Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

[Cormactopia Prime]

And how does this really conconcile with

a great example of the growth gripping Balder.

Perhaps he was referring to this definition of growth:



In which case it all makes more sense, as the growing userite presence from The LKE is indeed "a great example of the growth gripping Balder."

[Solorni]

So

not enough people ran to trigger more than five seats in the legislature

But

there were more candidates than last election

What does that say about your last election?

Not great things admittedly. Last election we had four people running and around 9-10 votes. According to the Representation of the Realm Act (2015), we need over 9 candidates to have more than 5 seats (7 seats). Which is quite a bit. Europeia currently has 6 seats, so 1 more than us and they've gone down to 5 before despite being considerably larger than us when you compare the number of citizens.

And how does this really conconcile with

a great example of the growth gripping Balder.

Well, the last Statsminister did a great job helping build the region up. So we went from 4 candidates to 8 candidates and we went from 9-10 votes to around 22-24 votes this election. It also coincides with the improvements we have seen over the past few months.

February posts per day: 13.04
March posts per day: 43.54

February discord posts per day: 215
March discord posts per day: 444

February Endorsements: 249
March Endorsements: 326

I didn't really feel like calculating the percentages Balder has improved and I don't have the stats about citizenship growth handy, but quite clearly Balder has seen a great deal of growth over the past 5 weeks. But I do think the differences and improvements in these numbers, some of which are over triple as good are indeed a good example of growth. Even if that starting point was not ideal...

[North East Somerset]

@Consular - there were 8 candidates for 5 seats. If there had been 9 candidates, the number of seats would have increased to 7. That's how the system works.

Listen, the royal family of The Land of Kings and Emperors comprises 4/5 (80%) of Balder's legislature. You even received a number of votes corresponding to your importance in the royal family as listed on The LKE's forum header, with the Emperor receiving the most and the Prince Imperial the least.

All part of the plan. Very carefully laid out. All twenty something of the voters in the election were carefully co-ordinated by the LKE Secretariat. I mean seriously, don't be ridiculous Cormac. The ranking of MPs was determined by the votes of the citizens of Balder, which were done in a secret ballot. The 4 MP's you refer to have 4,000 posts between them, they are all dedicated Balderans who have made substantive contributions to the community over the years. There are plenty of people in more advanced positions in other GCRs with much smaller levels of participation or contribution.

And how does this really conconcile with

Perhaps he was referring to this definition of growth:



In which case it all makes more sense, as the growing userite presence from The LKE is indeed "a great example of the growth gripping Balder."

"Of Goats and Men" is Rach, for the record.

As for the "userite presence", Balder has a long and proud history of successful relations engaging with UCR's going right back to 21st October 2011, 3 days after Balder's founding - when TNI and Europeia signed the Pact of Friendship with Balder, through The Reich Chancellery of C. I. Cerebella and The Presidency of Rachel Anumia. LKE actually signed it 4 days later through their Prime Minister, Viktoria Gryfynn.

Anyway, I've heard it all before. For some time it was TNI controlling Balder, and then it was Europeia. Or was it Europeia first, I can't remember now. Anyway, now its LKE. It's the same old story rehashed generation after generation, to try and discredit Balder. Often by you in fact, but whoever it is, their intention is to slander us because Balder has chosen to do something they disagree with.

But our record speaks for itself - Balder has been remarkably successful, it has benefited immensely from its relations with Independent regions, and I think they have been a big factor behind our success. We're not being influenced or pushed towards any ideology - we're free to pursue whatever initiatives we want- that's the whole point of independence. Indeed, in this Lazarus case, we were clearly moving well in advance of the LKE. Indeed, only TWP beat us to the punch to back the Lazarus rebranding. We have a treaty with Lazarus where LKE does not - is that what LKE controlling Balder looks like? Hmmm...

[Cormactopia Prime]

<snip>

These are a lot of words that still don't address the fact that The LKE's royal family has an 80% supermajority in your legislature. With that 80% supermajority, The LKE's royal family can make laws, select Balder's head of government, remove Balder's head of government and other government officials, and block the Queen from passing royal decrees -- all without the input of anyone else in Balder.

The royal family of The LKE has total control over Balder's government. That's fact. To say "other GCRs have people from UCRs in their governments" is disingenuous deflection. Yes, they do, but they don't have people from a single UCR with absolute control over their governments. The only other GCR in which a single UCR has absolute control over its government is Lazarus. Congratulations on being in the same boat as a Sinker that has been invaded.

