Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

[The Church of Satan]

Yes, my explanation was "very official sounding" and "political". What else is it meant to be?

You are arguing that Balder should approach The Rejected Realms because a faction within TRR's citizenry wants warmer relations with Balder. Fundamentally, why should the Government of Balder act to satisfy a feeling which has arisen not within Balder, but within The Rejected Realms?

The citizens of The Rejected Realm have no claim to influence Balder's diplomatic stance. The Government of Balder has its own citizens, views, and interests to think about. We have no representative role for the citizenry of TRR. You say Balder not approaching TRR in response to the views of TRR citizens is "very immature". In reality, TRR's citizens expecting Balder to adapt our position for them and solve their own political disagreements is the immaturity. The citizens of TRR have no right to expect Balder to try a new diplomatic strategy. They can only expect that of their own government.

On the substantive issue of relations between Balder and The Rejected Realms, I can only repeat the relevant section of my previous post:

As far as Balder is concerned, relations are not going to improve until and unless there is an end to unprovoked hostile and disparaging remarks from TRR's executive government officials and official outlets about Balder. I doubt that is going to happen because there are too many people who dislike Balder in TRR. If there was a change in TRR's attitude, we might entertain a change, but as things stand, Balder is content with the existing state of affairs. We are not going to either try to affect or allow our own policy to be affected by, internal discussions within TRR.

You're twisting my words, purposely as always. I'm not saying Balder should "bend" to the will of foreigners or the "big bad defenders". I'm saying that there is hope for better relations between our two regions. Do Balder's citizens believe that the region's stance on TRR is to be a big ol' grump because what, fratt & Guy, don't like you and you and don't like them and you chose to take a joke not just seriously but as an official statement from the government? You act like TRR has remained the same since 2013 when the FRA and imperialists were at war with each other. You certainly haven't changed since then. Being so rigidly stuck in the past isn't helping Balder because that's never helped any region.

TRR, however, has definitely changed since 2013. Last year was the advent of a new, progressive era for TRR, led by players that are either moving forward from the stagnant policies of our predecessors or are new enough that they can't be weighed down by the stubbornness of TRRs past players. The time for change has begun not only for TRR but for all of GP. 2018 is a new age for all regions. An era for players ready to escape the burdens of their distant past. In the face of that GCRs, not just Balder have to make a choice for themselves; cement themselves in the bitterness of the past or move forward to a bright future.

[Cormactopia Prime]

TRR, however, has definitely changed since 2013. Last year was the advent of a new, progressive era for TRR, led by players that are either moving forward from the stagnant policies of our predecessors or are new enough that they can't be weighed down by the stubbornness of TRRs past players. The time for change has begun not only for TRR but for all of GP. 2018 is a new age for all regions. An era for players ready to escape the burdens of their distant past. In the face of that GCRs, not just Balder have to make a choice for themselves; cement themselves in the bitterness of the past or move forward to a bright future.

Ugh, must your every post in Gameplay these days be a saccharine campaign ad for your next run for the Delegacy in TRR? We get it.

[The Church of Satan]

TRR, however, has definitely changed since 2013. Last year was the advent of a new, progressive era for TRR, led by players that are either moving forward from the stagnant policies of our predecessors or are new enough that they can't be weighed down by the stubbornness of TRRs past players. The time for change has begun not only for TRR but for all of GP. 2018 is a new age for all regions. An era for players ready to escape the burdens of their distant past. In the face of that GCRs, not just Balder have to make a choice for themselves; cement themselves in the bitterness of the past or move forward to a bright future.

Ugh, must your every post in Gameplay these days be a saccharine campaign ad for your next run for the Delegacy in TRR? We get it.

On the contrary, I have no current plans for re-election to the delegacy. I'm also not much for planning ahead. I've always been better at wingin' it.
I know it's hard to believe coming from a GPer but not everyone is career oriented. Some of us are actually honest.

