Thoughts on the end of my streak as delegate

[Guy]

First defenders aren't fun enough and are sucky at recruitment, then we're too chatty and easily bored.

Defenders have it easy and we're just a bunch of whiners, then it turns out that we're actually incompetent and should all quit.

We don't concentrate enough on regional growth, but we're neglecting our 'defending duties' for GCR 'careers'.

We're not open enough to newcomers, but our operational facilities are "too leaky".

What haven't I heard from the armchair folk over there, too cowardly to come play the tough game?

The bottom line is quite a simple fuck you. I don't know owe it to you to meet your impossible standards, or play the game differently for anyone. I don't need to quit my home region for "defenderdom's" sake. I shouldn't even have to explain to you that when the most dedicated defender generals, far better than I'll ever be, say "I've had enough of this shit" there is a serious imbalance.

Your criticisms are irrelevant.

[Victor Savage]

I do enjoy defending. Much in the adrenaline-fueled social way that I described many raiders enjoy raiding. I just prefer to get my jollies cleanly.

We don't get our"jollies off" on making natives suffer.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

First defenders aren't fun enough and are sucky at recruitment, then we're too chatty and easily bored.

Defenders have it easy and we're just a bunch of whiners, then it turns out that we're actually incompetent and should all quit.

We don't concentrate enough on regional growth, but we're neglecting our 'defending duties' for GCR 'careers'.

We're not open enough to newcomers, but our operational facilities are "too leaky".

What haven't I heard from the armchair folk over there, too cowardly to come play the tough game?

The bottom line is quite a simple fuck you. I don't know owe it to you to meet your impossible standards, or play the game differently for anyone. I don't need to quit my home region for "defenderdom's" sake. I shouldn't even have to explain to you that when the most dedicated defender generals, far better than I'll ever be, say "I've had enough of this shit" there is a serious imbalance.

Your criticisms are irrelevant.

Step One: Capitalize on raider-hating members of TRR to get recruits
Step Two: Get RRA partially active
Step Three: Do a few detags or intercept a few tags
Step Four: Post anything at all on the RMB to get folks interested.
Step Five: Use further inrrest to expand operations
Step Six: ???
Step Seven: Profit

[Kazmr]

I do enjoy defending. Much in the adrenaline-fueled social way that I described many raiders enjoy raiding. I just prefer to get my jollies cleanly.

We don't get our"jollies off" on making natives suffer.

Then why do it? Why not become like the Cat Burglers and not torment natives (and don't pull out BS that this never happens, youve seen RMBs, you've seen the posts in gameplay, it happens)? Clearly someone somewhere gets enjoyment out of it.

[Kazmr]

First defenders aren't fun enough and are sucky at recruitment, then we're too chatty and easily bored.

Defenders have it easy and we're just a bunch of whiners, then it turns out that we're actually incompetent and should all quit.

We don't concentrate enough on regional growth, but we're neglecting our 'defending duties' for GCR 'careers'.

We're not open enough to newcomers, but our operational facilities are "too leaky".

What haven't I heard from the armchair folk over there, too cowardly to come play the tough game?

The bottom line is quite a simple fuck you. I don't know owe it to you to meet your impossible standards, or play the game differently for anyone. I don't need to quit my home region for "defenderdom's" sake. I shouldn't even have to explain to you that when the most dedicated defender generals, far better than I'll ever be, say "I've had enough of this shit" there is a serious imbalance.

Your criticisms are irrelevant.

Step One: Capitalize on raider-hating members of TRR to get recruits
Step Two: Get RRA partially active
Step Three: Do a few detags or intercept a few tags
Step Four: Post anything at all on the RMB to get folks interested.
Step Five: Use further inrrest to expand operations
Step Six: ???
Step Seven: Profit

Lol, I'd like to see you try to build up a successful defender org if its as easy as you're making it out to be.

(sorry for the double post, on mobile)

[Land filled with People]

Step One: Capitalize on raider-hating members of TRR to get recruits
Step Two: Get RRA partially active
Step Three: Do a few detags or intercept a few tags
Step Four: Post anything at all on the RMB to get folks interested.
Step Five: Use further inrrest to expand operations
Step Six: ???
Step Seven: Profit

Genius! All this time we've been doing it all wrong!

Oh wait....

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Then why do it? Why not become like the Cat Burglers and not torment natives (and don't pull out BS that this never happens, youve seen RMBs, you've seen the posts in gameplay, it happens)? Clearly someone somewhere gets enjoyment out of it.