Balder is a textbook case of what happens to a GCR when entryists from UCRs are permitted to gain positions of power. Having gained positions of power, now they have taken all power, at the expense of Balder's actual natives. It's a shame to see Balder or any GCR reduced to such a state.

[Ikania]

I think the problem here, Cormac, and what they may attempt to use as a deflection, is that this is nothing new. LKE has been entrenched for a very long time, and its members are considered inseparable from actual Balder natives. This userite entryism has been going on for such a long time that Balder's identity has been almost irreversibly tied to these Imperialists. It's a prime example of the fate that awaits Lazarus under LWU control, and certainly something to be avoided. They use their control over Balder as a strength and proudly own their complete dominance, while making no effort to dispel the facts, aside from rejecting the appropriate labels to describe the situation.

[Solorni]

Balder is a textbook case of what happens to a GCR when entryists from UCRs are permitted to gain positions of power.

The success of Balder, her system and her culture is indeed quite an achievement. It has not been an easy road, but the statistics in stability, fundamentals and activity speak for themselves. You yourself have noted and marveled at the successes of Balder and the way it has achieved success over what many felt were impossible paradoxes. Don't forget that the entire system of Balder was built around the idea that we could accept anyone and they could not coup the region while our dominant culture would convert them to Balderans. It is the twins of our grand culture & system that have enabled Balder to achieve miracles.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I think the problem here, Cormac, and what they may attempt to use as a deflection, is that this is nothing new. LKE has been entrenched for a very long time, and its members are considered inseparable from actual Balder natives. This userite entryism has been going on for such a long time that Balder's identity has been almost irreversibly tied to these Imperialists. It's a prime example of the fate that awaits Lazarus under LWU control, and certainly something to be avoided. They use their control over Balder as a strength and proudly own their complete dominance, while making no effort to dispel the facts, aside from rejecting the appropriate labels to describe the situation.

You are also an entryist, so we don't have common cause here. I just want to make that very clear.

That said, you're not wrong about what you're saying in regard to either Balder or Lazarus.

Balder is a textbook case of what happens to a GCR when entryists from UCRs are permitted to gain positions of power.

The success of Balder, her system and her culture is indeed quite an achievement. It has not been an easy road, but the statistics in stability, fundamentals and activity speak for themselves. You yourself have noted and marveled at the successes of Balder and the way it has achieved success over what many felt were impossible paradoxes. Don't forget that the entire system of Balder was built around the idea that we could accept anyone and they could not coup the region while our dominant culture would convert them to Balderans. It is the twins of our grand culture & system that have enabled Balder to achieve miracles.

Sometimes imperialism is successful. It is nonetheless still imperialism when it's successful.

[Ikania]

That said, you're not wrong about what you're saying in regard to either Balder or Lazarus.

Now I'm curious. How am I an entryist, Cormac?

[North East Somerset]

These are a lot of words that still don't address the fact that The LKE's royal family has an 80% supermajority in your legislature. With that 80% supermajority, The LKE's royal family can make laws, select Balder's head of government, remove Balder's head of government and other government officials, and block the Queen from passing royal decrees -- all without the input of anyone else in Balder.

The members of the Storting are only there because of the input of everyone in Balder - that's the whole point of democracy.

Furthermore, I reject this whole concept that the four MPs in question are not dedicated to Balder, just because they are also members of the LKE royal family. For instnace, Theoden has 2000+ posts in Balder, and he was appointed an Administrator, as well as serving as Statsminister - before he was made Crown Prince in the LKE. Fact.

I mean, on the flip side, I am a member of the Balder royal family, and I am the Lord High Steward in the LKE, a position of considerable constitutional status, which exercises all of the powers of the Emperor bar specified exceptions, and which sits as Moderator of the Guardian Council which proclaims successors to the Emperor. Additionally the delegated powers of the Emperor to other members of the LKE royal family, are subject to the consent of the Lord High Steward. Does that mean Balder controls the LKE?

The royal family of The LKE has total control over Balder's government. That's fact. To say "other GCRs have people from UCRs in their governments" is disingenuous deflection. Yes, they do, but they don't have people from a single UCR with absolute control over their governments.

Show me where in my post I said anything remotely like that. That wasn't my argument, that is just what you thought would be my argument
- so you are making a strawman there

Balder is a textbook case of what happens to a GCR when entryists from UCRs are permitted to gain positions of power. Having gained positions of power, now they have taken all power, at the expense of Balder's actual natives. It's a shame to see Balder or any GCR reduced to such a state.

I can assure you, Balder has not been "reduced" to any state. We are enjoying record levels of success and are more free to pursue a Bolder foreign policy than at any state in our history. Unfortunately for you and your current chums.

