Illegal Script Usage

[Literallystalin]

A great injustice has been inflicted upon the impeccable paragons of virtue that are the raiders, right?

Raiding isn't illegal.

He never said it was.

[Hurdegaryp]

A great injustice has been inflicted upon the impeccable paragons of virtue that are the raiders, right?

Are you saying that people who play a legal version of the game should be unjustly punished?

No, since the people punished here clearly deserved it.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Are you saying that people who play a legal version of the game should be unjustly punished?

No, since the people punished here clearly deserved it.

For what? Raiding? That's perfectly accepted.

[Hurdegaryp]

No, since the people punished here clearly deserved it.

For what? Raiding? That's perfectly accepted.

Illegal script usage isn't, though.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

For what? Raiding? That's perfectly accepted.

Illegal script usage isn't, though.

Then the actual wrongdoers have been punished, who were Halcones and Bob Moran. The regions they were in are victims of overactive moderation.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I don't recall LKE complaining at their vast numbers of nations lately accrued.

This reeks of plausible deniability.

So does posting from a puppet.

[Onderkelkia]

I don't recall LKE complaining at their vast numbers of nations lately accrued.

We had no idea that the source of our recent population growth was an illegal automated script.

This reeks of plausible deniability.

We were deceived by Bob Moran, who has now mysteriously disappeared. We would never have countenanced the use of an illegal recruitment tool.

[Cymrea]

Illegal script usage isn't, though.

Then the actual wrongdoers have been punished, who were Halcones and Bob Moran. The regions they were in are victims of overactive moderation.

Like how the regions other players are in are the victims of overactive sandcastle-kickers?

But raiding isn't illegal!

Neither is moderation, overactive or otherwise.

But it's not faaaaaaair!

I'm sure those folks evicted from their regions feel the same way. They didn't do anything to deserve being evicted. It's all a matter of perspective.

[Siberian Districts]

Are you saying that people who play a legal version of the game should be unjustly punished?

No, since the people punished here clearly deserved it.

The entire region is being punished. Did tjey deserve it too?

[Greater vakolicci haven]

So does posting from a puppet.

Says you.

This is my main.

Also, I can confirm that Bob has even done a disappearing trick from Skype. He doesn't seem to like talking to people at the moment, it seems.

[Onderkelkia]

We had no idea that the source of our recent population growth was an illegal automated script.


We were deceived by Bob Moran, who has now mysteriously disappeared. We would never have countenanced the use of an illegal recruitment tool.

A most convenient disappearance indeed. Most convenient circumstances all around.

Not convenient for us: we were left five days in the lurch waiting to speak to him after it was initially suggested he was connected to improprieties involving collaboration with "Frak" here in Gameplay.

Then we were hit with this bombshell.

[Shogun]

Once again (must be 100th similar comment on the issue). About Raiding. Raiding essentially is legal act of election of an executive delegate, and actions necessary for keeping such delegate in power. It is always 'democratic' action by default, as game mechanics related to the delegate elections are coded to the game in way that end result is a consequence of getting majority of endorsements given to a delegate candidate.

That, and only that justifies any actions in these matters. Executive delegate is always elected democraticly by highest number of endorsements. That is only justification anyone need in this game, ultimately.

Opt out from potentially destructive R/D gameplay is responsibility of people whom want opt-out from it, as means to do exist, are so simple that even trained simbanzees could learn to do such actions in a regional administrations pages. Region The Black Riders was Opt outed from the Gameplay, but after DEAT of founder puppet nation, it became part of it. We descentants of TBR accept that as an reality, and we'll adapt to it. Why invading defenders and angry natives cannot adapt too, is beyond our reach, even in many many occasions their own native regions indeed are within our reach.

Personally I'm sad losing good friend Bob, whom I consider to be my comrade-in-arms and mentor, whom gave me most important lessons in the art of raiding. There is many good memories in a past, one of most beloved was the process of systematic search for new tactics to be able to break then old hit record of 41 raided regions in single update, considered then to be nearly unbreakable. Feeling what came from that achievement was enormous. It's funny how many levels this game can be approached, but how rare people does play it on the it's very basic level, and build their regions/Organizations from that basis, recognizing real possibilies in it. For most NationStates players it is just sort of Roleplaying platform, they do not see the game itself.

