Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

[Great Brigantia]

I've been completely up front about our intentions, how we got involved, why we got involved,

Out of curiosity, where is this posted? I'm not being snarky here, I honestly didn't see you ever post that type of explanation.

[Drakezia]

Actually, the NLO sees Balder as neutral. You're the one forcing people into categories, and frankly you appear to be in a minority even among other PRL supporters.

Try and deny it all you wish, the fact remains,

(1).Balder is not neutral.
(2).They joined the NPO. They suddenly have an embassy in Lazarus, when they had none before, and quite a few were withdrawing, made an embassy with The Pacific all of a sudden IIRC, delegate and regional flags are similar to that of the NPO and NLO.
(3).If they were neutral, why the sudden embassies. I don't think they had embassies with Communist Bloc before either. I am merely connecting the dots. If that all does not scream suspicious, then I don't know what does. If Balder was neutral, they would have no need to make a embassy with Lazarus all of a sudden when Stujenske couped the region.

Numbering and spacing mine.

1. Even if they state they are? Balder has no support for us, if they did I'd spot it.

2. Again, I am sure an NPO person would know if they joined. Your denying our words, Balder words. Congrats, here is your tinfoil hat.

3. Dunno about this one, its in there ballpark. Perhaps they actual want to give this regime a chance, unlike the world will even fathom. Trying. Change is always hated. O_O

[Zenya]

I've been completely up front about our intentions, how we got involved, why we got involved,

Out of curiosity, where is this posted? I'm not being snarky here, I honestly didn't see you ever post that type of explanation.

We never made a public statement, but I've spoken directly to the people especially on Lazarus' RMB who are making these claims to set the record straight which of course is just swept away and new theories are made up. After I saw the initial explosion in this forum I decided it was for the best to not have our thread end up filled with fighting just because we explained our decision, plus I don't really feel its announcement worthy since we only supplied I think 10 or so people myself included, which I'm not content with I might have been happy had there been 20, maybe.

[Great Brigantia]

We never made a public statement, but I've spoken directly to the people especially on Lazarus' RMB who are making these claims to set the record straight which of course is just swept away and new theories are made up. After I saw the initial explosion in this forum I decided it was for the best to not have our thread end up filled with fighting just because we explained our decision, plus I don't really feel its announcement worthy since we only supplied I think 10 or so people myself included, which I'm not content with I might have been happy had there been 20, maybe.

Okay, but if the only place you've explained it is in scattered RMB posts, you can't really be critical of anyone for not having seen those explanations and coming up with alternative theories for why The Communist Bloc is providing support to the NPO/NLO. It's your choice whether or not to provide public explanation, but if you don't you can't say, "I"ve already explained this!" Maybe, but not anywhere the rest of us have seen it.

[Consular]

And I'm curious as to why you care so much about the PRL. This coup is the same false government, just a new name and now finally with the recognition that the NPO has been in control all along. The actual coup happened long ago, to much less resistance.

Because anybody paying attention could realize that the current group that is the "PRL in Exile" is clearly not the NPO, and is actually fighting to regain sovereignty of their home and make something out of it. The reason people care about seeing those exiled PRL return is because they're the only people that are willing to work to make Lazarus something more than yet another stagnant trophy on the NPO's shelf. It's a shame that you can't grasp this, after so many pages.

There's a world of difference between not grasping and not believing. The PRL was far from liberal and I find their sudden turn to such, only after they've lost everything, to be awfully convenient and highly disingenuous. As well as, to be frank, slightly amusing. There's a certain historical harmony to a regime that was born in blood dying in it as well. Blood being illegality and banjections in this context.

As I've said before, and I think Zao noted above, there is little sovereignty to restore. The PRL was never more than a puppet state and a convenient stepping stone to what we have today. It's existence was orchestrated by the NPO, and it apparently outlived it's usefulness.

I don't support the NPO. But I also don't think their direct intervention here suddenly warrants recognition of an equally unfavourable PRL. I'm not going to choose between two poor options when I can sit comfortably and watch the drama unfold.

Had the natives of Lazarus advertised themselves as a genuine resistance rather than wishing to restore the PRLs dubious claim, they might have received a more sympathetic reception.

