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On Democracy, Tyranny, and Leadership in NationStates

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Consular
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On Democracy, Tyranny, and Leadership in NationStates

Postby Consular » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:07 am

An essay I wrote on democratic and undemocratic government in NationStates.

Yes, this is moderately long. No, there is no tl;dr version. Read it or don't. You gain as much as you put in.

There is this powerful and ever present presumption in NationStates that democratic government, most often specifically the kind organised through votes on an off site forum, is the most legitimate and the 'best' way to organise regional government. This is not universal by any means, but it does reflect the attitude of a large number of nations, and this is in turn reflected in the presence of democracy, or at least democratic values, in some form or another in the majority of regions. It is perhaps unsurprising that many players lean towards this notion of democracy as the only legitimate form of government, I imagine if we were to look at demographics we would find a majority of the players on this site are from democratic nations. It is only natural that they see the world from a particular perspective, whether they are subject to the strong worldview and philosophical traditions of 'western' society or whatever other influence. This translates into an imposition of these values onto NationStates, in what often takes the form of an attempt to recreate or mimic the legal structures of our real life societies, and this brings with it certain ideals like those surrounding democracy. Like I said at the beginning, I'm trying to avoid speaking in universalist terms, as there remain plenty of examples of highly undemocratic government, as well as players who explicitly reject democratic systems and the sentiments that support them. There is though I feel an attitude that is all too common that democracy is the ideal way to organise a region, and that other systems are by contrast, and through application of real life morality, therefore immoral. I intend to contest this position.

The reality is a democratic system conducted on an offsite forum is not a democracy. It is functionally, or at least in its effects, an oligarchy in which a small number of players vote for the candidate they prefer and impose that candidate on the rest of the region. This same group of players utilises a construct of 'law', which they themselves or their predecessors created, to legitimize this candidate. These 'laws' also provide some kind of seemingly morally accepted justification to act against those who would not accept this candidate. I would suggest these laws do not have such wide acceptance because they are voted on or composed through legal process (which is itself another false construct), they instead have acceptance because of their familiarity, because they mimic the rule of law we have in real life. This mirroring makes law seem natural and so it provides an easy justification for this otherwise offsite oligarchy. Legal systems provide a familiar mechanism of enforcement which the majority of other nations in the region will readily accept. But the point is these laws and the candidates it regulates are elected by a very small group of players, but a fraction of the amount of players who have nations residing in the region. This would be fine perhaps if this group functioned as a sort of representation of the wider region, like a parliament, but this is not the case. The obvious question that follows is whether a small group like this can truly claim to be democratic when it represents so few players who have a stake in the region, and my answer would be no. The candidates elected through these democracies are elected by and are accountable to a very small section of the population.

The common excuse is that it is easy for new players to join this forum and partake in the system, but this is often not entirely true, with the various requirements for citizenship and oaths and other present obstacles. Even if these were swept aside, there is still the reality that only a small number of players ever do actively participate in these forums, for reasons of inconvenience or otherwise. For many it is simply that they do not particularly wish to have to use a private forum to fully experience the game of NationStates, and I do not think that is an unfair stance. The requirement that players utilise an offsite forum was created by, most often, the owners of that forum, the very oligarchs who propagate this system. Players are forced to partake in a system they neither created nor consented to in order to have any real say in their own region. Players are forced to partake in an entirely offsite mechanism, to be able to play the game of NationStates in full. Does that seem fair? It's not a question of how easy it is for them to join a forum, it is, for me, as simple as a belief that they should not have to. Regardless, I also think this argument that these players who do not involve themselves do not deserve a say is a poor one. It's an excuse meant to alleviate concerns over a system of government that is fundamentally flawed from the start and at worst disingenuous. While many governments undertake every effort to engage players and get them involved, the fact remains that these efforts have a limited degree of success, and any democratic vote conducted on this offsite system is only ever going to reflect a very small number of the players in the region.

One could certainly argue that achieving democratic government without the use of an offsite forum is difficult, if not impossible. I'm not going to entirely disagree with that. Despite the promising progress made with polls and other features, it remains very difficult to conduct a poll using the tools provided by NationStates that is free from potential manipulation. The poll could certainly be restricted to World Assembly nations, which prevents players puppet flooding so to speak, but this has its own consequences in that it shuts out players unwilling to have the nation in the WA, or whose WA nations are elsewhere. I would suggest that perhaps this is not a bad thing, the game is already set up in such a way that players who refuse to join the WA have significantly less influence over world affairs. This would also for better or worse severely affect players of a cosmopolitan tendency, who are perhaps unwilling to keep their WA nation in a particular region for whatever reason. Given the tendency of certain players or groups to dominate multiple regions, this would obviously adversely affect their grasp on power and I imagine they would oppose it. There are other legitimate problems, such as the regional message board ultimately being a very poor tool for structuring multiple conversations, and really doing anything other than general chat. I think this could be solved through changes to the rules regarding the already present and widely used NationStates forums, though this would require a change in moderation policy, which has so far been to direct players to create their own forums for regional organisation, for whatever reason. The traditional belief that an offsite forum is the only way to organise a region is not unfounded, but I think it is becoming increasingly outdated, and as tools on NationStates are enhanced the argument that a region could exist and self govern entirely on site becomes stronger.

I'm going to suggest that the underlying reason many regions, or rather the 'governments' that control them, do not like this possibility comes down to a question of power. I think the real reason regions are so reluctant to abandon their offsite machinery is that this would involve a substantial reduction in power for those who control that forum. Take for an example the construct of citizenship that many regions implement, which would be a difficult thing to truly control without the security tools (some of them a tad questionable) provided by offsite architecture. This is a mechanism that limits access to government and power, its rules decided on by the small group of players who form an offsite government, and its rules enforced by that same group. It is difficult to oppose an oligarchy of players when one is forced to work within the very system that they created, a system designed to protect their way of thinking, their view of how a region should be run. The overriding concern for many regions is, and arguably rightly so in light of some unsavory types of players, security. I think this is often grossly exaggerated, if not used as an excuse to disallow new players from seeking power. The essential security of a region can be adequately achieved onsite. Offsite mechanisms provide a means of preventing unsavory types from infiltrating into legitimate positions perhaps, but these are far from perfect. History demonstrates rather clearly they do not prevent a Delegate from acting completely contrary to the wishes of a forum government.

