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Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Onder Kelkia
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Posts: 91
Founded: May 27, 2013
Father Knows Best State

Postby Onder Kelkia » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:19 pm

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:
Onder Kelkia wrote:No regions have been proscribed based on lies and no persons have been declared persona non grata due to personal dislike. Such external controversy as has followed such decisions has come after the deterioration of relations with the parties concerned, not before. All regional proscription decisions are taken by a vote of the elected Storting, in all cases so far with unanimous support, and should not be presented as a personal decision of one individual.

EMN had existed for 2 weeks and had 10 citizens at the time of our proscription by you, based on our, what was it again? "Defender-Francoist propaganda". We didn't even have a bloody GP thread yet. We hadn't even released any official communique of ANY kind. But yes. Tell me more again about this "deterioration of relations with the parties concerned".

This is deliberately obtuse. The statements that were accurately described before the Storting did not come from an official publication of Mare Nostrum, but from the statements of Mare Nostrum's founding members pertaining to Balder in private conversations and The Land of Kings and Emperors. You appear to believe that we should have acted only on official statements, but the Storting is entitled to rely on all relevant evidence in making an assessment.

Regardless of whether you think the interpretation and decision adopted by the Storting was right or wrong, it was not based on lies as you alleged.

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:
Onder Kelkia wrote:The Queen is not mixed up on her history. The dismissal was far from uncontroversial, to put it mildly, and had adverse long-term consequences.

A decision being controversial does not make it bad, Onder. You may not be aware after having surrounded yourself with so many yesmen for so long.

On the contrary, for a constitutional monarch, involvement in political controversy is inherently undesirable. Constitutional monarchs take care to avoid it. That is not to say that there are never circumstances where controversial royal decisions are appropriate, but a decision being contentious is a downside.

I don't surround myself with "yesmen". You know nothing about any of the people I work with with in this game, anymore than you know anything about the politics of the Realm of Balder. I am fortunate to have many loyal colleagues who voice disagreements honestly and frankly in the appropriate setting.

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:
Onder Kelkia wrote:Please address our Queen with greater respect.

She is not my Queen and I give respect where it is due. I will address her as I please as I am not one of your cronies to boss around. Thanks for your concern, though, aziz.

Your refusal is noted.
Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, Basileus Emeritus of Polis, etc.

Prince of Jomsborg, Balder
Archduke, The New Inquisition
Viscount, Great Britain and Ireland

Balder Chief of Defence
Chief Justice of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Balder Statsminister
Balder Foreign Minister
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GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO
Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF

WA Delegate of The Rejected Realms

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Sahansahiye Iran
Minister
 
Posts: 2386
Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:40 pm

Onder Kelkia wrote:
Sahansahiye Iran wrote:EMN had existed for 2 weeks and had 10 citizens at the time of our proscription by you, based on our, what was it again? "Defender-Francoist propaganda". We didn't even have a bloody GP thread yet. We hadn't even released any official communique of ANY kind. But yes. Tell me more again about this "deterioration of relations with the parties concerned".

This is deliberately obtuse. The statements that were accurately described before the Storting did not come from an official publication of Mare Nostrum, but from the statements of Mare Nostrum's founding members pertaining to Balder in private conversations and The Land of Kings and Emperors. You appear to believe that we should have acted only on official statements, but the Storting is entitled to rely on all relevant evidence in making an assessment.

It is based on lies. Or at least deliberate disingenuousness. Your motion said, and I quote, "...a new region calling itself the Empire of Mare Nostrum has decided to engage in hostilities against the Realm of Balder. Specifically, it has adopted and spread the Defender-Francoist [our independent UCR is Defender-Francoist lel] propaganda that we are unusually inactive... It has also accused Balder's dual citizens in other regions of being more dedicated to Balder than to those regions..."

EMN has at no point in time officially adopted or even expressed the stance that Balder is inactive or that it is negative for Balderites (I'm rolling with this) to be more dedicated to Balder in any form at all. The personal opinions of select members of our region, as expressed in private as you specifically mentioned, have no bearing on the region itself or as a whole. For you to repeatedly refer to EMN itself as such, is complete horseshit, to be frank. If we held the entirety of every region accountable for the private words of prominent members of it, every region would have every other one proscribed. Anyone with sense can see past your attempts at flowery language and half truths. Nice try, though, bud. You can continue to try to say you act only in Balder's best interests but that is empirically false.


