Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

[Onder Kelkia]

as TRR thinks it is acceptable to make casual remarks about couping Balder

That characterisation is incorrect. I explicitly denied that TRR has any wish to coup Balder or see it couped.
As I am the Delegate and the head of government, that should override anyone else's authority as to what "TRR thinks". Ubi maior minor cessat.

If you really want you can say that "Junior TRR officials think it is acceptable to make casual remarks about couping Balder" instead.

The issue there isn't whether TRR plans to coup Balder, but whether TRR thinks casual remarks supporting a coup of Balder are acceptable.

If Glacikaldr was the equivalent of an assistant minister, rather than the equivalent of a deputy minister, or a deputy officer for a different portfolio, then the characterisation might be disproportionate, but he is the deputy head of foreign affairs. If Balder's Deputy Foreign Minister made an unsanctioned post suggesting that they supported a coup of another sinker, even one we are on bad terms with, then I would almost certainly dismiss them immediately.

[Cormactopia Prime]

If Balder's Deputy Foreign Minister made an unsanctioned post suggesting that they supported a coup of another sinker, even one we are on bad terms with, then I would almost certainly dismiss them immediately.

That's somewhat hard to believe, given that Balder's entire government supported a coup of another Sinker for months.

This is not to mention the fact that you led another userite region's invasion of the Rejected Realms in 2011 and still boast about it in your signature.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

Onder, you're the pot calling the kettle black.


Anyways, seriously, no one in TRR would coup Balder, it would be a waste of time.

[Kyorgia]

Onder, you're the pot calling the kettle black.


Anyways, seriously, no one in TRR would coup Balder, it would be a waste of time.

I for one really enjoy wasting my time

[Miss Bad Life Choices]

Onder:

The Government of Balder's position should now be clear on all factual and other points, so I am not intending to indulge this discussion any further.

Also Onder:

They deserve people who are actually dedicated to Balder and its interests leading their government, not people who are more concerned about what benefits Europeia, The LKE, or the IJCC. When people are spending more time on other regions than they are on Balder, they are in fact neglecting it. When they're running the IJCC (Solorni) or still in the leadership of The LKE (Onder) or running intelligence for at least three regions (NES), they aren't giving everything they can to Balder, and they aren't giving Balder what Balder deserves.

We neither spend more time on other regions than Balder, nor serve the interests of any other region when making decisions on behalf of Balder.

Solorni commanding IJCC forces is very far from not spending time on Balder. The IJCC is Balder's military (as much as it is Europeia's military or the LKE's military). IJCC has no aims or resources of its own beyond those of the three regions, so it is wrong to consider this as a separate entity. As for decision-making authority, the Queen of Balder holding the Chairmanship of IJCC would rather seem to give Balder authority over the LKE and Europeia's militaries, not the other way round. In terms of the LKE, while it is my home region and I retain a say on decisions there as Emperor Emeritus, I have spent very little time on day-to-day business within the LKE since my abdication (partly to its detriment, in recent months when Emperor Theoden has been unavoidably absent, creating a gap at the top), whereas I am actively involved in running the internal affairs of Balder on a day-to-day basis. In no way have I neglected any of my governmental responsibilities. I think it no exaggeration to say that I am one of the most hands-on Statsministers, in terms of the activities of the government, that Balder has ever had. Like the Queen and myself, North East Somerset is more involved in Balder than he is in either Europeia or the LKE.

Inconveniently for our foreign critics, this tale of neglect is just not borne out by the reality of the situation.

It is absurd to see people with no or minimal connection to Balder question the dedication and commitment of those who have served Balder for years. Balder will make decisions based on the views and interests of our own community, rather than being affected by critics with no stake in our region. In all frankness, Balder could not be less interested in the opinions of the part of the gameplay community which intensely dislikes us, however nosiy it is.

If you're gonna state Balder's position is clear and that you aren't gonna get involved any further, you might as well as stick with it.

[Onder Kelkia]

If Balder's Deputy Foreign Minister made an unsanctioned post suggesting that they supported a coup of another sinker, even one we are on bad terms with, then I would almost certainly dismiss them immediately.

That's somewhat hard to believe, given that Balder's entire government supported a coup of another Sinker for months.