[RiderSyl]

Had the natives of Lazarus advertised themselves as a genuine resistance rather than wishing to restore the PRLs dubious claim, they might have received a more sympathetic reception.

Are you viewing NS from an alternate reality, where the PRL was shunned by many, instead of recognized as the legitimate government of Lazarus by nearly every important region that exists on the site?

[Great Brigantia]

Had the natives of Lazarus advertised themselves as a genuine resistance rather than wishing to restore the PRLs dubious claim, they might have received a more sympathetic reception.

In essence, despite calling themselves the PRL-in-Exile, this is what has occurred. The natives are using the framework of the PRL, but they are planning to move beyond that framework and toward liberal democracy. The PRL as we know it already, to a great degree, no longer exists, and will eventually be replaced entirely by a liberal democratic government -- but only if the natives of Lazarus are given back control of their region.

You can say that you're not taking a side, but whether you do or you don't, one side will have control of Lazarus. Wouldn't it be better for that side to be the natives who want a liberal democratic government, rather than the foreigners who want a tyrannical autocracy? Put the past aside, ask yourself that question. That's really all that matters in the current situation.

[Solorni]

Had the natives of Lazarus advertised themselves as a genuine resistance rather than wishing to restore the PRLs dubious claim, they might have received a more sympathetic reception.

Are you viewing NS from an alternate reality, where the PRL was shunned by many, instead of recognized as the legitimate government of Lazarus by nearly every important region that exists on the site?

The PRL were shunned by many though.

[RiderSyl]

Are you viewing NS from an alternate reality, where the PRL was shunned by many, instead of recognized as the legitimate government of Lazarus by nearly every important region that exists on the site?

The PRL were shunned by many though.

Consular was talking about their activity whilst in Exile, and so was I. Not about anything prior to that.
Context is key, Rach.

[Great Brigantia]

The PRL were shunned by many though.

To be clear, the PRL was shunned by some, but not all, independent regions (Balder, Europeia) and by the imperialist regions. That isn't exactly "many," though it is also an exaggeration to say they were "recognized . . . by nearly every important region that exists on the site." It was a bit of a mixed bag.

What amazes me is that those who shunned the PRL are not at least equally vocal in their condemnation of the NPO/NLO. It's clear that the NPO was the driving force behind the 2013 purge of imperialists, and it's also clear that the NPO/NLO are the ones interested in perpetuating a tyrannical autocracy in Lazarus while natives are interested in implementing liberal democracy. As we've seen again and again, liberal democracy in Feeders and Sinkers leads to more activity, more stability, and more cooperative relationships with other regions.

I think people need to be less focused on the past and more focused on the future of Lazarus. The region has a much brighter future, with much more likelihood of having a healthy, cooperative relationship with the interregional community, if native government is restored. What happened in 2013 doesn't matter nearly as much as what's going to happen in 2015.

[Durkadurkiranistan II]

What amazes me is that those who shunned the PRL are not at least equally vocal in their condemnation of the NPO/NLO. It's clear that the NPO was the driving force behind the 2013 purge of imperialists, and it's also clear that the NPO/NLO are the ones interested in perpetuating a tyrannical autocracy in Lazarus while natives are interested in implementing liberal democracy.

Im shocked that an imperialist/independent region would be more upset about imperialists/independents being purged than defenders being purged.

[Durkadurkiranistan II]

Anyway, I cheer the defender purges. Purge them, then grief their regions, then permanently dislocate their communities.

[Onderkelkia]

In essence, despite calling themselves the PRL-in-Exile, this is what has occurred. The natives are using the framework of the PRL, but they are planning to move beyond that framework and toward liberal democracy. The PRL as we know it already, to a great degree, no longer exists, and will eventually be replaced entirely by a liberal democratic government -- but only if the natives of Lazarus are given back control of their region.

Planning internal reforms is not the same thing as renouncing the mantle and framework of the PRL - including its membership of the FRA, which was an illegitimate product of the surge of defenders entering Lazarus following the illegal purge and illegal overthrow of the Emerald Kingdom.