Screenshot of the proscription:
Image
Last edited by Sahansahiye Iran on Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:20 am, edited 6 times in total.
User formerly known as United Islamic Commonwealth and al-Ismailiyya.
Also known as Khosrow, Zarhust, or Lanian Empire.
Praetorian Prefect of EMN
Senator of EMN
Legatus of the Marian Legion
Integrator of EMN
A GCR Supreme General of the Contrarians
Iranian civic/cultural nationalist
Monarchist
Zoroastrian

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Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3026
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Consular » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:07 am

Solorni wrote:
Consular wrote:Yes those are lovely words you're putting down there but we're not talking about IRL nations, Solorni. We're talking about Balder. "But Balder is based on my favourite real life democracies!!" is not an answer to "When was your last election?". Does always dodging the actual question with pseudo-academic political babbling ever get exhausting?

Anyway -- what you're saying with that wall of irrelevance is you're unelected, right? That's what you're saying. You're a dictator.

Oh, unfortunately discussing Locke et al is not pseudo-academical! You can actually read their books if you'd like; York University actually has a PDF of Two Treaties of Government. Also, let's be honest... a lot of features of NS regions are based upon RL nations. If you think about it, we actually replicate real life nation concepts even when it does not fully make sense. The whole concept of elected legislatures, monarchies, presidents, constitutions, many cabinet positions and much more are all based on real life far more than a concept that was developed to govern regions. That is, we imitate real life for the sake of it than to develop systems 100% to deal with NS problems efficiently.

Thus, I think it is perfectly valid to compare Balder to real life nations since this is where 90% of a region is actually based on rather than in game. I'd recommend researching what concepts like "dictator" or "autocracy" are, since it is very clear that either you do not understand what they mean or are purposefully misusing them. The separation of power and a system of checks and balances are important features in both real life democracies and in Balder as well as other democracies in the game. By that very definition of separating power and having checks and balances, Balder is inherently not a dictatorship nor an autocracy.

In fact, the power of the Balder monarchy and in particular the conventions I am bound to are stricter than say HEM's in Europeia when he was the Supreme Chancellor. I have not served in the legislature or the cabinet or as statsminister since becoming monarch. My proposals for changes for the region, such as directly electing the Statsminister or having a two house Storting where the new house would be for regional WAs are not approved of by the regional populace as a whole and the government. This is the antitheses of dictatorship or autocracy. It would be like calling the Queen of England a dictator and similarly it would make as little sense in real life.

You might call what you do not understand "pseudo-academic", but I do feel like these concepts are applicable to the game and one of the most academic things one can do is to take concepts and ideas from one field and apply them to other fields. It is what makes for example the study of history when you apply economic ideas and theories to it, quite special. Or when you apply the close reading you learned in University English to History. Or when you take the concept of logic and apply it to other fields. This concept of applying Locke's ideas is a very old one for me and I do greatly believe in it. When you look at how destructive purges can be or when leaders are too heavy handed, the damage that can be done... it is something I never wanted for Balder.

Particularly back in the beginning of my current term, I was happy with how former elected delegates were not purged or pushed out with the exception of one who couped. That has not been the case in all Game Created Regions. Similarly, the concepts of the Locke and Constant came out of a recognition about the mistakes made during the English Civil War, the French Revolution while still preserving the liberty that they espoused. In fact, it was different from Hobbes since Hobbes lived through the English Civil War similar to how Machievelli had lived through a very violent part of Italian history and their solutions were much more heavy handed.

I was always cognizant of that and the political environment that Balder grew up was very violent for GCRs and often quite horrifying for communities that had been effected by that. Especially since in one of my previous UCRs, when the founder couped... a lot of my friends from that community never came back to the game. Even if they tried, they just couldn't get back into it. So as corny as it sounds, it was important for me to try to create this balance where you could have a region without purges while still being democratic and it just seemed to make so much sense to approach it from a Locke sort of perspective.

