Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

[Erithaca]

Can I just say that unlike half of the people you accuse of this, I legitimately do support a coup of Balder.

This is something that I would... be interested in.

[Onder Kelkia]

Only issue with Balder's PNGs the way I see it is a lack of a super easy way of differentiating between OOC PNGs and IC ones, but I'm sure you can find out easily if you were checking.

To provide clarification on this point, Balder does not use persona non grata declarations for out-of-character reasons. In cases of out-of-character misconduct, an administrative ban is applied. There are distinct groups for persona non grata and banned individuals. Persona non grata declarations are imposed by the Government, rather than the administrative team, typically where a non-citizen is deemed to have made comments or performed actions which are hostile to Balder in nature from a gameplay perspective. It is a routine process for sanctioning such persons and is usually done without fanfare.

[RiderSyl]

There are distinct groups for persona non grata and banned individuals. Persona non grata declarations are imposed by the Government, rather than the administrative team, typically where a non-citizen is deemed to have made comments or performed actions which are hostile to Balder in nature from a gameplay perspective. It is a routine process for sanctioning such persons and is usually done without fanfare.

In order to PNG Wym, however, one must set the bar for "comments or performed actions which are hostile to Balder" so low that it saps all meaning from the act of persona non grata declarations. Whomever in Balder is responsible for the Wym declaration has declawed any future declarations, and reduced a Balder PNG to a simple IC ban that only someone that really wanted to participate in Balder would care about. If you haven't noticed, Onder, the amount of people that fit that criteria is dropping fast, in part due to perceived government mismanagement like this.

This only harms Balder itself.

[Onder Kelkia]

There are distinct groups for persona non grata and banned individuals. Persona non grata declarations are imposed by the Government, rather than the administrative team, typically where a non-citizen is deemed to have made comments or performed actions which are hostile to Balder in nature from a gameplay perspective. It is a routine process for sanctioning such persons and is usually done without fanfare.

In order to PNG Wym, however, one must set the bar for "comments or performed actions which are hostile to Balder" so low that it saps all meaning from the act of persona non grata declarations. Whomever in Balder is responsible for the Wym declaration has declawed any future declarations, and reduced a Balder PNG to a simple IC ban that only someone that really wanted to participate in Balder would care about.

The purpose of a persona non grata declaration in Balder is to prevent access to our forums and Discord server for those who are hostile to Balder. We have never expected persona non grata declarations to provide any other kind of deterrent effect, largely because that is not how people in NationStates work.

If any person chooses to be antagonistic to Balder, then they should not expect us to welcome them on our territory. We don't welcome those who insult us.

The purpose is practical. Anyone who speaks or acts in a manner which is unfriendly or antagonistic to Balder is liable to banned. It has worked like this way for years. Wymondham's case is not exceptional. I know little about him, but we judge actions and comments objectively. In any case, his behaviour since the persona non grata declaration, not least the appalling post about IJCC for which he apologised to Europeia, assures me that the decision was correct.

If you haven't noticed, Onder, the amount of people that fit that criteria is dropping fast, in part due to perceived government mismanagement like this.

This only harms Balder itself.

You are assuming that Balder is losing potential members that we actually want by turning off the armchair critics here in the Gameplay forum.

We manage quite well without.

Balder draws in members who can commit to being consistently and unconditionally loyal to our region and its external position. For the most part, Balder is uninterested in motivating existing cosmopolitan members of other gameplay regions (be they UCR or GCR) to join us, with the exception of those individuals who have pre-existing respect for Balder and our values (and, however loud critics from disgruntled regions moan, there remains a constituency of players who have respect for Balder, in addition to the steady, organic flow of citizenship applications we receive from revived nations). The Government of Balder designs policies to engage and serve our own community, not to subjugate ourselves to the social structure of the gameplay community at large.

[Altinsane]

Wym's PNG is petty on absurd levels. He's legitimately just a good kid. Wym was a citizen of Balder when he made that comment. This is a statement that he made in mid-April that went entirely in acknowledged until the end of May, after he'd lost citizenship. He just got quietly proscribed for something a month after the fact for a comment he made in passing critiquing Balder's support of the LWU coup on Lazarus.