This comment is of course off topic, but so are most of comments in our current recruiting/publication thread, so I don't hesitate now to make this statement here.

[Excidium Planetis]

Then the actual wrongdoers have been punished, who were Halcones and Bob Moran. The regions they were in are victims of overactive moderation.

Like how the regions other players are in are the victims of overactive sandcastle-kickers?

But raiding isn't illegal!

Neither is moderation, overactive or otherwise.

But it's not faaaaaaair!

I'm sure those folks evicted from their regions feel the same way. They didn't do anything to deserve being evicted. It's all a matter of perspective.

If you don't want your sandcastle kicked don't go to the sandcastle-kicking area. Stay at a private invite only beach, or make sure your sandcastles have a nice sturdy foundation.

I mean seriously, this is like complaining in WoW that a Horde player killed the local griffon master and you're stuck far from Stormwind. Maybe you should play a different game if you're upset that people are playing it in a way you don't like.

[Fortitudinem]

Like how the regions other players are in are the victims of overactive sandcastle-kickers?

But raiding isn't illegal!

Neither is moderation, overactive or otherwise.

But it's not faaaaaaair!

I'm sure those folks evicted from their regions feel the same way. They didn't do anything to deserve being evicted. It's all a matter of perspective.

If you don't want your sandcastle kicked don't go to the sandcastle-kicking area. Stay at a private invite only beach, or make sure your sandcastles have a nice sturdy foundation.

I mean seriously, this is like complaining in WoW that a Horde player killed the local griffon master and you're stuck far from Stormwind. Maybe you should play a different game if you're upset that people are playing it in a way you don't like.

You make a good point.

And I love that reference.

[Reploid Productions]

Basically, all this figures is if I hate a region, and don't care about being punished , I can get a region banned from recruitment for a while. Thanks Mods

Given how infrequent a situation this is and should be, any future such incidents will be put under the microscope by mods and the techies. I would very strongly caution against trying to mods-as-weapons this hopefully isolated case. Needless to say, especially given this precise possibility, there is no guarantee that the result of future such isolated incidents will be identical, of course dependent on the specific circumstances.

In the case of TBR and LKE, it wasn't just Random Joe Shmuck, but highly-placed members of the regions' internal governing structures, utilizing tools created by a Delete-On-Sight ex-user.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Shogun]

For those who may think they achieved something decisive out there, I must note that many of us consider many aspect of late happenings good and even welcomed, as they allow us and force us rethink many issues related the main profession. We do not generally see these happenings as a catastrophy hard to recover, but a new opportunity develop further from new basis.

Effect to GP and R/D in NationStates is generally positive. So, when reading all those low-styled and misdirected spams and swears of a GP n00bs out there on RMBs and here in Forums is both hilarious, but it is also an indication of first stage of realization of The Game existence, for many of them. It is of course played upside down, but many of these folks learn the basics of it, which is good thing in long run for Gameplaying.

It may even bring new recruits to the ranks of raiders, as we are best option to learn how the game work. Eventually. Eventually.

[Onderkelkia]

In the case of TBR and LKE, it wasn't just Random Joe Shmuck, but highly-placed members of the regions' internal governing structures, utilizing tools created by a Delete-On-Sight ex-user.

In the case of the LKE, it was a single member - not "members" - and, despite his office, he wasn't "high-placed" either - he was not part of the regional leadership. This rogue individual acted without informing anyone else in the LKE of what he was doing. There is no way anyone else in the LKE could have detected what he was doing. The "Delete-On-Sight ex-user" who he was collaborating with is a long-standing enemy of the LKE with grudges against us.

[Cymrea]

Like how the regions other players are in are the victims of overactive sandcastle-kickers?

But raiding isn't illegal!

Neither is moderation, overactive or otherwise.

But it's not faaaaaaair!

I'm sure those folks evicted from their regions feel the same way. They didn't do anything to deserve being evicted. It's all a matter of perspective.