Obviously it is not always perfect but a lot of it reflects my own style of being a consensus builder and trying to build solutions that work for as many people as possible. But that in many ways is the nature of democracy and trying to build an active and stable sinker with a vibrant and healthy community. It's boring but I've always been into boring stuff and I get that it's not for everyone. But hopefully this clears stuff up for you. I'd really recommend checking out some of Locke's works and reading about the Glorious Revolution.

Do you ever wOnder how much more vibrant Balder could be without you?

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Onder Kelkia
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Posts: 91
Founded: May 27, 2013
Father Knows Best State

Postby Onder Kelkia » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:37 am

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:
Onder Kelkia wrote:This is deliberately obtuse. The statements that were accurately described before the Storting did not come from an official publication of Mare Nostrum, but from the statements of Mare Nostrum's founding members pertaining to Balder in private conversations and The Land of Kings and Emperors. You appear to believe that we should have acted only on official statements, but the Storting is entitled to rely on all relevant evidence in making an assessment.

It is based on lies. Or at least deliberate disingenuousness. [...]

EMN has at no point in time officially adopted or even expressed the stance that Balder is inactive or that it is negative for Balderites (I'm rolling with this) to be more dedicated to Balder in any form at all. The personal opinions of select members of our region, as expressed in private as you specifically mentioned, have no bearing on the region itself or as a whole. For you to repeatedly refer to EMN itself as such, is complete horseshit, to be frank. If we held the entirety of every region accountable for the private words of prominent members of it, every region would have every other one proscribed.

Firstly, we disagree that "[t]he personal opinions of select members of [y]our region" are irrelevant in characterising Mare Nostrum's behaviour, when those statements were made at a very early stage of your region's history by your region's founding members (most particularly, its Emperor and its "Legatus Prefect", the head of its foreign affairs and military). When a region is very new, its identity is inevitably bound up with that of its founder or co-founders. Mare Nostrum had no reputation or external government activity of its own to trade on. At that stage in its existence, when Mare Nostrum "had existed for 2 weeks and had 10 citizens at the time" as you stated earlier, Mare Nostrum was effectively a plan or plot of the participating members, not an entity in its own right, as far as we are concerned. It is therefore entirely reasonable for Balder to decline to draw the distinction you are seeking to draw.

You are not going to convince us to ignore the words of your most senior executive officials and founding members and that, when your region was 2 weeks old, we should have treated it as if it constituted a corporate entity distinct from them. We do not recognise you as possessing that degree of legitimacy.

Secondly, the statements concerned occurred on the forums of the LKE and, indeed, in private - but not just in private among themselves or else we would not know about them. If the statements had never been spoken among anyone outside Mare Nostrum's inner group, then you might have had a point.
Last edited by Onder Kelkia on Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, Basileus Emeritus of Polis, etc.

Prince of Jomsborg, Balder
Archduke, The New Inquisition
Viscount, Great Britain and Ireland

Balder Chief of Defence
Chief Justice of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
LKE Chief of the Imperial General Staff

Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
Director General of TNI Intelligence

Balder Statsminister
Balder Foreign Minister
Balder Integration Minister

GB&I Home Secretary
GB&I First Sea Lord

Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO
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Balder Communist Party
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Posts: 6
Founded: Nov 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Balder Communist Party » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:23 am

A message from the President of The Party
Image

Members of The Balder Government,

After the ejecting of our ambassador, I and the leading members of the party have decided to bring you ugly authoritarianism to an end. As this message is being read by you, our members are taking actions to ensure political freedom in Balder. I give this warning in the hopes that you choose to reinvite our party's ambassador, should you choose not to you I will be forced to take measures that I never thought I would be using against my region... a region I have been in for close to a year. This is your final chance for redemption.

signed,
The 52 voting nations of the Balder Communist Party

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Balder Communist Party Ambassador
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Founded: Nov 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Balder Communist Party Ambassador » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:39 am

I support my president's statements and while I did not want it to come to this I know this is necessary for the freedom of Balder.

May we prevail.

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Indo-Malaysia
Minister
 
Posts: 2458
Founded: Nov 07, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Indo-Malaysia » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:44 am

Balder Communist Party Ambassador wrote:I support my president's statements and while I did not want it to come to this I know this is necessary for the freedom of Balder.

