Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

[Onder Kelkia]

You can say these things, Onder. But that's not what I'm hearing from anyone else. And there are a lot of dissatisfied citizens and a lot of people who used to be on the inside of your little schemes but now sit on the outside that are really, really willing to talk. Diplomacy and textwalls won't save you from the legion of frustrated people who know better.

They can "say these things" Altino, assuming your description of these comments is wholly accurate, but that doesn't alter the arithmetical reality that over four-fifths of Balder's citizenry cannot be outvoted by less than a fifth and that the citizenry of Balder has had many different compositions over the period from August 2016 to the present, yet governments led by me have been consistently popular throughout that period. The numbers simply don't work if your argument is that a very small portion of only LKE-Balder dual citizens is keeping me in power against everyone else's will. The nature of a democracy is that people have different views and there is no single party line. That does not invalidate decisive election results or the mandate given to my government.

[Syberis]

Onder isn't gonna address the other stupid things the government has done though.

[Onder Kelkia]

Onder isn't gonna address the other stupid things the government has done though.

If you are referring to the the question of Wymondham, he was declared persona non grata on 28 May 2018, after he lost citizenship earlier that month. It did not take 5 months for him to be declared persona non grata. If a person loses citizenship due to inactivity or lack of a nation in Balder, then they lose the legal protections that come with it and can expect to have action taken against them at the discretion of the Government as judged appropriate.

[Syberis]

Onder isn't gonna address the other stupid things the government has done though.

If you are referring to the the question of Wymondham, he was declared persona non grata on 28 May 2018, after he lost citizenship earlier that month. It did not take 5 months for him to be declared persona non grata. If a person loses citizenship due to inactivity or lack of a nation in Balder, then they lose the legal protections that come with it and can expect to have action taken against them at the discretion of the Government as judged appropriate.

The reason for this act is absurd. He poses no risk.

[Ryccia]

Balder: PNGing anyone Onder they doesn't don't like since 2011.

[Onder Kelkia]

If you are referring to the the question of Wymondham, he was declared persona non grata on 28 May 2018, after he lost citizenship earlier that month. It did not take 5 months for him to be declared persona non grata. If a person loses citizenship due to inactivity or lack of a nation in Balder, then they lose the legal protections that come with it and can expect to have action taken against them at the discretion of the Government as judged appropriate.

The reason for this act is absurd. He poses no risk.

If a person has said or done things which are hostile to Balder, then they are liable to no longer be welcome, regardless of future risk.

This is well-known. It is certainly not something that has only arisen this week.

[Th Empire of Wymondham]

Onder isn't gonna address the other stupid things the government has done though.

If you are referring to the the question of Wymondham, he was declared persona non grata on 28 May 2018, after he lost citizenship earlier that month. It did not take 5 months for him to be declared persona non grata. If a person loses citizenship due to inactivity or lack of a nation in Balder, then they lose the legal protections that come with it and can expect to have action taken against them at the discretion of the Government as judged appropriate.

Yet at no point did you at least have the courtesy to tell me I had been declared PNG, nor give me the opportunity to talk things over with you, you waited until my citizenship expired, knowing I was inactive and then declared me PNG with no right to appeal. Yet I was in your discord after May 2018. you only banned me recently. Yet you told me that a PNG meant immediate discord and forum ban. Also, i went on your forums on the 28th of June this year and did not know i was PNG. Yetif youa re masked as PNG you can only see 1 thing, a notice that you are masked as PNG. This shows you did not mask me, suggesting that you did not actually enforce my PNG declaration

[Onder Kelkia]

If you are referring to the the question of Wymondham, he was declared persona non grata on 28 May 2018, after he lost citizenship earlier that month. It did not take 5 months for him to be declared persona non grata. If a person loses citizenship due to inactivity or lack of a nation in Balder, then they lose the legal protections that come with it and can expect to have action taken against them at the discretion of the Government as judged appropriate.

Yet at no point did you at least have the courtesy to tell me I had been declared PNG, nor give me the opportunity to talk things over with you, you waited until my citizenship expired, knowing I was inactive and then declared me PNG with no right to appeal.