Democracy in a simplistic sense is actually possible in NationStates and is practised every day, through the fundamentally democratic inbuilt system of electing WA Delegates. A small group of players then imposing their own system over the top of this, using notions of law as a facade, defeats the purpose of this and is not democratic at all in my mind. A democracy which relies on an offsite forum for its base has, I think, a highly dubious claim to even being a democracy at all. These forum 'democracies' we so readily accept impose unnatural constructs of law to uphold decisions made by a very small number of those who are actually affected by said decisions. I'm not making a moral judgment as to whether this is 'right', it is no more or less righteous than any other form of control in my mind, but it is all too often hypocritical. What is democracy in NationStates? It is a system of control and to call it anything else is pretense. It is a particularly effective system of control, because it carries with it lingering notions of legitimacy from real life, because it creates the illusion of equality and of everyone having a say in how the region is run.

Every leader in NationStates is a dictator, because a true separation of powers, often considered a founding basis of democratic rule, is not possible. Executive Delegates have complete control over their regions and all who reside there. User Created Regions have Founders, nations which in the overwhelming majority of cases have complete executive power over the region. Offsite forums, even those often used to facilitate 'democracies' of various falsehood, have a ROOT administrator with unremovable powers. Often 'laws' will theoretically restrict the legal powers of these positions, but that in no practical way diminishes their very real and very exercisable power. Yet democratic principles and the rule of law persist, despite these invariably autocratic positions. The absence of effective separation of powers is not necessarily a marker for tyranny, the particularly complete powers of an individual do not necessarily make them a tyrant. These individuals could be something else entirely, they could oppress their region mates as they please, but many do not. This comes down to a matter of choice, and I think the choice of legal government and other fallacies is far less important than the independent choices we all make as individuals. We choose to be good or bad, speaking along objectively moral terms, we choose to be benevolent or tyrants. This choice has little, I think, to do with whether a region is a democracy or otherwise. Whether democracy and the rule of law, concepts which I challenge above as false anyway, endure is a result of players themselves, not the system they work within. They are both ultimately meaningless and only hold sway as long as players believe they do. A democratically elected Delegate, regardless of their subjection to laws, can just as easily misbehave, and with just as unpleasant consequences, as a leader who inherited or seized the position.

I am drawing a distinction between an undemocratic leader and a tyrant. They are often presumed to be the same thing, as though the process of appointment of a leader is reflected in their character. I think this, like the common view of democracy as inherently noble, is carried over from views that permeate our real life societies. It is effectively legal positivism, in the sense that process defines legitimacy, not actual substance, and this is the basis of most modern legal systems, so it is quite familiar to us. I would argue that the true virtue of a leader, a Delegate, leans instead on their actual actions and their character. The manner in which they were elected does not dictate how they will lead. As noted above a democratic Delegate is perfectly capable of enacting a coup against their region. Often the 'legal' restraints imposed on the Delegate precisely to prevent this from occuring, become the impetus that encourages them to act in an extreme manner in the first place. A leader who is unelected will not necessarily be a tyrant, because there is a difference between democracy as a system, in all its flawed glory, and the democratic principles that underline a free society. Freedom of speech and transparent governance are perfectly achievable by a leader who does not support oligarchies in the pretense of democracies, or silly popularity contests. A benevolent autocrat can foster a cooperative environment just as easily as a strict democracy can crush the life from one. It is true that an autocrat can easily reverse these virtues on their own decision to do so, but so can a democratically elected Delegate, who is in practical terms just as autocratic in all but name. It is the decisions of individuals, not the product of any particular system, which generates stability and prosperity. A democratic system is not automatically more free nor any better than any other, and this assumption is harmful.

Undemocratic governments are often based on noble principles. A Delegate or position of authority might be appointed based on trust and respect, on demonstrated ability to lead, as opposed to the ability to appear moderate enough to be elected in what all too often amounts to a popularity contest. There is some measure of good in popularity of course, an unpopular Delegate will quickly find their position much more difficult to hold. A charismatic leader is capable of holding their position without any need for zealous employment of the ban tools, they lead because their region mates trust them to lead, because they have respect. Not all autocratic leaders are like this, certainly some rule from the basis of fear and control, but this is a choice they make as individuals and not an automatic product of them not being directly elected by the larger populace.

A democratic government maintained on an offsite forum is not more legitimate than any other regime, because it relies upon ideals of consent and social contract that are unattainable within that framework. As a product of mere game mechanics, a democratic leader is just as capable of misbehaviour as any other kind, and I don't believe the system itself inherently discourages or provides any true balance to this. An undemocratic regime can be benevolent, it can be dynamic and prosperous, it does not automatically mean the tyranny and oppression that are all too often associated with a lack of elections. The success of any particular system in NationStates is fundamentally based on the actions and merit of individuals, and legal constructs that surround them are largely irrelevant. Within this context and in light of the problems I've discussed, the idea that one leader is more legitimate, more 'good', than another simply because they were elected through a process vaguely reminiscent of democracy, is absurd.

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:29 am

This was really good :)

I'm going to suggest that the underlying reason many regions, or rather the 'governments' that control them, do not like this possibility comes down to a question of power. I think the real reason regions are so reluctant to abandon their offsite machinery is that this would involve a substantial reduction in power for those who control that forum.

I have argued heavily for this in my region this year, and I think Balder tends to be at least out of the GCRs one of the most inclusive when it comes to trying to include the voice of the vast amount of WAs via polls on military names and GA voting. Of course, my proposal to make it important to a much higher degree was shut down by various people in the region but this was said to have been on the basis of it being confusing and difficult to implement (or so they argued). Certainly, it is tricky because the polling system has inherent limits. You cannot for example really run an election in which people are given multiple votes to choose multiple candidates. But if you elect a President type figure this makes sense. Personally, I feel that regions should open it up more and from a utilitarian and pragmatic point of view this will equal more people joining the World Assembly and more people being more active within it.

Of course, I think you are correct when it comes to the oligarchic nature of regions and it does stifle innovation like this. What I find interesting is that when I brought this up in TNP, it was attacked on part because individuals there felt that the World Assembly nations were not informed enough to make gameplay decisions. Personally, that seems to me a lot like the real life arguments against enfranchising non-wealthy people who didn't own land. I feel like if you did this, people would get more engaged naturally. Why would people who have no say get involved in forum matters?