What in the blue blazes. He certainly wasn't an empowered citizen. He was someone you were waiting in the shadows to stab at as soon as his protection ended because you had beef over a tiny comment.

[Onder Kelkia]

Wym's PNG is petty on absurd levels. He's legitimately just a good kid. Wym was a citizen of Balder when he made that comment. This is a statement that he made in mid-April that went entirely in acknowledged until the end of May, after he'd lost citizenship. He just got quietly proscribed for something a month after the fact for a comment he made in passing critiquing Balder's support of the LWU coup on Lazarus.

What in the blue blazes. He certainly wasn't an empowered citizen. He was someone you were waiting in the shadows to stab at as soon as his protection ended because you had beef over a tiny comment.

He was "an empowered citizen": when he was a citizen. Obviously, he ceased to be an empowered citizen when he wasn't a citizen.

If he was dis-empowered as a citizen, then it was by his own extreme inactivity within Balder. If he had concerns about the Government of Balder's actions in mid-April, the correct course of action would have been to raise his concerns within Balder's political system through the routes available to him. He had numerous options at that point. Instead, when approached by the Government with a request to support a Balder military operation, not only did he refuse the request and continuing deploying against Balder, but he then added insult to injury by inappropriately insulting Balder in the Gameplay forum. If he objected to our actions as a citizen of Balder, the appropriate option would have been to criticise the government's decision on Osiris - in Balder.

Once he lost citizenship, he lost the protections that came with it and had no right to expect to be welcome in Balder. A person earns their citizenship by contributing. The Government of Balder did nothing to force Wymondham to be inactive in Balder and lose the protections of citizenship as a consequence.

Furthermore, it is factually incorrect for you to state that we "were waiting in the shadows to stab at as soon as his protection ended". His citizenship was revoked for inactivity on 9 May, whereas persona non grata status was not imposed until 28 May. The matter was reviewed in the intervening period.

[Pergamon]

The purpose of a persona non grata declaration in Balder is to prevent access to our forums and Discord server for those who are hostile to Balder.

The relationship between Balder and the Pacific could have been different, it is just that certain individuals in those regions have fundamental disagreements, which render all diplomacy impossible. The same yet again occurred with Osiris, who as sister Sinker could have nothing less but the best, most faithful and longest GCR partner in Balder's history.

In other words: it is not Balder itself, it is rather some individuals within Balder that believe for example, that I Pergamon for example would be Defender and the Pacific some kind of hardcore defender Nexus which I would have perverted it into. Of course that's ridiculous, and of course that ridiculousness is the whole driving force behind the policies of individuals that currently are deciding these very uplifting and amusing strategic approaches of Balder. These unquestionably successful strategic approaches led Balder to cut ties with both Osiris and the Pacific, hurt Balder's PR further by being known to be the last external supporter of the LWU power grab in Lazarus, has led their state announcements become a valuable source of entertainment for those that seek it and has led actions of justice and security, which initially would be the reasoning behind a PNG, to become nothing but a meme.

Of course we may further continue to discuss the greatness that is Balder in this thread and how the "Defender-Francoists" are gathering like vultures to vocally attack the unremarkable active, vibrant and powerful Sinker of Balder. As we all know that those that are pointing out actual shortcomings, which do not even necessarily got anything to do with completely irrelevant spherical bickering, must all be the advocates of defenderist ideas.

You made your bed.

[RiderSyl]

The purpose of a persona non grata declaration in Balder is to prevent access to our forums and Discord server for those who are hostile to Balder. We have never expected persona non grata declarations to provide any other kind of deterrent effect, largely because that is not how people in NationStates work.

Then I was mistaken. This decision has not declawed PNGs in Balder. The act of PNG declarations in Balder never had any claws in the first place.

If any person chooses to be antagonistic to Balder, then they should not expect us to welcome them on our territory. We don't welcome those who insult us.

Again, you have set the bar so low for what constitutes an unforgivable insult that nobody should think they are welcome in Balder. That is not just the message you send to NSGP. It is the message you send to your own, current denizens.

