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Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:41 am

Consular wrote:
Solorni wrote:Alvalero aka Zander Cerebella has been in Balder since October 2011 and is Balder's third elected delegate, having served a term of 192 days as well as a bevy of other positions through Balder's long history. Prior to Balder; Zander was from The United States of Europe, Aura Hyperia, Bloemfontein & Genesis. It is unfair to accuse him of not being a native and it is untrue to say that he is from LKE.

The reason why Zander did not make the reply was because as I believe Onder has stated earlier, he is on a Leave of Absence and unable to official statements or to defend himself.

Didn't Zander also oppose your bid to make yourself Delegate For Forever But Without Any Responsibilities?

Zander did oppose the reforms to shift foreign affairs and military to the Statsminister and create a delegacy with an election at start at the time of the reforms. That is what happens when you are a democracy, no single person can always get what they want. Similarly, my other preferred reforms during that convention such as having a legislative house region side that was proposed during that same time failed. So in that proposal, the Storting would have been composed of two houses; the Lagting that was composed of the elected forumside legislature and the Odelsting which would have been the regionside legislature composed of WA members. Very few people have also ever really been on board with wanting to elect the Statsminister directly despite my very strong support for it.

Your point wasn't pertinent to my previous post, so I figured it was more of a NS history question and am happy to talk about that sort of stuff :)
Last edited by Solorni on Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:40 am

Solorni wrote:
Consular wrote:Didn't Zander also oppose your bid to make yourself Delegate For Forever But Without Any Responsibilities?

Zander did oppose the reforms to shift foreign affairs and military to the Statsminister and create a delegacy with an election at start at the time of the reforms. That is what happens when you are a democracy, no single person can always get what they want. Similarly, my other preferred reforms during that convention such as having a legislative house region side that was proposed during that same time failed. So in that proposal, the Storting would have been composed of two houses; the Lagting that was composed of the elected forumside legislature and the Odelsting which would have been the regionside legislature composed of WA members. Very few people have also ever really been on board with wanting to elect the Statsminister directly despite my very strong support for it.

Your point wasn't pertinent to my previous post, so I figured it was more of a NS history question and am happy to talk about that sort of stuff :)

I wonder if Zander would like to be Delegate again?

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:19 pm

Consular wrote:
Solorni wrote:Zander did oppose the reforms to shift foreign affairs and military to the Statsminister and create a delegacy with an election at start at the time of the reforms. That is what happens when you are a democracy, no single person can always get what they want. Similarly, my other preferred reforms during that convention such as having a legislative house region side that was proposed during that same time failed. So in that proposal, the Storting would have been composed of two houses; the Lagting that was composed of the elected forumside legislature and the Odelsting which would have been the regionside legislature composed of WA members. Very few people have also ever really been on board with wanting to elect the Statsminister directly despite my very strong support for it.

Your point wasn't pertinent to my previous post, so I figured it was more of a NS history question and am happy to talk about that sort of stuff :)

I wonder if Zander would like to be Delegate again?

You would have to ask him! I know that he actually ended up liking the reforms in hindsight, especially considering how rough it was for awhile in terms of coups and purges.
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:22 pm

Solorni wrote:
Consular wrote:I wonder if Zander would like to be Delegate again?

You would have to ask him! I know that he actually ended up liking the reforms in hindsight, especially considering how rough it was for awhile in terms of coups and purges.

Yeah you're right, a few coups in other places definitely justifies autocracy.

Huh... That kind of thinking sounds oddly familiar

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:14 pm

Consular wrote:
Solorni wrote:You would have to ask him! I know that he actually ended up liking the reforms in hindsight, especially considering how rough it was for awhile in terms of coups and purges.

Yeah you're right, a few coups in other places definitely justifies autocracy.

Huh... That kind of thinking sounds oddly familiar

Well, it probably sounds oddly familiar because it is categorically false and in this day and age where dangerous far right conspiracy theories that question the very nature of reality abound, it fits right in. Fundamentally, Balder is a democracy based on the theories of Locke and Constant who were involved in and inspired by the Glorious Revolution respectively, an underrated historical event which I also drew inspiration from.

Sadly, it is quite boring though.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:21 pm

And here I could have sworn Balder’s democracy was based off Hobbes. 8)
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:15 pm

Solorni wrote:Balder is a democracy

When was your last election?