May we prevail.

I have a feeling you and the 'party president' are both the same person :/
Tsar of the Order of the Southern North.

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Solorni
Minister
 
Posts: 3024
Founded: Sep 04, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Solorni » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:02 am

It's not a good sign for this other region that they could not read the rules against RMB spam. All if not nearly all GCRs ban recruitment spam on their RMBs :)
Lovely Queen of Balder
Proud Delegate of WALL

Lucky Number 13

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Glacikaldr
Envoy
 
Posts: 296
Founded: Jul 17, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Glacikaldr » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:45 am

Now that everyone has seemingly gotten bored of Onder, I just want to say that I'm glad I could be the catylist for your pseudo-power to go ham. I hope you all had fun.

"Oh, by the way, you got me - I had to move all 500 of my puppets out of Balder :eek: :eek: :shock:"

Congrats to Balder on this decisive ideological victory. :clap:

I anxiously await Balder implementing an Osiris PNG for the same reasons you now choose to justify the TRR PNG. May we all so soon quiver in fear before defying you again oh great ones.
TRR's MOST PROLIFIC DOOFA

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Unibot III
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Posts: 5586
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:55 am

The best part of this academic “debate” is Locke and Balder have nothing in common. It’s Hobbes, not Locke - you’ve got your classics mixed up. Bah. If you’re going to waste everyone’s time at least waste it responsibly. :p
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
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with the best of intentions.
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Syberis
Chargé d'Affaires
 
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Founded: Jan 21, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Syberis » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:05 pm

Unibot III wrote:The best part of this academic “debate” is Locke and Balder have nothing in common. It’s Hobbes, not Locke - you’ve got your classics mixed up. Bah. If you’re going to waste everyone’s time at least waste it responsibly. :p


I'll take your word for it, my knowledge of philosophers has a massive gap between Rome and the mid-1800s.
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Malphe
Diplomat
 
Posts: 721
Founded: Jun 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Malphe » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:19 pm

Indo-Malaysia wrote:
Balder Communist Party Ambassador wrote:I support my president's statements and while I did not want it to come to this I know this is necessary for the freedom of Balder.

May we prevail.

I have a feeling you and the 'party president' are both the same person :/

Nah, this is an entirely serious organization that poses a real threat to the government of Balder! Fear the, uh, what was their name again?
Malphe Vytherov-Skollvaldr
(Osiris, Malphe II, (The North Pacific, Malphe)

Pinky and the Brain's moderately more successful cousin-
- and apparently Rach's adopted son.
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The Galactic Liberal Democracy
Minister
 
Posts: 2350
Founded: Jun 13, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby The Galactic Liberal Democracy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:25 pm

Malphe wrote:
Indo-Malaysia wrote:I have a feeling you and the 'party president' are both the same person :/

Nah, this is an entirely serious organization that poses a real threat to the government of Balder! Fear the, uh, what was their name again?

The Communist Party is always a fun party and nobody has had a shot of vodka too many. Except the ones that think 99% percent of leaders who call themselves communist are lying.
Last edited by The Galactic Liberal Democracy on Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kyorgia
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Posts: 235
Founded: Jun 07, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kyorgia » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:08 am

Dear Balder i am here on behalf of the cat empress. If you surrender your region to the Xoricat we will leave you alone. Thank you so much for your time.
Kyorgia Blackfyre
My region was condemned once

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Xoriet
Ambassador
 
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Founded: Jun 08, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby Xoriet » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:51 am

Now I see what you meant by that, Kyo. >.>

Anyway, yes, kittencoup still requested.
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Milozoldyck
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 107
Founded: Nov 03, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Milozoldyck » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:34 am

Hello. Would it be all right if I posted a handful of questions I have about Balder?

EDIT: Added "hello"
Last edited by Milozoldyck on Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Devi Vytherin
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 135
Founded: Mar 12, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Devi Vytherin » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:56 am

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:If we held the entirety of every region accountable for the private words of prominent members of it, every region would have every other one proscribed.