[Onder Kelkia]

The Independent Joint Command Coalition is the shared military of Balder, Europeia and the LKE, consisting of their respective regional militaries. That is not inaccurate. It is more than a flag, with its own separate command positions, ranks, rules, operational plans and Discord infrastructure. On the other hand, its objectives come from the regional governments and its resources (soldiers) come entirely from the regional militaries. It is inaccurate for you to suggest that our regions do not also have regional militaries. They each have regional capabilities which can undertake operations without involvement of the IJCC. It is also inaccurate for you to suggest that IJCC violates our military sovereignty, when each government has a veto on all operations performed.

I think you misread my point. Actually, no. I think you are deliberately misinterpreting my point to keep your train of thought rolling, as I know you understand what I mean. Though, it seems to be a common theme at this point. I am pointing out that your words in this case are inaccurate at best and suggest a rather different picture than reality. The IJCC is no more Balder's military than CAIN was Euro's military back in the day.

No, I think you are deliberately misunderstanding mine in an attempt to find points to disagree with.

It is far from "inaccurate" to say that the IJCC is the shared military (or armed forces) of Balder, Europeia and the LKE. It combines the members of their regional militaries into a single force with its own identity, structure, ranks, rules and operations as well as flag. That is a military, albeit one serving and representing multiple regions. All its officers and actions work on behalf of and represent all three regions equally. The nature, purpose, structure, and scope are entirely different from CAIN, which was a vehicle for anti-Nazi missions. The IJCC is a general-purpose command structure designed to fulfil all the shared objectives of the three regions, which are aligned sufficiently that most operations can be performed together. The IJCC being the chief military instrument of the Realm of Balder, and the other IJCC regions, is not incompatible with the individual regional military organisations still existing and being capable of undertaking separate operations on the occasions when they choose to do so. The set-up of the IJCC is the same in legal terms as the UIAF, which performed virtually all military operations for the LKE, TNI and Albion, and where each region also retained the right to do separate missions.

I'm saying that there is hope for better relations between our two regions.

I do not share your optimism, unless there is a meaningful change in the policies and attitudes of TRR's politicians.

you and you and don't like them and you chose to take a joke not just seriously but as an official statement from the government?

It may have been a "joke" in the sense that it was intended to annoy, rather than a practical plan, but the underlying hostility was genuine.

You act like TRR has remained the same since 2013 when the FRA and imperialists were at war with each other.

On the contrary, I have formed my assessment solely based on the actions and words of TRR members in 2017 and 2018.

Last year was the advent of a new, progressive era for TRR, led by players that are either moving forward from the stagnant policies of our predecessors or are new enough that they can't be weighed down by the stubbornness of TRRs past players.

This is not the picture I recognise insofar as the current administration's outlook is concerned. Perhaps internal debates in TRR may have been going in a different direction previously and may revert to that, but it is not for Balder to get involved with. We can only deal with what is in front of us.

[Unibot III]

If you're interested in seeing relations repaired between TRR and Balder, will you, as Statsminister of Balder, do your share to see reconciliation through?

Or do you expect relations to be repaired without taking co-responsibility (as a former couper of TRR) for the parting of the ways?

....

As far as Balder is concerned, relations are not going to improve until and unless there is an end to unprovoked hostile and disparaging remarks from TRR's executive government officials and official outlets about Balder. I doubt that is going to happen because there are too many people who dislike Balder in TRR. If there was a change in TRR's attitude, we might entertain a change, but as things stand, Balder is content with the existing state of affairs. We are not going to either try to affect, or allow our own policy to be affected by, internal discussions within TRR.

How'll about this: Onderkelkia removes "Delegate of the Rejected Realms" from his forum signature and the Rejected Realms in turn publishes an official state apology for Neq's joke? Seems a reasonable trade-off to me.

One momentary act of political maturity for another.

[Syberis]

If you're interested in seeing relations repaired between TRR and Balder, will you, as Statsminister of Balder, do your share to see reconciliation through?

Or do you expect relations to be repaired without taking co-responsibility (as a former couper of TRR) for the parting of the ways?

How'll about this: Onderkelkia removes "Delegate of the Rejected Realms" from his forum signature and the Rejected Realms in turn publishes an official state apology for Neq's joke? Seems a reasonable trade-off to me.