[Solorni]

The success of Balder, her system and her culture is indeed quite an achievement. It has not been an easy road, but the statistics in stability, fundamentals and activity speak for themselves. You yourself have noted and marveled at the successes of Balder and the way it has achieved success over what many felt were impossible paradoxes. Don't forget that the entire system of Balder was built around the idea that we could accept anyone and they could not coup the region while our dominant culture would convert them to Balderans. It is the twins of our grand culture & system that have enabled Balder to achieve miracles.

Sometimes imperialism is successful. It is nonetheless still imperialism when it's successful.

Balder's political system is not built or based on imperial regions. I broadly designed our system during the last big change to Balder and they are not based on any Imperialist region but rather Independent regions (Balder does not even carry the Imperialistic tag). So you are incorrect.

You have to admit that Balder is successful because of its system and culture, both of which have converted many people of all stripes to be Balderans first and foremost.

[Cormactopia Prime]

The members of the Storting are only there because of the input of everyone in Balder - that's the whole point of democracy.

Furthermore, I reject this whole concept that the four MPs in question are not dedicated to Balder, just because they are also members of the LKE royal family. For instnace, Theoden has 2000+ posts in Balder, and he was appointed an Administrator, as well as serving as Statsminister - before he was made Crown Prince in the LKE. Fact.

And yet you argue that defenders anywhere are not dedicated to the regions in which they're involved. Explain to me how that works. Explain to me how foreign affiliations matter when you're bashing defenders, but they don't matter when 4/5 of Balder's legislature have foreign affiliations.

I mean, on the flip side, I am a member of the Balder royal family, and I am the Lord High Steward in the LKE, a position of considerable constitutional status, which exercises all of the powers of the Emperor bar specified exceptions, and which sits as Moderator of the Guardian Council which proclaims successors to the Emperor. Additionally the delegated powers of the Emperor to other members of the LKE royal family, are subject to the consent of the Lord High Steward. Does that mean Balder controls the LKE?

I couldn't care less about the implications that a GCR native involved in a UCR have for the UCR. I only care about the implications for GCRs. But given that your allegiance to interregional imperialism far predates Balder's existence, I think it's clear where your actual loyalties lie.

Balder is a textbook case of what happens to a GCR when entryists from UCRs are permitted to gain positions of power. Having gained positions of power, now they have taken all power, at the expense of Balder's actual natives. It's a shame to see Balder or any GCR reduced to such a state.

I can assure you, Balder has not been "reduced" to any state. We are enjoying record levels of success and are more free to pursue a Bolder foreign policy than at any state in our history. Unfortunately for you and your current chums.

Again, that imperialism is sometimes successful does not make it any less imperialism. Your "bolder foreign policy" consists of trying to export the UCR entryism tactic of imperialism you've perfected in Balder to other GCRs, often politically, but by force when you get the opportunity (as in Lazarus).

[Onderkelkia]

The members of the Storting are only there because of the input of everyone in Balder - that's the whole point of democracy.

Furthermore, I reject this whole concept that the four MPs in question are not dedicated to Balder, just because they are also members of the LKE royal family. For instnace, Theoden has 2000+ posts in Balder, and he was appointed an Administrator, as well as serving as Statsminister - before he was made Crown Prince in the LKE. Fact.

And yet you argue that defenders anywhere are not dedicated to the regions in which they're involved. Explain to me how that works. Explain to me how foreign affiliations matter when you're bashing defenders, but they don't matter when 4/5 of Balder's legislature have foreign affiliations.

This is a straw man. The argument has never been solely that the presence of defenders in The South Pacific proves defender subversion. Rather, the point is that TSP's foreign and military policy preferences have been materially altered in a pro-defender direction by the interference of defender politicians (historically Glen-Rhodes and Unibot, and more recently Roavin and Tim-Opolis). The pattern of defender-driven policy change is what matters. By contrast, the direction of Balder foreign policy has been remarkably stable and consistent regardless of the specific individuals in government since 2011. None of the participants in Balder who also hold citizenship in the LKE have done anything except faithfully advance Balder's long-standing Independent stance.

[North East Somerset]

And yet you argue that defenders anywhere are not dedicated to the regions in which they're involved. Explain to me how that works. Explain to me how foreign affiliations matter when you're bashing defenders, but they don't matter when 4/5 of Balder's legislature have foreign affiliations.

I'm not arguing that actually, yet again, you're putting words in my mouth. That's called a strawman argument. I just pointed that out - so you do it again. 3rd time lucky?

