Balder - State Opening of 19th Storting

[The Sygian]

Well, I guess the King of Balder is allowed to do has he pleases.

All hail.

[Ryccia]

Well, I guess the King of Balder is allowed to do has he pleases.

All hail.

Certainly, the Storting will vote in favour of His Majesty, OnderKelkia, holder of the United Crowns of Balder and the Land of Kings and Emperors.

[Ryccia]

It is indeed regrettable. Osiris is not the oldest ally of Balder, nor is Osiris the ally with which we are necessarily most ideologically aligned. Nonetheless, we have always placed a special value on our relationship with Osiris as our sister sinker. As it is, considering all the circumstances, Balder feels that that an amicable end to the alliance is the only appropriate decision for a sustainable relationship going forward. The decision was not taken lightly.

What a "special value" you placed on this relationship. Truly, it is astounding. You value it so, so much, that you torched it in a day. The decision was reckless, I believe. You can't seriously claim that your decision was taken seriously when an alliance between what is supposed to be a "sister Sinker", an alliance that has lasted for years, was closed in less than 24 hours because Balder, in the form of you as the Statsminster, felt insulted over a dispute between two other regions (is there even an effective Foreign Minister at Balder that gave a peep about the affair anyway?). You had the audacity to play the worst-hurt victim over some dispute between Europeia and Osiris (where Europeia apologized), then claimed that Osiris hated the IJCC from the start, and, instead of trying to clarify matters over the following days and save this relationship Balder oh-so values specially, you burned this overnight. Just a short round of talks, and, boom. The bridge is burnt.

Grow a spine, Onder.

[Onderkelkia]

What a "special value" you placed on this relationship. Truly, it is astounding. You value it so, so much, that you torched it in a day. The decision was reckless, I believe. You can't seriously claim that your decision was taken seriously when an alliance between what is supposed to be a "sister Sinker", an alliance that has lasted for years, was closed in less than 24 hours because Balder, in the form of you as the Statsminster, felt insulted over a dispute between two other regions

Without wishing to delve into unnecessary further detail which might creae further acrimony, all I would say is that (1) we feel the conduct demonstrated was of a sufficiently serious nature to warrant this response and (2) there is a longer history of concerns dating back at least a year and more specifically in relation to the IJCC issue of late, which has been elaborated on in the Government's address to the Storting. I don't intend to get into a further discussion.

(is there even an effective Foreign Minister at Balder that gave a peep about the affair anyway?)

The Foreign Minister of Balder is presently out of contact due to hurricanes curtailing his internet access in his home country.

The final decision was taken in conjunction with other members of the Cabinet and the members of the Monarchy, at the conclusion of talks with Osiris. These talks were lengthy and investigated options which would might have provided another way for the relationship to proceed on a sustainable footing.

As it is, we believe this is the most sustainable way forward for both regions.

You had the audacity to play the worst-hurt victim over some dispute between Europeia and Osiris (where Europeia apologized)

This is erroneous. This is the exchange I had with Syberis, in response to his comment suggesting Osiris should be offended by Balder's reaction:

If this is how Balder acts when we cut off one of their friends for misconduct, perhaps we should all have a very serious sitdown there.

Frankly, it is Balder and not Osiris which could have the only legitimate complaint about how either region has treated the other over this incident.

The details of my conversations with the Pharaoh have been published for the entire world without my permission. Osiris has ventured to suggest that that the Balder-Europeia Treaty is being violated without consulting Balder. And when we seek to clarify the matter, we are told it is none of our business.

If Balder's "anger" is evident in our response, it is because we are offended and surprised by this treatment.

This did not "play the worst-hurt victim over some dispute between Europeia and Osiris", because it did was not about that dispute. It was strictly indicating that, as far as the situation between Balder and Osiris only was concerned, Balder was the aggrieved party as a result of the actions listed.

As for your wider personal remarks, I have no intention of dignifying them with a specific response.

[Ryccia]

Well, I'd suggest presenting these reasons to the wider world soon, because Balder is looking like a joke right now to the face of NSGP, and maybe to its allies. Although, that isn't a surprise. Balder never changes.

[Onderkelkia]

Well, I'd suggest presenting these reasons to the wider world soon, because Balder is looking like a joke right now to the face of NSGP. Although, that isn't a surprise. Balder never changes.

We don't make foreign policy to please the people in this forum or the NSGP Discord server.