Most of the PRL aren't genuine pre-2013 natives, but a community of defenders who made Lazarus their home as the NPO made Lazarus defender to attract support after attacking imperialists. The defenders got several things out of that partnership, including a second defender-controlled sinker region.

If they genuinely want to move on from that, they should acknowledge the PRL's illegitimacy, shed its name and reverse the transformation the PRL brought about - both internally, with a move back to a more democratic government, and in terms of foreign policy, giving up the ill-gotten gains of the NPO purge.

What amazes me is that those who shunned the PRL are not at least equally vocal in their condemnation of the NPO/NLO. It's clear that the NPO was the driving force behind the 2013 purge of imperialists, and it's also clear that the NPO/NLO are the ones interested in perpetuating a tyrannical autocracy in Lazarus while natives are interested in implementing liberal democracy.

We'll take no lectures on opposition to the NPO from the defender world.

Imperialists have been consistently making criticisms of the NPO going back to the Sovereign Confederation and Milograd's actions in TSP. The NPO targeted members of imperialist regions in retaliation - up until the latest coup, in collaboration with defenders who saw a way of attacking a mutual enemy.

Straight after Stujenske began the latest purge, the LKE came out with a statement condemning his latest actions and the Francoist-defender nexus which took over Lazarus, corrupting its politics, after the 2013 purge. That condemnation stands - against both the NPO faction and the defender faction.

The simple fact is that contempt for the NPO doesn't translate into an endorsement for the PRL.

As for the 2013 purge, the NPO were indeed the driving force, but they weren't the only people who profited from that event.

[Solorni]

Long time resident DYP just stated that he has left the PRL and has noted that Harmoneia is now in TWP with him. So Onder does have rather strong points about the PRL. I'd also like to note that the PRL has not made any overtures currently to Balder.

[Solorni]

Btw: New poll on Blood Eagling: http://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=25167

[Great Brigantia]

Planning internal reforms is not the same thing as renouncing the mantle and framework of the PRL - including its membership of the FRA, which was an illegitimate product of the surge of defenders entering Lazarus following the illegal purge and illegal overthrow of the Emerald Kingdom.

Most of the PRL aren't genuine pre-2013 natives, but a community of defenders who made Lazarus their home as the NPO made Lazarus defender to attract support after attacking imperialists. The defenders got several things out of that partnership, including a second defender-controlled sinker region.

If they genuinely want to move on from that, they should acknowledge the PRL's illegitimacy, shed its name and reverse the transformation the PRL brought about - both internally, with a move back to a more democratic government, and in terms of foreign policy, giving up the ill-gotten gains of the NPO purge.

You expect the natives of Lazarus to renounce FRA membership and the other treaty alliances gained since then in the midst of a coup d'etat? How about they just surrender to the NPO/NLO while they're renouncing and alienating all of their allies, to attract the support of people like yourself who may still decline to support them?

This community has been the contributing, native community of Lazarus for the past two years, and several members of that community have been contributing natives for far longer than that. This idea that they are not native now because they were not native in 2013 is absurd; there have been two intervening years, and the contributions many of these people have made to Lazarus have been substantial. They also constitute the only extant community of Lazarus that is both able and willing to resist NPO/NLO occupation, take back the region and, afterward, implement liberal democratic reform.

It's reasonable to expect democratic reform, but it is not reasonable to expect them to renounce and alienate allies in the midst of a coup. If that is the price that independents like Balder and Europeia and imperialists are going to ask, I hope your Feeder and Sinker allies are taking note of how little regard you have for the sovereignty of Feeder and Sinker communities.

We'll take no lectures on opposition to the NPO from the defender world.

Imperialists have been consistently making criticisms of the NPO going back to the Sovereign Confederation and Milograd's actions in TSP. The NPO targeted members of imperialist regions in retaliation - up until the latest coup, in collaboration with defenders who saw a way of attacking a mutual enemy.

Straight after Stujenske began the latest purge, the LKE came out with a statement condemning his latest actions and the Francoist-defender nexus which took over Lazarus, corrupting its politics, after the 2013 purge. That condemnation stands - against both the NPO faction and the defender faction.