My argument regarding defender involvement has nothing to do with their dedication or otherwise, which is very difficult to evaluate objectively - and everything to do with how for example in TSP they have driven substantive foreign policy changes to the status quo there, which favoured the interests of the globalist Defender ideology. That is subversion - which contrasts to anything you can cite in Balder.

I couldn't care less about the implications that a GCR native involved in a UCR have for the UCR. I only care about the implications for GCRs. But given that your allegiance to interregional imperialism far predates Balder's existence, I think it's clear where your actual loyalties lie.

I didn't actually do that much personally to develop Imperialism, at least not during my time in Balder. But I was certainly involved in the development of the Independence movement from a concept through to the publication of what it means to be independent. That was done in parallel to my involvement with Balder, which signed the manifesto, alongside many other regions - including the LKE.

Again, that imperialism is sometimes successful does not make it any less imperialism. Your "bolder foreign policy" consists of trying to export the UCR entryism tactic of imperialism you've perfected in Balder to other GCRs, often politically, but by force when you get the opportunity (as in Lazarus).

Balder "employs its Independent military in order to effect the military objectives dictated by the region’s diplomatic interests, and in any way necessary to achieve these objectives". It's all in here; https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=844519 .

[Cormactopia Prime]

And yet you argue that defenders anywhere are not dedicated to the regions in which they're involved. Explain to me how that works. Explain to me how foreign affiliations matter when you're bashing defenders, but they don't matter when 4/5 of Balder's legislature have foreign affiliations.

This is a straw man. The argument has never been solely that the presence of defenders in The South Pacific proves defender subversion. Rather, the point is that TSP's foreign and military policy preferences have been materially altered in a pro-defender direction by the interference of defender politicians (historically Glen-Rhodes and Unibot, and more recently Roavin and Tim-Opolis). The pattern of defender-driven policy change is what matters. By contrast, the direction of Balder foreign policy has been remarkably stable and consistent regardless of the specific individuals in government since 2011. None of the participants in Balder who also hold citizenship in the LKE have done anything except faithfully advance Balder's long-standing Independent stance.

And yet you argue that defenders anywhere are not dedicated to the regions in which they're involved. Explain to me how that works. Explain to me how foreign affiliations matter when you're bashing defenders, but they don't matter when 4/5 of Balder's legislature have foreign affiliations.

I'm not arguing that actually, yet again, you're putting words in my mouth. That's called a strawman argument. I just pointed that out - so you do it again. 3rd time lucky?

My argument regarding defender involvement has nothing to do with their dedication or otherwise, which is very difficult to evaluate objectively - and everything to do with how for example in TSP they have driven substantive foreign policy changes to the status quo there, which favoured the interests of the globalist Defender ideology. That is subversion - which contrasts to anything you can cite in Balder.

So it's only subversion if people from UCRs come in and bend the GCR to their will halfway through its existence, and not if they're there from the start?

I couldn't care less about the implications that a GCR native involved in a UCR have for the UCR. I only care about the implications for GCRs. But given that your allegiance to interregional imperialism far predates Balder's existence, I think it's clear where your actual loyalties lie.

I didn't actually do that much personally to develop Imperialism, at least not during my time in Balder. But I was certainly involved in the development of the Independence movement from a concept through to the publication of what it means to be independent. That was done in parallel to my involvement with Balder, which signed the manifesto, alongside many other regions - including the LKE.

I'm talking about your dedication to imperialist actions, not your dedication to the imperialist ideology, which has always been bizarre in that it admits what it is and expects people to like it. Your imperialism masquerades as independence so it will be more palatable, but it is imperialism.

Again, that imperialism is sometimes successful does not make it any less imperialism. Your "bolder foreign policy" consists of trying to export the UCR entryism tactic of imperialism you've perfected in Balder to other GCRs, often politically, but by force when you get the opportunity (as in Lazarus).

Balder "employs its Independent military in order to effect the military objectives dictated by the region’s diplomatic interests, and in any way necessary to achieve these objectives". It's all in here; https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=844519 .

So you're acknowledging that Balder is supporting the invasion of Lazarus to make it compatible with Balder's interests by force? Would Balder also support the invasion of other GCRs, including its allies (as Lazarus was), to make them compatible with Balder's interests if they weren't anymore?

[North East Somerset]

So it's only subversion if people from UCRs come in and bend the GCR to their will halfway through its existence, and not if they're there from the start?

That is correct, yes. Indeed, that is precisely how the word subversion would apply in Nationstates.