First, please note the word 'unsanctioned' in my earlier post. We wouldn't dismiss a deputy for supporting a specific action that the region officially backed.

Second, we supported and recognised the Undead Dominion. Presumably you think that was right, as you Cormac supported it as well, before we did. As we assessed the Khanate to be the Undead Dominion's successor, we were bound by treaty to support it. I know you disagreed with our assessment, but the Treaty of Regenesis was specifically worded so that successor governments did not have to be legally enacted (unlike the majority of our other treaties). Balder simply upheld our specific treaty obligations, which we do without fail in all cases according to the terms of the treaty concerned.

Third, with regard to the invasion of The Rejected Realms, I held no office in Balder at the time I carried that invasion out. Indeed, I was due to become Chief Justice of Balder, but was blocked from taking office soon after the invasion of TRR. My signature does not boast about anything, but refers to the hard fact that I am a former Delegate of The Rejected Realms as an officer of The New Inquisition, as recorded in the region's site history. Since 2016, Balder's policy in any case has been that TNI was justified in waging war on the FRA, but that the end of war removed justification for further hostilities.

Onder:

The Government of Balder's position should now be clear on all factual and other points, so I am not intending to indulge this discussion any further.

[...]
If you're gonna state Balder's position is clear and that you aren't gonna get involved any further, you might as well as stick with it.

Cormac raised a new argument regarding the amount of time that I, the Queen and the Crown Prince were putting into Balder, while Church of Satan raised a new point regarding discussions within The Rejected Realms on their relationships with Balder. As such, I decided to intervene on those points.

[Syberis]

The IJCC is Balder's military (as much as it is Europeia's military or the LKE's military). IJCC has no aims or resources of its own beyond those of the three regions, so it is wrong to consider this as a separate entity. As for decision-making authority, the Queen of Balder holding the Chairmanship of IJCC would rather seem to give Balder authority over the LKE and Europeia's militaries, not the other way round

So are you saying that the IJCC is the only formal military of any of these regions? That, in fact, there is no military sovereignty of these regions? That's what you're certainly implying.

[Onder Kelkia]

The IJCC is Balder's military (as much as it is Europeia's military or the LKE's military). IJCC has no aims or resources of its own beyond those of the three regions, so it is wrong to consider this as a separate entity. As for decision-making authority, the Queen of Balder holding the Chairmanship of IJCC would rather seem to give Balder authority over the LKE and Europeia's militaries, not the other way round

So are you saying that the IJCC is the only formal military of any of these regions? That, in fact, there is no military sovereignty of these regions? That's what you're certainly implying.

No. Nowhere does anything you have quoted imply that IJCC is the "only" military under which Balder, Europeia and the LKE forces can act.

The word "only", in fact, is one inserted by you for your own purposes.

Balder has the Jomsvikings, the LKE has the Imperial Army and Europeia has the Europeian Republican Navy. When these militaries operate together under a unified chain of command (headed by the Chairman, subject to oversight and decisions by the representatives of the three regions in the Supreme Military Council), they combine as a single force entitled the Independent Joint Command Coalition, which is a military belonging to all three regions equally. The IJCC treaty is explicit that each individual regional military retains the full ability to undertake its own operations outside of IJCC command structures.

[Frattastan IV]

The issue there isn't whether TRR plans to coup Balder, but whether TRR thinks casual remarks supporting a coup of Balder are acceptable.

If Glacikaldr was the equivalent of an assistant minister, rather than the equivalent of a deputy minister, or a deputy officer for a different portfolio, then the characterisation might be disproportionate, but he is the deputy head of foreign affairs. If Balder's Deputy Foreign Minister made an unsanctioned post suggesting that they supported a coup of another sinker, even one we are on bad terms with, then I would almost certainly dismiss them immediately.

I have no legal or ethical obligation to police a comment as irrelevant as that, more so as Balder is neither an ally nor a region we have diplomatic relations with. I am sceptical you would hold yourself to the standard you mentioned: worse things have been said and done between regions, including by yourself (or other members of Balder's senior leadership) against TRR.

That you choose to fake outrage and concoct a scandal about a one-line forum post while disregarding your own history is wholly unreasonable (while typical).