One momentary act of political maturity for another.

Remember, Balder and Osiris ultimately fell apart because Onder believed there was no need to meet in the middle when it came to an apology. I'd be shocked if he did the same for a region he hates as much as TRR.

[Unibot III]

If you're interested in seeing relations repaired between TRR and Balder, will you, as Statsminister of Balder, do your share to see reconciliation through?

Or do you expect relations to be repaired without taking co-responsibility (as a former couper of TRR) for the parting of the ways?

Remember, Balder and Osiris ultimately fell apart because Onder believed there was no need to meet in the middle when it came to an apology. I'd be shocked if he did the same for a region he hates as much as TRR.

I'll let Onderkelkia demonstrate his commitment to peace and reconciliation for himself.

[Tim-Opolis]

Leave it to Unibot to deflate the desire to attack Balder.

[The Church of Satan]

I do not share your optimism unless there is a meaningful change in the policies and attitudes of TRR's politicians.

Maybe you should stop being so pessimistic and get out of your own way then because if you did you'd see that there has been a radical change in TRRs policies and attitudes, especially with regards to its political figures. If anything Zao's (a raider of all people) election to delegate was a shining sign of it. He was the first raider delegate in TRR since Kandarin. Additionally, there are multiple raider citizens in TRR.

It may have been a "joke" in the sense that it was intended to annoy, rather than a practical plan, but the underlying hostility was genuine.

I know Glacikaldr pretty well. Certainly better than you do. If you'd seen the last delegate election you'd know that Neq doesn't lean one way or the other towards Balder. A boring stance but certainly not one of hostility. Although Neq has expressed an interest in fixing relations between Balder and TRR on multiple occasions.

On the contrary, I have formed my assessment solely based on the actions and words of TRR members in 2017 and 2018.

You mean the misinterpreted words of one citizen's joke and a news article you just didn't like. :-/

This is not the picture I recognize insofar as the current administration's outlook is concerned. Perhaps internal debates in TRR may have been going in a different direction previously and may revert to that, but it is not for Balder to get involved with. We can only deal with what is in front of us.

You're not even looking at the picture. You're still looking at fratt and misinterpreting his election to the delegacy as the entire citizenry's outlook towards Balder. The problem with that misinterpretation (besides being a misinterpretation) is that in a democracy opposing ideas can exist not just simultaneously but also side-by-side.

[Onder Kelkia]

If you're interested in seeing relations repaired between TRR and Balder, will you, as Statsminister of Balder, do your share to see reconciliation through?

Or do you expect relations to be repaired without taking co-responsibility (as a former couper of TRR) for the parting of the ways?

Who said that Balder is "interested in seeing relations repaired between TRR and Balder" or that we expected relations to be repaired at all?

I expect nothing of the sort. Given the circumstances, I think that is unrealistic.

Balder is not seeking to re-open discussions. We are content as thing stand. We chose to end relations because we prefer to have no relations with TRR than maintaining relations with them while their officials and official outlets exhibit hostility to Balder. Relations would not have collapsed if they could be repaired without TRR changing their position and their outlook on Balder, which is unlikely, due to the resentments and dislike that exist among several TRR members. The discussion is merely occurring because The Church of Satan asked why Balder has done nothing in response to other TRR citizens wanting warmer relations, to which the answer is TRR's own government is uninterested and it is not Balder's job to satisfy TRR's citizens. Balder has no particular desire to re-open relations with TRR at present and, even if we did, we could only undertake negotiations with a government; not with private individuals.

The breakdown in relations to their present state - without embassies and without a degree of diplomatic civility - occurred due to a negative references to Balder contained in an edition of TRR Times in March 2018. The invasion of The Rejected Realms in February 2012 was part of a legitimate war waged by The New Inquisition against the Founderless Regions Alliance. It has nothing to do with Balder's decision to terminate embassy relations in 2018 and the historical fact of my previous delegacy is not something that can be altered by negotiations, however much it continues to pain some members of TRR.