Never and not always are different things.

ON your second post - Maybe I will somedays. Ask me again in a few years when I'm bored with raiding

[Tano]

Kinda offtopic, but Cat Burglars should make a comeback

[Kazmr]

So then raiders do 'sometimes' torment natives for fun? Got it, I'll ignore Victor then

[Ryuki]

I don't know. The main reasons I raided was to face defenders, and beat lib attempts down. Refounding was more of a secondary thing, something I do not to spite natives but to show military prowess.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

So then raiders do 'sometimes' torment natives for fun? Got it, I'll ignore Victor then

That's a misinterpretation, and you know it. The statement was

Why not become like the Cat Burglers and not torment natives (and don't pull out BS that this never happens, youve seen RMBs, you've seen the posts in gameplay, it happens)?

Sometimes natives are "tormented." Sometimes they are not. I can name examples in both ways.


But, as a matter of fact, some do. We've never said *no* raiders enjoy raiding for reasons along those lines (Kurosaki comes to mind). We've been saying the majority do not, and people have been confirming that.

[Gest]

We don't get our"jollies off" on making natives suffer.

Then why do it? Why not become like the Cat Burglers

The Cat Burglars raided like they needed to apologize for raiding. What they did with one hand they wiped with the other.

and not torment natives

When did post suppression and changing the WFE become a torment? Can the natives not withstand the most vile and heinous act of replacing their WFE? Has the post suppression terrorized them? How ever will they manage against this onslaught of terror!

[Funkadelia]

I do enjoy defending. Much in the adrenaline-fueled social way that I described many raiders enjoy raiding. I just prefer to get my jollies cleanly.

We don't get our"jollies off" on making natives suffer.

If you didn't, you wouldn't do it.

Yet you continue...

[We Are Not The ATF]

We don't get our"jollies off" on making natives suffer.

If you didn't, you wouldn't do it.

Yet you continue...

Annoying natives isn't the thing that makes raiding fun, it's just a byproduct.

[Shadoke]

We don't get our"jollies off" on making natives suffer.

If you didn't, you wouldn't do it.

Yet you continue...

Uh huh, yep, just like defenders only do it for the morals right?

[Drop Your Pants]

Uh huh, yep, just like defenders only do it for the morals right?

In some form or another, all defenders do it for the morals. Some might be more fun based (like me) but even then there's still a moral hidden in there somewhere. It's not the Unibot Moral but all defenders (from my horribly long experience) have some morals. It's usually whats used as a recruitment.

[Shadoke]

Uh huh, yep, just like defenders only do it for the morals right?

In some form or another, all defenders do it for the morals. Some might be more fun based (like me) but even then there's still a moral hidden in there somewhere. It's not the Unibot Moral but all defenders (from my horribly long experience) have some morals. It's usually whats used as a recruitment.

Yes, and perhaps some raiders raid to piss off natives, but lets move past the stereotyping, please.

[Annihilators of Chan Island]

In the Japan regional message board, I posted my reason for raiding.

My answer is that people take this whole game too seriously. It's disturbing. People sit about, building these regions with 100s of embassies, virtual histories with enough lore to put the Old Testament to shame.

So every once in a while moving in, tearing down an embassy, cracking a joke about Sake and then leaving is reminding them that this is all code on a screen streamed from a server likely thousands of miles away. This virtual region people have built was always destined to change or fall as various region members quit NS and live their lives. Relax, lighten up and eat pot noodles.

That's my philosophical rationalization for raiding anyway. Now, here's some tea for while you think.

I think this is pretty relevant. OP clearly took their delegacy pretty seriously (though holy oh my- 8 years! Well done!) and got themselves very much attached to the fact that they held the delegacy. It's like they are the embodiment of what I am not too fond of- so I take a part in showing that nothing lasts forever.

But do think the challenge of keeping Forest happy for all the time I was delegate was far greater than the challenge of raiding Forest. So I have to ask, is it good for a game to make it easy to discourage a player like myself that has for a long time been a promoter of community in the game? I don’t have a technical solution I’m pushing to change anything, but that’s just the general feeling the raid has left with me.

If the whole of your NS friendships were depended on that delegacy streak, then I have some bad news. Friendships ought to harden with adversity. The people I get along with best are not the ones that I never got into trouble with- it's the ones who were there to help when somebody became too drunk at 2 in the morning, or the ones who were with me when we got hopelessly lost in the forest- those are the ones that I truly cherish.