The purpose is practical. Anyone who speaks or acts in a manner which is unfriendly or antagonistic to Balder is liable to banned. It has worked like this way for years. Wymondham's case is not exceptional. I know little about him, but we judge actions and comments objectively. In any case, his behaviour since the persona non grata declaration, not least the appalling post about IJCC for which he apologised to Europeia, assures me that the decision was correct.

Using behavior after a PNG declaration to justify the PNG declaration is severely disingenuous, due to the emotionally manipulative nature of it. A PNG would no doubt cause the person declared such to react negatively. The logic behind using that negative reaction to justify the action is ignorant of human behavior, at best.

You are assuming that Balder is losing potential members that we actually want by turning off the armchair critics here in the Gameplay forum.

We manage quite well without.

You are increasing the amount of armchair critics of Balder that exist, and thus reducing the amount of potential members. What if I told you I was considering applying for citizenship in Balder prior to this mess?

Balder draws in members who can commit to being consistently and unconditionally loyal to our region and its external position. For the most part, Balder is uninterested in motivating existing cosmopolitan members of other gameplay regions (be they UCR or GCR) to join us, with the exception of those individuals who have pre-existing respect for Balder and our values (and, however loud critics from disgruntled regions moan, there remains a constituency of players who have respect for Balder, in addition to the steady, organic flow of citizenship applications we receive from revived nations). The Government of Balder designs policies to engage and serve our own community, not to subjugate ourselves to the social structure of the gameplay community at large.

This is a fluffed-up, lengthy regurgitation of "we don't need armchair critics". Again, you are increasing the amount of critics and reducing the amount of potential members by mismanaging these affairs.

[Onder Kelkia]

You made your bed.

Yes, Balder voted to expel The Pacific from the GCR Sovereignty Accords and, yes, Balder chose to terminate its alliance with Osiris.

It is regrettable that these decisions were necessary, but we are confident they were correct under the circumstances.

By the time those decisions were taken, the alliances had sadly become meaningless due to the fundamental disagreements that existed. They were paper alliances at best. The hostility brought to the fore by the end of the treaties existed beforehand among individuals in both Osiris and the NPO.

You are assuming that Balder is losing potential members that we actually want by turning off the armchair critics here in the Gameplay forum.

We manage quite well without.

You are increasing the amount of armchair critics of Balder that exist, and thus reducing the amount of potential members. What if I told you I was considering applying for citizenship in Balder prior to this mess?

I can tell you that you very likely would have been denied in view of comments you have made regarding Balder and its allies in the past. Even if your recent commentary has been broadly more favourable, it would have been equally difficult to be confident about your long-term loyalties.

In all honesty, I have denied applications from individuals with much less history of criticising Balder and its allies throughout their careers.

Fundamentally, our target audience is not existing cosmopolitan players from other gameplay regions (whether UCRs or GCRs), unless their careers demonstrate their willingness to be consistently loyal to Balder and its external position whatever the trends in NSGP are. We are happy without.

[Syberis]

Daily reminder that the Osiris treaty fell apart because Balder blew a minor criticism of Euro's treaty texts out of proportion, and refused to back down when called out on it.

I'm reminded of a certain Feeder's most polarizing member in Onder's logic in this thread.

[Onder Kelkia]

Daily reminder that the Osiris treaty fell apart because Balder blew a minor criticism of Euro's treaty texts out of proportion, and refused to back down when called out on it.

It was not a minor criticism, it related to a treaty between Balder and Europeia, the statement more generally pertained to the IJCC (an organisation of which Balder is a part) and Balder had every right to voice its view on those issues. Osiris's hostile reaction to Balder voicing its views was a symptom sadly.

Key voices in Osiris, both you and Cormac, were vocally ill-disposed to Balder beforehand. Furthermore, in Osiris's legislative discussion on terminating its treaty with Europeia, which was publicly available at the time, contempt for Balder and IJCC in general was as evident as disagreement with Europeia.

I am not intending to rehash the Balder-Osiris treaty termination discussion again, but needless to say Balder has a different view of it from you.

