The Black Hawks | Still Winning

[Unibot III]

Is Unibot just trying to make a subtle humblebrag?

There ain't nothing subtle or humble about me. I just think this invasion is a pathetic, long-winded wet raspberry.

[Blood Wine]

Unibot at the moment

[RiderSyl]

There's no way you would praise an invasion while defenders are on the losing end of it, Unibot. The only thing the invaders could have done to earn your praise would have been something that was self-defeating, and you would only be praising it to try to enforce the behavior.

"You're using too many pilers, be more daring!" is never going to work because the agenda behind it is too obvious.

Stop. Come up with better material.

[Tom]

Is Unibot just trying to make a subtle humblebrag?

There ain't nothing subtle or humble about me. I just think this invasion is a pathetic, long-winded wet raspberry.

Cool. Thanks for sharing.

[Unibot III]

There's no way you would praise an invasion while defenders are on the losing end of it, Unibot. The only thing the invaders could have done to earn your praise would have been something that was self-defeating, and you would only be praising it to try to enforce the behavior.

That's not true, I've told many invaders over the years I've thought they've pulled off an invasion well. But this is a typical "grab and pile" raid.

I do think you're right that it's up to players to self-enforce piling. And the way to do that is by not giving credit to people who don't earn it. Hiding away with a hundred people huddled around you ain't deserving of anyone's respect.

It's not a fight. It's just theater.

"You're using too many pilers, be more daring!" is never going to work because the agenda behind it is too obvious.

It's working just fine. I'm really kind of enjoying watching them try to deny being afraid.

[Plagentine]

Is Unibot just trying to make a subtle humblebrag?

There ain't nothing subtle or humble about me. I just think this invasion is a pathetic, long-winded wet raspberry.

Nah man, you just lost. Admit defeat and move on, better luck next time o7

[Conservative Values]

I will never understand the whining about there being too many pilers. One side outnumbered the other fair and square. Do fendas stop letting people into the lib chat after they reach a certain number of people online just so it would be a fair challenge for us? Is Unibot just trying to make a subtle humblebrag?

I don't have a dog in the fight - but in the spirit of calling out blatant falsehoods as a principle: Even if defenders outnumbered you by double you'd still be able to win by piling. If it was just about who had better numbers / speed / etc that would be a fair fight between defenders and raiders. Counting "there are more of us able to be online in the 11:59:59 before the update than you will have during the 00:00:01 that a region updates as "outnumbering" is obviously false on its face. In the same sense that you couldn't hit a region under the same endorsement gap unless you had inactive lead and more time to build a pile.

The issue here of course is that raiders are not playing against defenders. They're playing against the natives while defenders do not have an opportunity to play. The fundamental problem with how R/N is that natives (N) don't want to play the game at all - and the people who do want to play the game always ensure that they can't lose or even be played against. The fundamental problem with R/D is that defenders have nothing to do if raiders aren't trying to play with them. It seems understandable a defender would be frustrated that this massive undertaking really doesn't involve them much at all - since they play the game specifically to be involved with things such as this.

[Plagentine]

I will never understand the whining about there being too many pilers. One side outnumbered the other fair and square. Do fendas stop letting people into the lib chat after they reach a certain number of people online just so it would be a fair challenge for us? Is Unibot just trying to make a subtle humblebrag?

I don't have a dog in the fight - but in the spirit of calling out blatant falsehoods as a principle: Even if defenders outnumbered you by double you'd still be able to win by piling. If it was just about who had better numbers / speed / etc that would be a fair fight between defenders and raiders. Counting "there are more of us able to be online in the 11:59:59 before the update than you will have during the 00:00:01 that a region updates as "outnumbering" is obviously false on its face. In the same sense that you couldn't hit a region under the same endorsement gap unless you had inactive lead and more time to build a pile.

The issue here of course is that raiders are not playing against defenders. They're playing against the natives while defenders do not have an opportunity to play. The fundamental problem with how R/N is that natives (N) don't want to play the game at all - and the people who do want to play the game always ensure that they can't lose or even be played against. The fundamental problem with R/D is that defenders have nothing to do if raiders aren't trying to play with them. It seems understandable a defender would be frustrated that this massive undertaking really doesn't involve them much at all - since they play the game specifically to be involved with things such as this.

Considering defenders have had a pretty good year and managed to fight on fair grounds with raiders quite well, i really don't see any reason for complaint right now. Yeah, it's easier to get pilers than updaters, but you can also prevent raids via infiltration and intercepting the jump(which has happened and will happen). It just so happens this time the raid was not detected and raiders managed to pile with great haste. I also don't see why raiders should intentionally hold themselves back when their entire intention is to raid, not have an equal ground sparing match with the fendas. Fendas make you more alert and make the game more fun because you have to organize better, but there doesn't have to be a horde of them standing over your shoulder every update for the game to be enjoyable.