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Silitone
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Postby Silitone » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:34 am

Consular wrote:
Solorni wrote:Balder is a democracy

When was your last election?

October 2018 was Balder's last Sorting election. They're every two months... :P Simple stuff.
Last edited by Silitone on Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:51 pm

Silitone wrote:
Consular wrote:When was your last election?

October 2018 was Balder's last Sorting election. They're every two months... :P Simple stuff.

"Your" did not refer to Balder generally, but to Solorni personally. Simple stuff.

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Midnight Indo
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Postby Midnight Indo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:00 pm

Is the Balder Communist Party legit?
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Balder Communist Party
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Postby Balder Communist Party » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:14 pm

Midnight Indo wrote:Is the Balder Communist Party legit?


Comrade, we are very "legit" but I feel like the current government is not too fond of us... it would be terrible if the status quo was changed right?

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Lugus Triune
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Postby Lugus Triune » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:32 pm

Midnight Indo wrote:Is the Balder Communist Party legit?

No.
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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:34 pm

Consular wrote:
Silitone wrote:October 2018 was Balder's last Sorting election. They're every two months... :P Simple stuff.

"Your" did not refer to Balder generally, but to Solorni personally. Simple stuff.

Silitone is correct! If you'd like to read about the type of democracies that Balder is based on and how democracy works, you could read about highly ranked democracies in real life that have monarchies such as Norway (#1), Sweden (#3) & Denmark (#5) that are also Scandinavian. This is above republics that are considered flawed democracies such as the United States (#T21) or Italy (#T21).

On the topic of Hobbes, the Political Science course I was actually taking at the time studied Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Hobbes & Locke. In some ways, the position could be considered as a "Philosopher Queen" or a "Leviathan" especially because in the latter it is avoiding the chaotic state of nature. But if I recall correctly the leviathan limited personal freedom, whereas I agree much more with Locke that the idea of a state should primarily be able to protect property rights, contracts and preventing individuals from inflicting violence on each other.
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Ryccia
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Postby Ryccia » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:10 pm

From what I hear, Norway, Sweden and Denmark don't PNG literally anyone who criticizes them like playing Whack-a-Critic. You should follow that example if you so cherish them.

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:05 pm

Ryccia wrote:From what I hear, Norway, Sweden and Denmark don't PNG literally anyone who criticizes them like playing Whack-a-Critic. You should follow that example if you so cherish them.

I think you've gotten confused about how constitutional democracies work. That's okay! But basically in most modern democracies with a monarchy like those nordic countries, britain and Canada the monarchy either has very little legal power or wield it very little. I'm sure you can imagine the controversy if the Queen of Britain or her representative in Canada used their powers they haven't used for centuries by convention!
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Sahansahiye Iran
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Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:10 pm

Solorni wrote:I'm sure you can imagine the controversy if the Queen of Britain or her representative in Canada used their powers they haven't used for centuries by convention!

In 1975, the Governor-General of Australia dismissed the Prime Minister because he wasn't acting as an effective leader for the country. I'm sure if the Canadian Prime Minister were doing the equivalent of proscribing entire nations based on lies or PNGing people because he doesn't like them to the point where it causes an international uproar, the Queen would take action. Because that is the Queen's job.
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Ryccia
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Postby Ryccia » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:13 pm

Solorni wrote:
Ryccia wrote:From what I hear, Norway, Sweden and Denmark don't PNG literally anyone who criticizes them like playing Whack-a-Critic. You should follow that example if you so cherish them.

I think you've gotten confused about how constitutional democracies work. That's okay! But basically in most modern democracies with a monarchy like those nordic countries, britain and Canada the monarchy either has very little legal power or wield it very little. I'm sure you can imagine the controversy if the Queen of Britain or her representative in Canada used their powers they haven't used for centuries by convention!

I was refering to "you" as a region, not yourself as an individual.

And, yes, you have no power. To my eyes, you are a willing pawn of Onder's personal oligarchy. And you are complicit in Balder's decay and horrible leadership, which serves Onder's interests in the end.
Last edited by Ryccia on Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:18 pm

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:
Solorni wrote:I'm sure you can imagine the controversy if the Queen of Britain or her representative in Canada used their powers they haven't used for centuries by convention!