---

At this point, I am merely repeating Balder's position, in the face of The Church of Satan, a Vice Delegate and Media Officer of TRR, and others asking Balder to reverse our position. This is not proper. No region would conduct any diplomatic talks in the GP forum (let alone talks it has not requested).

[Syberis]

If you guys want to have a chuckle, replace "Balder" with "Onder" in his posts. The intent is the same and it's much funnier.

[The Church of Satan]

I've not initiated any diplomatic talks. If I were acting in an official capacity (FYI I am not authorized to) we'd be talking on Discord right now. To be more accurate, I'd probably be talking to a member of your cabinet you chose to speak on your behalf since you wouldn't entertain the notion out of personal spite towards two or three citizens of TRR. I'm speaking as myself, as a TRR citizen with a vested interest in my region's future. Otherwise, I wouldn't be speaking about this in the GP forum. Although I am a longstanding citizen and noteworthy figure in TRR you can somehow claim to be more knowledgeable of the political climate in TRR than not just me but of literally every citizen in TRR. The idea that you know my region better than I do is so glaringly false and yet you still use it as a means to justify your own outdated politics. And I do mean outdated. More than that, it's the decrepit manifesto of a bygone age.

[Unibot III]

It's supremely rich for the Queen of Balder to expect the Rejected Realms to punish a deputy minister for a joke, when her Statsminister also treats the Rejected Realms' democracy as a joke.

historical fact of my previous delegacy is not something that can be altered by negotiations, however much it continues to pain some members of TRR.

I don't believe anyone in the Rejected Realms expects you to rewrite history but rather: to do your small part to make amends for the invasion of the Rejected Realms that you perpetrated. Until you do the latter or until Balder holds you responsible for your past hostile activity towards the Rejected Realms, I think you and the rest of Balder ought to be able to decipher why it is the Rejected Realms will not seek reconciliation unilaterally. No self-respecting reject is going to let you take a piss on their back and tell them it's raining. You and your majesty can go peddle your rank hypocrisy to someone cares. You take the Rejected Realms' security seriously, the Rejected Realms will take your security seriously. Until then, the Rejected Realms Constitution doesn't prohibit schadenfreude and it doesn't prohibit a sense of humour. So bugger off.

[The Church of Satan]

-snip-

Onder's invasion of TRR is before most of the active citizenry in TRR and so long ago that the only people who even take it into consideration are probably fratt, Guy and Wop.

[Syberis]

I wOnder what his strategy is by seemingly going through a list of regions one-by-one and sabotaging Balder's remaining standing there. What GCR friends does Balder have left?

[Unibot III]

-snip-

Onder's invasion of TRR is before most of the active citizenry in TRR and so long ago that the only people who even take it into consideration are probably fratt, Guy and Wop.

No shit need taketh, Church! When someone spits in your face, you shouldn't interpret that as water under the bridge. I don't care if it was a hundred years ago, they're not remorseful now and they don't care about the Rejected Realms' security or its sovereignty now. When those kind of people call a pity party in Gameplay over a joke, you blow an official raspberry in their monarch's face and tell 'em to jog on.

Rejects have never had any time or patience for people who don't respect them.

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

I wOnder what his strategy is by seemingly going through a list of regions one-by-one and sabotaging Balder's remaining standing there. What GCR friends does Balder have left?

I think TNP is the only one.

[The Church of Satan]

No shit need taketh, Church! When someone spits in your face, you shouldn't interpret that as water under the bridge. I don't care if it was a hundred years ago, they're not remorseful now and they don't care about the Rejected Realms' security or its sovereignty now. When those kinds of people call a pity party in Gameplay over a joke, you blow an official raspberry in their monarch's face and tell 'em to jog on.

Rejects have never had any time or patience for people who don't respect them.

If TRR can come as far as it has then I believe Balder can also make progressive change within itself. Our regions have ignored each other like children for long enough. As far as I'm concerned Balder doesn't need to show remorse about something Onder did six years ago. Nor do I think they should have to apologize for the ancient mistakes of their staatsminister (did I spell that right?).