I think that while your argument on it being about control makes sense, I think it's primarily driven by biases and ignorance. Biases in the sense that people on forums tend to believe themselves to be better than those not on the forum. Nothing drives me more up the wall when I see in major regions, that Delegates are running polls as if they were running a Starbucks rather than trying to engage more with non-forum people and making it a dialogue of equals as well as by giving them a bit more agency. Ignorance because I think a lot of people still haven't thought of this yet. Although when I brought it up in Europeia in the Citizens Assembly, it was shut down unfortunately.
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Cora II
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Postby Cora II » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:29 am

Conclusion: people widely reject the fact This is game that can reflect the reality only in limited way, and that the one simplified model of democracy is hard-coded to the game's delegate election mechanics.

If your intention is try act democratically, being purist raider in-site is best option for you as an advocate of direct democracy against dictatorial founders, and off-site oligarchies.

And the world will be saved. :p

(Good read)
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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:34 am

What would be really cool, but easily made partisan or hated... would some sort of oligarchy rating for regions. But I don't think it's possible to do that the right way. People would just be furious.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:38 am

Solorni wrote:What would be really cool, but easily made partisan or hated... would some sort of oligarchy rating for regions. But I don't think it's possible to do that the right way. People would just be furious.


I can do that.

All executive foundered regions are Oligarch in nature.
All regions with delegates where influence matters make up the big group in the middle.
Warzones come last.

There.

Done :)
The Blaatschapen should resign

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:42 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Solorni wrote:What would be really cool, but easily made partisan or hated... would some sort of oligarchy rating for regions. But I don't think it's possible to do that the right way. People would just be furious.


I can do that.

All executive foundered regions are Oligarch in nature.
All regions with delegates where influence matters make up the big group in the middle.
Warzones come last.

There.

Done :)

You should resign as a mod, this is an unspeakable horror and unforgiveable!
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Riftey
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Postby Riftey » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:14 am

Solorni wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
I can do that.

All executive foundered regions are Oligarch in nature.
All regions with delegates where influence matters make up the big group in the middle.
Warzones come last.

There.

Done :)

You should resign as a mod, this is an unspeakable horror and unforgiveable!

Oh dear god - He comes the returns of "____ Should resign as moderator"

I'll give this a read when I get home from a mates. Looking forward to this.
Last edited by Riftey on Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cormac Stark
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Postby Cormac Stark » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:17 pm

Consular wrote:Democracy in a simplistic sense is actually possible in NationStates and is practised every day, through the fundamentally democratic inbuilt system of electing WA Delegates. A small group of players then imposing their own system over the top of this, using notions of law as a facade, defeats the purpose of this and is not democratic at all in my mind. A democracy which relies on an offsite forum for its base has, I think, a highly dubious claim to even being a democracy at all. These forum 'democracies' we so readily accept impose unnatural constructs of law to uphold decisions made by a very small number of those who are actually affected by said decisions. I'm not making a moral judgment as to whether this is 'right', it is no more or less righteous than any other form of control in my mind, but it is all too often hypocritical. What is democracy in NationStates? It is a system of control and to call it anything else is pretense. It is a particularly effective system of control, because it carries with it lingering notions of legitimacy from real life, because it creates the illusion of equality and of everyone having a say in how the region is run.

This is a very flawed way to look at things, for at least two reasons.

First of all, to call the gathering of endorsements "democracy" how we think of democracy is honestly just absurd. How this happens in most Feeders and Sinkers is a nation endorses all of the other WA nations in the region, sends them a telegram asking for their endorsement, and usually receives the endorsement of any nation that is active enough to give it. There is no political debate, no actual deliberation. WA nations just endorse any nation that asks for their endorsement unless a compelling reason not to do so is presented to them (e.g., an unendorsement campaign). Once a nation is actually Delegate, they can import WA nations from elsewhere to keep them in the Delegacy while ejecting and banning WA nations that withdraw their endorsements or refuse to endorse them. "Democracy" by endorsement gathering is, at best, a one-time-only and very passive form of democracy. That is not democracy as we think of it at all.

How you can think that system is better than or even as legitimate as forum democracy, I have no idea. Is forum democracy comprised of a small percentage of the region? Yes, in most cases, and especially in the case of Feeders and Sinkers. But forum democracy is nonetheless available to everyone in the region and is the only way to have anything but the most passive approval of Delegates. Forum democracy enables political debates, real opposition, and actual voting, instead of just passive approval by WA nations that are content to endorse you if only you endorse them and ask for their endorsement in return. Maybe a large chunk of the region doesn't participate in forum democracy, but large chunks of eligible voters don't participate in real life democratic elections either. I would rather have Delegates elected by people who actually care what they're doing than passively approved by nations that will endorse literally anyone who asks.

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Postby Cora II » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:30 pm

My spade ace for democracy is written here: http://www.nationstates.net/

it reads from letter to letter:

NationStates is a nation simulation game. Create a nation according to your political ideals and care for its people. Or deliberately oppress them. It's up to you.

(- Max Barry, Literature Author, Owner of the site for selling few novels)


Damn good guideline for democratic behavior. On arrival.
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Postby Misley » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:15 pm

This topic is particularly interesting to me as The Internationale is currently debating and voting on the question of transitioning all its voting activity to our relatively new off-site forum.

Consular wrote:The reality is a democratic system conducted on an offsite forum is not a democracy. It is functionally, or at least in its effects, an oligarchy in which a small number of players vote for the candidate they prefer and impose that candidate on the rest of the region.

This is true of any region that allows a quorum of less than 50% of its nations, though, no matter how they conduct their votes. A region of 500 nations that holds an onsite election that gets 50 votes can be just as "oligarchic" as a region of 500 nations that holds an offsite election that gets 50 votes.

Consular wrote:The common excuse is that it is easy for new players to join this forum and partake in the system, but this is often not entirely true, with the various requirements for citizenship and oaths and other present obstacles.

This is a very valid criticism, and one that I've made as a criticism of offsites in the past.

TI has done as much as possible to avoid in its own offsite: nations are verified upon registration through the NS authentication API. If the nation verifies properly, registration continues; if the nation fails to validate for whatever reason, they have to put the auth code in again. Once validated, there is no citizenship test or oath - it's all done at registration and is designed to be quick and painless.

The same API call used to verify the nation checks whether or not the nation is in The Internationale. If it is, the nation is added to the "Comrade Member" usergroup which allows the nation to vote. If not, they are added to a "foreign visitor" usergroup that allows them to post and see all discussion, but not cast votes or engage in the active debate over matters up for the vote.

All registered nations are checked daily via a script to make sure they are still in the proper usergroup - if the nation has moved out of TI, their usergroup is switched to the "foreign visitor" group and vice versa.