The simple fact is that contempt for the NPO doesn't translate into an endorsement for the PRL.

As for the 2013 purge, the NPO were indeed the driving force, but they weren't the only people who profited from that event.

The simple fact is that there are imperialists supporting the NPO/NLO right now. 94 Block commands the military of Ainur, an imperialist region, and is the founder of Project Soul, another imperialist region, both of which are supporting the NPO/NLO. He is also in command of the military of British Isles, a region with increasing ties to the imperialist sphere, and has probably drawn support for the NPO/NLO from there as well. The Communist Bloc, a region that is better connected with imperialists than it is with actual leftists, is also providing support to the NPO/NLO. North East Somerset has been granted honorary citizenship by the NPO.

Perhaps the real reason you, NES, et al., are so obstinately refusing to support the native community of Lazarus, why NES continues this game of saying he'll support and then saying he won't, is because you have no idea how many forces you could actually provide for such an effort. You don't know how many of your people are already deployed in Lazarus with the militaries of Ainur, Project Soul, British Isles, and The Communist Bloc in support of the NPO/NLO, or you do know and are trying to conceal it. And you expect Lazarus to renounce its allies for you? What a farce.

The Feeder and Sinker allies of the independent and imperialist sphere should be terminating their relations with your sphere at this point. You are standing against the sovereignty of Lazarus, in support of the NPO/NLO, and all of this argumentation is an elaborate display of smoke and mirrors to conceal that independents and imperialists are already deployed in Lazarus supporting the rogue regime.

I'd also like to note that the PRL has not made any overtures currently to Balder.

Maybe you should speak to your Crown Prince. In any event, it's high time Balder's Feeder and Sinker allies condemn and shun your own rogue regime.

[Yao]

Maybe you should speak to your Crown Prince. In any event, it's high time Balder's Feeder and Sinker allies condemn and shun your own rogue regime.

LOL.

[Drop Your Pants]

Long time resident DYP just stated that he has left the PRL and has noted that Harmoneia is now in TWP with him. So Onder does have rather strong points about the PRL. I'd also like to note that the PRL has not made any overtures currently to Balder.

I went out the exact same way that NES and Griffin did. The main difference is I won't hold a grudge on the matter for the next 4 years

[Solorni]

So is Cormac Zapp Brannigan?

[Onderkelkia]

You don't know how many of your people are already deployed in Lazarus with the militaries of Ainur, Project Soul, British Isles, and The Communist Bloc in support of the NPO/NLO, or you do know and are trying to conceal it.

I am going to answer this point first because, in all frankness, it is a genuinely flabbergasting lie.

I know for a fact that there is not a single LKE troop deployed in Lazarus on behalf of the NPO/NLO - indeed, there is not a single LKE troop in any of the militaries of any of Ainur, Project Soul, British Isles or The Communist Bloc, let alone actually deployed in Lazarus. Moreover, the military of British Isles, even though 94 Block does command it, is not deployed in Lazarus and British Isles has announced its opposition to the coup. So this is complete rubbish.

The LKE recently had a 20 unit deployment in The Union. That concluded yesterday. Since then we have not commenced any fresh reinforcement operation. I no longer command the military of TNI, but I'm equally certain in relation to their forces. I would likewise be extremely surprised if any Albion units were deployed, as like the LKE they were deployed in full force in The Union until yesterday, an operation where the mainstream imperialist world was united.

It is pure defamation for you to suggest that we would support any such mission. If any LKE troop was involved, we would throw them out, but none are.

The simple fact is that there are imperialists supporting the NPO/NLO right now. 94 Block commands the military of Ainur, an imperialist region, and is the founder of Project Soul, another imperialist region, both of which are supporting the NPO/NLO.

Ainur has no alliance with the LKE. We have not worked with Ainur on any recent operation.

We have no relations whatsoever with Project Soul.

These are not mainstream imperialist regions, and their actions should not be taken as a reflection of LKE, TNI, Albion, KGB, etc.

He is also in command of the military of British Isles, a region with increasing ties to the imperialist sphere, and has probably drawn support for the NPO/NLO from there as well.