[Altinsane]

The IJCC is Balder's military (as much as it is Europeia's military or the LKE's military). IJCC has no aims or resources of its own beyond those of the three regions, so it is wrong to consider this as a separate entity. As for decision-making authority, the Queen of Balder holding the Chairmanship of IJCC would rather seem to give Balder authority over the LKE and Europeia's militaries, not the other way round

So are you saying that the IJCC is the only formal military of any of these regions? That, in fact, there is no military sovereignty of these regions? That's what you're certainly implying.

Lol I mean idk, not to point out the things you didn't mean to say but absolutely did say them:

As for decision-making authority, the Queen of Balder holding the Chairmanship of IJCC would rather seem to give Balder authority over the LKE and Europeia's militaries, not the other way round.

We would seem to have been correct about the sovereignty of Euro's military after all, unless Onder would like to take this statement back and change his story another time. :)

[KhanterWinters]

([url=SNIP]Image[/url])

The Realm of Balder is delighted to announce the conclusion of the October 2018 Storting elections and the formation of the Government for the coming term.

Following a competitive race, incumbent legislators Ond... Snip.

[Snip]

[... Snip] In full, the ministers appointed by the Statsminister are as follows:

Minister of Foreign Affairs – Zander Cerebella
[...]

... Snip.

Just a big question (Ha I had to ninja delete... posting with wrong nation), Does the New MoFA is with the faculties to know they personnel, and the faculties to answer a question of no more of 2 minutes via TG or Discord Direct Messages?

Or I will need to rotten myself in my chair in the waiting...?

[Wabbitslayah]

Maybe you should stop being so pessimistic and get out of your own way then because if you did you'd see that there has been a radical change in TRRs policies and attitudes, especially with regards to its political figures. If anything Zao's (a raider of all people) election to delegate was a shining sign of it. He was the first raider delegate in TRR since Kandarin. Additionally, there are multiple raider citizens in TRR.

Err, I left raiding. Did a temporary stint in the RRA, then afterwards decided to take a break from R/D altogether (outside of the Legio). So, unaligned I guess?

At best you could classify me as a Raiderist delegate.

[The Church of Satan]

Maybe you should stop being so pessimistic and get out of your own way then because if you did you'd see that there has been a radical change in TRRs policies and attitudes, especially with regards to its political figures. If anything Zao's (a raider of all people) election to delegate was a shining sign of it. He was the first raider delegate in TRR since Kandarin. Additionally, there are multiple raider citizens in TRR.

Err, I left raiding. Did a temporary stint in the RRA, then afterwards decided to take a break from R/D altogether (outside of the Legio). So, unaligned I guess?

At best you could classify me as a Raiderist delegate.

That's still a significant leap. After Kandarin none of our delegates would even consider raiding. I wouldn't count myself towards that leap since even now I've never taken part in a raid. They were all hardcore defenders.

[Wabbitslayah]

Err, I left raiding. Did a temporary stint in the RRA, then afterwards decided to take a break from R/D altogether (outside of the Legio). So, unaligned I guess?

At best you could classify me as a Raiderist delegate.

That's still a significant leap. After Kandarin none of our delegates would even consider raiding. They were all hardcore defenders.

Catalyse was a long time raider and was a member of the UIAF (like me) once upoun a time (via Albion). She's hardly a hardcore defender

Anyways, this is going offtopic, so, I'm gonna poof.

[Onder Kelkia]

Lol I mean idk, not to point out the things you didn't mean to say but absolutely did say them:

As for decision-making authority, the Queen of Balder holding the Chairmanship of IJCC would rather seem to give Balder authority over the LKE and Europeia's militaries, not the other way round.

We would seem to have been correct about the sovereignty of Euro's military after all, unless Onder would like to take this statement back and change his story another time.

No, the statement is correct, but doesn't affect the sovereignty of any IJCC region over its military.

