The Black Hawks | Still Winning

[Devi Vytherin]

What exactly is the public debate intended to accomplish? Perhaps the desired outcome should be more thoroughly considered before discussion continues.

If a public debate isn't desired, and a private discussion got shut down out of hand, I wonder what options remain. TBH sitting down like good little boys and accepting the punishment they still haven't fully been explained?

[Tim Stark]

If that's the case, why do they want you to publish the reasoning/evidence, and why are you refusing? That's nonsensical. If they really had these embarrassing, reputation-destroying skeletons in their closet, they wouldn't be asking for you to publicly post them, and you wouldn't still be saying no.

Maybe TEP and TWP don't want to feed the Peanut Gallery even further? Maybe TEP and TWP need time to compile evidence? Maybe they just don't feel like it. If anything, I would be even more cautious to release anything now, either to TBH or to the public, because The Black Hawks (and you) have proven to be rather disingenuous and willing to publicize private discussions. They are sovereign regions, and can do what they desire. I can imagine that the peanut gallery harping on about this only reinforces their beliefs.

Again, no. You didn't say anything like "I'm in class, can we talk about this later?" You said "Talk to Cain" and then you left the chat. It's right there in the log for everyone to see. Cain then behaved extremely unprofessionally and undiplomatically in your absence, treating people who were just trying to get clarification for their blacklisting like dirt. Treating your friends like dirt, I might add. The Black Hawks aren't psychic. They had no way of knowing there would be opportunity to discuss this later when everything you said and did indicated otherwise.

She did not just say "Talk to Cain". Yuno clearly indicated that she was tired, and that she was passing off the negotiation to her Foreign Minister. Souls and Koth clearly came out the gate incredibly hostile, which seems more than justifiable for Cain to reply in like. Reading those logs, Cain was about as professional as anyone could be under that onslaught. It's certainly a stretch to claim that TBH were being treated like dirt, unless you've got a very delicate definition for what being treated like dirt would constitute. The Black Hawks aren't psychic, but I'd have assumed they were at least somewhat politically apt. It's very rare that groups stop talking entirely, especially over IC stuff. I imagine there would have been more opportunities.

The real party acting unprofessional and undiplomatic here are the ones leaking diplomatic talks to Gameplay. I don't know what they expect to happen from that, but I certainly wouldn't be interested in speaking to anyone who will turn around and leak everything said. I don't know what TBH was hoping to gain out of a petty leak, but hopefully they're happy.

TEP needs a break from you, if that's how flippantly you view making an enemy out of a region that was once a friend, and trampling on the rights of TEP's citizens.

No rights have been trampled on, unless you have evidence of a law being broken. Citizens of TEP who were also in TBH were told to make a choice. They did not indicate anything past that. However, I find it fucking hilarious that the person whinging about that is the same person who did the same exact thing in Osiris, on a far more extreme level, with a different group. I dunno Cormac, I think you're carrying a political agenda here.

Yuno is a phenomenal player, and she has seen The East Pacific grow to new heights and levels of prosperity. She did great work in TSP while she was there too, and in many other places. TEP is lucky to have a Delegate as passionate as her, who cares about the region and its security from outside influences so much. The South Pacific will proudly back our treatied ally, and the government set up under the Concordat will continue to have our loyal support.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I took one look at all the chatlogs you copied and pasted from my conversation and would like to clarify a few things.

Your conversation? You left it.

You randomly added my discord account to a group chat out of the blue, while I was in class. And then Rai started acting hostile and angry.

I was busy so I left it to the 2nd in Command of TEP. This isn't my Deputy, he's like my Replacement. You weren't dismissed for your concerns, but this was incredibly abrupt for you to suddenly put us in a recorded conversation and expect us to have answers ready. Some of us weren't even at our computers.

...What did you expect? No really, what did you expect from this situation? I can tell you some things I might have expected. There was plenty of "I can talk after I drive home" and other such comments there. If you were busy and wanted to do this later, I would have expected you to say exactly that. There was what I'd consider a surprisingly restrained amount of hostility and anger from our end. Did you expect something less than even that, given the "abrupt" hostility from TWP and TEP's end of suddenly blacklisting our region? Did you expect that it would be okay to *not* have answers ready about why you undertook a drastic diplomatic action before you posted it? Did you expect no one would question it?

dep·u·ty
ˈdepyədē/Submit
noun
a person whose immediate superior is a senior figure within an organization and who is empowered to act as a substitute for this superior.