Subversion, from the latin subvertere: overthrow, refers to a process by which the values and principles of a system in place are contradicted or reversed, an attempt to transform the established social order and its structures of power, authority, hierarchy, and norm. (wiki)

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/subversion - "The undermining of the power and authority of an established system or institution."

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... subversion - "the act of trying to destroy or damage an established system or government"

Therefore by very definition, one cannot subvert something that is not already in place and established. Ergo, subversion can only occur where there is an established system or structure already in place! I hope we're almost there now...

I'm talking about your dedication to imperialist actions, not your dedication to the imperialist ideology, which has always been bizarre in that it admits what it is and expects people to like it. Your imperialism masquerades as independence so it will be more palatable, but it is imperialism.

Now hold on a minute, I make the definitions which our policies work through, not you. Independence is defined in the manifesto, and Imperialism is also referred to as "possessing the characteristics outlined in this statement. However, Imperialist regions have additional characteristics that do not apply to all Independent regions, and Independent and Imperialist regions have had at periods separate historical traditions, despite sharing common origins." So it's not a case of "masquerading" - imperialism is openly defined to share all the functional attributes of independence.

So you're acknowledging that Balder is supporting the invasion of Lazarus to make it compatible with Balder's interests by force? Would Balder also support the invasion of other GCRs, including its allies (as Lazarus was), to make them compatible with Balder's interests if they weren't anymore?

By force, yes, that is indeed what using the word "military" means in Nationstates. Essentially you can use the word "force" and "military" interchangeably. Balder hasn't invaded Lazarus, it has supported the legitimate successor government, as defined in our Treaty. Balder would not conduct hostilities with a region it is treatied to.

[Cormactopia Prime]

So it's only subversion if people from UCRs come in and bend the GCR to their will halfway through its existence, and not if they're there from the start?

That is correct, yes. Well done! Indeed, that is precisely how the word subversion would apply in Nationstates.

It's very convenient for you that it's fine to force a GCR to bend to your will as long as you're around since the GCR started. Personally, I don't think GCRs should ever be forced to bend to the will of UCR entryists, whether the GCR has existed for ten minutes or ten years. UCR entryists don't belong in GCRs; they should go back to their UCRs, or abandon them entirely in favor of reverting to being Feederites or Sinkerites who put their Feeder or Sinker first.

I'm talking about your dedication to imperialist actions, not your dedication to the imperialist ideology, which has always been bizarre in that it admits what it is and expects people to like it. Your imperialism masquerades as independence so it will be more palatable, but it is imperialism.

Now hold on a minute, I make the definitions which our policies work through, not you. Independence is defined in the manifesto, and Imperialism is also referred to as "possessing the characteristics outlined in this statement. However, Imperialist regions have additional characteristics that do not apply to all Independent regions, and Independent and Imperialist regions have had at periods separate historical traditions, despite sharing common origins." So it's not a case of "masquerading" - imperialism is openly defined to share all the functional attributes of independence.

Again, I'm talking about imperialist actions, not the imperialist ideology. Try to keep up. You can engage in imperialist actions without self-identifying as an imperialist, and any UCR entryist trying to bend a GCR to his or her will for foreign interests or ambitions is an imperialist.

Which is why you are an imperialist.

So you're acknowledging that Balder is supporting the invasion of Lazarus to make it compatible with Balder's interests by force? Would Balder also support the invasion of other GCRs, including its allies (as Lazarus was), to make them compatible with Balder's interests if they weren't anymore?

By force, yes, that is indeed what using the word "military" means in Nationstates. Essentially you can use the word "force" and "military" interchangeably. Balder hasn't invaded Lazarus, it has supported the legitimate successor government, as defined in our Treaty. Balder would not conduct hostilities with a region it is treatied to.

Except for all those times you have?

[North East Somerset]

It's very convenient for you that it's fine to force a GCR to bend to your will as long as you're around since the GCR started. Personally, I don't think GCRs should ever be forced to bend to the will of UCR entryists, whether the GCR has existed for ten minutes or ten years. UCR entryists don't belong in GCRs; they should go back to their UCRs, or abandon them entirely in favor of reverting to being Feederites or Sinkerites who put their Feeder or Sinker first.

Right, so are you essentially alleging that Rach and myself are "UCR entryists" and should never have been permitted to be involved in Balder. Newsflash - I'm sorry, but that's not something I'm ever going to agree with. Shock - horror - surprise!

Again, I'm talking about imperialist actions, not the imperialist ideology. Try to keep up. You can engage in imperialist actions without self-identifying as an imperialist, and any UCR entryist trying to bend a GCR to his or her will for his or her interests or ambitions is an imperialist.