If you had valued your previous citizenship in Balder and were a genuine participant in our community, then you would have noticed before October that you had been effectively banned near the end of May, after losing citizenship for inactivity earlier that month.

Yet I was in your discord after May 2018. you only banned me recently. Yet you told me that a PNG meant immediate discord and forum ban.

This is not true. You were removed from the Discord in May 2018 at the same time as you were declared PNG.

You may not have noticed recently - revealing your lack of attention to Balder - but you were removed back then.

Also, i went on your forums on the 28th of June this year and did not know i was PNG. Yetif youa re masked as PNG you can only see 1 thing, a notice that you are masked as PNG. This shows you did not mask me, suggesting that you did not actually enforce my PNG declaration

I am looking at Balder's admin logs now. Your account was last edited on 28th May - the same date that you were declared persona non grata.

You were masked as PNG back in May. If you failed to notice then, then again you clearly weren't paying attention.

Incidentally, I am sure that I saw a discussion on the NSGP server some months ago among others noting that you had been declared PNG, precisely because they saw your account was in the relevant group on Balder's member list, which for some reason they were examining.

[Altinsane]

Oh, you can't PNG us if we're citizens? Quick, everyone, to Balder!

Your math is of course ridiculous to assume that the Cosmo LKE citizens who share citizenship in Balder are going to be less active and less apt to vote than the long time quiet, oppressed, well controlled masses of Balder who stay at home and do what they're told. Anyone running a region can tell you that culture and growth in the citizens of your region is purposeful. If you're systematically oppressing certain members of it rather than encouraging them to make their own path, they aren't going to fight back. Culture is a powerful thing. If your culture dictates that no matter who is in charge, NES and Onder are actually in charge, then that is what you'll get. It's the burden of those who lead to make sure that good work is rewarded and stagnancy dies. You can tell when a region is taking strides to accomplish this by how often new faces appear in their leadership teams. For example, in Osiris Mike, Lynx, Benja, Tethys, Pebble, LD, etc are probably all names that many of you are only vaguely familiar with, if you know them at all, but they're all empowered and working hard in Osiris and have the positions to prove it. In Balder, you've just elected the same Statsminister again who has chosen the same people for his cabinet. Where are your new faces? Which citizens of Balder feel empowered and able to say so if they disagree with their LKE lords?

You can push the math all day long, but all that says to me is that you aren't thinking about the people, you're thinking about the numbers. Balder is a capable and smart region, but it's government doesn't care for it, only that they retain power. That is unarguable, math or no math.

[Th Empire of Wymondham]

Snip

What I would like to ask you Onder is, at any point was my PNG announced or mentioned to anyone anywhere other than yourself? Because from what ive heard you just edited my account and walked off without having the courtesy and decency to notify me in any way. Even an announcment would have been better than noting, instead people who are looking at the users list get told before the person you've banned without trial or right to appeal and they have to find out via a casual conversation on a discord server, you could have just asked to talk to me and I'm pretty sure we could have resolved it.

[Onder Kelkia]

For example, in Osiris Mike, Lynx, Benja, Tethys, Pebble, LD, etc are probably all names that many of you are only vaguely familiar with, if you know them at all, but they're all empowered and working hard in Osiris and have the positions to prove it

Balder has exactly the same type of people.

They are in my cabinet, which works extremely hard fulfilling the priorities I regularly set them:

Minister of Foreign Affairs – Zander Cerebella
Minister of Integration – Fuzzy
Minister of War – Linkin Talleyrand
Minister of Culture – Cinder
Minister of World Assembly Affairs – Griffindor13
Minister of Gameside Affairs – Bran Triune

Empowered and working hard in Balder with positions to prove it. Linkin being the only LKE citizen, and a former Statsminister himself.

The arithmetic doesn't work for your bogus theory that LKE-Balder dual citizens are somehow outvoting more than four-fifths of Balder's electorate, so now you are arguing that we don't give positions to non-LKE people. That is simply untrue. I proactively offer government positions to all our citizens on merit.