And by definition, that is in fact a damn deputy.

No matter who it is, I'm not so arrogant as to say "this region is so beneath me it doesn't deserve an explanation for why I blacklisted them." I was busy and ticked off at the sudden being forced into a giant group of Hawk Councils demanding an explanation while recording the convo. Secondly, we hadn't publicized the reasons to preserve your international reputation. We simply blacklisted and moved on. Internally, we all know why. You can call this a courtesy move.

Except, you see, that is pretty much exactly what your "second in command" and "replacement" told us. He, in fact, was exactly so arrogant. Funny enough, we were pretty ticked off at suddenly being blacklisted, as well. Are you trying to act like you're the ones who got blindsided? Because I don't think that's going to work.

And then let me kill the last few sentences one bit at a time: You don't preserve someone's reputation by treating them worse than fascists and harassers and blacklisting them publicly without explanation. We, as quite evident in GP from the very start as well as in future interactions, do *not* know why. Nothing about these moves were at all courteous.

We didn't want to preserve ANY relations with you, but we also didn't want to slander you, and kept your embarrassing secrets internal. You are lucky we do not have the tendency to leak to outsiders, especially not to the public gameplay forum.

You have that backwards. Making claims without proof is slanderous. Proving reasoning and proof is not.

You didn't give anything a chance, not even EPSA's right to do as they please, or even more than a couple hours to talk it out (preferably with more professionalism) before leaking into the forums. Nor did you accept that we simply wanted to blacklist TBH. Listen, sometimes Regions enjoy blacklisting non-treatied regions, only to revoke said blacklist later. Sometimes, TEP simply needs a break from everything TBH-related. It doesn't even have to be OOC, it could be because your officials were disrespectful, provacative, or unprofessional to my officials. In-character reasons, reversable down the long run if improvements are made.

We didn't give anything a chance? We did not give anything a chance? Unbelievable. YOU did not try to talk anything out before going to the forums. "We simply wanted to" or "sometime we enjoy it" is not going to get you very far. Additional, even a "break" is a long way from a blacklist, and how in hell is anyone supposed to make any changes or improvements if you don't say anything about what needs to be changed or improved? Literally this entire time, we've asked you to break down, in detail, where you are coming from, so it can be addressed. We've been met with nothing but stone walls. How do you expect "improvements" to be made?

With this, you've ruined it.

Your post serves only as warning that if anyone has as falling out with The Black Hawks and they add you to a group DM to try to resolve it, leave ASAP and don't say anything, because it's going to get posted onto gameplay.

Yeah, all our fault. /s

Alternatively, have an honest conversation with us, and we can probably work things out, or at least work out why things are not going to work out.

Really, I don't think the warning being taken away from this concerns dealing with the TBH side of this situation.

[Cormactopia Prime]

What exactly is the public debate intended to accomplish? Perhaps the desired outcome should be more thoroughly considered before discussion continues.

That would have been good advice for TEP and TWP before TEP and TWP publicly blacklisted TBH yesterday and accused them of GCR subversion. Baselessly accused them, from the looks of things, since neither region can produce even the semblance of rational justification for it.

What no one is grasping from those logs is that the officials in question treated TBH the way they treated them because they regard user-created regions as beneath them. They don't need to answer any questions because who cares about a UCR? Nevermind that this particular UCR has worked with them many times. Other UCRs interested in relations with either of these regions should take note. You're expendable and irrelevant to them.

You say it like it's a bad thing

Considering most of the GCR subversion and couping I've seen in my time here has come internally or from other GCRs (like yours, for instance), and it has often required UCR allies to help bring it to an end, yes, I would consider it a bad thing. GCRs aren't any better or worse than any other region. They're just bigger, and only as a result of game mechanics rather than any merit. So I think this whole Feederite frenzy is silly and should stop.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

If that's the case, why do they want you to publish the reasoning/evidence, and why are you refusing? That's nonsensical. If they really had these embarrassing, reputation-destroying skeletons in their closet, they wouldn't be asking for you to publicly post them, and you wouldn't still be saying no.