Which is why you are an imperialist.

Right, so just try and explain again, why is the deployment of military force to promote our interests, automatically an "imperialist action", rather than an action based on the application of independent realpolitik policy? By that definition any use of military force at any time in history is "imperialism" - so that's fairly absurd. If you want to have a proper debate on this you will have to define your version of "Imperialist" - because at the moment it seems to be anyone who is prepared to use their military to support the foreign interests of the State - which is any non-isolationist sovereign state.

Except for all those times you have?

I don't think we're going to agree on that. Like I said, its up to us to determine what we view is a legitimate successor government. You don't have a monopoly on determining who is legitimate and who isn't. You're almost beginning to sound like a Defender, Cormac!

[Cormactopia Prime]

It's very convenient for you that it's fine to force a GCR to bend to your will as long as you're around since the GCR started. Personally, I don't think GCRs should ever be forced to bend to the will of UCR entryists, whether the GCR has existed for ten minutes or ten years. UCR entryists don't belong in GCRs; they should go back to their UCRs, or abandon them entirely in favor of reverting to being Feederites or Sinkerites who put their Feeder or Sinker first.

Right, so are you essentially alleging that Rach and myself are "UCR entryists" and should never have been permitted to be involved in Balder. Newsflash - I'm sorry, but that's not something I'm ever going to agree with. Shock - horror - surprise!

Well, yes actually, but my immediate concern has more to do with The LKE's royal family comprising 4/5 of your legislature. While you and Rach are at least now primarily involved in Balder -- Rach moreso than you -- The LKE's royal family is still very much involved in, well, The LKE. Is there a reason we should believe The LKE's royal family would put Balder's interests ahead of The LKE's, should there be conflicting interests?

Again, I'm talking about imperialist actions, not the imperialist ideology. Try to keep up. You can engage in imperialist actions without self-identifying as an imperialist, and any UCR entryist trying to bend a GCR to his or her will for his or her interests or ambitions is an imperialist.

Which is why you are an imperialist.

Right, so just try and explain again, why is the deployment of military force to promote our interests, automatically an "imperialist action", rather than an action based on the application of independent realpolitik policy? By that definition any use of military force at any time in history is "imperialism" - so that's fairly absurd. If you want to have a proper debate on this you will have to define your version of "Imperialist".

I'm not even talking exclusively about military force. I'm talking about UCR entryism in GCRs in general, which is more often political than military.

Except for all those times you have?

I don't think we're going to agree on that. Like I said, its up to us to determine what we view is a legitimate successor government. You don't have a monopoly on determining who is legitimate and who isn't. You're almost beginning to sound like a Defender, Cormac!

If I'm sounding too defender for you, NES, don't listen to me. Listen to your ally, the Pharaoh of Osiris. Or is he sounding too defender for you too? Should Osiris be invaded next to combat the defender menace? Do you see defenders everywhere all the time, or does it just happen in fits and starts?

After further observation, however, I cannot condemn enough the current status of Lazarus, and the actions of the sitting Delegate. Sinkers are not trophies to be claimed, and they require a very interesting approach; bouts of inactivity are common, and they take a very dedicated and steady hand to maintain the region. A Lazarus that ultimately serves as a colony for a UCR at best, or a raid trophy at worse, is a Lazarus that Osiris cannot, in good conscience, support.

[North East Somerset]

Well, yes actually, but my immediate concern has more to do with The LKE's royal family comprising 4/5 of your legislature. While you and Rach are at least now primarily involved in Balder -- Rach moreso than you -- The LKE's royal family is still very much involved in, well, The LKE. Is there a reason we should believe The LKE's royal family would put Balder's interests ahead of The LKE's, should there be conflicting interests?

So who would you have permitted to be involved in Balder if not me and Rach? Who from the early history of Balder would you prefer were Delegate for the past 3 years, rather than Rach, because she is a "UCR entryist" in your view? Unibot, perhaps?

Also, Rach was President of Europeia less than a month ago, since early November. Was Balder a puppet of Europeia during that 4 month period in your view?

I'm confident that the LKE respects Balder's independence, as it has done since it signed the Pact of Friendship a week after Balder's founding in October 2011. Dual Balder-LKE citizens have hitherto have maintained Balder's long-standing policy position and conventions, unlike the defender subversives in TSP for instance. And in the event that was to change, then they can be voted out by the Balder public.

I'm not even talking exclusively about military force. I'm talking about UCR entryism in GCRs in general, which is more often political than military.