In 1975, the Governor-General of Australia dismissed the Prime Minister because he wasn't acting as an effective leader for the country. I'm sure if the Canadian Prime Minister were doing the equivalent of proscribing entire nations based on lies or PNGing people because he doesn't like them to the point where it causes an international uproar, the Queen would take action. Because that is the Queen's job.

You mean the event that triggered a constitutional crisis and caused Governor General Kerr to retire early as well be blacklisted and not supported by any of the Australian parties? This was over 40 years ago and would definately be even more unacceptable now as it was considered unacceptable then. Not really a good example and certainly not in the vein of the Glorious Revolution.
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Sahansahiye Iran
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Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:23 pm

Solorni wrote:
Sahansahiye Iran wrote:In 1975, the Governor-General of Australia dismissed the Prime Minister because he wasn't acting as an effective leader for the country. I'm sure if the Canadian Prime Minister were doing the equivalent of proscribing entire nations based on lies or PNGing people because he doesn't like them to the point where it causes an international uproar, the Queen would take action. Because that is the Queen's job.

You mean the event that triggered a constitutional crisis and caused Governor General Kerr to retire early as well be blacklisted and not supported by any of the Australian parties? This was over 40 years ago and would definately be even more unacceptable now as it was considered unacceptable then. Not really a good example and certainly not in the vein of the Glorious Revolution.

I think you have it a bit mixed up there, love. The crisis was solved by the dismissal. Not the other way around. The crisis was in the Opposition controlled Senate refusing to pass appropriations bills. And the person Kerr appointed as caretaker PM was reelected with a resounding majority. And Kerr resigned and went into exile due to attacks from the dismissed PMs supporters, not due to some blacklisting. Nice try, though.
Last edited by Sahansahiye Iran on Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:30 pm

And Kerr was not supported by the opposition and when he was suggested as an ambassador, it was considered untenable. It seems little wonder why Kerrs involvement is considering an argument for Australia becoming a republic. Now I know why republicanism is so much stronger in Australia than it is in Canada which hasn't had that interference.

Again, an extremely poor example that completely goes against your argument.
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Sahansahiye Iran
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Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:36 pm

Solorni wrote:And Kerr was not supported by the opposition and when he was suggested as an ambassador, it was considered untenable. It seems little wonder why Kerrs involvement is considering an argument for Australia becoming a republic. Now I know why republicanism is so much stronger in Australia than it is in Canada which hasn't had that interference.

Again, an extremely poor example that completely goes against your argument.

Is that why Fraser had him made a Privy Counsellor and wanted him to be made a peer? Hmmmmmmmm.

Anyways, I know you're a smart girl and you got the point of what I was saying even if you are a bit mixed up on your history. If you want to continue this and learn a bit, feel free to meet me in NSG :hug:
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:38 pm

Solorni wrote:
Consular wrote:"Your" did not refer to Balder generally, but to Solorni personally. Simple stuff.

Silitone is correct! If you'd like to read about the type of democracies that Balder is based on and how democracy works, you could read about highly ranked democracies in real life that have monarchies such as Norway (#1), Sweden (#3) & Denmark (#5) that are also Scandinavian. This is above republics that are considered flawed democracies such as the United States (#T21) or Italy (#T21).

On the topic of Hobbes, the Political Science course I was actually taking at the time studied Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Hobbes & Locke. In some ways, the position could be considered as a "Philosopher Queen" or a "Leviathan" especially because in the latter it is avoiding the chaotic state of nature. But if I recall correctly the leviathan limited personal freedom, whereas I agree much more with Locke that the idea of a state should primarily be able to protect property rights, contracts and preventing individuals from inflicting violence on each other.

Yes those are lovely words you're putting down there but we're not talking about IRL nations, Solorni. We're talking about Balder. "But Balder is based on my favourite real life democracies!!" is not an answer to "When was your last election?". Does always dodging the actual question with pseudo-academic political babbling ever get exhausting?

Anyway -- what you're saying with that wall of irrelevance is you're unelected, right? That's what you're saying. You're a dictator.

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Onder Kelkia
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Postby Onder Kelkia » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:11 pm

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:I'm sure if the Canadian Prime Minister were doing the equivalent of proscribing entire nations based on lies or PNGing people because he doesn't like them to the point where it causes an international uproar, the Queen would take action. Because that is the Queen's job.

