Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

[North East Somerset]

Onder, all I’ve seen here is that Balder uselessly inserted itself into a conflict between a GCR ally and a UCR ally and chose to make a big deal out of something that barely if it even concerned you at all. You never had to get involved here. You never had to throw out Osiris. Osiris and Balder splitting all happened because you couldn’t keep your real interests concealed.

If you wanted to prove that your place in Balder isn’t committed to advancing the UCR agenda, you’re really doing a terrible job. The only one I’ve seen even make an effort in reality is Rach. You just tossed out an old ally for an ally that is solidly in your sphere. Are you openly revealing your intention to advocate for the classic Userite agenda on purpose? That’s what I see, and I assure you I’m not the only one.

And now the fanatical Francoist fantasies come out. Ignore years of convention - actually, this is nothing to do with military gameplay, it's all about the "classic Userite agenda". What exactly this classic agenda is, or indeed what it could possibly be, is not material. Who is leading it, what are it's objectives, what is the end goal? Frankly no one has any idea, because its completely contrived. But nonetheless, the point is, its an agenda - and it involves userites. So it must be bad!

Rach meanwhile, despite serving as Minister of Foreign Affairs in Europeia, is actually trying to save Balder from the Userite agenda. Possibly a deliberate plant in Europeia to weaken the region and subjugate it to Balder's will, even though Balder is part of the the userite agenda - oh shit its all fallen apart. I mean how does this even make sense in your head Xoriet?

[Cormactopia Prime]

The various individuals and factions who don't want Balder to succeed will no doubt continue to spew their rubbish.

There are very few people, if any, who don't want Balder to succeed. Personally, I would like to see Balder thrive as a truly sovereign Sinker.

What many of us don't want is for the userite-imperialist project in the GCRs to succeed. The failure of the userite-imperialist project is not only necessary to preserve the sovereignty and security of all the other Feeders and Sinkers, it's also necessary to secure the success of Balder. Balder will only be successful when it is liberated from userite-imperialist hegemony and allowed to flourish as a sovereign Sinker ruled exclusively by its natives, pursuing the interests of Balder first, rather than the interests of userite-imperialist regions like Europeia and The LKE.

I'm personally quite committed -- more committed than ever, really -- to the liberation of Balder from the userite-imperialist menace.

[RiderSyl]

Well, I'd suggest presenting these reasons to the wider world soon, because Balder is looking like a joke right now to the face of NSGP. Although, that isn't a surprise. Balder never changes.

We don't make foreign policy to please the people in this forum or the NSGP Discord server.

Cool. So we won't be seeing any more posts from you on this topic, then, since you don't care about NSGP?

[Mommy Yuno]

I have comments in response to this statement (as a non-Osiris but still concerned player,) but Balder prefers YunYun not to comment on foreign-affairs publicly so I'll PM them

[Consular]

I like that you think so highly of me Onder, but speaking very honestly here, the reason Albion wanted to leave the UIAF was you. I didn't force anything. Happy to remain the boogeyman though if that suits you

Highlighting your resentments and your gradual drift towards Defenderism as a result is no compliment.

Well I mean defending and disliking the LKE are both good things, so it seems pretty complimentary to me eh.

Ultimately, the UIAF with Albion as a member was on borrowed time once Cerebella stopped being King of TNI, because Albion only joined UIAF because Cerebella became King of TNI. Without his personal role, it was never going to be sustainable and your resentment provided the perfect trigger.

Yes I'm sure it had nothing to do with pretty much everyone hating you. It was just "unsustainable". Do you ever get tired? It's gotta be tiring doing this song and dance where you lie over and over to others and to yourself.

My statement, which as I recall made everyone in Osiris rather upset, was taken pretty much word for word from someone else. I wonder who eh?

The reason that the UIAF needed to issue a statement was a result of your earlier conduct and the resulting unacceptable, insulting statements towards the UIAF as a whole in their legislature, as a result of their concerns relating specifically to your own behaviour. Osiris was already furious with you by then.

Hmmm. Think you might be missing something here love. Oh right, this part:

Also as a point of history -- "Ironically" as you say -- my treatment of Osiris during the ISRA incident was actually following clear instructions from someone else.

WAIT. Did you not know? Oh my god lol

[Onderkelkia]

Ultimately, the UIAF with Albion as a member was on borrowed time once Cerebella stopped being King of TNI, because Albion only joined UIAF because Cerebella became King of TNI. Without his personal role, it was never going to be sustainable and your resentment provided the perfect trigger.