So any political involvement of people who have been in UCRs, in a GCR, is imperialism? I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

If I'm sounding too defender for you, NES, don't listen to me. Listen to your ally, the Pharaoh of Osiris. Or is he sounding too defender for you too? Should Osiris be invaded next to combat the defender menace? Do you see defenders everywhere all the time, or does it just happen in fits and starts?

I respect our allies right to have their own view on whether they interpret the current government to be a legitimate successor to the last one, and I expect them to respect our right to determine our own independent views on such matters as well.

As for my comparison of your perspective to that of some Defender, it is quite a pervasive ideology in Nationstates. However, one of its hallmarks is this idea that their view is the right one, and other views are morally wrong, and should not be respected. That seems to be a principle you are adopting at the moment, although of course given your history it could be a brief one. In contrast, my views have been anything but sporadic over the years, as you know.

[Solorni]

Right, so are you essentially alleging that Rach and myself are "UCR entryists" and should never have been permitted to be involved in Balder. Newsflash - I'm sorry, but that's not something I'm ever going to agree with. Shock - horror - surprise!

Well, yes actually

You don't think I should have been allowed to get involved in Balder?

[Cormactopia Prime]

Well, yes actually, but my immediate concern has more to do with The LKE's royal family comprising 4/5 of your legislature. While you and Rach are at least now primarily involved in Balder -- Rach moreso than you -- The LKE's royal family is still very much involved in, well, The LKE. Is there a reason we should believe The LKE's royal family would put Balder's interests ahead of The LKE's, should there be conflicting interests?

So who would you have permitted to be involved in Balder if not me and Rach? Who from the early history of Balder would you prefer were Delegate for the past 3 years, rather than Rach, because she is a "UCR entryist" in your view? Unibot, perhaps?

No, I would prefer that anyone involving themselves in any GCR cease their involvement in any UCR, as is proper for a Feederite or Sinkerite.

Also, Rach was President of Europeia less than a month ago, since early November. Was Balder a puppet of Europeia during that 4 month period in your view?

No, but Rach was improperly involved with a UCR, which was conduct unbecoming of a Sinker Delegate who should put the Sinker before anything else. Had Rach had absolute control over Balder, as The LKE royal family currently does, then yes, Balder would have been a puppet of Europeia.

I'm confident that the LKE respects Balder's independence, as it has done since it signed the Pact of Friendship a week after Balder's founding in October 2011. Dual Balder-LKE citizens have hitherto have maintained Balder's long-standing policy position and conventions, unlike the defender subversives in TSP for instance. And in the event that was to change, then they can be voted out by the Balder public.

So it is your position, then, that The LKE royal family would prioritize Balder's interests over The LKE if conflicting interests surfaced?

I'm not even talking exclusively about military force. I'm talking about UCR entryism in GCRs in general, which is more often political than military.

So any political involvement of people who have been in UCRs, in a GCR, is imperialism? I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

Any involvement in a GCR by UCR entryists (commonly called userites) is imperialism. Many UCR participants in GCRs aren't deliberate entryists, but most do improperly influence the Feeder(s) or Sinker(s) in which they're involved in the interests of their UCR to some degree, even if unintentional. That's why it's inappropriate for UCR residents who are unwilling to leave their UCRs to participate in GCRs, even if many are not deliberate entryists.

If I'm sounding too defender for you, NES, don't listen to me. Listen to your ally, the Pharaoh of Osiris. Or is he sounding too defender for you too? Should Osiris be invaded next to combat the defender menace? Do you see defenders everywhere all the time, or does it just happen in fits and starts?

I respect our allies right to have their own view on whether they interpret the current government to be a legitimate successor to the last one, and I expect them to respect our right to determine our own independent views on such matters as well.

As for my comparison of your perspective to that of some Defender, it is quite a pervasive ideology in Nationstates. However, one of its hallmarks is this idea that their view is the right one, and other views are morally wrong, and should not be respected. That seems to be a principle you are adopting at the moment, although of course given your history it could be a brief one. In contrast, my views have been anything but sporadic over the years, as you know.

Most people believe their view is the right one, regardless of their ideology. In regard to "morality," if I have any morality in this debate -- and I'm not sure that's even the right word -- it is focused on the sovereignty of Feeders and Sinkers. While I don't approve of griefing founderless UCRs (which is to say, ejecting and banning natives, etc.), I don't disapprove of raiding in general. I don't approve of it either. I don't care. What UCR people want to do in founderless UCRs is really none of my concern, except that I'm not personally fond of griefing -- hardly an exclusively defender position.

Well, yes actually

You don't think I should have been allowed to get involved in Balder?