Maybe TEP and TWP don't want to feed the Peanut Gallery even further? Maybe TEP and TWP need time to compile evidence? Maybe they just don't feel like it. If anything, I would be even more cautious to release anything now, either to TBH or to the public, because The Black Hawks (and you) have proven to be rather disingenuous and willing to publicize private discussions. They are sovereign regions, and can do what they desire. I can imagine that the peanut gallery harping on about this only reinforces their beliefs

Not feeding the peanut gallery would have been, oh I don't know, let me quote badger:

"The difference being here that it was made public instead of just being internal policy."

...telling us in private. Or you know, talked to us at all before making this move.

I sure know firsthand that the NSWF committee got the seven levels of hell for acting on a specific accusation before the evidence was compiled and ready to be released. Will the same standard apply here?

And right, we've been the disingenuous ones here. Yep.

Again, no. You didn't say anything like "I'm in class, can we talk about this later?" You said "Talk to Cain" and then you left the chat. It's right there in the log for everyone to see. Cain then behaved extremely unprofessionally and undiplomatically in your absence, treating people who were just trying to get clarification for their blacklisting like dirt. Treating your friends like dirt, I might add. The Black Hawks aren't psychic. They had no way of knowing there would be opportunity to discuss this later when everything you said and did indicated otherwise.

She did not just say "Talk to Cain". Yuno clearly indicated that she was tired, and that she was passing off the negotiation to her Foreign Minister. Souls and Koth clearly came out the gate incredibly hostile, which seems more than justifiable for Cain to reply in like. Reading those logs, Cain was about as professional as anyone could be under that onslaught. It's certainly a stretch to claim that TBH were being treated like dirt, unless you've got a very delicate definition for what being treated like dirt would constitute. The Black Hawks aren't psychic, but I'd have assumed they were at least somewhat politically apt. It's very rare that groups stop talking entirely, especially over IC stuff. I imagine there would have been more opportunities.

The real party acting unprofessional and undiplomatic here are the ones leaking diplomatic talks to Gameplay. I don't know what they expect to happen from that, but I certainly wouldn't be interested in speaking to anyone who will turn around and leak everything said.

I'll direct this at my prior post about our reasons for this unusual release.

Hell, it's claims like yours here that are *exactly* one of the factors in choosing to do so. You want to cast the conversation in a very different light than we have been. Well, it's there for anyone to read and decide themselves.

[Tim Stark]

I sure know firsthand that the NSWF committee got the seven levels of hell for acting on a specific accusation before the evidence was compiled and ready to be released. Will the same standard apply here?

I don't see why it should. The NSWF Clusterfuck was a completely OOC affair, grounded in OOC issues. This is a matter of IC Politics, with The Black Hawks having been blacklisted for subversive actions against The East Pacific and The West Pacific.

I haven't seen the evidence either, but I'm far more inclined to trust a close friend and treatied ally than I would be a self-proclaimed enemy of The South Pacific that has a history of attempting to manipulate regions and militaries.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I haven't seen the evidence either, but I'm far more inclined to trust a close friend and treatied ally than I would be a self-proclaimed enemy of The South Pacific that has a history of attempting to manipulate regions and militaries.

Your conflict of interest as a defender from a user-created region is precisely why you shouldn't even be involved in this. Isn't that Francoism 101?

[Devi Vytherin]

Nor did you accept that we simply wanted to blacklist TBH. Listen, sometimes Regions enjoy blacklisting non-treatied regions, only to revoke said blacklist later. Sometimes, TEP simply needs a break from everything TBH-related.

Since I didn't catch this earlier, I may as well comment on it now.
Hi. At the time of the announcement, I was a citizen of one of the two regions implementing the blacklist, as well as an enlisted member of both TWPAF and TBH.

if blacklisting a region is something a region 'simply enjoys doing', with the intent of 'possibly revoking it later', that's expecting those active in both regions to make a choice, then and there.
At the time of the announcement, there was no indication that anything would be revoked.
At the time of the announcement, the accusations of manipulation etc. certainly seemed hysterical enough that the chances of any such revocation seemed unlikely.
Given the content of the logs of the discussion had, there was no indication that any sort of negotiation or softening of terms would happen.

So how, exactly was anyone supposed to see the blacklisting as anything but a serious, permanent action?
I'm sorry to say this, but if you honestly believe that it would be taken any other way, TEP deserves a leader actually in touch with reality.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I sure know firsthand that the NSWF committee got the seven levels of hell for acting on a specific accusation before the evidence was compiled and ready to be released. Will the same standard apply here?