[Unibot III]

There ain't nothing subtle or humble about me. I just think this invasion is a pathetic, long-winded wet raspberry.

Nah man, you just lost. Admit defeat and move on, better luck next time o7

First of all, I'm not even allowed to kick your ass. So thank your lucky stars, kid - 'cause after two years of being held back, there's nothing more I'd enjoy than taking the smugness out of your face. The difference between a defender and an invader is defenders aren't afraid of taking hits and they don't back down. Now go home, wave your flag over Westphalia for a fortnight, and pretend your miserable pile raid is a thing.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Maybe you misunderstood me.

Not even in the slightest. The last time a Hawk had the bright idea of trying to run a liberation without a hundred pilers corralling around him, we booted his ass so hard he was speaking Italian by the time we were done with him. And your posse hasn't recovered an ounce of confidence since. You'd be gutted like a fish without your pilers and you know it. You've admitted it.

You wanna be the greatest, show me you're the greatest. Otherwise you're just Joe Frazier making fart noises in a microphone.

Why the hell would we dare all of defending to protect on of their own without taking appropriate measures to deal with it?

Respect. Glory. Reputation. Guts. A general sense of accomplishment. I could go on, but you probably get the idea.

You're really on about a crook of nonsense here, mate. I know you're a dinosaur, but I didn't realize you were from an alternate timeline where the very idea of pilers is antithetical to a good operation. Would you build a castle with only a garrison, and no walls?

[Panzer Vier]

You wanna be the greatest, show me you're the greatest.

They've certainly proven that they're pretty great at provoking rants about how raids were much better in the good old days, when people deliberately sabotaged their occupations

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I will never understand the whining about there being too many pilers. One side outnumbered the other fair and square. Do fendas stop letting people into the lib chat after they reach a certain number of people online just so it would be a fair challenge for us? Is Unibot just trying to make a subtle humblebrag?

I don't have a dog in the fight - but in the spirit of calling out blatant falsehoods as a principle: Even if defenders outnumbered you by double you'd still be able to win by piling. If it was just about who had better numbers / speed / etc that would be a fair fight between defenders and raiders. Counting "there are more of us able to be online in the 11:59:59 before the update than you will have during the 00:00:01 that a region updates as "outnumbering" is obviously false on its face. In the same sense that you couldn't hit a region under the same endorsement gap unless you had inactive lead and more time to build a pile.

The issue here of course is that raiders are not playing against defenders. They're playing against the natives while defenders do not have an opportunity to play. The fundamental problem with how R/N is that natives (N) don't want to play the game at all - and the people who do want to play the game always ensure that they can't lose or even be played against. The fundamental problem with R/D is that defenders have nothing to do if raiders aren't trying to play with them. It seems understandable a defender would be frustrated that this massive undertaking really doesn't involve them much at all - since they play the game specifically to be involved with things such as this.

A couple things hereL

- Quite a few raids have been lost recently in the first day or two because piles did not happen fast enough, and defenders did indeed show up with 30 people to jump. If we didn't learn to put increasing emphasis on early-game overkill, after losing multiple operations for lack thereof, we'd be idiots.

-Yes, defenders need more updaters than raiders to engage in a liberation. This is not necessarily easy, but I think it's silly to say it is inherently unbalanced. There is more general support for their cause than ours, and ergo a larger pool to recruit from. It also makes logical sense, in a way - a small force holding a defensive structure can indeed repel a much larger force to a point. There are other siege tactics that may be used in addition to throwing men at the walls.

-In this case, we *are* "playing against defenders." Westphalia is a defender region, part of a defender alliance containing, eh, 500, 600ish nations across a dozen regions? While that does not mean everyone there is a defender, it does mean that this is indeed engaging the enemy head-on. It involves them to the core.

[Scrapper 142]

Sadly, I prefer MSG over salt.

But thanks for keeping our thread at the very top. It's soooooo annoying to scroll down.

[Reploid Productions]

First of all, I'm not even allowed to kick your ass. So thank your lucky stars, kid - 'cause after two years of being held back, there's nothing more I'd enjoy than taking the smugness out of your face.

Maybe a liiiiiittle less of the could-be-construed-as-threats flavor smacktalk plz? I'd rather not need to go track down somebody who hasn't commented on the invasion to give it a looking over if it can be avoided. And I know you're a most capably-equipped wordsmith to call 'em on their pile tactics and argue their motivations and what they've accomplished with the raid without wandering into 'making-the-mod-get-antsy' territory.