First, LKE and Albion terminated their diplomatic relations with British Isles in January after BI purported to terminate relations with TNI (when no BI embassy in TNI existed) over the banning of Jonewest, BI Prince of Wales and former FRA Arch-Chancellor, in TNI. The LKE has since re-opened embassy relations with BI following a full apology but has no closer relations than that; to my knowledge neither TNI nor Albion has re-opened relations.

So the idea that we are increasingly close to BI is nonsense and shows a complete lack of knowledge of BI's relations with mainstream imperialist regions.

Second, BI have announced their oppositon to the NPO's coup in Lazarus and, despite 94 Block's position there (which I agree is disturbing, after all this someone banned for life from the LKE and TNI forums), I would be extremely surprised if any BI troops were deployed in the support of the NPO in Lazarus.

Therefore, once again, your attempt to suggest that the actions of this region show the imperialist sphere is supporting the NPO is also nonsense.

The Communist Bloc, a region that is better connected with imperialists than it is with actual leftists, is also providing support to the NPO/NLO.

The LKE has no alliance with The Communist Bloc and has had no discussions in relation to Lazarus with them. This is not an imperialist region.

And you expect Lazarus to renounce its allies for you? What a farce.

We don't expect the PRL to do anything - we have come to know the disreputable conduct of that illegitimate regime quite well enough not to expect them to surrender the ill-gotten gains of the NPO's 2013 purge. It is you who has dedicated many posts in this forum trying to persuade us to support the PRL.

The Feeder and Sinker allies of the independent and imperialist sphere should be terminating their relations with your sphere at this point. You are standing against the sovereignty of Lazarus, in support of the NPO/NLO, and all of this argumentation is an elaborate display of smoke and mirrors to conceal that independents and imperialists are already deployed in Lazarus supporting the rogue regime.

This is ludicrous extremism, though coming from someone who threatened to coup TNP, TWP, Osiris and Balder for their relations with the LKE, TNI and Albion, only back in February, it does not surprise me at all that you are now calling for game-created regions to terminate their relations with us.

This is nothing more than a poor attempt to bully us for refusing to provide diplomatic and military support to an FRA member-government which has no legitimate claim to Lazarus. The LKE has withstood many attempts from you to coerce us into a particular course of action, and we will do so so again.

We are not supporting the NPO/NLO. The LKE has clearly condemned them:

In the same way that the ejection of Griffin was illegitimate, the ejection of Funkadelia was illegitimate. We protest against it, despite our own strenuous political disagreements with Funkadelia.

The difference is that our condemnation is consistently applied and so applies to the PRL over the circumstances of its creation as well.

You expect the natives of Lazarus to renounce FRA membership and the other treaty alliances gained since then in the midst of a coup d'etat? How about they just surrender to the NPO/NLO while they're renouncing and alienating all of their allies, to attract the support of people like yourself who may still decline to support them?

On the contrary, I'm not predicting that they will renounce the illegitimate product, the quid pro quo the defender world gained for dutifully supporting the NPO's 2013 purge. The "natives of Lazarus" came to Lazarus to make it a defender region; that's their purpose there - we don't expect them to reverse it.

The point is that Lazarus, before external interference by the NPO and defenders, was a neutral democracy. It's FRA membership reversed that. It stemmed from the NPO's illegal purge and the influx of defenders into Lazarus which followed it, after they'd decided on imperialists as a common enemy.

In that context, for the PRL to expect independent and imperialist regions to support them is most astonishing.

This community has been the contributing, native community of Lazarus for the past two years, and several members of that community have been contributing natives for far longer than that. This idea that they are not native now because they were not native in 2013 is absurd; there have been two intervening years, and the contributions many of these people have made to Lazarus have been substantial.

These "two intervening years" have been a period when Lazarus has effectively been under an illegal NPO-defender occupation.

The fact that this has now been replaced by a solely NPO occupation does not change the nature of what came before it.

If these people were genuinely interested in moving back to a pre-NPO Lazarus, then renouncing the PRL's mantle should be at the top of their agenda.