So what's the NS version? Well, you can claim back the delegacy, the defenders are always there to help. You can found a separate region and have everyone pour in there (that was what the Atheist Empire did back when the Black Riders occupied them. It was during that occupation that TBR fell, and we reacted the same way, heading over to DEN to regroup).

I think the community I’m a part of and the friendships I built will keep me coming back to NS. At least I hope so. But I can tell you if I CTE in a year or two I wouldn’t have if my streak was still going.

Are you sure? You have the delegacy back again, so what's there to make you suddenly consider CTEing? The loss of that streak.... even though your community in Forest is basically unaffected by that raid? And in one or two year's time? Who knows what might happen then. Maybe you absolutely would have even with that streak. Just saying.

[Land filled with People]

Uh huh, yep, just like defenders only do it for the morals right?

What DYP said. And also, couldn't be doing it for the fun, that bird flew the cage long ago.


Let's keep the stereotypes when they're accurate. If you just wanted to raid places there's 6 warzones, all with delegates, two who have been in place for some time, and they have a decent number of endos. You can get the same 'thrills' with sleepers/raid chat/organising people/whatever, and you're playing with people who specifically want to be in the R/D/N game.

But you don't.

[Luxdonia]

Raiders make their own fun whilst boring the rest of us with their boring predictable raids.

@OP: I understand your pain as do 99% of NSers who deplore such pointless actions.

[Drop Your Pants]

And now its my turn to agree with Land

I spent 2 years in the warzones before entering R/D and honestly some of the hardest and most exciting battles i've ever participated in were there.

Yes, and perhaps some raiders raid to piss off natives, but lets move past the stereotyping, please.

No, lets actually look at the stereotype instead of trying to hide it under the rug. Forest was a target because of the 8 year delegacy. If it was a 10 day delegate it wouldn't have pulled such a crowd or attention. So what pulled the raiders to the region as a target? Wasn't the challenge, defenders aren't always on in numbers unless there's a lib. To me, it was the desire to annoy the native delegate by ending his spree. If raiders raid purely for fun then why not target a WZ as Land has mentioned.

[SevHawk]

Just a few points here, having read this thread.

*I don't know that the intent was to annoy the delegate.

*Interesting that Warzones are considered "OK" to raid because they were made that way, despite native communities having sprung up. Why is the acceptable target group limited to Warzones? How about other GCRs? Seems like a double standard.

*Also, I don't recall at the moment whether it was said that raiders get their enjoyment from, and play at the expense of other's fun, or if that was applied to GP as a whole. Don't Defenders play/win at the expense of Raiders' fun? Everyone has their own way to play. In my 11 years, I've played/tried nearly all of them.

*I'll tell my own story, somewhat related.

I was a delegate of a medium-big founderless UCR once. For over a year. A guardian of it for about 5 years. One day we got raided. I just happened to be out of town, and on my phone. I had a rudimentary knowledge of how the game worked, and evidently, I found out, had thwarted several raid attempts with passwording the region during my delegacy. That said, I didn't know about when my region updated. I had no idea of the finer points of the mechanics. I lived for 8 years in this game completely unaware as to the how of gameplay. I woke up and we had a new delegate. I started speaking via telegram to the raider delegate. I found out that this was a person behind the computer, to my great shock. Someone who actually was having fun...playing a game. I know. What a concept.

I decided I would join DEN as a result, and since those in DEN were also, for the most part, in TBH. I joined TBH and received my training there. I made some friends. Friends who, despite not knowing it, were really helping me through some rough times. TBH, especially 2012, is filled with fond memories for me. 2012 otherwise may have been quite different. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I didn't become a raider because I liked raiding. I joined because I found a home. I found some place to belong. I found a group of people who I am happy to call great friends.

That is why I switched to defending last year. That and roulette. (Insider.) My friends had gone and gotten busy. It wasn't the same, raiding with other groups. I found a new friend, and a new home (Hi, Xor, TEP). I met others. Guess what? There are cool people on both sides. I have friends in every facet of the game. I'm going to repeat, because some people have missed that point. This. is. a. game. I'm not using this, "it's just a game" thing to rationalize raiding as acceptable, so don't make that mistake. It also shouldn't be used as a way to say raiding isn't acceptable.

Maybe some of you are just playing roles on these forums. Maybe you are really playing the "good guy" or the "bad guy" and the ability to post on a forum makes you more brazen than I suspect you'd be in a face to face interaction. I largely avoid posting on these forums, but I regularly read them. I can't tell if you're making OOC posts, or IC posts as your chosen trope. I think the line blurs a little. Believe it or not, there can exist conflict without so much hostility. This goes for both sides. I know it's fun to play a part, but at the end of the day we're all people behind a screen. I think the general tone of this forum would be much more palatable should we pause to think about that for even a moment before making a post.