No regions have been proscribed based on lies and no persons have been declared persona non grata due to personal dislike. Such external controversy as has followed such decisions has come after the deterioration of relations with the parties concerned, not before. All regional proscription decisions are taken by a vote of the elected Storting, in all cases so far with unanimous support, and should not be presented as a personal decision of one individual.

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:
Solorni wrote:And Kerr was not supported by the opposition and when he was suggested as an ambassador, it was considered untenable. It seems little wonder why Kerrs involvement is considering an argument for Australia becoming a republic. Now I know why republicanism is so much stronger in Australia than it is in Canada which hasn't had that interference.

Again, an extremely poor example that completely goes against your argument.

Is that why Fraser had him made a Privy Counsellor and wanted him to be made a peer? Hmmmmmmmm.

Anyways, I know you're a smart girl and you got the point of what I was saying even if you are a bit mixed up on your history. If you want to continue this and learn a bit, feel free to meet me in NSG :hug:

The Queen is not mixed up on her history. The dismissal was far from uncontroversial, to put it mildly, and had adverse long-term consequences.

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:I think you have it a bit mixed up there, love.
Sahansahiye Iran wrote:Anyways, I know you're a smart girl [...] even if you are a bit mixed up on your history. If you want to continue this and learn a bit

Please address our Queen with greater respect.



Consular criticises the Queen because Balder does not have regular elections for Delegate. Khorsow criticises the Queen for not overthrowing the elected government and replacing it with one that matches the political preferences of himself and others outside Balder. Neither of these positions respects Balder's distinctive tradition as a constitutional monarchy and a parliamentary democracy, and in particular the role of the Delegate in that model. If they want a different model of governance, then there are other regions they can join, but Balder has no interest in outsiders telling us how to run our region.
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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:24 pm

Consular wrote:
Solorni wrote:Silitone is correct! If you'd like to read about the type of democracies that Balder is based on and how democracy works, you could read about highly ranked democracies in real life that have monarchies such as Norway (#1), Sweden (#3) & Denmark (#5) that are also Scandinavian. This is above republics that are considered flawed democracies such as the United States (#T21) or Italy (#T21).

On the topic of Hobbes, the Political Science course I was actually taking at the time studied Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Hobbes & Locke. In some ways, the position could be considered as a "Philosopher Queen" or a "Leviathan" especially because in the latter it is avoiding the chaotic state of nature. But if I recall correctly the leviathan limited personal freedom, whereas I agree much more with Locke that the idea of a state should primarily be able to protect property rights, contracts and preventing individuals from inflicting violence on each other.

Yes those are lovely words you're putting down there but we're not talking about IRL nations, Solorni. We're talking about Balder. "But Balder is based on my favourite real life democracies!!" is not an answer to "When was your last election?". Does always dodging the actual question with pseudo-academic political babbling ever get exhausting?

Anyway -- what you're saying with that wall of irrelevance is you're unelected, right? That's what you're saying. You're a dictator.

Oh, unfortunately discussing Locke et al is not pseudo-academical! You can actually read their books if you'd like; York University actually has a PDF of Two Treaties of Government. Also, let's be honest... a lot of features of NS regions are based upon RL nations. If you think about it, we actually replicate real life nation concepts even when it does not fully make sense. The whole concept of elected legislatures, monarchies, presidents, constitutions, many cabinet positions and much more are all based on real life far more than a concept that was developed to govern regions. That is, we imitate real life for the sake of it than to develop systems 100% to deal with NS problems efficiently.

Thus, I think it is perfectly valid to compare Balder to real life nations since this is where 90% of a region is actually based on rather than in game. I'd recommend researching what concepts like "dictator" or "autocracy" are, since it is very clear that either you do not understand what they mean or are purposefully misusing them. The separation of power and a system of checks and balances are important features in both real life democracies and in Balder as well as other democracies in the game. By that very definition of separating power and having checks and balances, Balder is inherently not a dictatorship nor an autocracy.

In fact, the power of the Balder monarchy and in particular the conventions I am bound to are stricter than say HEM's in Europeia when he was the Supreme Chancellor. I have not served in the legislature or the cabinet or as statsminister since becoming monarch. My proposals for changes for the region, such as directly electing the Statsminister or having a two house Storting where the new house would be for regional WAs are not approved of by the regional populace as a whole and the government. This is the antitheses of dictatorship or autocracy. It would be like calling the Queen of England a dictator and similarly it would make as little sense in real life.