[North East Somerset]

Perhaps the real reason you, NES, et al., are so obstinately refusing to support the native community of Lazarus, why NES continues this game of saying he'll support and then saying he won't, is because you have no idea how many forces you could actually provide for such an effort. You don't know how many of your people are already deployed in Lazarus with the militaries of Ainur, Project Soul, British Isles, and The Communist Bloc in support of the NPO/NLO, or you do know and are trying to conceal it. And you expect Lazarus to renounce its allies for you? What a farce.

The Feeder and Sinker allies of the independent and imperialist sphere should be terminating their relations with your sphere at this point. You are standing against the sovereignty of Lazarus, in support of the NPO/NLO, and all of this argumentation is an elaborate display of smoke and mirrors to conceal that independents and imperialists are already deployed in Lazarus supporting the rogue regime.

lol, what a load of preposterous nonsense.

Europeia, Albion, LKE and TKGB had 60+ WA nations deployed in 'The Union' for the past week, on an RAL led mission. You can't have failed to notice that. The concept that any of these regions are simultaneously supporting NLO is clearly far-fetched to the extreme. If they were, Stujenske would be sitting on more than 250 endorsements and any hope of liberation quashed. Thankfully, that is not going to happen, as much as it would clearly delight you in your frustration at the lack of progress.

Lashing out at regions which offer some of the greatest potential to increase the strength of the resistance movement in the future is clearly counter-productive though Cormac. You are doing the liberation movement a great disservice.

[Great Brigantia]

Europeia, Albion, LKE and TKGB had 60+ WA nations deployed in 'The Union' for the past week, on an RAL led mission. You can't have failed to notice that.

Actually, I did, because I haven't been paying attention to R/D at all. My apologies though.

Lashing out at regions which offer some of the greatest potential to increase the strength of the resistance movement in the future is clearly counter-productive though Cormac. You are doing the liberation movement a great disservice.

And anyone who would punish the liberation movement because of my comments is so petty that it defies belief. I don't speak for the liberation movement and in fact I'm barely involved with it -- my WA nation (this one) is parked in The North Pacific. The extent of my "involvement" has been to publish articles in a Gameplay newspaper that, again, has no affiliation with any Lazarene community, and to author WA resolutions that have more to do with my more than two year long opposition to the NPO than with Lazarus. My comments here are my own, and obviously don't at all represent the Lazarene Underground State.

I'm tangentially involved, at best, so don't try to pawn anything off on me.

[North East Somerset]

And anyone who would punish the liberation movement because of my comments is so petty that it defies belief. I don't speak for the liberation movement and in fact I'm barely involved with it -- my WA nation (this one) is parked in The North Pacific. The extent of my "involvement" has been to publish articles in a Gameplay newspaper that, again, has no affiliation with any Lazarene community, and to author WA resolutions that have more to do with my more than two year long opposition to the NPO than with Lazarus. My comments here are my own, and obviously don't at all represent the Lazarene Underground State.

I'm tangentially involved, at best, so don't try to pawn anything off on me.

I'm aware of that, and wouldn't have punished the liberation movement cause of your comments.

[Consular]

I was on my phone earlier and reluctant to post, but to confirm the speculations of Onder, not a single member of the Albion Legion was deployed at any time to assist the "New Lazarene Order". We are quite organised in keeping track of deployments and our troops WAs were all accounted for. We also for accuracy's sake actually have very little overlap in membership with the regions Cormac described.

I can understand it if Cormac didn't notice we were deployed in full elsewhere, but I did find the baseless slander a bit worrying. We would never support the NPO in such an action and the insinuation we would saddens me a tad.

[Of Goats and Men]

New Things

Our government is currently discussing what it at least considers to be an extremely unique system of governance that might be the most radical yet in the GCRs. It is very democratic and inclusive although also regionalist at the same time. Only one detail has been released:

Detail is the detail released!

While "unique" is difficult to do in NS, once the details are hammered out we believe that this will indeed be unique at least amongst the GCRs. Also, there is one real hint which is the title "New Things" which might be too difficult to glean information from but there is a real life reference in it to a governmental system. In any case, if anyone could figure that one out who doesn't have insider information will be considered very smart indeed.