Yes I'm sure it had nothing to do with pretty much everyone hating you. It was just "unsustainable". Do you ever get tired? It's gotta be tiring doing this song and dance where you lie over and over to others and to yourself.

It is impossible for me to "lie to myself" and others over what was in your heads. As it happened, Albion never communicated any concerns to TNI or the LKE in the life of the UIAF, so it is not as if one would know. All I can do is examine the facts and make appropriate inferences from the evidence.

Clearly individuals within the leadership of Albion, you foremost among them as a leading instigator of Albion's exit, harboured great resentment towards me. The causes of that resentment are another question entirely, as indeed is the separate question of whether you were right and correct in those feelings rather than behaving irrationally. I happen to think that your resentment was connected to my role in warning you for your misconduct and poor performance over an extended period of time, and the diplomatic troubles this created with The North Pacific, Osiris and Europeia.

To the extent that anything else was relevant in creating "hatred" for me, it was disputes within TNI over the terms on which Harshhaven would succeed Cerebella and the acrimony that grew out of those discussions. I argued against the constitutional proposals of the Albion faction in TNI. They came to dislike me as a result. To the extent that there were significant differences beyond your conduct as a UIAF officer, it was to do with the internal power politics of TNI. Again, this all points to the centrality of the throne of TNI and the breakdown of the settlement that was formed in the summer of 2013.

It is no coincidence that (1) Cerebella agreed with Gryfynn and me to bring Albion into the UIAF in exchange for becoming Monarch of TNI, in an express agreement negotiated in June 2013 to settle the tensions created within TNI and the LKE by his founding of Albion, and (2) Albion withdrew from the UIAF in March 2015, the same month that Cerebella abdicated the throne of TNI. Albion was in the UIAF due to Cerebella's personal ambition. If Cerebella had remained active as both King of TNI and King of Albion, then it is implausible that Albion would ever have left. After that, it was just a matter of time.

Ultimately, it was Cerebella's ascension to become Monarch of TNI which led to Albion joining UIAF and the end of his reign coincided with the UIAF's end. It is not a wild guess to note that Cerebella being Monarch of TNI prior to March 2015 ensured Albion's membership of the UIAF prior to that point. Nor is it unreasonable to observe that Cerebella's exit from the stage created conditions which were much less amenable to the cooperation that existed in 2013-14.

Albion's admission to the UIAF in August 2013, after the Osiris operation, and its exit in March 2015, was fundamentally about the TNI-Albion dynamics. That is why you remain obsessed with re-litigating TNI's demise today, when you yourself actually only had very peripheral involvement in TNI itself. The internal arguments of TNI were central to Albion's own political class at the time of the dissolution of the UIAF and bounded up with your own group identity. That of course comes down to the fact that the core of Albion's political class was a faction in TNI recruited by Cerebella in mid-2013, which in turn is why TNI died.

I don't intend to continue this historical discussion any further.

[Syberis]

This thread still says awards.

I would like my award please.

[Consular]

Yeah I'm not reading that pile of probable nonsense Onder.

I will accept my award in the form of Balder being mass purged if that seems ok to everyone else?

[Ryccia]

Yeah I'm not reading that pile of probable nonsense Onder.

I will accept my award in the form of Balder being mass purged if that seems ok to everyone else?

Do it.

[Augustus Rex]

The complaints laid out in Osiris's thread were discussed in detail there without any real rebuttal except to tell us that it is none of our concern.

Balder is satisfied that our concerns are well-founded.

That is a real rebuttal. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. It's the diplomatic equivalent of screeching at someone for having an argument with your friend.

[Mingulay Isle]

Honestly, there is one particular region, out of the three regions involved here, that has shown an incredible amount of "disrespect". I don't wanna name names, but that region starts with B and ends in Balder.

"BBalder"?

[Altinsane]

I have comments in response to this statement (as a non-Osiris but still concerned player,) but Balder prefers YunYun not to comment on foreign-affairs publicly so I'll PM them

Aw, no, sorry, Yuns. I got told the same thing when I was Heiress Apparent and disagreed with them publicly about Lazarus. It isn't very ally-like to have different opinions than your allies. Unthinkable to voice them. Very sad.