You might call what you do not understand "pseudo-academic", but I do feel like these concepts are applicable to the game and one of the most academic things one can do is to take concepts and ideas from one field and apply them to other fields. It is what makes for example the study of history when you apply economic ideas and theories to it, quite special. Or when you apply the close reading you learned in University English to History. Or when you take the concept of logic and apply it to other fields. This concept of applying Locke's ideas is a very old one for me and I do greatly believe in it. When you look at how destructive purges can be or when leaders are too heavy handed, the damage that can be done... it is something I never wanted for Balder.

Particularly back in the beginning of my current term, I was happy with how former elected delegates were not purged or pushed out with the exception of one who couped. That has not been the case in all Game Created Regions. Similarly, the concepts of the Locke and Constant came out of a recognition about the mistakes made during the English Civil War, the French Revolution while still preserving the liberty that they espoused. In fact, it was different from Hobbes since Hobbes lived through the English Civil War similar to how Machievelli had lived through a very violent part of Italian history and their solutions were much more heavy handed.

I was always cognizant of that and the political environment that Balder grew up was very violent for GCRs and often quite horrifying for communities that had been effected by that. Especially since in one of my previous UCRs, when the founder couped... a lot of my friends from that community never came back to the game. Even if they tried, they just couldn't get back into it. So as corny as it sounds, it was important for me to try to create this balance where you could have a region without purges while still being democratic and it just seemed to make so much sense to approach it from a Locke sort of perspective.

Obviously it is not always perfect but a lot of it reflects my own style of being a consensus builder and trying to build solutions that work for as many people as possible. But that in many ways is the nature of democracy and trying to build an active and stable sinker with a vibrant and healthy community. It's boring but I've always been into boring stuff and I get that it's not for everyone. But hopefully this clears stuff up for you. I'd really recommend checking out some of Locke's works and reading about the Glorious Revolution.
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Sahansahiye Iran
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Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:47 pm

Onder Kelkia wrote:
Sahansahiye Iran wrote:I'm sure if the Canadian Prime Minister were doing the equivalent of proscribing entire nations based on lies or PNGing people because he doesn't like them to the point where it causes an international uproar, the Queen would take action. Because that is the Queen's job.

No regions have been proscribed based on lies and no persons have been declared persona non grata due to personal dislike. Such external controversy as has followed such decisions has come after the deterioration of relations with the parties concerned, not before. All regional proscription decisions are taken by a vote of the elected Storting, in all cases so far with unanimous support, and should not be presented as a personal decision of one individual.

EMN had existed for 2 weeks and had 10 citizens at the time of our proscription by you, based on our, what was it again? "Defender-Francoist propaganda". We didn't even have a bloody GP thread yet. We hadn't even released any official communique of ANY kind. But yes. Tell me more again about this "deterioration of relations with the parties concerned".

Onder Kelkia wrote:
Sahansahiye Iran wrote:Is that why Fraser had him made a Privy Counsellor and wanted him to be made a peer? Hmmmmmmmm.

Anyways, I know you're a smart girl and you got the point of what I was saying even if you are a bit mixed up on your history. If you want to continue this and learn a bit, feel free to meet me in NSG :hug:

The Queen is not mixed up on her history. The dismissal was far from uncontroversial, to put it mildly, and had adverse long-term consequences.

A decision being controversial does not make it bad, Onder. You may not be aware after having surrounded yourself with so many yesmen for so long.

Onder Kelkia wrote:
Sahansahiye Iran wrote:I think you have it a bit mixed up there, love.
Sahansahiye Iran wrote:Anyways, I know you're a smart girl [...] even if you are a bit mixed up on your history. If you want to continue this and learn a bit

Please address our Queen with greater respect.

She is not my Queen and I give respect where it is due. I will address her as I please as I am not one of your cronies to boss around. Thanks for your concern, though, aziz.
User formerly known as United Islamic Commonwealth and al-Ismailiyya.
Also known as Khosrow, Zarhust, or Lanian Empire.
Praetorian Prefect of EMN
Senator of EMN
Legatus of the Marian Legion
Integrator of EMN
A GCR Supreme General of the Contrarians
Iranian civic/cultural nationalist
Monarchist
Zoroastrian

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