I don't see why it should. The NSWF Clusterfuck was a completely OOC affair, grounded in OOC issues. This is a matter of IC Politics, with The Black Hawks having been blacklisted for subversive actions against The East Pacific and The West Pacific.

I haven't seen the evidence either, but I'm far more inclined to trust a close friend and treatied ally than I would be a self-proclaimed enemy of The South Pacific that has a history of attempting to manipulate regions and militaries.

This is being treated like an OOC matter, and half the rumored reasons swirling around (which is all we have) have been OOC. Among other things, I've been told I'm apparently bullying people (the supposed bullied shot that one down though), and that harassment was occurring. Perhaps it would be clear that this was all over specific in game things if, you know, anyone would care to explain such?

Glad to see you admit you have no idea what we're talking about, and are talking out of your ass.

[Tim Stark]

I don't see why it should. The NSWF Clusterfuck was a completely OOC affair, grounded in OOC issues. This is a matter of IC Politics, with The Black Hawks having been blacklisted for subversive actions against The East Pacific and The West Pacific.

I haven't seen the evidence either, but I'm far more inclined to trust a close friend and treatied ally than I would be a self-proclaimed enemy of The South Pacific that has a history of attempting to manipulate regions and militaries.

This is being treated like an OOC matter, and half the rumored reasons swirling around (which is all we have) have been OOC. Among other things, I've been told I'm apparently bullying people (the supposed bullied shot that one down though), and that harassment was occurring. Perhaps it would be clear that this was all over specific in game things if, you know, anyone would care to explain such?

Glad to see you admit you have no idea what we're talking about, and are talking out of your ass.

Yes, but that isn't a matter of OOC bullying by my perception. It is TBH attempting to bully individuals within TEP into doing what they desire. While that can be called bullying, it's really just political pressuring under a different name rather than what one would actually imagine from OOC bullying. If you've also been involved in OOC stuff, then I'd be even more concerned, but my perception is that this is a political matter responding to you and your region expressing typical Userite behavior.

[Cormactopia Prime]

This is being treated like an OOC matter, and half the rumored reasons swirling around (which is all we have) have been OOC. Among other things, I've been told I'm apparently bullying people (the supposed bullied shot that one down though), and that harassment was occurring. Perhaps it would be clear that this was all over specific in game things if, you know, anyone would care to explain such?

Glad to see you admit you have no idea what we're talking about, and are talking out of your ass.

Yes, but that isn't a matter of OOC bullying by my perception. It is TBH attempting to bully individuals within TEP into doing what they desire. While that can be called bullying, it's really just political pressuring under a different name rather than what one would actually imagine from OOC bullying. If you've also been involved in OOC stuff, then I'd be even more concerned, but my perception is that this is a political matter responding to you and your region expressing typical Userite behavior.

But didn't you just say you hadn't seen the evidence and you don't know what the justification is? So aren't you as clueless as the rest of us?

All the more reason for TEP and TWP to put forward an actual rational justification for this. That would end the speculation and uncertainty.

[Tim Stark]

Yes, but that isn't a matter of OOC bullying by my perception. It is TBH attempting to bully individuals within TEP into doing what they desire. While that can be called bullying, it's really just political pressuring under a different name rather than what one would actually imagine from OOC bullying. If you've also been involved in OOC stuff, then I'd be even more concerned, but my perception is that this is a political matter responding to you and your region expressing typical Userite behavior.

But didn't you just say you hadn't seen the evidence and you don't know what the justification is? So aren't you as clueless as the rest of us?

I'm just extrapolating from what has been said by TEP and TWP. The South Pacific trusts the judgement of our ally TEP on this matter.

[Cormactopia Prime]

But didn't you just say you hadn't seen the evidence and you don't know what the justification is? So aren't you as clueless as the rest of us?

I'm just extrapolating from what has been said by TEP and TWP. The South Pacific trusts the judgement of our ally TEP on this matter.

Good Lord, why? Need I remind you what TEP's Delegate said just a little while ago:

Listen, sometimes Regions enjoy blacklisting non-treatied regions, only to revoke said blacklist later. Sometimes, TEP simply needs a break from everything TBH-related.