What I would like to ask you Onder is, at any point was my PNG announced or mentioned to anyone anywhere other than yourself? Because from what ive heard you just edited my account and walked off without having the courtesy and decency to notify me in any way. Even an announcment would have been better than noting, instead people who are looking at the users list get told before the person you've banned without trial or right to appeal and they have to find out via a casual conversation on a discord server, you could have just asked to talk to me and I'm pretty sure we could have resolved it.

From "what ive heard", you mean from what you've learnt from me after asking.

We don't routinely announce PNG declarations for non-citizens after they have been discussed within the government. They are simply enforced. if they affected individual logs into our forums, they will see our PNG notice, advising them to contact the Statsminister with any queries.

[Th Empire of Wymondham]

Oh, you can't PNG us if we're citizens? Quick, everyone, to Balder!

Your math is of course ridiculous to assume that the Cosmo LKE citizens who share citizenship in Balder are going to be less active and less apt to vote than the long time quiet, oppressed, well controlled masses of Balder who stay at home and do what they're told. Anyone running a region can tell you that culture and growth in the citizens of your region is purposeful. If you're systematically oppressing certain members of it rather than encouraging them to make their own path, they aren't going to fight back. Culture is a powerful thing. If your culture dictates that no matter who is in charge, NES and Onder are actually in charge, then that is what you'll get. It's the burden of those who lead to make sure that good work is rewarded and stagnancy dies. You can tell when a region is taking strides to accomplish this by how often new faces appear in their leadership teams. For example, in Osiris Mike, Lynx, Benja, Tethys, Pebble, LD, etc are probably all names that many of you are only vaguely familiar with, if you know them at all, but they're all empowered and working hard in Osiris and have the positions to prove it. In Balder, you've just elected the same Statsminister again who has chosen the same people for his cabinet. Where are your new faces? Which citizens of Balder feel empowered and able to say so if they disagree with their LKE lords?

You can push the math all day long, but all that says to me is that you aren't thinking about the people, you're thinking about the numbers. Balder is a capable and smart region, but it's government doesn't care for it, only that they retain power. That is unarguable, math or no math.

Altino makes an excellent point, Tethys for example is my amazing deputy scribe who was appointed in may after becoming a citizen in march and will most likely succeed me when I step down, Benja became a citizen in May has has lead the most legion tag raids since. Lynxi became a citizen in June and is now a guardian and one of the 2 legion field commanders as well as a vizier. Balder on the other hand has appointed the same cabinet again, with the same people and stats minister. Balder does not encourage growth by promoting new citizens with exciting ideas. Instead the same old cabal rules balder and runs down what was once a great GCR into a shadow of its former self with there refusal to let go of power.

[Altinsane]

Well, no. Go back and read again. I'm arguing that even with a majority (even though we both know that all citizens voting in any election, and no one-Region citizens being coerced on how to vote via DMs is enormously unrealistic), oppressed people are culturally bound not to speak out. They do what they're told so they don't find themselves all suddenly stripped of position and titles and deposited outside of the region that they have called home for years so that the threat they pose to leaders only able to hold Power through manipulation can keep position.

[Onder Kelkia]

I'm arguing that even with a majority (even though we both know that all citizens voting in any election, and no one-Region citizens being coerced on how to vote via DMs is enormously unrealistic), oppressed people are culturally bound not to speak out. They do what they're told so they don't find themselves all suddenly stripped of position and titles and deposited outside of the region that they have called home for years so that the threat they pose to leaders only able to hold Power through manipulation can keep position.

Our government is inclusive and accommodates political rivals as well as those who have tended to support me. I have consciously ensured that it is representative of our political spectrum. No Balderans have been "suddenly stripped of position and titles and deposited outside of the region that they have called home for years". There has been no incident where anyone has been ejected from their positions and titles and deposited outside of Balder. This is fiction. I have historically had political disagreements with a couple of people in my cabinet, but I have still offered them positions on merit, as in any mature democracy in NationStates. The only Balder politician who you can argue has been excluded from our democracy is Wycliffe (or Ikania).

Wycliffe lost his citizenship due to his membership of the Grey Wardens, which is a proscribed organisation in Balder. His ties to Balder being very weak compared to the members of the Storting who unanimously voted to proscribe TGW. This is no basis for calling the people of Balder "oppressed".