(Obviously, since I commented on the invasion, any moderation reports pertaining to the thread I will pass off to someone else to avoid any potential appearance of conflict of interest or bias.)

[Plagentine]

Nah man, you just lost. Admit defeat and move on, better luck next time o7

First of all, I'm not even allowed to kick your ass. So thank your lucky stars, kid - 'cause after two years of being held back, there's nothing more I'd enjoy than taking the smugness out of your face. The difference between a defender and an invader is defenders aren't afraid of taking hits and they don't back down. Now go home, wave your flag over Westphalia for a fortnight, and pretend your miserable pile raid is a thing.

I think instead of the stars I'll thank my fellow raiders for showing up in a number so great they've made you shake the earth with your roars of bitterness.

[Kanglia]

-In this case, we *are* "playing against defenders." Westphalia is a defender region, part of a defender alliance containing, eh, 500, 600ish nations across a dozen regions? While that does not mean everyone there is a defender, it does mean that this is indeed engaging the enemy head-on. It involves them to the core.

Souls, I don't know if you didn't read what I said, but just in case you didn't, I'll reiterate it. FORGE does not exist anymore. Therefore, no, you did not engage your enemy head on. Westphalia hasn't even provided numbers for a simple detag in half a year, so calling them "defender" is beyond a stretch imo.

[Fauxia]

-In this case, we *are* "playing against defenders." Westphalia is a defender region, part of a defender alliance containing, eh, 500, 600ish nations across a dozen regions? While that does not mean everyone there is a defender, it does mean that this is indeed engaging the enemy head-on. It involves them to the core.

Souls, I don't know if you didn't read what I said, but just in case you didn't, I'll reiterate it. FORGE does not exist anymore. Therefore, no, you did not engage your enemy head on. Westphalia hasn't even provided numbers for a simple detag in half a year, so calling them "defender" is beyond a stretch imo.

I think they were a member of FORGE’s successor, SWORD.

I agree, though. I’ve never heard of them updating or even piling before

[The Noble Thatcherites]

-In this case, we *are* "playing against defenders." Westphalia is a defender region, part of a defender alliance containing, eh, 500, 600ish nations across a dozen regions? While that does not mean everyone there is a defender, it does mean that this is indeed engaging the enemy head-on. It involves them to the core.

Souls, I don't know if you didn't read what I said, but just in case you didn't, I'll reiterate it. FORGE does not exist anymore. Therefore, no, you did not engage your enemy head on. Westphalia hasn't even provided numbers for a simple detag in half a year, so calling them "defender" is beyond a stretch imo.

^ What Kanglia said.

Although SWORD now replaces it, FORGE is sadly gone.

[Conservative Values]

- Quite a few raids have been lost recently in the first day or two because piles did not happen fast enough, and defenders did indeed show up with 30 people to jump. If we didn't learn to put increasing emphasis on early-game overkill, after losing multiple operations for lack thereof, we'd be idiots.

I could see and believe that. But then again - that's exactly what we're discussing. The massive difference between 30 and (*checks*) 80.

But I also agree with you - if you held back from doing all you could do to win just so that it was competitive then that's pretty lame too. The lack of balance just makes it lame.

-Yes, defenders need more updaters than raiders to engage in a liberation. This is not necessarily easy, but I think it's silly to say it is inherently unbalanced. There is more general support for their cause than ours, and ergo a larger pool to recruit from. It also makes logical sense, in a way - a small force holding a defensive structure can indeed repel a much larger force to a point. There are other siege tactics that may be used in addition to throwing men at the walls.

It doesn't make sense. An 80 person liberation force is not going to happen. It hasn't happened in the decade I've been around, it didn't happen many times before that, and it isn't going to become more possible in the future. You know that is true just as much as I do.

I like you Souls, but the whole "It's difficult but doable" attitude is just dishonest. It isn't. You played the game-over-before-most-people-heard-game-on card. Which is fine - because even if you didn't it isn't much of competition if one side isn't playing his or her best cards. But it is pretty lame that there is a card to which there is no good response.

-In this case, we *are* "playing against defenders." Westphalia is a defender region, part of a defender alliance containing, eh, 500, 600ish nations across a dozen regions? While that does not mean everyone there is a defender, it does mean that this is indeed engaging the enemy head-on. It involves them to the core.

Meh. If you twist what I meant a bit I suppose you could make that correct. And you are probably aware of much more defending activity out of there then I am I suppose. I hadn't ever heard of them - though I had heard of this region numerous times it was never in connection with defending.

My point "not playing against defenders" was really though that there is no way to actively respond to what you have done. You raided a region. It was an impressive raid. Now you're occupying the region, but it isn't an interesting occupation at all. Which kind of puts a damper on the whole thing.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

-In this case, we *are* "playing against defenders." Westphalia is a defender region, part of a defender alliance containing, eh, 500, 600ish nations across a dozen regions? While that does not mean everyone there is a defender, it does mean that this is indeed engaging the enemy head-on. It involves them to the core.