---

The Government of Balder's position should now be clear on all factual and other points, so I am not intending to indulge this discussion any further.

[Cormactopia Prime]

If the differences between Balder and Osiris are so severe, and if you are so uninterested in cosmopolitans with memberships in other regions (particularly these ones), may I ask why Balder's Crown Prince hasn't resigned his citizenship in Osiris? We will find a way to muddle through without him somehow.

[DYP]

The Government of Balder's position should now be clear on all factual and other points, so I am not intending to indulge this discussion any further.

See you next election report for the same joyful debates.

[RiderSyl]

I can tell you that you very likely would have been denied in view of comments you have made regarding Balder and its allies in the past. Even if your recent commentary has been broadly more favourable, it would have been equally difficult to be confident about your long-term loyalties.

In all honesty, I have denied applications from individuals with much less history of criticising Balder and its allies throughout their careers.

Do you not realize the risk to Balder? Less and less differing opinions on how the region should be run leads to a larger and larger organizational blind spot, with more people sharing the same exact deficits in perspective. The fact nobody thought twice about the Wym PNG is evidence of this in effect.

Fundamentally, our target audience is not existing cosmopolitan players from other gameplay regions (whether UCRs or GCRs), unless their careers demonstrate their willingness to be consistently loyal to Balder and its external position whatever the trends in NSGP are. We are happy without.

Ignorance is bliss, I'm afraid. You may convince yourself that you are just excluding cosmo players, but you're excluding regionalists that could aid Balder as well. Regionalists whose views do not align near-identically with pre-existing views in Balder.

The Government of Balder's position should now be clear on all factual and other points, so I am not intending to indulge this discussion any further.

Cowardly of you.

[Syberis]

Apparently Balder has been aware of my disdain longer than I have, as I haven't really been disdainful of the region as a whole until Onder and NES' meltdown over the treaty.

[RiderSyl]

Apparently Balder has been aware of my disdain longer than I have, as I haven't really been disdainful of the region as a whole until Onder and NES' meltdown over the treaty.

You said something that exceeded Onder's Balder-criticism ratelimit.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I can tell you that you very likely would have been denied in view of comments you have made regarding Balder and its allies in the past. Even if your recent commentary has been broadly more favourable, it would have been equally difficult to be confident about your long-term loyalties.

In all honesty, I have denied applications from individuals with much less history of criticising Balder and its allies throughout their careers.

Do you not realize the risk to Balder? Less and less differing opinions on how the region should be run leads to a larger and larger organizational blind spot, with more people sharing the same exact deficits in perspective. The fact nobody thought twice about the Wym PNG is evidence of this in effect.

Fundamentally, our target audience is not existing cosmopolitan players from other gameplay regions (whether UCRs or GCRs), unless their careers demonstrate their willingness to be consistently loyal to Balder and its external position whatever the trends in NSGP are. We are happy without.

Ignorance is bliss, I'm afraid. You may convince yourself that you are just excluding cosmo players, but you're excluding regionalists that could aid Balder as well. Regionalists whose views do not align near-identically with pre-existing views in Balder.

He doesn't care. None of this is about what's best for Balder, it's about what's best for his userite ideology and agenda. What's unfortunate is how transparently obvious that is, but rather than doing something about it, Solorni -- who has given years to Balder -- has allowed herself to be coopted into "leading" the IJCC instead of doing what's best for Balder and finally removing Onder and his ilk from the positions they use to advance foreign interests.

This is what it looks like when Feeders and Sinkers allow themselves to be infested with userites, especially when they give them positions of power.

[RiderSyl]

He doesn't care. None of this is about what's best for Balder, it's about what's best for his userite ideology and agenda. What's unfortunate is how transparently obvious that is, but rather than doing something about it, Solorni -- who has given years to Balder -- has allowed herself to be coopted into "leading" the IJCC instead of doing what's best for Balder and finally removing Onder and his ilk from the positions they use to advance foreign interests.

The man who killed the LKE is going to kill Balder.
It's really a shame.