If you don't want your sandcastle kicked don't go to the sandcastle-kicking area. Stay at a private invite only beach, or make sure your sandcastles have a nice sturdy foundation.

I mean seriously, this is like complaining in WoW that a Horde player killed the local griffon master and you're stuck far from Stormwind. Maybe you should play a different game if you're upset that people are playing it in a way you don't like.

You're inferring an emotional response where one doesn't exist. I'm not upset, nor am I complaining, just stating an opinion based on my own perspective. And you miss the point; raiders crying unfair about being affected by moderator sanctions on their region is just funny, like you're irony-impaired.

[Lovable Alien Overlord]

As a fellow raider, I will take this incident under advisement... However, I hope that we will all be able to come to a peaceful solution and that The Black Riders will become a more constructive player in the raiding scene, so to speak.

[Eluvatar]

In the case of TBR and LKE, it wasn't just Random Joe Shmuck, but highly-placed members of the regions' internal governing structures, utilizing tools created by a Delete-On-Sight ex-user.

In the case of the LKE, it was a single member - not "members" - and, despite his office, he wasn't "high-placed" either - he was not part of the regional leadership. This rogue individual acted without informing anyone else in the LKE of what he was doing. There is no way anyone else in the LKE could have detected what he was doing. The "Delete-On-Sight ex-user" who he was collaborating with is a long-standing enemy of the LKE with grudges against us.

Is that an official position that Ministers are not part of the regional leadership of the Land of Kings and Emperors?

Regardless, my understanding is that in this context the region is perceived as a unit. The region recruited illegally, and the region is penalized for this.

That this is very concerning to regions which actively recruit, and/or reward recruiters for doing so, goes without saying.

It would be helpful to know in general terms the reasons behind the length of time chosen, and whether measures taken to reduce the risk of bad behavior by recruiters could be taken as ameliorating factors should someone evade them and recruit illegally regardless. It would also be helpful to allow people to share the delivery reports of their telegram templates without sharing login access to their nations.

[Lovable Alien Overlord]

This is either a very good day for we raiders or a very bad one, depending on your perspective. Personally, I hope that my region is able to gain the attention of a few interested parties who just want to have fun, not unlike The Black Riders. Oh, and by the way, join The Alien Colony if that describes you.

[Onderkelkia]

Is that an official position that Ministers are not part of the regional leadership of the Land of Kings and Emperors?

Yes, the LKE's official leadership consists of the Emperor, the regents (the Crown Prince, the Prince Imperial and the Lord Protector) and the Prime Minister.

More informally, you might also include the other member of the Imperial Family (the Princess of Vienna, Viktoria Gryfynn), the Deputy Prime Minister, the Speaker of the Estates Common and perhaps the World Assembly Delegate. It would not include ordinary ministers, who are more functionaries than leaders in their responsibilities. No minister, other than the Prime Minister, is vested with decision-making power which would justify calling them a leader really.

No one with any significant decision-making power in the LKE had any idea what Bob Moran was doing.

I have already listed Bob Moran's post counts on the LKE forums in the months preceding January 2015 - he had a grand total of 3 posts in December 2014, 4 posts in November 2014, 3 posts in October 2014 and 1 in September 2014. He was essentially a lurking citizen (as he was elsewhere, including TNI and Osiris), not an active contributor, for a long period. He was appointed Chief of the Imperial General Staff on 28th January - at the time this was a relatively insignificant post, because most military command duties were vested in the United Imperial Armed Forces structures - and Bob Moran deliberately was not appointed the LKE UIAF Division Commander, whereas his predecessor, Josh Sebastian, had both roles. His role in the military naturally became more important once the UIAF was disbanded, which no one in the LKE expected to happen: he was staying on as a caretaker until a new LKE soldier was ready to take on the position, not least because of his own commitments were principally in TBR and he did not wish to be distracted from his greater duties there.