This got longer than I had intended, so I'm going to sign out for a while. In the words of Jerry Springer, take care of yourselves, and each other.

[Consular]

I'd just like to say Eluvatar's first post was excellent.

I think the attitude that raiders do what they do for the fun of the activity itself, and not to irritate those their actions affect, is incredibly callous. It's engaging in an action without any regard for the consequence. I also think it is a lie. However one tries to spin it I think the truth is that for many the thrill comes from defeating other players, from seizing someone else's home, not from pressing a button at the right time. And regardless of intention it is hard to hide from the fact that the consequences are destructive for others.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

In the Japan regional message board, I posted my reason for raiding.

My answer is that people take this whole game too seriously. It's disturbing. People sit about, building these regions with 100s of embassies, virtual histories with enough lore to put the Old Testament to shame.

So every once in a while moving in, tearing down an embassy, cracking a joke about Sake and then leaving is reminding them that this is all code on a screen streamed from a server likely thousands of miles away. This virtual region people have built was always destined to change or fall as various region members quit NS and live their lives. Relax, lighten up and eat pot noodles.

That's my philosophical rationalization for raiding anyway. Now, here's some tea for while you think.

I think this is pretty relevant. OP clearly took their delegacy pretty seriously (though holy oh my- 8 years! Well done!) and got themselves very much attached to the fact that they held the delegacy. It's like they are the embodiment of what I am not too fond of- so I take a part in showing that nothing lasts forever.

It's difficult to overstate how oppressive this reasoning is. How dare people take a part of the game you don't seriously?

But do think the challenge of keeping Forest happy for all the time I was delegate was far greater than the challenge of raiding Forest. So I have to ask, is it good for a game to make it easy to discourage a player like myself that has for a long time been a promoter of community in the game? I don’t have a technical solution I’m pushing to change anything, but that’s just the general feeling the raid has left with me.

If the whole of your NS friendships were depended on that delegacy streak, then I have some bad news. Friendships ought to harden with adversity. The people I get along with best are not the ones that I never got into trouble with- it's the ones who were there to help when somebody became too drunk at 2 in the morning, or the ones who were with me when we got hopelessly lost in the forest- those are the ones that I truly cherish.

Different communities are, well, different. Even in invader regions there are many nations who join them but do not get closely involved in the Gameplay active core. There are many degrees of participation, many forms of it, and many distributions of kinds of participant.

Resilience is certainly a prudent characteristic to have, but I've heard many complain that a game is not where they want to practice resilience against seeing their stuff destroyed. And why should they?

So what's the NS version? Well, you can claim back the delegacy, the defenders are always there to help. You can found a separate region and have everyone pour in there (that was what the Atheist Empire did back when the Black Riders occupied them. It was during that occupation that TBR fell, and we reacted the same way, heading over to DEN to regroup).

For many regional communities, changing regions could be enormously destructive. Particularly, I would imagine, for regions like "Japan," "Canada," or even "Forest." Furthermore, Forest already refounded their region! They did exactly the thing that has often been described as the opt-out. But they were invaded nonetheless, however briefly.

I've seen that happen in Lemuria, and let me tell you, in a small region even with a founder and even when it's fairly inactive that sort of thing can be a bit frustrating.

I think the community I’m a part of and the friendships I built will keep me coming back to NS. At least I hope so. But I can tell you if I CTE in a year or two I wouldn’t have if my streak was still going.

Are you sure? You have the delegacy back again, so what's there to make you suddenly consider CTEing? The loss of that streak.... even though your community in Forest is basically unaffected by that raid? And in one or two year's time? Who knows what might happen then. Maybe you absolutely would have even with that streak. Just saying.

If they did not CTE for eight years and counting, I would think they may know what they're talking about regarding whether they'd CTE in the next two.

[Bears Armed]

I do enjoy defending. Much in the adrenaline-fueled social way that I described many raiders enjoy raiding. I just prefer to get my jollies cleanly.

We don't get our"jollies off" on making natives suffer.

And yet whenever somebody suggests that the whole 'raiding/defending' sub-game should restrict itself to those regions that are willing to participate we can almost count on at least one 'big-name' raider to reply that it's no fun if there aren't natives upset by the raids...