This is possible because we are self-hosted and using an in-house modification to IPBoard (although I'm sure other forum software could be similarly modified), so I realize it's not an option for all region administrators, but it's easily the most democratic and easy system I've encountered in offsite forums.

Consular wrote:Even if these were swept aside, there is still the reality that only a small number of players ever do actively participate in these forums, for reasons of inconvenience or otherwise.

Only a small number of players actively participate in a region's governance regardless of whether it's offsite or not.

Until very recently, The Internationale conducted all of its regional business through direct democracy onsite via the Regional Message Board. Every now and then, we'd get upwards of 20-25 votes on a matter up for the vote, but usually votes hovered between the 10-16 mark.

Since transitioning to voluntary votes on the forum (votes cast on the forum holding the same validity as votes cast on the RMB), we have seen an average of 14 votes cast on the forum - no worse than we achieved through the RMB alone.

Consular wrote:For many it is simply that they do not particularly wish to have to use a private forum to fully experience the game of NationStates, and I do not think that is an unfair stance. The requirement that players utilise an offsite forum was created by, most often, the owners of that forum, the very oligarchs who propagate this system. Players are forced to partake in a system they neither created nor consented to in order to have any real say in their own region. Players are forced to partake in an entirely offsite mechanism, to be able to play the game of NationStates in full. Does that seem fair?

This is another valid criticism. I was pretty staunchly opposed to an offsite forum until very recently. As TI has hovered around the ~450 nation mark, we've come to realize that there are conversations and topics that could be better organized in a formal forum than through the disorganized Shoutbox-style RMB. IPBoard also allows us to hold multiple polls in a single topic, maximizing the user-friendliness of votes for our comrade members.

What does not make sense to me is tiny regions creating offsite forums just because big regions do it. It's my experience that an offsite really isn't necessary until you have a lot of activity that needs to be organized in some fashion.

Consular wrote:It's not a question of how easy it is for them to join a forum, it is, for me, as simple as a belief that they should not have to.

Perhaps it's not a question of easiness, but ease should be a factor that regions strive for. I don't understand why so many regions are content with elaborate forum citizenship application processes and the hours of work it takes to maintain that bureaucracy. It's mind-numbing.

It took several hours of work to get the code for TI's forum working, but now that it does, I don't have to touch anything. Nations are granted appropriate permissions automatically and are updated within 24 hours of migration. It would not be any easier to use TI's forum if it was integrated directly into NationStates.

Consular wrote:Regardless, I also think this argument that these players who do not involve themselves do not deserve a say is a poor one. It's an excuse meant to alleviate concerns over a system of government that is fundamentally flawed from the start and at worst disingenuous. While many governments undertake every effort to engage players and get them involved, the fact remains that these efforts have a limited degree of success, and any democratic vote conducted on this offsite system is only ever going to reflect a very small number of the players in the region.

See my above response to this critique. Even without a forum TI saw fairly low turnout in its direct democracy.

Regions that passively build up walls in their forum (keeping some forums hidden until you have "proper" masking, having long waits for bureaucrats to approve applications) are perhaps more guilty of this, though. Particularly regions that keep discussions hidden from public view, requiring members of the region to register and be processed to see them.

Consular wrote:Despite the promising progress made with polls and other features, it remains very difficult to conduct a poll using the tools provided by NationStates that is free from potential manipulation.

My problem with polls is the inability to run multiple concurrent polls. TI frequently votes on many matters up for the vote at the same time (particularly when it comes to things like embassies). It is impossible for us to use on-site features to manage these kinds of decisions, even without entering into discussion about poll security.

Consular wrote:though this would require a change in moderation policy, which has so far been to direct players to create their own forums for regional organisation, for whatever reason.

It seems like you'd want to keep traffic (and ads, and ad revenue) on-site as much as possible, but I'm not on the moderation/admin team. Maybe they don't want the workload that on-site regional forums would involve.
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:59 pm

Some great responses! I'll try to respond some of the points I found really interesting.
Solorni wrote:What I find interesting is that when I brought this up in TNP, it was attacked on part because individuals there felt that the World Assembly nations were not informed enough to make gameplay decisions.

Indeed, that's not an uncommon response. Personally I find it to be an incredibly patronising and rather elitist attitude, the exact kind of thing we should be avoiding if we want to help develop new generations of leaders in this game. It is also reflecting a fundamentally undemocratic ideal I think, in its opposition to the idea that all votes and opinions of all people carry equal weight.

Otherwise I broadly agree with most of what you've said. I hope you keep pushing for innovative systems regardless of the opposition of forum groups.

Cormac Stark wrote:First of all, to call the gathering of endorsements "democracy" how we think of democracy is honestly just absurd. How this happens in most Feeders and Sinkers is a nation endorses all of the other WA nations in the region, sends them a telegram asking for their endorsement, and usually receives the endorsement of any nation that is active enough to give it. There is no political debate, no actual deliberation. WA nations just endorse any nation that asks for their endorsement unless a compelling reason not to do so is presented to them (e.g., an unendorsement campaign). Once a nation is actually Delegate, they can import WA nations from elsewhere to keep them in the Delegacy while ejecting and banning WA nations that withdraw their endorsements or refuse to endorse them. "Democracy" by endorsement gathering is, at best, a one-time-only and very passive form of democracy. That is not democracy as we think of it at all.

It certainly is not perfect, but it is the truest sense of democracy in this game.

And on the contrary, it very much is democracy as we think of it. Democracy in real life is based primarily off name recognition. The overwhelming majority of voters do not read platforms or other such information. Just like in a real democracy, people can choose to be careful with their vote or endorsement if they wish, but the majority will not be. That IS democracy. Forum governments cultivate systems in which only the more informed participate, because they have to go out of their way to do so. One might argue this is a good thing and I'm making no comment on its morality, but this is at heart an oligarchy. We have in NationStates replicated an already flawed system, but with wildly different issues.

Cormac Stark wrote:How you can think that system is better than or even as legitimate as forum democracy, I have no idea. Is forum democracy comprised of a small percentage of the region? Yes, in most cases, and especially in the case of Feeders and Sinkers. But forum democracy is nonetheless available to everyone in the region and is the only way to have anything but the most passive approval of Delegates. Forum democracy enables political debates, real opposition, and actual voting, instead of just passive approval by WA nations that are content to endorse you if only you endorse them and ask for their endorsement in return. Maybe a large chunk of the region doesn't participate in forum democracy, but large chunks of eligible voters don't participate in real life democratic elections either.