The Prime Minister has already explained why Bob Moran was appointed interior minister on 8th March and that there was no reason to suspect him:

The Imperial Government of The Land of Kings and Emperors did not authorize Bob Moran to use any script/recruitment program, nor had we any knowledge that he had access to such tools. Bob Moran was made Interior Minister in early March of this year in recognition of the valuable input he made during our community forum restructuring; the review of our recruitment and integration telegrams, and his supposedly manual recruitment efforts. He was a friendly member of the community, always on the look out to help our newer members, and suggest ideas for the betterment of our community. Which is why, his involvement in these is a great shock and dismay to us all.

I'd be interested to know whether his illegal automated script in the LKE was instigated before or after 8th March, given that was when he became a minister - which is not particularly significant, though for some reason is being presented as such by those with no informed understanding of the LKE's hierarchy. If before, I'd like to know how long before. For the purposes of evaluating the periods of the recruitment restrictions imposed, given the reason for them is apparently to correct the imbalances created by Bob Moran's actions, I'd also like to know when the TBR script was instigated as well.

Regardless, my understanding is that in this context the region is perceived as a unit. The region recruited illegally, and the region is penalized for this.

If the region is being taken as a unit, as a corporate entity, then it should only be sanctioned for those actions authorised by its leadership.

Bob Moran told no one else in the LKE what he was doing.

The region did not recruit illegally: the person who recruited illegally was Bob Moran, without the knowledge or consent of those who control the region.

What exactly is it that the moderators would have had anyone else in the LKE do? How could we have prevented this?

So far we have had one moderator's answer of checking the API telegram delivery in order to check for "previous recruitment too recent" numbers, which he says will have exploded in response to Bob Moran's automated recruitment. Yet apart from the fact there is no obligation to do this under NS rules, why would a region which has been running an automated script which without any problems, continuously since mid-2013, be checking this figure, which has no particular use, when we had no reason to expect any untoward activity was taking place? That is apart from the fact that the figure of 11,800 nations, which we now see was recorded there - which is since July 2013 - could have been perfectly consistent with Bob Moran carrying out heavy manual recruitment of 300-400 nations per day over a sustained period - hardly "inhuman" as it was termed by that moderator. This approach is patently unfair.

[Old Hope]

If the region is being taken as a unit, as a corporate entity, then it should only be sanctioned for those actions authorised by its leadership.

Well, corporate entities are penalized for any actions a member does in an officially legitimated function, or for any actions that look like legitimate ones. The official function was recruiting...
You region employed someone for manual recruiting, and that one did it in an illegal way, automated per script, instead. Your region got punished.
I do not see any inconsistency.

[Onderkelkia]

If the region is being taken as a unit, as a corporate entity, then it should only be sanctioned for those actions authorised by its leadership.

Well, corporate entities are penalized for any actions a member does in an official function. The official function was recruiting...
You region employed someone for manual recruiting, and that one did it in an illegal way, automated per script, instead. Your region got punished.
I do not see any inconsistency.

1. The fundamental point here is that he did not manually recruit - that is the entire problem. Script-run recruitment is not manually completed, even if it is faked to appear as such. He had no responsibility for automated recruitment, which is the monarchy's province. He exceeded the remit of his duties.

2. This is not the kind of action which we could have reasonably prevented him doing, as discussed in my above post.

3. This comes back to when precisely the script was instigated, given he was appointed as interior minister on 8th March. Was it before or after? If before, then its instigation can hardly be linked to his appointment to the Interior Ministry, which now seems to have become the main defence for this punishment. If after, then that casts doubt on the fairness of the 3 month restriction. If before, how far before? Also, when was TBR's script instigated by comparison?

4. The Interior Ministry's core responsibilities included manual recruitment, but prior to Bob Moran it was relatively unusual for interior ministers to do any significant amount of manual recruitment after late 2013 with script recruitment in place: naturalisation (getting existing nations onto the forum), mentoring new members and maintenance of official records were more typical activities carried out by interior ministers post-2013. He was not employed specifically to recruit - but in any case, the point is that while manual recruitment was technically part of his remit, automated tools were not.

It is unfair to punish the entire LKE for the actions of a rogue individual acting without our sanction in concert with an enemy of our region.

[Solorni]

I wonder if these defenders who are supporting the punishment against LKE would support it if it was against a defender region.