-----

And since I've had a couple of days to stew on this: Balder is very welcome to be offended by Osiris having a different opinion than they do, offended that we have said the word "Balder" one too many times in our attempt to communicate the atmosphere behind our grievances with Euro, and even offended that we said the word "Onder" a bunch of times in our similar attempt to be honest about who was trying to solve problems for Euro and who was not. Does it strike anyone else as a bit funny that Euro is coming out of the woodworks now, shocked and unaware at the trouble that Osiris was getting from their presidents at the time, but Onder always knew and Onder was always there to make amends? Europeian presidents have time to report to Onder, evidently, but don't have time to answer me for weeks on end. Not that any details were revealed about those conversations in the first place, simply the fact that they happened and that Onder is who they happened with. Balder is not, however, welcome to pity itself for Osiris' rudeness and betrayal while it pretends perfect innocence, but NES is doing things like taking it upon himself to remove one of Osiris' Guardians from chat to discuss a compromise because he just decided that person was not relevant to the conversation. And while Onder is closing embassies with Osiris in fit of rage rather than taking any legal measures whatsoever to end our relationship and has to be swatted down by the Queen. And while you're imagining slights against yourself from Osiris and no words out of our mouths can be considered truth or even relevant now that you've already made up your mind on the matter.

It seems to me what Balder is really offended about here is that Osiris is not bowing to your whims.
Osiris did not do what they were told in the GCRSA.
Osiris did not do what they were told with Lazarus either under the Khanate or after Imki's coup.
Osiris did not do what they were told in dealing with Euro.
Osiris did not do what they were told when asked to keep our opinion on Gameplay events that did not agree with Balder's opinions silent rather than publicly voicing them.
Osiris has a proud history several Pharaohs long of not being anyone's plaything. I suppose if you've now realized this is a tradition that isn't going anywhere, it's reasonable to close up shop and kill any relationship there. As you've stated many times, your idea of an ally is a region that serves your own interests. A treaty does not put you in charge of a region, it means that you will communicate, within reason cooperate, and generally keep up a positive relationship. Like, for instance, the "coup Balder" jokes that I've shut down for Rach when she wasn't around to defend you. Or the information on forum options that I sent to Rach while I was doing that research in case she needed them too and I found something that she didn't. Or my "sure, no problem" willingness to help out with the more reasonable requests that Balder and related allies have been recently sending our direction. Or my willingness to let the incident with IJCC pulling out of my raid go without complaint right up until I realized that WritingLegend was hiding evidence. I would hate to offend you further by quoting myself in a conversation with any of you, but let me share with you what I said to my own troops after their frustration following that raid:

Altino08/24/2018
Lol, yeah, I know. That sucked. But stuff happens. It's all good. I knew that Euro couldn't kick out natives, but I thought they were fine in Warzones. I guess I got them confused with TNP or something. I'm used to working with NPA a lot back in TWPAF, and I'm pretty sure they're all in with warzone stuff. Oops! We'll try again some other time... with hopefully a little better communication <.< But it's not a big deal. You did a great job, we all had fun, and worst case scenario next time we'll invite Balder/LKE/Euro separately instead of going through IJCC so we don't run into anything confusing again. Them pulling out Balder was weird and I felt bad. lol. But I really think it'll be fine. Our normal tags don't even do anything with Natives anyway.

This is how we treat our allies. We don't just waltz around trying to tell them what to do and then act like they've run over our dog when they aren't obedient.

But... what do I know. A treaty is just a worthless piece of paper anyway, so I hear.

[Sargon Reman]

I presume The LKE will close its embassy with Osiris as well?

http://i67.tinypic.com/2qbhel4.png

[Wopruthien]

I presume The LKE will close its embassy with Osiris as well?

http://i67.tinypic.com/2qbhel4.png

No in a shocking twist, LKE will become upset in how Balder has treated it's ally Osiris. Onder will soon be writing a speech condemning Balder's actions in how it treats an ally and the LKE will cancel their treaty with Balder in solidarity to Osiris.

[Sargon Reman]

I presume The LKE will close its embassy with Osiris as well?

http://i67.tinypic.com/2qbhel4.png

No in a shocking twist, LKE will become upset in how Balder has treated it's ally Osiris. Onder will soon be writing a speech condemning Balder's actions in how it treats an ally and the LKE will cancel their treaty with Balder in solidarity to Osiris.

....And then Europeia will cancel embassies with all of them...
The whole history of the Onderwall should just be an RP invention.

[Onderkelkia]

And since I've had a couple of days to stew on this: Balder is very welcome to be offended by Osiris having a different opinion than they do, offended that we have said the word "Balder" one too many times in our attempt to communicate the atmosphere behind our grievances with Euro, and even offended that we said the word "Onder" a bunch of times in our similar attempt to be honest about who was trying to solve problems for Euro and who was not.