[Syberis]

He doesn't care. None of this is about what's best for Balder, it's about what's best for his userite ideology and agenda. What's unfortunate is how transparently obvious that is, but rather than doing something about it, Solorni -- who has given years to Balder -- has allowed herself to be coopted into "leading" the IJCC instead of doing what's best for Balder and finally removing Onder and his ilk from the positions they use to advance foreign interests.

The man who killed the LKE is going to kill Balder.
It's really a shame.

Oh shit you're gonna be PNG now. Probably already are.

Can we get a confirmation?

[RiderSyl]

The man who killed the LKE is going to kill Balder.
It's really a shame.

Oh shit you're gonna be PNG now. Probably already are.

Can we get a confirmation?

Virtually everyone is already PNG from Balder. It's just a question of whether Balder makes it official.

[Syberis]

Oh shit you're gonna be PNG now. Probably already are.

Can we get a confirmation?

Virtually everyone is already PNG from Balder. It's just a question of whether Balder makes it official.

You'll never get a proper confirmation either.

I'm sad. My wall is gonna have a bad, half-baked NSGP forum post on it instead of a proper declaration. Should I post the picture here or... Where?

[Altinsane]

Sad. As I told Balderans, they played the imperialist game, and they lost. If that's the sort of thing you're going to dabble around in, you have to watch your back - it's too easy to become a tool of someone else. They found themselves in a moment of weakness, needed extra help, and the help did what imperialists do. It's a shame that one bleak moment has stretched into years of inactivity, stagnancy, and bended knees at the behest of LKE. Sad now that they so adamantly argue that this is stability. Stable is a two-fold word. Solorni's position in Balder is stable, certainly, but the word is also a measure of health. Balder is not healthy. It's been deteriorating for years. I don't think any of us are going to have any luck convincing Onder to let his trophies go. But I hope the best for Balder. Change is hard, but when it works, it's breathtaking; something that both of Balder's most closely related sister Sinkers can attest. Your home shouldn't be a place that you're fed up with, saddled by, feel silenced in, or have to apologize for. But that isn't how it has to be, and I hope Balder chooses better. In the mean time, I'm done talking to Onder. It's been thrilling to watch him rehash creative new retellings of the same stories, but you can only listen to so many versions before you can guess what happens next. Good luck out there. If you need me, I'm around.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Sad. As I told Balderans, they played the imperialist game, and they lost. If that's the sort of thing you're going to dabble around in, you have to watch your back - it's too easy to become a tool of someone else. They found themselves in a moment of weakness, needed extra help, and the help did what imperialists do. It's a shame that one bleak moment has stretched into years of inactivity, stagnancy, and bended knees at the behest of LKE. Sad now that they so adamantly argue that this is stability. Stable is a two-fold word. Solorni's position in Balder is stable, certainly, but the word is also a measure of health. Balder is not healthy. It's been deteriorating for years. I don't think any of us are going to have any luck convincing Onder to let his trophies go. But I hope the best for Balder. Change is hard, but when it works, it's breathtaking; something that both of Balder's most closely related sister Sinkers can attest. Your home shouldn't be a place that you're fed up with, saddled by, feel silenced in, or have to apologize for. But that isn't how it has to be, and I hope Balder chooses better. In the mean time, I'm done talking to Onder. It's been thrilling to watch him rehash creative new retellings of the same stories, but you can only listen to so many versions before you can guess what happens next. Good luck out there. If you need me, I'm around.

Honestly, if there are people in Balder, or who were in Balder, who feel this way -- and I have no reason to doubt Altino, she's always been a straight shooter -- they should talk to Solorni. Solorni is, at the end of the day, the only one who can do anything about Balder's present condition.

Should Balder choose healthy change, as Osiris and Lazarus have in the past, I'm happy to help with it as I have in Osiris and Lazarus.

[Tim-Opolis]

I think the past years have proven that Rach has no plans on doing anything but being complicit to Onder's agenda.

[The Church of Satan]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Tim. I will say that Rach is definitely the person to look to for significant change in Balder though. She's the levelheaded, rational person that Balder needs. I'd trust her to do something about it eventually.