I think if you wanted to be involved in Balder, you should have left any UCRs and fully embraced being a Sinkerite. I still think you should.

[Solorni]

You don't think I should have been allowed to get involved in Balder?

I think if you wanted to be involved in Balder, you should have left any UCRs and fully embraced being a Sinkerite. I still think you should.

I guess since you know better than me, are you saying that if I do that I can become a decently skilled player at this game?

[Cormactopia Prime]

I think if you wanted to be involved in Balder, you should have left any UCRs and fully embraced being a Sinkerite. I still think you should.

I guess since you know better than me, are you saying that if I do that I can become a decently skilled player at this game?

When did I say you weren't already a decently skilled gameplayer?

I think if you do that it will improve your approach to Balder as its Delegate and benefit Balder, though again, the bigger problem in Balder under its current system is that it is under the control of The LKE royal family. That's a much bigger problem than your minimal involvement elsewhere.

[North East Somerset]

No, I would prefer that anyone involving themselves in any GCR cease their involvement in any UCR, as is proper for a Feederite or Sinkerite.

So you'll be demanding that Koth ceases his involvement in TBH, and Tim Stark in TGW - or is this just a policy you'll be applying selectively to Balder?

Also, what exactly makes you think anyone should care what you prefer?

No, but Rach was improperly involved with a UCR, which was conduct unbecoming of a Sinker Delegate who should put the Sinker before anything else.

Unbecoming!? Now then. These are strong words indeed. So erm, how many UCR's were you involved with over the years in parallel with your political career in GCRs? Do we need to list them all, or errr... did you have Roavin's permission beforehand?

So it is your position, then, that The LKE royal family would prioritize Balder's interests over The LKE if conflicting interests surfaced?

To reiterate - I'm confident that the LKE respects Balder's independence, and that the dual-citizens would not do anything to compromise Balder's interests.

Any involvement in a GCR by UCR entryists (commonly called userites) is imperialism. Many UCR participants in GCRs aren't deliberate entryists, but most do improperly influence the Feeder(s) or Sinker(s) in which they're involved in the interests of their UCR to some degree, even if unintentional. That's why it's inappropriate for UCR residents who are unwilling to leave their UCRs to participate in GCRs, even if many are not deliberate entryists.

Ah deliberate entryists. Who would be best to determine if someone is a deliberate entryist or an indeliberate entryist? Would that be you?! Gather around everyone, the Oracle of Sinker-Feederism has some judgements to pronounce!

Most people believe their view is the right one, regardless of their ideology. In regard to "morality," if I have any morality in this debate -- and I'm not sure that's even the right word -- it is focused on the sovereignty of Feeders and Sinkers. While I don't approve of griefing founderless UCRs (which is to say, ejecting and banning natives, etc.), I don't disapprove of raiding in general. I don't approve of it either. I don't care. What UCR people want to do in founderless UCRs is really none of my concern, except that I'm not personally fond of griefing -- hardly an exclusively defender position.

Griefing is defined here; https://www.nationstates.net/page=faq

"Griefing is playing with the primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people"

Ejecting and banning nations might be necessary as part of a legitimate endeavour to secure a region.

Your definition of griefing is straight out of the "defender propaganda" cookbook. Mine is from the NS rules.

I think if you wanted to be involved in Balder, you should have left any UCRs and fully embraced being a Sinkerite. I still think you should.

And you know what I think.

I think it's not your place to tell the Monarch of Balder what to do in her embassy. I think Rach has done more to improve Balder and make it a successful and vibrant community, than you've done in terms of all your constructive actions across the entire accumulation of your entire NS career.

I don't think you'll ever match her positive contributions to Balder, in all the GCRs you play in, so long as you play.

Prove me wrong, if you can. It starts by you putting your money where your mouth is and bunkering down to constructively contributing to a GCR, rather than merely seeking to undermine other GCRs who don't match your ideology of the week.

[Cormactopia Prime]

<snip>

I'm not responding point by point to a wall of text that is more personal attack than anything substantive.

If you folks want to run Balder in such a way that people who are more committed to a UCR backwater like The LKE are in charge rather than actual natives of Balder, that's what you'll do. That's a shame for the actual natives of Balder who are deprived of the opportunity to run their own region, but most of them choose not to participate in your off-site "community" anyway and are likely unaffected by the userite nonsense you all get up to off-site.

Stop exporting your userite subversion to other GCRs though. What you do in Balder is your business because no one cares to put the time and effort into stopping you just for Balder's sake, but your continued acts of aggression against other GCRs are acts of war.