If you are going to talk about "Balder" and "Onder" to such an extent in your statement, you should at least respect our right to have a view on the matters which Balder has an interest in and state it publicly. Instead, Osiris told Balder that it was none of our business. You frame this now as Balder being "offended by Osiris having a different opinion than they do". In fact, it was the other way round. Osiris was offended that Balder voiced its opinions.

I was not seeking to solve any problems for Europeia. Rather, at each stage I acted to solve problems for Balder and/or IJCC as a whole. If you cannot accept the fact that Balder had a legitimate stake in the issue concerned, then you are starting from the outset with completely the wrong premises.

oes it strike anyone else as a bit funny that Euro is coming out of the woodworks now, shocked and unaware at the trouble that Osiris was getting from their presidents at the time, but Onder always knew and Onder was always there to make amends? Europeian presidents have time to report to Onder, evidently, but don't have time to answer me for weeks on end.

After the initial incident on 25 August, I approached you after I read the logs in the IJCC Discord server and spoke with Writinglegend, as the Chairman of the IJCC, about what happened. Subsequently, following further discussions within IJCC on that subject, I initiated the group conversation to inform you of the Supreme Military Council's decision. Later, when you approached Drexlore with a concern about IJCC Standing Orders, he informed the other IJCC regions of this concern, because any resolution would have required our consent to amend the Standing Orders to address your point (unless you simply wanted Europeia to leave IJCC). This consisted of a single message briefing us from Drexlore, following which he actually failed to reply further. I wasn't happy about this. It would have become a separate issue between Balder and Europeia if Sopo had not ascended to the presidency when he did.

When you say that "Europeian presidents have time to report to Onder, evidently, but don't have time to answer me for weeks on end", you don't understand what was actually happening. Europeian presidents were not anymore responsive to me than they were to you when I tried to have substantive discussions about the issues involved. I was proactive in dealing with what I recognised immediately to be a significant diplomatic issue with implications for Balder.

Europeia is "is coming out of the woodworks now" because it has a new president who doesn't think the way to deal with crises is to ignore them.

Balder is not, however, welcome to pity itself for Osiris' rudeness and betrayal while it pretends perfect innocence, but NES is doing things like taking it upon himself to remove one of Osiris' Guardians from chat to discuss a compromise because he just decided that person was not relevant to the conversation. And while Onder is closing embassies with Osiris in fit of rage rather than taking any legal measures whatsoever to end our relationship and has to be swatted down by the Queen.

The Crown Prince removed Syberis from the group conversation because he said he was not representing Osiris and speaking as a private citizen.

The embassy was initially terminated, not in a "fit of rage", but at a point when both sides expressly said that the negotiations were over and that the compromise discussed was unacceptable, which meant the alliance would be dissolved. Indeed, very shortly after the embassy was terminated, Syberis asked without prompting, and without having seen the closure, if we wanted to terminate embassies first, because he obviously recognised that was the stage we were at in the discussion. The issue of embassy termination occurred to Syberis at roughly the same time as it did for Balder, and for a reason. After the first round of talks was essentially over, however, fresh negotiations ensued to try and find a settlement. At the conclusion of that, the Queen, Crown Prince and I agreed that the embassy could remain open by conducting the treaty termination on an amicable basis. There would have been no legal issue had we decided to persist with the embassy closure because embassy withdrawal takes 3 days and the legal process can be completed in that time.

[Xoriet]

Onder, just how much of a victim complex do you plan to claim here?

I was proactive in dealing with what I recognised immediately to be a significant diplomatic issue with implications for Balder.

So, in other words, you decided it was up to you to bring up Balder because you thought this was going to affect you? It never would have if you hadn't made the fuss you did. I'm really not sure where you come off pinning this breakdown on Osiris. You made it very clear that your interests were with your beloved IJCC rather than specific relations between Balder and Osiris. Osiris had recently rejected working with the IJCC because of Euro's actions. This had no bearing on relations between Osiris and Balder as allies in a relationship independent of IJCC. Altino had even commended you specifically on your communication efforts. Her criticisms were directed at Europeia, not at Balder.

If it had any effect on Balder, that was because Osiris didn't want to work with your joint military project. Which, by the way, wasn't a big deal. We end up returning to the simple fact that this never had to involve Balder to this extent. You made it Balder's problem. Balder isn't defined by the IJCC, so why all the upset over it? You were quibbling over a matter of terminology because Osiris dared to criticize anything about the IJCC.

This was an issue because you made it one.