That's the judgment you trust?

[Sarakart]

I don't trust the judgement of anyone in diplomacy without available evidence, because it's diplomacy, not a buddy's club. If you're going to make a public statement with such severe consequences, you should probably show why you did so- even a more specific thing than a vague statement of TBH culpability without sharing logs for all to see would be fine.

It seems to me that the prudent thing woudl have been to approach TBH about the situation, and if they were intransigent about the evidence, to simply post that they had been uninterested in apologizing for the situation. As it is, even if it is that Souls is pretending not to know anything- no one else knows anything else either.

To be sure, it is always a region's prerogative to do as it likes. But that applies to anything- tomorrow the foreign ministry of TBH could post that they think everyone in GP is the big dumb. It just wouldn't impress very well upon them, and this situation doesn't impress very well on TEP & TWP- regardless of the evidence, which was evidently serious enough to warrant this cutting of relations.

[Tim Stark]

I'm just extrapolating from what has been said by TEP and TWP. The South Pacific trusts the judgement of our ally TEP on this matter.

Good Lord, why? Need I remind you what TEP's Delegate said just a little while ago:

Listen, sometimes Regions enjoy blacklisting non-treatied regions, only to revoke said blacklist later. Sometimes, TEP simply needs a break from everything TBH-related.

That's the judgment you trust?

Yes. I know it's shocking to believe, but I put a lot more stock into what's said between allies off-site than I do in the shit we all say on the Gameplay forum. Most of the shit here is either pot-stirring, attention-grabbing, or just salt-mining.

[Sarakart]

Good Lord, why? Need I remind you what TEP's Delegate said just a little while ago:


That's the judgment you trust?

Yes. I know it's shocking to believe, but I put a lot more stock into what's said between allies off-site than I do in the shit we all say on the Gameplay forum. Most of the shit here is either pot-stirring, attention-grabbing, or just salt-mining.

That more or less sums up international diplomacy, yes

[Cormactopia Prime]

Good Lord, why? Need I remind you what TEP's Delegate said just a little while ago:


That's the judgment you trust?

Yes. I know it's shocking to believe, but I put a lot more stock into what's said between allies off-site than I do in the shit we all say on the Gameplay forum. Most of the shit here is either pot-stirring, attention-grabbing, or just salt-mining.

So TEP has had a conversation with its allies in TSP about this, but not TBH which is the target of the blacklisting? Is that what you're saying?

I wonder if TEP has bothered to have a conversation with its ally Osiris about why Osiris' root administrator and some of its citizens are blacklisted. Or does the courtesy of conversations with allies apply only to TSP and TRR these days? Hmm.

[Plagentine]

Good Lord, why? Need I remind you what TEP's Delegate said just a little while ago:


That's the judgment you trust?

Yes. I know it's shocking to believe, but I put a lot more stock into what's said between allies off-site than I do in the shit we all say on the Gameplay forum. Most of the shit here is either pot-stirring, attention-grabbing, or just salt-mining.

Thanks for adding to the pile.

[Imkihca]

I sure know firsthand that the NSWF committee got the seven levels of hell for acting on a specific accusation before the evidence was compiled and ready to be released. Will the same standard apply here?

You mean the thing I still haven't been shown evidence for and you personally have completely ignored me when I've tried to speak to you about it?

[Tim Stark]

Yes. I know it's shocking to believe, but I put a lot more stock into what's said between allies off-site than I do in the shit we all say on the Gameplay forum. Most of the shit here is either pot-stirring, attention-grabbing, or just salt-mining.

So TEP has had a conversation with its allies in TSP about this, but not TBH which is the target of the blacklisting? Is that what you're saying?

I wonder if TEP has bothered to have a conversation with its ally Osiris about why Osiris' root administrator and some of its citizens are blacklisted. Or does the courtesy of conversations with allies apply only to TSP and TRR these days? Hmm.

Nope, we haven't chatted on the subject. I'd just put a lot more stock into private chats with a treatied ally than I would into Gameplay chatter. Anyways, as said, The South Pacific trusts The East Pacific's judgement.

[Cormactopia Prime]

So TEP has had a conversation with its allies in TSP about this, but not TBH which is the target of the blacklisting? Is that what you're saying?