First, an officer representing Balder having authority over Europeia and LKE forces, as well as the forces of Balder, does not deprive Europeia or the LKE of military sovereignty. Authority can be delegated to another region through a joint command arrangement without negating sovereignty. That is inherent in any multi-regional command structure of this kind. IJCC expressly involves the delegation of military command authority for IJCC operations to the Chairman of the IJCC. Military sovereignty is defined as constituting the final say over the participation of forces for any given military deployment. The IJCC treaty provides this final say over the deployment of each region's forces to each regional commander-in-chief, by granting them ultimate control of their forces in all scenarios, as well as giving each region's Supreme Military Council representative the right to veto/end any IJCC operation at any stage. Sovereignty is also guaranteed by the right of each IJCC region to pursue military operations using single-region commanders rather than using the IJCC.

Delegating authority does not mean a surrender of military sovereignty. Sovereignty is more fundamental than authority in a specific context.

Second, if your argument is that an IJCC region loses sovereignty over its military when it grants authority to an officer representing another region, then it would not have applied to Europeia's military sovereignty at the point when Osiris terminated its treaty with Europeia. Writinglegend is a Europeian officer.

Third, Cormac earlier argued that the citizens of Balder "deserve people who are actually dedicated to Balder and its interests leading their government, not people who are more concerned about what benefits Europeia, The LKE, or the IJCC. [...] When they're running the IJCC (Solorni), [...] they aren't giving everything they can to Balder, and they aren't giving Balder what Balder deserves." It is therefore appropriate to point out that the Queen of Balder serving as Chairman of the IJCC awards the leading role in running the operations of our shared military to an officer of Balder and this extends Balder's influence, not diminishes it as he was suggesting. If a region gains an important role/position in an inter-regional organisation, then obviously that is a feather in their cap, so to speak. It is therefore very silly that Solorni's position in IJCC has been portrayed as if the Queen of Balder serving as IJCC Chairman detracts from Balder's interests relative to those of Europeia or the LKE. Subject to the overriding authorities of each region's commander-in-chief and Supreme Military Council members, the Chairman of the IJCC has broad authority to issue orders to IJCC soldiers from all three regions according to their judgement of how best to fulfil our shared objectives. That inevitably involves making decisions over which there can be room for disagreement and where different officers and regions may have different preferences. The Chairman's position is powerful in situations where the regional commanders-in-chief and Supreme Military Council do not choose to intervene, which is most situations, but each regional government can always assert itself at will.

[Reventus Koth]

It is therefore appropriate to point out that the Queen of Balder serving as Chairman of the IJCC awards the leading role in running the operations of our shared military to an officer of Balder and this extends Balder's influence, not diminishes it as he was suggesting. If a region gains an important role/position in an inter-regional organisation, then obviously that is a feather in their cap, so to speak. It is therefore very silly that Solorni's position in IJCC has been portrayed as if the Queen of Balder serving as IJCC Chairman detracts from Balder's interests relative to those of Europeia or the LKE.

This is only true if you interpret the imperialist plague that has secured a stranglehold on Balder to be the arbiter of "Balder's interests". Let's not play games: Balder has no interests relative to those of Europeia or the LKE, because they're all just arms of the same beast. Balder has your interests, and just because you make the decisions for Balder, that you speak for Balder's government, doesn't necessarily mean you're acting in the interest of Balder. You're acting in the interest of the overall imperialist machine.

I don't even think that's a bad thing either, obviously I respect you Onder and we've worked together well in the past. But it's the same old crap that has always kept me raider and never imperialist; this weird smoke and mirrors illusion that everything you do has to have some made up justification.

When you declare war on defender regions, you do so under paper thin justifications instead of just admitting you want to fight defenders.

When your imperialist conglomerate military's interests no longer align with those of your long standing ally and sister sinker, you take the first opportunity you can to capitalize on a conflict ostensibly unrelated to Balder and somehow twist yourself into a victim to justify ending relations and unpersoning their members.

When you manipulate a GCR into becoming a permanent jewel in the crown of your empire, you have to do it under the guise of your regime being a sovereign entity which actually holds leverage over its colonial overlords.

It's exhausting to listen to. Just drop the act already.