If you have no idea how I can think that perhaps you should read the essay again. But anyway that's not what I was arguing at all, my primary point has been that there is no fundamental moral quality to either a democratic or undemocratic government, and I was deliberately undermining forum democracies to illustrate this.

I think that the same nations who would bother to participate in a forum democracy, are the kind who would already be more discerning than most with who they choose to endorse as Delegate. A forum democracy is not increasing the level of voting responsibility because it only caters to those who already care, they care and that's why they bothered to jump through the various hoops of joining someone else's forum. Forum democracies do not increase responsibility, they only relocate it offsite, where it can be manipulated by oligarchic groups. In doing so they create yet another unnecessary barrier between the leadership of the region and those that are being led.

Cormac Stark wrote:I would rather have Delegates elected by people who actually care what they're doing than passively approved by nations that will endorse literally anyone who asks.


And this is the heart of the matter, isn't it! In my mind, this view is fundamentally undemocratic. In any given democracy there will be elements of popularity contests, and plenty of voters who vote based on random or illogical reasons, if not voters who merely select at random. That is for better or worse (mainly worse I think) an element of democracy. If you don't like it, that's fine, but your view is I think oligarchic in its assumption that some people ("people who actually care") are better qualified to decide the regional leadership than others.

Misley wrote:TI has done as much as possible to avoid in its own offsite: nations are verified upon registration through the NS authentication API. If the nation verifies properly, registration continues; if the nation fails to validate for whatever reason, they have to put the auth code in again. Once validated, there is no citizenship test or oath - it's all done at registration and is designed to be quick and painless.

The same API call used to verify the nation checks whether or not the nation is in The Internationale. If it is, the nation is added to the "Comrade Member" usergroup which allows the nation to vote. If not, they are added to a "foreign visitor" usergroup that allows them to post and see all discussion, but not cast votes or engage in the active debate over matters up for the vote.

All registered nations are checked daily via a script to make sure they are still in the proper usergroup - if the nation has moved out of TI, their usergroup is switched to the "foreign visitor" group and vice versa.

This is possible because we are self-hosted and using an in-house modification to IPBoard (although I'm sure other forum software could be similarly modified), so I realize it's not an option for all region administrators, but it's easily the most democratic and easy system I've encountered in offsite forums.

That's fascinating and I think an ingenious way of running forum membership. I don't really have much to say on that beyond "I really like it".

I have a few issues with regions that draw a distinction between residency and citizenship. They should be the same thing, and anything else creates a multi tiered citizenship system which I don't much care for. It creates an oligarchy of "citizens" above the mere residents. Anything which unnecessarily divides the nations of a region into groups with different permissions and rights is usually bad I think. One could I suppose argue this is not dissimilar to RL nations, but that depends on where you live; in New Zealand residents and citizens have largely the same rights in all matters, including elections.

Misley wrote:Only a small number of players actively participate in a region's governance regardless of whether it's offsite or not.

Until very recently, The Internationale conducted all of its regional business through direct democracy onsite via the Regional Message Board. Every now and then, we'd get upwards of 20-25 votes on a matter up for the vote, but usually votes hovered between the 10-16 mark.

Since transitioning to voluntary votes on the forum (votes cast on the forum holding the same validity as votes cast on the RMB), we have seen an average of 14 votes cast on the forum - no worse than we achieved through the RMB alone.

This is true enough. But I accept few are interested in government. I'm asserting that relocating this government to an exclusive offsite group is not any solution to this and is undemocratic in principle. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but can nations vote either in game or on the offsite forum in your region? If so that seems a good compromise I think.

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Postby Misley » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:31 pm

Consular wrote:That's fascinating and I think an ingenious way of running forum membership. I don't really have much to say on that beyond "I really like it".

Thanks. :) I think more regions would benefit from taking advantage of tech developments in NS. A lot of regional offsites are not much different today than if they had been (or were) established years ago before things like this were possible. But I do realize it isn't possible with free forums.

Consular wrote:I have a few issues with regions that draw a distinction between residency and citizenship. They should be the same thing, and anything else creates a multi tiered citizenship system which I don't much care for. It creates an oligarchy of "citizens" above the mere residents. Anything which unnecessarily divides the nations of a region into groups with different permissions and rights is usually bad I think.

I agree. The stratification of regional members creates class divides within a region, which TI obviously resists.

Consular wrote:But I accept few are interested in government. I'm asserting that relocating this government to an exclusive offsite group is not any solution to this and is undemocratic in principle. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but can nations vote either in game or on the offsite forum in your region? If so that seems a good compromise I think.

I don't suggest that moving democracy off-site is a solution to anything other than providing the forum admin (which in TI's case is me, and I control the Founder) with the ability to verify that votes are being cast by a single player and that there is no tampering involved. Of course, the members of the region have to rely on the forum admin's word that this is the case.

As of right now, votes cast on the RMB and forum are both valid. If the Charter is adopted by our Comrade Members, it will move all votes to the forum. But we've done everything we can to ensure that this is not an "exclusive group" - all proposals and votes and the discussion on them are visible to guests. There are no areas visible only to members of the forum.
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Riftey
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Postby Riftey » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:26 pm

Just read through it and find myself with nothing to dispute. Nothing at all.

I really did enjoy the part where you drew the comparisons between a benevolent autocrat and a democracy with a malevolent elected leader. An argument i've drawn upon myself multiple times when i've gone to "Captain's picks" opposed to the popular yet unwise decision; For the most part across my regions you have found that the region is more then happy to accept this as the case if they're secure with your intentions. Often finding the ones who kick up a storm about democracy are the ones who often would be the "malevolent leader" if given the chance to be elected. I feel this is just one of many examples which go to show while democracy should allow for a more happy and cohesive environment that it instead creates something where manipulation is needed to obtain desires rather then transparent orders.

The comments around offsites not being easy is true. The amount of regions I've joined o look through all the applications needed to swim through to simply be welcomed is ridiculous. I get the purpose but; Eh. I feel if I - Someone who has been fairly involved on NS for most of my 2 years here - get iffy about all that crap; Wouldn't some new person?

Either way - Very good read. If this is the kind of content you put forward; Write more often? x
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Postby Consular » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:21 pm

Riftey wrote:If this is the kind of content you put forward; Write more often? x

I'm hoping to write a piece on the value of a community over the region itself eventually, the idea is stewing over in my mind for now.