Furthermore, it is false to suggest that the citizenry of Balder is coerced into voting in any way. We have a secret ballot, so it is impossible to always tell how individual electors have voted. It is possible that I might be online and notice how one or two people cast their vote, but that is hardly a systematic way of being consistently re-elected election after election. If there was any sizeable discontent to the degree you suggest, it would be picked up and would outweigh any votes from the smaller hypothetical LKE contingent that you posit routinely supports me. You cannot oppress people in a secret ballot.

If there is a political culture favourable to me, it is because I am a distinguished Balder statesman who has worked hard and successfully for Balder. I would think that would be a better route to electoral success and a more politically favourable position than being perceived as an outside interloper from the LKE. Now you may think it would be better for our voters to choose someone else. That is their right. But frankly, our politics is none of your business.

[Alkasia]

I know we've moved on to other stupid things already but:

A coup? Oh... nevermind then.

Deputy Officer of Foreign Affairs, The Rejected Realms's support for a coup of Balder is duly noted.

Can someone point me to the nearest wall I can hit my head against? And not one of Onder's walls preferably.

[Erithaca]

I know we've moved on to other stupid things already but:

Deputy Officer of Foreign Affairs, The Rejected Realms's support for a coup of Balder is duly noted.

Can someone point me to the nearest wall I can hit my head against? And not one of Onder's walls preferably.

You would be declared persona non grata for damaging a wall in Balder.

[Pergamon]

You people only see Balder in a negative light. There is actually a good thing about Balder, which is literally the best thing to happen:

Being declared PNG from it.

Onder, if this not a meme by now I'll make sure it becomes one.

[Erithaca]

You people only see Balder in a negative light. There is actually a good thing about Balder, which is literally the best thing to happen:

Being declared PNG from it.

Onder, if this not a meme by now I'll make sure it becomes one.

Oh boy I can't wait!

[Alkasia]

You would be declared persona non grata for damaging a wall in Balder.

Well I already am by association, but a personal one could be nice.

[RiderSyl]

I'm normally extremely indifferent towards Balder's affairs, but the PNG of Wymondham is a special circumstance. It's such overkill, and it makes Balder's government look very petty.

[Queen Yuno]

I too think Wym should not be PNGed. I remember defending him last month because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time

Despite not being friends with Wym, I believe Wym is most definitely not a leaker (I mean, that's universally frowned upon in NS,) he's just not afraid to speak up; OVER the years I've seen him not be afraid of being prosecuted based on what he says politically. I'm a huge fan of Wym for that reason.

I am staying out of this fight (As I love both Europeia AND Osiris,) except to vouch for the young NS player Wym. When you false-accuse such an innocent young player of leaking citizen chats without any proof, don't be shocked when he gets defended by other hardworking players who have seen his honesty and hard work in the game. Other than that, good luck resolving your disputes!

banning Wym who is an earnest player(although quite opinionated) is definitely overkill

[Consular]

Can I just say that unlike half of the people you accuse of this, I legitimately do support a coup of Balder.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Can I just say that unlike half of the people you accuse of this, I legitimately do support a coup of Balder.

Same though. I was holding back while Solorni is Queen because we've been friends for years, but Balder has messed with Osiris too much now.

Which is not to say I'm going to waste my time trying to coup Balder. But if one comes along, sign me up. I know a thing or two about couping a Sinker.

[Syberis]

I'm normally extremely indifferent towards Balder's affairs, but the PNG of Wymondham is a special circumstance. It's such overkill, and it makes Balder's government look very petty.

No joke, if Osiris did superlatives, Wym would probably win "Most Harmless." Dude's got opinions, but if any region feels the need to PNG him it betrays a certain level of fragility, because he's just a good, earnest kid.

[Flanderlion]

Can I just say that unlike half of the people you accuse of this, I legitimately do support a coup of Balder.

Liberation sounds good.

That said the PNGing others are complaining of doesn't seem a bad thing, overkill maybe, but like, if the person is cosmo, and inactive/not really contributing, what's the point of having them? Only issue with Balder's PNGs the way I see it is a lack of a super easy way of differentiating between OOC PNGs and IC ones, but I'm sure you can find out easily if you were checking.