[Kyorgia]

Onder buddy we all know you are gonna post so just get on with it

[Onder Kelkia]

The issue there isn't whether TRR plans to coup Balder, but whether TRR thinks casual remarks supporting a coup of Balder are acceptable.

If Glacikaldr was the equivalent of an assistant minister, rather than the equivalent of a deputy minister, or a deputy officer for a different portfolio, then the characterisation might be disproportionate, but he is the deputy head of foreign affairs. If Balder's Deputy Foreign Minister made an unsanctioned post suggesting that they supported a coup of another sinker, even one we are on bad terms with, then I would almost certainly dismiss them immediately.

I have no legal or ethical obligation to police a comment as irrelevant as that, more so as Balder is neither an ally nor a region we have diplomatic relations with.

If you are not prepared to police comments by your officials, then you are saying that it is acceptable for your officials to make the comments concerned.

Therefore, the statement of mine you originally challenged - "TRR thinks it is acceptable to make casual remarks about couping Balder" - is accurate.

The Rejected Realms has no obligation to respect Balder's sovereignty as we have no treaty or even relations. I agree with you 100%. That is the same reasoning that Balder uses when we invade inactive UCRs we have no treaty with. However, just because you have no obligation to do something doesn't mean it is a good idea to do the opposite. As TRR now endorses military aggression against regions you have no treaties with, you should know that there can be long-tong effects involving the regions you are hostile towards. If you are going to tolerate such remarks by your officials, then you have to accept that Balder will take umbrage, classify TRR as unfriendly and adapt our decisions accordingly (in this case by abandoning plans to un-proscribe TRR). If you are going to tolerate such remarks, don't be surprised when Balder infers that "TRR thinks is acceptable to make casual remarks about couping Balder".

I am sceptical you would hold yourself to the standard you mentioned: worse things have been said and done between regions, including by yourself (or other members of Balder's senior leadership) against TRR.

On the contrary, if a member of my government made an unsanctioned post calling for a coup of another sinker, I would take action. I would be alarmed by their willingness to express support for the invasion of a major region like another GCR when Balder itself has taken no position on the matter and I would be concerned to meaningfully illustrate Balder's distance from what had been said, unless of course I was prepared to take responsibility for the remarks.

The standard concerned is not about morality. There is a difference between an officially-sanctioned action taken in retaliation for previous wrongdoing, and allegedly unsanctioned remarks such as those by Glacikaldr. In the case of my participation in The New Inquisition's invasion of The Rejected Realms, I held no office in Balder. As far as TNI was concerned, it was not an unsanctioned action, but something which TNI openly performed and supported on the basis that it was justified, as well as having forewarned The Rejected Realms (like all members of the FRA) of the threat of invasion by declaring war on them. TNI fully accepted responsibility for the actions concerned. In stark contrast to TNI's open hostility to TRR, you argued earlier that TRR does not wish to see a coup of Balder. If you want to maintain the position that you have no such wishes credibly, then the onus is on you to ensure that officials with foreign policy roles in your region (such as the Deputy Officer of Foreign Affairs, the equivalent of a deputy foreign minister) reflect that in their remarks.

[Frattastan IV]

As TRR now endorses military aggression against regions you have no treaties with

To infer that from a single post by a junior official, notwithstanding any statement to the contrary by higher-ranking members, or the absence of any sign pointing to that in our policymaking venues, or our past policy and history of interactions with other regions, is ridiculous.

Think what you will. We do not endorse military aggression (as if that needed to be said).
And we aren't going around to call for, or support, or undertake ourselves any plot to invade or coup Balder regardless of the diplomatic incompetence of its Statsminister.
To argue otherwise is ridiculous, and more sensible regions know that.

[Onder Kelkia]

As TRR now endorses military aggression against regions you have no treaties with

To infer that from a single post by a junior official, notwithstanding any statement to the contrary by higher-ranking members,

On the contrary, the selected segment from my post is inferred not merely from Glacikaldr's post, but from your own contribution:

I have no legal or ethical obligation to police a comment as irrelevant as that, more so as Balder is neither an ally nor a region we have diplomatic relations with.

At its core, your argument is that it is fine for TRR's representatives to endorse military aggression against regions it has no treaties with.

regardless of the diplomatic incompetence of its Statsminister.