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Postby Wickedly evil people » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:36 pm

I suppose it is no surprise that I support Consular's view
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Postby Zemnaya Svoboda » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:35 pm

This essay is written primarily about the Feeder regions, I expect.

In these regions, there are generally roughly five thousand nations. At best, a feeder region will see roughly one hundred choose to participate in an offsite government (usually closer to twenty).

New England have a Town Meeting form of government. They will typically have thousands to tens of thousands of residents and the town meeting will be in the low hundreds of persons.

Would the author argue that the town meeting form of government is not democratic?

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Postby Todd McCloud » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:25 pm

Consular wrote:Democracy in a simplistic sense is actually possible in NationStates and is practised every day, through the fundamentally democratic inbuilt system of electing WA Delegates. A small group of players then imposing their own system over the top of this, using notions of law as a facade, defeats the purpose of this and is not democratic at all in my mind. A democracy which relies on an offsite forum for its base has, I think, a highly dubious claim to even being a democracy at all. These forum 'democracies' we so readily accept impose unnatural constructs of law to uphold decisions made by a very small number of those who are actually affected by said decisions. I'm not making a moral judgment as to whether this is 'right', it is no more or less righteous than any other form of control in my mind, but it is all too often hypocritical. What is democracy in NationStates? It is a system of control and to call it anything else is pretense. It is a particularly effective system of control, because it carries with it lingering notions of legitimacy from real life, because it creates the illusion of equality and of everyone having a say in how the region is run.

I must disagree. A democracy in NS is more or less a style of government where, should someone want to participate in the government, the opportunity is open to that nation. It's not democratic to demand everyone's participation; that's absurd. Much like the real-life democracies, the desire to vote, run for office, etc, is bestowed upon anyone who is willing to participate in it. And there are rules to maintain citizenship in most cases.

For the regions that do it right, they treat citizenship like a contract. One can freely reside in the region provided they do not disrupt the region, say, by posting spam on the RMB (more on that later). If one wants to participate in the government, they may do so by becomming a citizen in the region. Are they a citizen for simply residing in the region? When we don't have things like passports, visas, etc, so the answer to that question is no. Citizenship is a contract. When one becomes a citizen in one of these regions, they are afforded rights of citizens. Typically, this means the right to a trial, right to speech, right to run for office, etc. In turn, the applying nation agrees to abide by the rules presented in the region and to have loyalty for that region.

Rules? Whoa, man! Rules are bad! No, rules are good. They establish order and fairness provided these rules are not too intrusive or downright unfair. It's these rules that allow democracy to take root; we've seen before in NS what happens when there is a lack of rules. Anyway, citizenship in this respect becomes an agreement. And it's a complete agreement, as everyone who is a citizen has agreed to abide by it. Indeed, it's the people who choose what rules they want to follow and which they do not want to. Which leads into a second ability the "regions who do it right" have: a relatively easy, yet extensive, means of changing laws. That is to say, if a law change is desired, a new person can easily suggest a change, but the change has to be agreed upon by the maximum amount of people. Not a small council, not just the delegate - it needs to extend to the most folks, which is limited by, you got it, those who choose to take interest in it. It's not a democracy to force someone into doing something they do not want to do.

Now do these rules extend to non-citizens? Why no, of course not. They didn't sign the contract. They chose not to be citizens. For instance, if the drinking age for the 'States is 21, is someone in Germany breaking the law if their drinking age is 16 and they're 20 (I have no idea what the laws are in Germany, don't quote me on that)? Of course not. So, a non-citizen can't be tried for treason or run for office in a region "that does it right." They're not afforded the same rights, either. Free speech in the US is different than free speech in, say, Saudi Arabia. And that's how democracy should be treated in NS. You have citizens who have agreed to abide by the laws of the region and become citizens, you have natives that have moved over into the region and happened to like it but really don't want to be in the government, and passer-byes, puppet plants, goofy nations, etc who really don't care if they're in a region (more along the lines of a GCR). But then where does the jurisdiction lie? In NS, again, it's tricky. The jurisdiction for the law extends to the entire region - that's how the region runs. The protection of the law is only afforded to citizens, but there are typically built-in protections for non-citizens, i.e., a delegate can't just ban 1,000 nations or suppress random posts provided they have rules that restrict the behavior of the delegate.

But that sounds rather counter-intuitive, doesn't it? Well, that's because while citizenship is a contract, residing in the region has its own agreement. It's just not usually outlined, especially in GCR's where many nations spawn in the region via a game mechanic. In short, one can reside in the region with as little governmental dealing as possible provided they do not create a disruption in the region, like spam, demand physical harm on another member, etc. The government is allowed to police itself and provide a safe and fun environment for both citizens and non-citizens alike. But, as the old saying goes, my freedom stops where your freedom starts.

In this light, do democracies in NS exist? Well, yes they do. There are several regions I have in mind with respect to this definition. A true NS democracy has their government run in such a fashion. Anyone who wishes to participate in the government may do so with little to no hurdles to cross, provided they undergo citizenship. A true democracy allows citizens, any citizen, to run for office or, should they wish, suggest changes to the government and its laws. Once a nation requests a change, it is decided by many citizens and not just a few. AND, democracies allow nations that do not wish to participate in the government to just not do that. They have the right to not participate and not become a citizen if they don't want to.

That's a true NS democracy.
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Postby Consular » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:57 pm

I suppose I should have expected most of the responses would be in defence of democracy, rather than looking at the other (I think more important) points I was pursuing with the essay. It's fine though.

Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:This essay is written primarily about the Feeder regions, I expect.

In these regions, there are generally roughly five thousand nations. At best, a feeder region will see roughly one hundred choose to participate in an offsite government (usually closer to twenty).

New England have a Town Meeting form of government. They will typically have thousands to tens of thousands of residents and the town meeting will be in the low hundreds of persons.

Would the author argue that the town meeting form of government is not democratic?

I would say any decision made by that meeting and subsequently imposed on the rest of the town would not be particularly representative. Parliaments have some right to legislate because their members are approved by the people as representatives, they do not merely show up.

Regardless, let's try approaching this from a different angle. What exactly makes such a Town Meeting system democratic? The fact that it is open to all citizens to contribute, presumably. This is very similar to Todd's approach below.

Todd McCloud wrote:A democracy in NS is more or less a style of government where, should someone want to participate in the government, the opportunity is open to that nation. It's not democratic to demand everyone's participation; that's absurd. Much like the real-life democracies, the desire to vote, run for office, etc, is bestowed upon anyone who is willing to participate in it. And there are rules to maintain citizenship in most cases.