You must be new here. :blush:
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Subversive Userite Raider

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Solorni
Minister
 
Posts: 3024
Founded: Sep 04, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Solorni » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:05 am

Balder has a new flag for today to mark remembrance day:

Image
Lovely Queen of Balder
Proud Delegate of WALL

Lucky Number 13

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Silitone
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Aug 15, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Silitone » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:13 am

Solorni wrote:Balder has a new flag for today to mark remembrance day:

(Image)

I must say, I very much like the flag and am glad Balder is celebrating this day!
Silitone
Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs for Outreach of Europeia

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The Holy Principality of Saint Mark
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Posts: 94
Founded: May 20, 2016
Corporate Bordello

Postby The Holy Principality of Saint Mark » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:44 am

Beautiful flag!
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Lord Dominator
Senator
 
Posts: 4442
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:36 am

Flag is indeed very pretty.
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RiderSyl
Senator
 
Posts: 4801
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Mother Knows Best State

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:30 am

Not bad! :)
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Karpathos
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Onder Kelkia
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Posts: 91
Founded: May 27, 2013
Father Knows Best State

Postby Onder Kelkia » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:32 pm

Image

Termination of Diplomatic Relations with the New Pacific Order

The Realm of Balder hereby announces our decision to terminate all diplomatic relations with the New Pacific Order. We are initiating the process of de-constructing our in-game embassy, and have terminated The Pacific's embassy on Balder's forum. This decision reflects Balder's strong opposition to the ideology of Francoism and its use as an instrument for dividing players and regions in order to serve the New Pacific Order's purposes. Suspicion of "userites" has been invoked by The Pacific and those under its influence as an ideological pretext for seeking hegemonic control of other feeders and sinkers.

Our decision additionally reflects Balder condemnation of the New Pacific Order's subversion of Lazarus, in collaboration with elements of the defender political establishment based in The South Pacific. Powerful elements within the defender world have opportunistically co-opted The Pacific's Francoist narratives and actively participated in the New Pacific Order's subversive actions.

Since the first half of this year, Balder has warned about The Pacific's political activities associated with the rise of Defender-Francoism, a phenomenon founded on the alliance between The Pacific and The South Pacific. More widely, we have been conscious of a deterioration in The Pacific's respect for Balder and our allies since mid-2017. We have taken tangible actions to punish The Pacific for its dishonourable behaviour towards Balder and our allies. Together with The West Pacific, we successfully voted to remove The Pacific from the GCR Sovereignty Accords in May 2018 after it failed to honour the provisions of the Accords. We now note the release of definitive evidence confirming the justice of our concerns regarding The Pacific's pattern of conduct.

On 20 and 21 November, we were delighted to contribute to the earlier operation led by The Black Hawks to free St Abbaddon from The Pacific's grip. As the Chairman of the Independent Joint Command Coalition, Her Nordic Majesty the Queen played a pivotal role in mobilising forces for that mission within Balder, Europeia, the Land of Kings and Emperors, and beyond. The citizenry of Balder is proud of the role that we played in that mission. We will not be deterred from participating in any military operations or diplomatic manoeuvres by the threats of hostilities issued by the then Consul of The Pacific in his statement following the St Abbaddon mission. The Realm of Balder will take further measures to counter the threat posed by the New Pacific Order as we judge appropriate.
Vice Delegate and Crown Prince of Balder
Emperor Emeritus of The Land of Kings and Emperors
King Emeritus of Norwood, Basileus Emeritus of Polis, etc.

Prince of Jomsborg, Balder
Archduke, The New Inquisition
Viscount, Great Britain and Ireland

Balder Chief of Defence
Chief Justice of Europeia
Emperor of the LKE
LKE Prime Minister
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Crown Prince of TNI
Commander of TNI Armed Forces
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GB&I Home Secretary
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Supreme Allied Commander, SRATO
Member, Imperial Military Council, UIAF

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Miss Bad Life Choices
Attaché
 
Posts: 84
Founded: Feb 12, 2018
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Miss Bad Life Choices » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:37 pm

A textwall I can appreciate.
pokes

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2187
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:37 pm

Strong disagreements with Balder aside, it's good to see Balder taking a strong stand against the NPO's aggression and subversion. NPO delenda est.
Cormac Skollvaldr
President of the Pacifica Democratic Union

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