Objectively, the diplomatic incompetence on display here is the apparent negligence of The Rejected Realms's Deputy Foreign Minister in straying from their Delegate's preferred policy line rooted in defender moralism and the refusal of Delegate to enforce that line, while still desperately claiming to maintain it.

[RiderSyl]

Cormac raised a new argument regarding the amount of time that I, the Queen and the Crown Prince were putting into Balder, while Church of Satan raised a new point regarding discussions within The Rejected Realms on their relationships with Balder. As such, I decided to intervene on those points.

I'm sure when you start getting beaten back on those points too, then Balder's position will be clear again and you won't "indulge" us anymore.

[The Church of Satan]

Firstly, Balder has received no contact from The Rejected Realms on this. It's not our job to prompt TRR into doing something that most of its members don't want to do. If TRR did want a change, it is for them to contact Balder first; not for Balder to see that there is an internal debate there and contact TRR. Balder will not interfere in TRR affairs. As far as Balder is concerned, relations are not going to improve until and unless there is an end to unprovoked hostile and disparaging remarks from TRR's executive government officials and official outlets about Balder. I doubt that is going to happen because they're too many people who dislike Balder in TRR. If there was a change in TRR's attitude, we might entertain a change, but as things stand, Balder is content with the existing state of affairs. We are not going to try either to affect or allow our own policy to be affected by, internal discussions within TRR.

Secondly, as I mentioned in the previous discussion, Balder was re-considering the proscription status of The Rejected Realms as part of an effort to review and trim the number of proscribed regions. However, as TRR thinks it is acceptable to make casual remarks about couping Balder, that won't be going ahead.

Official contact, yeah you are definitely correct. Not even unofficial contact. However, I've been saying TRR should fix its relations with Balder for a long time. It was part of my campaign for delegate back in May. It wasn't hidden either. Anybody could see it since it was in The Assembly section of the forum which is a public place. Every GPer worth their salt checks in during the elections to see what's going on and where everyone stands. GPers gather whatever information they can to stay current with the goings on of GCRs. So it would be a lie to say that Balder's cabinet wasn't aware of interest from some of TRRs citizens to fix relations with Balder. Especially after five months have passed.

[Onder Kelkia]

Firstly, Balder has received no contact from The Rejected Realms on this. It's not our job to prompt TRR into doing something that most of its members don't want to do. If TRR did want a change, it is for them to contact Balder first; not for Balder to see that there is an internal debate there and contact TRR. Balder will not interfere in TRR affairs. As far as Balder is concerned, relations are not going to improve until and unless there is an end to unprovoked hostile and disparaging remarks from TRR's executive government officials and official outlets about Balder. I doubt that is going to happen because they're too many people who dislike Balder in TRR. If there was a change in TRR's attitude, we might entertain a change, but as things stand, Balder is content with the existing state of affairs. We are not going to try either to affect or allow our own policy to be affected by, internal discussions within TRR.

Secondly, as I mentioned in the previous discussion, Balder was re-considering the proscription status of The Rejected Realms as part of an effort to review and trim the number of proscribed regions. However, as TRR thinks it is acceptable to make casual remarks about couping Balder, that won't be going ahead.

Official contact, yeah you are definitely correct. Not even unofficial contact. However, I've been saying TRR should fix its relations with Balder for a long time. It was part of my campaign for delegate back in May. It wasn't hidden either. Anybody could see it since it was in The Assembly section of the forum which is a public place. Every GPer worth their salt checks in during the elections to see what's going on and where everyone stands. GPers gather whatever information they can to stay current with the goings on of GCRs. So it would be a lie to say that Balder's cabinet wasn't aware of interest from some of TRRs citizens to fix relations with Balder. Especially after five months have passed.

If you re-read my post, you will see that I didn't claim that we were unaware of it. Rather, I explained precisely why we took no action as a result.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Breaking news: Balder annouses government two

"We will have we are number one as our national anthem."- some guy

[Frattastan IV]

At its core, your argument is that it is fine for TRR's representatives to endorse military aggression against regions it has no treaties with.

Your idea of what "the core" of my argument is ignored the "as irrelevant as that" bit.
That statement - a tongue-in-cheek post made more to annoy you than to suggest advocacy for a coup - would have trouble being considered as "sedition" in many NS courts.