Souls, I don't know if you didn't read what I said, but just in case you didn't, I'll reiterate it. FORGE does not exist anymore. Therefore, no, you did not engage your enemy head on. Westphalia hasn't even provided numbers for a simple detag in half a year, so calling them "defender" is beyond a stretch imo.

As others, said, SWORD replaced it with functionally similar membership.



Westphalia was proud in their proclamation of SWORD membership, and recruitment for it.

SWORD has been fairly active in defenses. By their own account: https://swordns.icyboards.net/showthread.php?tid=16

As a member of SWORD (and indeed, FORGE before it), Westphalia is a region with strong and publicly proclaimed defender ties. Hence, the challenge both here and in the WFE, for SWORD to protect their own.

[Kurnugia]

I will never understand the whining about there being too many pilers. One side outnumbered the other fair and square. Do fendas stop letting people into the lib chat after they reach a certain number of people online just so it would be a fair challenge for us? Is Unibot just trying to make a subtle humblebrag?

I think it has a lot do with raiders having the momentum. An occupation is easier to organize than a lib.

But meh I don't really care. For the region or the lib vs. occupation.

Edit: Actually they technically did raid a defender. The region is part of SWORD. https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=912539 But then I never heard of westphalia until now.

Edit 2: Ooof didn't saw soul's comment

[Galiantus III]

But I also agree with you - if you held back from doing all you could do to win just so that it was competitive then that's pretty lame too. The lack of balance just makes it lame.

An 80 person liberation force is not going to happen. It hasn't happened in the decade I've been around, it didn't happen many times before that, and it isn't going to become more possible in the future. You know that is true just as much as I do.

I like you Souls, but the whole "It's difficult but doable" attitude is just dishonest. It isn't. You played the game-over-before-most-people-heard-game-on card. Which is fine - because even if you didn't it isn't much of competition if one side isn't playing his or her best cards. But it is pretty lame that there is a card to which there is no good response.

You raided a region. It was an impressive raid. Now you're occupying the region, but it isn't an interesting occupation at all. Which kind of puts a damper on the whole thing.

This. All of this. If there's no practical response to piling, then it's just a numbers game. I don't blame raiders for using every advantage they have to win, but it's not a fair system if defenders can't do anything about it.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

We'd be stupid to challenge all of defending to save one of their own

Challenge! Hah. This isn't a challenge. It's the same, sad 'na-na-na-na' that the Hawks have become famous for. You have to get in the ring first to gain people's respect. You guys couldn't hold onto a region if your lives depended on it. Your leads probably don't even know where the banjection button is anymore.

There is no ring available to fight in that manner anymore. When the game has a hard cap of 1 ejection per second regionwide, and defenders will move in with little more than a 3-5 second gap, the middle ground where it's possible for either raiders or defenders to prevail based on the skill of the occupying delegate almost never comes into play. I'd love to see that middle ground get much wider again so that the piles don't need to be so big, but then we need the ejection cap to go away, and admins have said they won't do it because apparently people just use scripts for that now.

Mind you- with this specific target, there isn't the slightest desire to give the target a fair chance.

[Guy]

I mean, if the end-goal is a lengthy occupation, then yes, piling can achieve that goal.

The issue defenders have with piling is that it’s essentially a ‘game over’ scenario. While a pile can continue getting bigger and bigger, there’s a limit to how many troops either side can get in a single update. Keep in mind this operation, I imagine planned at least a week in advance, and only ~30 invaders showed up for the initial jump?

Many in TBH used to see the advantage of not piling a region to ridiculous levels, and facing the challenge of a potential liberation attempt. But that’s up to you, I guess. Another way in which game mechanics aren’t ideal.

[Unibot III]

First of all, I'm not even allowed to kick your ass. So thank your lucky stars, kid - 'cause after two years of being held back, there's nothing more I'd enjoy than taking the smugness out of your face. The difference between a defender and an invader is defenders aren't afraid of taking hits and they don't back down. Now go home, wave your flag over Westphalia for a fortnight, and pretend your miserable pile raid is a thing.

I think instead of the stars I'll thank my fellow raiders for showing up in a number so great

I count 45 currently. 45 defenders which I would need to recruit, independent of defenders' current numbers. (Assuming one of your backups isn't a spy.) Nothing about that number intimidates me to the extent it perhaps should. I know precisely how I would do it and the significant challenges involved. Westphalia's founder was a friend and fellow defender. Under different circumstances I would give it a go.

You should stick to thanking the stars.