy
✥ Gameplay ✥
Prophet of Sanctum
Watcher of Warzones
(Former) War Beserker of Cimmeria
(Former) MoFA of The Confederacy of Allied States
by Consular » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:21 pm
Riftey wrote:If this is the kind of content you put forward; Write more often? x
by Wickedly evil people » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:36 pm
by Zemnaya Svoboda » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:35 pm
by Todd McCloud » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:25 pm
Consular wrote:Democracy in a simplistic sense is actually possible in NationStates and is practised every day, through the fundamentally democratic inbuilt system of electing WA Delegates. A small group of players then imposing their own system over the top of this, using notions of law as a facade, defeats the purpose of this and is not democratic at all in my mind. A democracy which relies on an offsite forum for its base has, I think, a highly dubious claim to even being a democracy at all. These forum 'democracies' we so readily accept impose unnatural constructs of law to uphold decisions made by a very small number of those who are actually affected by said decisions. I'm not making a moral judgment as to whether this is 'right', it is no more or less righteous than any other form of control in my mind, but it is all too often hypocritical. What is democracy in NationStates? It is a system of control and to call it anything else is pretense. It is a particularly effective system of control, because it carries with it lingering notions of legitimacy from real life, because it creates the illusion of equality and of everyone having a say in how the region is run.
by Consular » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:57 pm
Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:This essay is written primarily about the Feeder regions, I expect.
In these regions, there are generally roughly five thousand nations. At best, a feeder region will see roughly one hundred choose to participate in an offsite government (usually closer to twenty).
New England have a Town Meeting form of government. They will typically have thousands to tens of thousands of residents and the town meeting will be in the low hundreds of persons.
Would the author argue that the town meeting form of government is not democratic?
Todd McCloud wrote:A democracy in NS is more or less a style of government where, should someone want to participate in the government, the opportunity is open to that nation. It's not democratic to demand everyone's participation; that's absurd. Much like the real-life democracies, the desire to vote, run for office, etc, is bestowed upon anyone who is willing to participate in it. And there are rules to maintain citizenship in most cases.
Todd McCloud wrote:citizenship like a contract
Todd McCloud wrote:They chose not to be citizens.
Todd McCloud wrote:Anyone who wishes to participate in the government may do so
Todd McCloud wrote:Once a nation requests a change, it is decided by many citizens and not just a few
by Zemnaya Svoboda » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:04 am
by Belschaft » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:21 am
by Pierconium » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:36 am
by Belschaft » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:53 am
Pierconium wrote:The argument that offsite minority representation is democratic is also made by apologists of the opposing viewpoint. I like to think of such institutions as republican (in the non-US sense of the term) with an oligarchical slant. The representation is not elected but is generally open and does often, at least in the GCRs, constitute a very small minority of the overall population.
by Tancerlo » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:51 am
Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I will note that in The North Pacific, Citizenship only grants the right to vote, and the presumption of a right to it is on the side of all nations resident in the region. Furthermore, the region recognizes the national rights to internal self-government, WA membership or non-membership as they may prefer, free speech in the regional context, to endorse or not endorse nations, to protection against abuse of power and specifically to request the recall of any government official, to due process, not to be ejected or banned except as expressly authorized by law (consistently with the rest of these rights), to prompt judicial recourse should they be ejected or banned, to transparency of the government, and to equal protection under the law to all nations in The North Pacific.
Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I find it interesting though: why are the votes of volunteer legislators unrepresentative, but elected ones representative?
Belschaft wrote:This is an argument that I've heard many times before, typically by apologists for the undemocratic GCR's.
That there are flaws in the off-site forum based governance system, most notably low participation, is self evident. No one has ever denied it. But NS is an imperfect simulation, and as such the capacity to properly construct a democracy isn't there; instead we can only do the best we can.
Your arguments that WA endorsements are in any way democratic were, again, not new. They were also illogical and facetious, requiring the reader to ignore how endorsements are actually exchanged - as Cormac pointed out.
All in all, this was a piss poor attempt at an apologist justification for TWP's form of government, rendered fundamentally absurd by the facetious effort to claim that oligarchic TWP is democratic and the democratic GCR's actually all oligarchies.
Propoganda disguised as essays isn't a new concept for NS, but it's something I'd advise against; get a reputation for it and you'll never actually be able to step outside that and produce generally impartial commentary without everyone mistrusting it and you.
by Pierconium » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:23 am
Belschaft wrote:Pierconium wrote:The argument that offsite minority representation is democratic is also made by apologists of the opposing viewpoint. I like to think of such institutions as republican (in the non-US sense of the term) with an oligarchical slant. The representation is not elected but is generally open and does often, at least in the GCRs, constitute a very small minority of the overall population.
I've always found "self selecting direct democracy" to be a better description, and to more accurately identify the problems with the system than the term oligarchy.
by Belschaft » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:17 am
Tancerlo wrote:Do you even know what the word facetious means?
Advertisement
Users browsing this forum: No registered users
Advertisement