So, no, TRR's representatives should not endorse aggression against other regions, as that can be misunderstood as official policy (and I promptly corrected your reading). However, the post you raised so much of a fuss about doesn't even come close to representing "an endorsement of military aggression", or anything beyond low-level amusement. I may take the extra steps of condemning even that if it was a friendly region that I wanted to be particularly careful about, but I don't owe you that courtesy (which is quite a different thing from saying that we would break from the principle of non-aggression - it's the distinction between friendliness and indifference, rather than that between alliance and hostility).

[The Church of Satan]

If you re-read my post, you will see that I didn't claim that we were unaware of it. Rather, I explained precisely why we took no action as a result.

And it's all very official sounding too. Lots of political mumbo-jumbo to try and place the blame entirely on TRR while stating that instead of doing something to fix it you also claim to continue being part of the problem. It's a very immature approach. Especially since if Balder refuses to try and just waits for TRR to suck up and beg then nothing will get done. Try being part of the solution and you might be surprised to see that progress can be made. Who'd have thought?

[Queen Yuno]

(Trivia: Syl's blonde girl flag keeps reminding me of Rach's old blonde avatar, and I keep thinking "Whoa why is Rach saying this" then realize it's Sylvia. Is it just me or does anyone else feel this?)
(just so used to seeing Syl as pink)

also props to Onder for actually engaging in these forum debates when he could just as easily not reply. He does not have to provide a reason, he can just silent PNG those who are not his allies. But here he's actually providing reasons, long elaborate ones at that.

Even I'm reluctant to provide a reason why I banned someone because I worry about NS players twisting what I said into what I never actually said.

Disclaimer: speaking of misinterpreted posts, after doing some reading: Fratt, Neq and TRR never meant to call for the coup/overthrow of Balder. That's just not true in TRR's case.

[Onder Kelkia]

However, the post you raised so much of a fuss about doesn't even come close to representing "an endorsement of military aggression", or anything beyond low-level amusement.

This is what Glacikaldr said:

A coup? Oh... nevermind then.

As stated previously, expressing disappointment at the absence of a coup is equivalent to expressing support for a coup. A coup is military aggression. Thus, Glacikaldr's post unequivocally endorsed military aggression against Balder. Whether its purpose was "low-level amusement" or not, that is what it means.

If you re-read my post, you will see that I didn't claim that we were unaware of it. Rather, I explained precisely why we took no action as a result.

And it's all very official sounding too. Lots of political mumbo-jumbo to try and place the blame entirely on TRR while stating that instead of doing something to fix it you also claim to continue being part of the problem. It's a very immature approach. Especially since if Balder refuses to try and just waits for TRR to suck up and beg then nothing will get done. Try being part of the solution and you might be surprised to see that progress can be made. Who'd have thought?

Yes, my explanation was "very official sounding" and "political". What else is it meant to be?

You are arguing that Balder should approach The Rejected Realms because a faction within TRR's citizenry want warmer relations with Balder. Fundamentally, why should the Government of Balder act to satisfy a feeling which has arisen not within Balder, but within The Rejected Realms?

The citizens of The Rejected Realm have no claim to influence Balder's diplomatic stance. The Government of Balder has its own citizens, views and interests to think about. We have no representative role for the citizenry of TRR. You say Balder not approaching TRR in response to the views of TRR citizens is "very immature". In reality, TRR's citizens expecting Balder to adapt our position for them and solve their own political disagreements is the immaturity. The citizens of TRR have no right to expect Balder to try a new diplomatic strategy. They can only expect that of their own government.

On the substantive issue of relations between Balder and The Rejected Realms, I can only repeat the relevant section of my previous post:

As far as Balder is concerned, relations are not going to improve until and unless there is an end to unprovoked hostile and disparaging remarks from TRR's executive government officials and official outlets about Balder. I doubt that is going to happen because there are too many people who dislike Balder in TRR. If there was a change in TRR's attitude, we might entertain a change, but as things stand, Balder is content with the existing state of affairs. We are not going to either try to affect, or allow our own policy to be affected by, internal discussions within TRR.

[Syberis]

At its core, your argument is that it is fine for TRR's representatives to endorse military aggression against regions it has no treaties with.