To begin with a specific point, it isn't absurd to demand participation. Ancient Athenian "democracy" (in so far as it could be called such) specifically required people to attend assemblies. Many modern democracies actually make voting in national elections compulsory (failing to do so is a crime and subject to a potentially hefty fine), in hope of achieving a more accurate representation of the whole populace. Most modern nations are far as I'm aware also don't actually have requirements to maintain citizenship; it is an unalienable right, not something that is given. It's possible you meant both of these comments only within an NS context, but you also refer to how NS democracies are much like real democracies, so I wasn't overly sure.

Todd McCloud wrote:citizenship like a contract

Which brings me to what I suppose I find perverse about forum based democracy, this notion of a contract. Nations have to opt in, contract into a system set up by others, if they want to have a vote or a say.

I'm not sure how the notion of citizenship as a contract is justified by NS regions not having passports and the such. People can vote and be full citizens without a passport IRL. That's an entirely separate issue and there is nothing stopping regions from issuing such things (aside from enormous pointlessness of it).

One can view the contract as voluntary but when you get right down to it, it is not. Whether they choose to attain citizenship or not nations in the region are still bound by the will of its government. If a nation acts contrary to the wishes of the already established government, that it did not necessarily consent to, it can and will have force used against it. Nations are bound to laws they didn't approve, and to have a say they have to join a system they didn't approve. A true contract isn't just about consideration (benefits or reasons that underpin why a party signed), but free will -- nations aren't consenting of free will because they are highly uneven parties in this transaction, they have to consent or not have any rights, and they are bound by the government regardless of any consent whatsoever.

I'm not saying this is a bad choice of governance. But just as with "social contract" theory IRL it is subject to certain criticisms -- ideologically the theory is sound but in practical terms it is not, because implied consent is given in a situation where realistically for most people there is no other choice.

I think the key to democracy at heart is not social contract, but consent of the governed -- and I do not think forum democracies have established this at all. They have at best a dubious claim to represent the wider nations of the region, for reasons I explored in my original essay.

Todd McCloud wrote:They chose not to be citizens.

No, they did not. Your system of democracy is opt in, not opt out. They didn't resign any of their rights. Instead they had the misfortune to be located within a regime that has decided they don't have any rights, unless they agree to be a part of said regime. They didn't choose to not be anything, they just didn't proactively become part of a class of superior nations defined and maintained by themselves, who have decided for themselves that by virtue of their own internal democracy they have a right to set these and other rules for the entire region.

I would think in a real democracy the rights of all to be heard and vote would be natural. They shouldn't have to sign a contract, agree to some corporate-esque terms and conditions, and uphold activity requirements on some oligarch's forums, or whatever other matters compelled by the contract, in order to have any rights.

Your analogy about drinking ages in different countries makes little sense to me. The laws in the US obviously do not apply to Germany, and similarly in NS the laws of TEP would not apply to TWP. Here we aren't talking about different countries with different laws, or different regions with different laws, we're talking about the same region, with presumably one set of "laws" prescribed over it by whomever holds the power to do so. There is a difference I think between "citizens" (as defined by some forum government) vs others in the region (natives, shall we say), and citizens vs citizens from different countries IRL (visitors, residents, perhaps). Not least because in the case of feeders, nations have naturally been created there -- In a IRL context they would be citizens by birthright. But in NS they are not, because they haven't joined the elite group of oligarchs, which they need to do to become "citizens".

This is an oligarchy. The system is prescribed by a small number of nations (usually and by no coincidence the nations that hold onto power in the region), new nations have no choice in the matter. The only way they can have a say is if they agree to become a part of the system, which of course only further legitimises it.

Forum democracies are by definition oligarchy because a limited group makes the rules, and that same group controls admission to its own ranks as it pleases. A oligarchy can be (and they often are) internally democratic.

Todd McCloud wrote:Anyone who wishes to participate in the government may do so

Seems to me that the core of your argument is that forum democracies are democratic because they are open, because anyone can join. My view on this is in my original essay:

"The common excuse is that it is easy for new players to join this forum and partake in the system, but this is often not entirely true, with the various requirements for citizenship and oaths and other present obstacles. Even if these were swept aside, there is still the reality that only a small number of players ever do actively participate in these forums, for reasons of inconvenience or otherwise. For many it is simply that they do not particularly wish to have to use a private forum to fully experience the game of NationStates, and I do not think that is an unfair stance. The requirement that players utilise an offsite forum was created by, most often, the owners of that forum, the very oligarchs who propagate this system. Players are forced to partake in a system they neither created nor consented to in order to have any real say in their own region. Players are forced to partake in an entirely offsite mechanism, to be able to play the game of NationStates in full. Does that seem fair? It's not a question of how easy it is for them to join a forum, it is, for me, as simple as a belief that they should not have to."

Their right to participate is subject to the terms of others, that they never consented to.

Todd McCloud wrote:Once a nation requests a change, it is decided by many citizens and not just a few

Votes, especially the public voting many regions favour for whatever reason, hang on the voices of long standing region members. There are 'old guard' type groups in most region, and they pretty much decide what happens -- their support makes or breaks ideas, new players listen to them, and as with IRL democracies people more often than not will simply vote for or alongside a recognised name.

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Zemnaya Svoboda
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Postby Zemnaya Svoboda » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:04 am

I will note that in The North Pacific, Citizenship only grants the right to vote, and the presumption of a right to it is on the side of all nations resident in the region. Furthermore, the region recognizes the national rights to internal self-government, WA membership or non-membership as they may prefer, free speech in the regional context, to endorse or not endorse nations, to protection against abuse of power and specifically to request the recall of any government official, to due process, not to be ejected or banned except as expressly authorized by law (consistently with the rest of these rights), to prompt judicial recourse should they be ejected or banned, to transparency of the government, and to equal protection under the law to all nations in The North Pacific.

Perhaps it is because the older members of The North Pacific do not generally close ranks, but I do not perceive our votes as being decided by a few old members. You're welcome to analyze the voting records in the Regional Assembly if you like. Perhaps you will see a pattern I do not.

I find it interesting though: why are the votes of volunteer legislators unrepresentative, but elected ones representative?