I wonder if TEP has bothered to have a conversation with its ally Osiris about why Osiris' root administrator and some of its citizens are blacklisted. Or does the courtesy of conversations with allies apply only to TSP and TRR these days? Hmm.

Nope, we haven't chatted on the subject. I'd just put a lot more stock into private chats with a treatied ally than I would into Gameplay chatter. Anyways, as said, The South Pacific trusts The East Pacific's judgement.

But if you haven't chatted, then how does putting more stock in off-site conversations between allies make any sense in response to me highlighting one of Yuno's posts to demonstrate that you shouldn't trust TEP's judgment? If you haven't discussed this off-site, then you only have that post to go on. So none of that adds up at all. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you have discussed this with TEP, but they can't be bothered to discuss it with others. Only their new best friends in TSP and maybe the other participants in this weird faux Francoist axis that is being created.

[Tim Stark]

Nope, we haven't chatted on the subject. I'd just put a lot more stock into private chats with a treatied ally than I would into Gameplay chatter. Anyways, as said, The South Pacific trusts The East Pacific's judgement.

But if you haven't chatted, then how does putting more stock in off-site conversations between allies make any sense in response to me highlighting one of Yuno's posts to demonstrate that you shouldn't trust TEP's judgment? If you haven't discussed this off-site, then you only have that post to go on. So none of that adds up at all. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you have discussed this with TEP, but they can't be bothered to discuss it with others. Only their new best friends in TSP and maybe the other participants in this weird faux Francoist axis that is being created.

If you want to jump to such conclusions, feel free. The South Pacific has not spoken with The East Pacific regarding this matter via any FA avenues. Sorry that the truth doesn't fit your overblown conspiracy narrative.

Perhaps you and I are interpreting different things from TEP's statements and posts, and perhaps I'm not jumping to as extreme conclusions and overblown posts as you.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

It seems to me that the prudent thing woudl have been to approach TBH about the situation, and if they were intransigent about the evidence, to simply post that they had been uninterested in apologizing for the situation. As it is, even if it is that Souls is pretending not to know anything- no one else knows anything else either.

And the fact is, we have wanted to talk. We certainly have not denied either of the only two things raised - just asked serious questions about their relevance, for various reasons, as can be seen.

Hell, while I’m at it - I summarize one thing with TWP in there and badger agrees it’s fair. The TEP one is danced around a bit more. So let me describe that as well.

It was around Christmas. I was in a very bad mood. Family shits, friends shit, NSWF shit, drama 24/7 for a week or two ongoing, during all of which I’d been sleeping on a chair in the living room. EPSA does something that had not done in a very long time, and while indicating they were leaning more towards raiding at the time, joining in on a lib of a TBH op. We weren’t too happy and felt a little blindsided, and in the end I fired off a markedly less than diplomatic pair of telegrams of protest to whoever was listed on the top of the region page as an FA person. I was an ass in that telegram. TEP sent Greyghost, at the time at least the deputy FA minister, to converse with me about the matter. She very rightfully gave me a solid dressing down for being dick, in extreme details. At the end, she graciously noted that I did, actually, have a point under all the dickery, and apologized on behalf the region for their handling of the situation. We ended with her noting that we should watch our boundaries and tone, and next time anything even resembling a warning about the possibility of a threat would go over even worse. It’s advice that I, and we, took to heart. The lead up to that interaction was not at all my proudest moment, but it was a learning moment.

...That was months ago. About three. It doesn’t shine the greatest on us for sure, but it was a bump in the road that, like all relationships have, that all signs pointed to being far behind us. It was dealt with, closed, and we very much backed off since, as far as I know. Certainly no concerns have been raised with us otherwise. And, even if they’re still holding a grudge over it, it seems a stretch from “subversion.” It all occurred through diplomatic channels. It’s not like we planted people in the region or some shit. There was an issue, with some spice on both sides, I was over aggressive in handling it, but it worked out, and was learned from for the future and to present. So we honestly don’t understand why this is still an issue, or this much of an issue, and TEP would have no discussion on the matter. Is there more than this being hidden from everyone? Is this it? If this is it, why is it coming up again out of nowhere? What do you want from us? What happened?

We wanted to talk things out. We wanted to resolve things if possible, or at least learn what we’ve apparently done wrong. We want to know why no concerns about whatever has happened have been raised with us. We thought we were on even keel with both regions at present, well removed from turbulence of the past, and were shocked by this move made without any indications. Literally asking each other if it was real or another joke shocked.