Your idea of what "the core" of my argument is ignored the "as irrelevant as that" bit.
That statement - a tongue-in-cheek post made more to annoy you than to suggest advocacy for a coup - would have trouble being considered as "sedition" in many NS courts.

So, no, TRR's representatives should not endorse aggression against other regions, as that can be misunderstood as official policy (and I promptly corrected your reading). However, the post you raised so much of a fuss about doesn't even come close to representing "an endorsement of military aggression", or anything beyond low-level amusement. I may take the extra steps of condemning even that if it was a friendly region that I wanted to be particularly careful about, but I don't owe you that courtesy (which is quite a different thing from saying that we would break from the principle of non-aggression - it's the distinction between friendliness and indifference, rather than that between alliance and hostility).

Fratt, be careful, you're merely a low-level delegate, and nowhere near as influential and able to speak for the region as a Deputy Officer of Foreign Affairs. He's made up his mind based on the behavior of such a serious officer.

Also, Onder, You're the one who said the IJCC was Balder's (And Euro's, and the LKE's) military, not me. Perhaps you should put it correctly, and say that the IJCC is an org that essentially serves as a shared flag that the militaries occasionally fly under under specific circumstances of shared interest. Miscommunications like that are rather sticky, don't you think?

[Onder Kelkia]

Also, Onder, You're the one who said the IJCC was Balder's (And Euro's, and the LKE's) military, not me. Perhaps you should put it correctly, and say that the IJCC is an org that essentially serves as a shared flag that the militaries occasionally fly under under specific circumstances of shared interest. Miscommunications like that are rather sticky, don't you think?

The Independent Joint Command Coalition is the shared military of Balder, Europeia and the LKE, consisting of their respective regional militaries. That is not inaccurate. It is more than a flag, with its own separate command positions, ranks, rules, operational plans and Discord infrastructure. On the other hand, its objectives come from the regional governments and its resources (soldiers) come entirely from the regional militaries. It is inaccurate for you to suggest that our regions do not also have regional militaries. They each have regional capabilities which can undertake operations without involvement of the IJCC. It is also inaccurate for you to suggest that IJCC violates our military sovereignty, when each government has a veto on all operations performed.

[Syberis]

Also, Onder, You're the one who said the IJCC was Balder's (And Euro's, and the LKE's) military, not me. Perhaps you should put it correctly, and say that the IJCC is an org that essentially serves as a shared flag that the militaries occasionally fly under under specific circumstances of shared interest. Miscommunications like that are rather sticky, don't you think?

The Independent Joint Command Coalition is the shared military of Balder, Europeia and the LKE, consisting of their respective regional militaries. That is not inaccurate. It is more than a flag, with its own separate command positions, ranks, rules, operational plans and Discord infrastructure. On the other hand, its objectives come from the regional governments and its resources (soldiers) come entirely from the regional militaries. It is inaccurate for you to suggest that our regions do not also have regional militaries. They each have regional capabilities which can undertake operations without involvement of the IJCC. It is also inaccurate for you to suggest that IJCC violates our military sovereignty, when each government has a veto on all operations performed.

I think you misread my point. Actually, no. I think you are deliberately misinterpreting my point to keep your train of thought rolling, as I know you understand what I mean. Though, it seems to be a common theme at this point. I am pointing out that your words in this case are inaccurate at best and suggest a rather different picture than reality. The IJCC is no more Balder's military than CAIN was Euro's military back in the day.

Though, it is rather enjoyable to participate in this thread the way I have. My posts generally receive such a response that it's what makes what little time I spend on NS each day nowadays enjoyable. For the investment, this thread has been quite entertaining.

[Unibot III]

As far as Balder is concerned, relations are not going to improve until and unless there is an end to unprovoked hostile and disparaging remarks from TRR's executive government officials and official outlets about Balder. I doubt that is going to happen because there are too many people who dislike Balder in TRR. If there was a change in TRR's attitude, we might entertain a change, but as things stand, Balder is content with the existing state of affairs. We are not going to either try to affect, or allow our own policy to be affected by, internal discussions within TRR.

How'll about this: Onderkelkia removes "Delegate of the Rejected Realms" from his forum signature and the Rejected Realms in turn publishes an official state apology for Neq's joke? Seems a reasonable trade-off to me.

One momentary act of political maturity for another.