Edit: The vote record analysis spreadsheet appears to be broken. It worked the last time I tried it! I've contacted the author regarding the problem. Sorry about that.
Last edited by Zemnaya Svoboda on Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Belschaft » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:21 am

This is an argument that I've heard many times before, typically by apologists for the undemocratic GCR's.

That there are flaws in the off-site forum based governance system, most notably low participation, is self evident. No one has ever denied it. But NS is an imperfect simulation, and as such the capacity to properly construct a democracy isn't there; instead we can only do the best we can.

Your arguments that WA endorsements are in any way democratic were, again, not new. They were also illogical and facetious, requiring the reader to ignore how endorsements are actually exchanged - as Cormac pointed out.

All in all, this was a piss poor attempt at an apologist justification for TWP's form of government, rendered fundamentally absurd by the facetious effort to claim that oligarchic TWP is democratic and the democratic GCR's actually all oligarchies.

Propoganda disguised as essays isn't a new concept for NS, but it's something I'd advise against; get a reputation for it and you'll never actually be able to step outside that and produce generally impartial commentary without everyone mistrusting it and you.
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Postby Pierconium » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:36 am

The argument that offsite minority representation is democratic is also made by apologists of the opposing viewpoint. I like to think of such institutions as republican (in the non-US sense of the term) with an oligarchical slant. The representation is not elected but is generally open and does often, at least in the GCRs, constitute a very small minority of the overall population.
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Postby Belschaft » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:53 am

Pierconium wrote:The argument that offsite minority representation is democratic is also made by apologists of the opposing viewpoint. I like to think of such institutions as republican (in the non-US sense of the term) with an oligarchical slant. The representation is not elected but is generally open and does often, at least in the GCRs, constitute a very small minority of the overall population.

I've always found "self selecting direct democracy" to be a better description, and to more accurately identify the problems with the system than the term oligarchy.
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Postby Tancerlo » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:51 am

Edit: Bah, responded with the wrong nation. This is OP.

Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I will note that in The North Pacific, Citizenship only grants the right to vote, and the presumption of a right to it is on the side of all nations resident in the region. Furthermore, the region recognizes the national rights to internal self-government, WA membership or non-membership as they may prefer, free speech in the regional context, to endorse or not endorse nations, to protection against abuse of power and specifically to request the recall of any government official, to due process, not to be ejected or banned except as expressly authorized by law (consistently with the rest of these rights), to prompt judicial recourse should they be ejected or banned, to transparency of the government, and to equal protection under the law to all nations in The North Pacific.

True enough. I tried to make it clear that I was not speaking in absolutes with anything I've said. TNP indeed does better than many -- I view your citizenship more as a registration to vote type scenario. This is not too dissimilar from an IRL democracy. I will gladly admit that I find few flaws in terms of social contract here, and don't have much to criticise at all. :) I'm not a great believer in the effectiveness of democracy as a system in general and TNP's red tape isn't for me, but that's irrelevant to the assessment of the essay, which was whether democracy was possible regardless of whether it was favourable.

My argument across the first few paragraphs was never intended as some broad statement that democracy is completely possible. I was just hoping to point out its various built in flaws that make it inherently very very difficult, and often oligarchic in practice. I've aimed to undermine certain arguments that I consider highly undemocratic in principle -- like notions that nations who are uninformed don't need to vote anyway, et cetera.

I consider TNP's openness as a system to be the result of individuals striving for it to be that way, not an inherent quality of democracy. I think undemocratic regions can have many of these rights -- rule of law, right to freedom of affairs, free speech in all contexts, etc. It depends on the intentions and character of the leader. I simultaneously think that a democratic leader can infringe on rights just as easily as a tyrant -- this is an unavoidable consequence of our game mechanics. I hope my introduction and conclusion guided this as my primary argument, rather than the point on built in democracy that everyone seems very focussed on.

Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I find it interesting though: why are the votes of volunteer legislators unrepresentative, but elected ones representative?

I would say because the latter were elected by the populace to represent them and are accountable as such, while the former were not. A matter of consent, I suppose. The former can be representative if a majority of the region decides to participate, but this is rare. More people I find are willing to vote, than to actually debate and partake directly in democracy, so representative democracy tends to be more effective and direct. This is just an opinion.

Belschaft wrote:This is an argument that I've heard many times before, typically by apologists for the undemocratic GCR's.

That there are flaws in the off-site forum based governance system, most notably low participation, is self evident. No one has ever denied it. But NS is an imperfect simulation, and as such the capacity to properly construct a democracy isn't there; instead we can only do the best we can.

Your arguments that WA endorsements are in any way democratic were, again, not new. They were also illogical and facetious, requiring the reader to ignore how endorsements are actually exchanged - as Cormac pointed out.

All in all, this was a piss poor attempt at an apologist justification for TWP's form of government, rendered fundamentally absurd by the facetious effort to claim that oligarchic TWP is democratic and the democratic GCR's actually all oligarchies.

Propoganda disguised as essays isn't a new concept for NS, but it's something I'd advise against; get a reputation for it and you'll never actually be able to step outside that and produce generally impartial commentary without everyone mistrusting it and you.

Do you even know what the word facetious means?
Last edited by Tancerlo on Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pierconium
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Postby Pierconium » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:23 am

Belschaft wrote:
Pierconium wrote:The argument that offsite minority representation is democratic is also made by apologists of the opposing viewpoint. I like to think of such institutions as republican (in the non-US sense of the term) with an oligarchical slant. The representation is not elected but is generally open and does often, at least in the GCRs, constitute a very small minority of the overall population.

I've always found "self selecting direct democracy" to be a better description, and to more accurately identify the problems with the system than the term oligarchy.

A 'direct democracy' implies region-wide polling on policy, laws, etc., which is not the case in any GCR as far as I am aware. You got the self-selecting aspect correct, which is why oligarchy fits better. A self selecting group, more or less open depending upon the specific GCR, sets policy via offsite bureaucratic assembly (in whatever form).

I do not carry an imposed negative connotation with the term oligarchy as many seem to here. I prescribe to the standard definition which is, according to the Oxford Dictionary and most others: 'A small group of people having control of a country or organization'. If one considers a GCR analogous to a country or simply an organization, then it is very clear that having a self selecting minority group control the region is an oligarchy.
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Belschaft
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Postby Belschaft » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:17 am

Tancerlo wrote:Do you even know what the word facetious means?

No, I deliberately make use of vocabulary which I don't know the meaning of :roll:

I'm sorry, I meant it as high praise; your argument that TWP, alone among the GCR's, is a democracy was such a brilliant piece of comedy.
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