Please, talk to people. If this is the “embarrassment” you’re saving us from or whatever, well, now it’s out on the table.

[Raionitu]

You randomly added my discord account to a group chat out of the blue, while I was in class. And then Rai started acting hostile and angry.

Only thing I said at first was that you had made yourself part of this by signing it, in response to Cain telling us to leave you out of it.
I didn't approach hostile until after:
Cain - Today at 3:59 PM
Did you really expect us to sit back and let you fire warning shots at TEP?
Or, be a jackass to our members?
So, y'know, AFTER Cain called us jackasses. Don't know where you think you're getting off trying to pin the anger or hostility on me

I was busy so I left it to the 2nd in Command of TEP. This isn't my Deputy, he's like my Replacement. You weren't dismissed for your concerns, but this was incredibly abrupt for you to suddenly put us in a recorded conversation and expect us to have answers ready. Some of us weren't even at our computers.

Again, you signed it, so there is some expectation of you being willing to talk about it after making that much of a blind side. "Hey, I'm not at my computer" "Hey, I'm heading to sleep give me till tomorrow to get back to you when I can think clearly" "Hey, give us some time to put an answer together". Not cut and run.
Cain - Today at 4:25 PM
Right yeah, you settled something without ever speaking to Yuno or I about it.. the DELEGATE and the MOFA.
Your MOFA second in command whatever implied that if we didn't specifically talk to you at least once, nothing should be considered as being worth anything.

No matter who it is, I'm not so arrogant as to say "this region is so beneath me it doesn't deserve an explanation for why I blacklisted them." I was busy and ticked off at the sudden being forced into a giant group of Hawk Councils demanding an explanation while recording the convo. Secondly, we hadn't publicized the reasons to preserve your international reputation. We simply blacklisted and moved on. Internally, we all know why. You can call this a courtesy move.

We didn't want to preserve ANY relations with you, but we also didn't want to slander you, and kept your embarrassing secrets internal. You are lucky we do not have the tendency to leak to outsiders, especially not to the public gameplay forum.

Because we don't get to be ticked off when we're busy and get forced to deal with a dual blacklist from long standing allies? Also, slander: making false and damaging statements about someone. You accused us of subversion in public, with no proof. That's a lot closer to slander than giving evidence showing it isn't false. And as for "internally we all know why", then why is it that in official servers of TWP and TEP members are asking why we were blacklisted, and basically being put on hold, instead of given an answer?

You didn't give anything a chance, not even EPSA's right to do as they please, or even more than a couple hours to talk it out (preferably with more professionalism) before leaking into the forums. Nor did you accept that we simply wanted to blacklist TBH.

You guys are the ones who never contacted us or tried to give us a chance. There was no point giving more than the time we gave to talk it out because our attempt was meet with insults, name calling, and after a very short time, getting completely ignored and shut out. It was SO obvious that y'all wanted more diplomacy.

Listen, sometimes Regions enjoy blacklisting non-treatied regions, only to revoke said blacklist later. Sometimes, TEP simply needs a break from everything TBH-related. It doesn't even have to be OOC, it could be because your officials were disrespectful, provacative, or unprofessional to my officials. In-character reasons, reversable down the long run if improvements are made.

If you enjoy randomly blacklisting allies, you are not the person I used to think you were. And needing a break from TBH related can mean not working with us, without accusing us of subversion and banning cross membership. Right here, you are singing a completely different tune than anywhere else, and basically saying you will blacklist regions and treat them like they harbor sexual harassers without reason because, in your words, you enjoy it.

With this, you've ruined it.

Yes, clearly were ruined the ongoing diplomatic sessions and good relations we have with a region that blacklisted us. Clearly, this was us.

Your post serves only as warning that if anyone has as falling out with The Black Hawks and they add you to a group DM to try to resolve it, leave ASAP and don't say anything, because it's going to get posted onto gameplay.

Or, y'know, actually try to solve it. Either leave or try to solve it, not sit there, insult us, and be obstinate like TEP and TWP were.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

We’re not perfect, becuase no one is, but we’re universally willing to talk about what any issue is and try to reach a resolution with thorough reasoning behind it, understood by all involved, as long as you’re willing to put a little time in and come to us with your issue.