[Solorni]

At work and not the most pleased with people trying to make this amicable ending of the treaty less amicable.

[Onderkelkia]

Onder, just how much of a victim complex do you plan to claim here?

[...]

This was an issue because you made it one.

All I am seeing is persistent and bizarre denials from some quarters that IJCC - an organisation which Balder is a member of - is Balder's concern.

I find even more bizarre the proposition that a provision in IJCC Standing Orders, authored and proposed by Balder to secure its interests, has nothing to do with Balder and Balder is not allowed to clarify our stance when it is criticised to the point where it is alleged the Balder-Europeia Treaty is violated.

In itself, Balder had no objection to Osiris not working with IJCC. That does not mean we are happy for IJCC and its rules to be misrepresented.

Frankly, we are going over old ground now for no apparent reason.

[Altinsane]

So what I'm hearing is, yeah, you totally are knowingly suppressing the public opinion of your allies when they aren't your own opinion, no argument, and you're not even going to take the time to make something up so that no one believes you would do such a thing?

Cool, cool. 10/10 best ally ever, I don't know why Osiris would ever even doubt you.

[Onderkelkia]

So what I'm hearing is, yeah, you totally are knowingly suppressing the public opinion of your allies when they aren't your own opinion, no argument, and you're not even going to take the time to make something up so that no one believes you would do such a thing?

Cool, cool. 10/10 best ally ever, I don't know why Osiris would ever even doubt you.

Osiris stated its opinions perfectly clearly.

Balder responded with a clarification concerned solely with those matters directly related to us, avoiding the wider Osiris-Europeia dispute.

Following which, we were told it was none of our business.

Under what possible interpretation is it Balder who is "knowingly suppressing the public opinion of [our] allies"? This issue escalated because Osiris had a problem with Balder talking about the IJCC, an alliance which we are a member of, and the IJCC Standing Orders amendment which we wrote.

It beggars belief that you accuse Balder of seeking to gag Osiris, when the problems arose because Osiris objected to Balder opening its mouth.

[Canton Empire]

At work and not the most pleased with people trying to make this amicable ending of the treaty less amicable.

No where in here has this breakdown in relations been amicable.

[Onderkelkia]

At work and not the most pleased with people trying to make this amicable ending of the treaty less amicable.

No where in here has this breakdown in relations been amicable.

There was an opportunity to draw a line under the matter with the termination of the treaty itself, with the retention of embassy relations.

For whatever reason, it appears that Osiris wishes to re-open that dispute with a fresh round of arguments, after we agreed to part ways. Now if Osiris wants to do that, we are happy to respond, but the Queen's stated preference is for the matter to be settled and the statement we issued reflected that.

[Jar Wattinree]

Following which, we were told it was none of our business.

[...]

It beggars belief that you accuse Balder of seeking to gag Osiris, when the problems arose because Osiris objected to Balder opening its mouth.

It is interesting to note that half of these linked statements come from a private citizen of Osiris, in addition to the delegate. Sure, that private citizen had been a former delegate of Osiris. But his political importance, once he stepped down from the delegacy, ceased in favor of the current delegate. Shameful that a Bald governmental official had to double down on repeated justifications ad naseum to a private citizen with the same ponderous force as toward the current Osiran delegate.

An RL comparison would be the President of the United States, in the midst of a Twitter spat with the leader of another country, haranguing a citizen with no political importance of the other country and taking diplomatic affront because the citizen agreed with their leader, and terminating relations as a result.

[Onderkelkia]

Following which, we were told it was none of our business.

[...]

It beggars belief that you accuse Balder of seeking to gag Osiris, when the problems arose because Osiris objected to Balder opening its mouth.

It is interesting to note that half of these linked statements come from a private citizen of Osiris, in addition to the delegate. Sure, that private citizen had been a former delegate of Osiris. But his political importance, once he stepped down from the delegacy, ceased in favor of the current delegate. Shameful that a Bald governmental official had to double down on repeated justifications ad naseum to a private citizen with the same ponderous force as toward the current Osiran delegate.

Syberis is a Guardian of Osiris who was subsequently brought along to official diplomatic discussions with Balder over the incident. Indeed, Altino complained above about Syberis being removed from that discussion.

In any case, the Pharaoh's remarks alone, linked in three of the six posts, made precisely the same argument as appeared in Syberis's post, so the status of Syberis's remarks doesn't change the character of Osiris's response to Balder (i.e. arguing that it is none of our business). Osiris's message was clear.

Rest assured that if Syberis had posted alone, the nature of Balder's response would have been different.