[Ryccia]

Well, I'd suggest presenting these reasons to the wider world soon, because Balder is looking like a joke right now to the face of NSGP. Although, that isn't a surprise. Balder never changes.

We don't make foreign policy to please the people in this forum or the NSGP Discord server.

Oh, certainly. But what about your allies? You've just burned bridges with one, and public opinion outside of Balder is in Osiris's favour.

[Consular]

Well, I'd suggest presenting these reasons to the wider world soon, because Balder is looking like a joke right now to the face of NSGP. Although, that isn't a surprise. Balder never changes.

We don't make foreign policy to please the people in this forum or the NSGP Discord server.

"foreign policy"

[Onderkelkia]

We don't make foreign policy to please the people in this forum or the NSGP Discord server.

Oh, certainly. But what about your allies? You've just burned bridges with one, and public opinion outside of Balder is in Osiris's favour.

We always work cooperatively with our allies to support their interests and objectives, just as they work cooperatively with us to do the same. As it is, after Osiris ended its alliance with Europeia, circumstances arose which led Balder to end its alliance with Osiris. That is where we stand and Balder is content.

The value of alliances is not in their existence but in the resulting relationships and cooperation between the parties.

As for "public opinion outside Balder", I would refer you to my previous answer. We play for our own long-term objectives; not the hostile NSGP audience.

The day we start changing that approach is the day we lose our independence.

[Jar Wattinree]

We always work cooperatively with our allies to support their interests and objectives, just as they work cooperatively with us to do the same. As it is, after Osiris ended its alliance with Europeia, circumstances arose which led Balder to end its alliance with Osiris. That is where we stand and Balder is content.

...circumstances that I conspired to create with my verbosity and desire to make Balder relevant again arose which led Balder to end its alliance...

[Augustus Rex]

The day we start changing that approach is the day we lose our independence.

He says from his account with an LKE flag, stationed in the LKE, having served as Emperor of the LKE before some players were born until only recently. Right. Losing independence is a concern. Balder stands independently of everyone, including LKE. Absolutely nothing about the overlap of membership between the LKE and Balder is a conflict of interest.

[Onderkelkia]

We always work cooperatively with our allies to support their interests and objectives, just as they work cooperatively with us to do the same. As it is, after Osiris ended its alliance with Europeia, circumstances arose which led Balder to end its alliance with Osiris. That is where we stand and Balder is content.

...circumstances that I conspired to create with my verbosity and desire to make Balder relevant again arose which led Balder to end its alliance...

On the contrary, we did not desire this outcome after Osiris terminated ties with Europeia over IJCC-related matters, even if we are content with it now.

We feel that the situation could have turned out very differently if Balder's reasonable concerns had been accepted and a new understanding found. Sadly, it was not possible to come to that understanding, so we are where we are. It is better for both regions not to be locked into a meaningless paper alliance.

The day we start changing that approach is the day we lose our independence.

He says from his account with an LKE flag, stationed in the LKE, having served as Emperor of the LKE before some players were born until only recently. Right. Losing independence is a concern. Balder stands independently of everyone, including LKE. Absolutely nothing about the overlap of membership between the LKE and Balder is a conflict of interest.

Anyone actually involved in the internal politics of Balder will know this to be nonsense.

LKE, like Europeia and previously TNI, has supported Balder with the Pact of Friendship from the week of its creation. Naturally, we have always been proud of those organic, deep and long-standing ties. But we are a different region and we have always made our own foreign policy separately in our own way.

[Augustus Rex]

LKE, like Europeia and previously TNI, has supported Balder with the Pact of Friendship from the week of its creation. Naturally, we have always been proud of those organic, deep and long-standing ties. But we are a different region and we have always made our own foreign policy separately in our own way.

And yet, you're doing this because of a perceived slight against a region that you serve as Justice in. You can't deny a conflict of interest here. It's not organic. Your position in Balder is entirely a result of your positions elsewhere. Your foreign interests are intertwined with other regions and not your own.

[Onderkelkia]

LKE, like Europeia and previously TNI, has supported Balder with the Pact of Friendship from the week of its creation. Naturally, we have always been proud of those organic, deep and long-standing ties. But we are a different region and we have always made our own foreign policy separately in our own way.

And yet, you're doing this because of a perceived slight against a region that you serve as Justice in.

Let me stop you right there. Balder is not doing this because of "a perceived slight against a region that you serve as Justice in".

Our statement reads: "This follows disrespect towards Balder revealed in Osiris's recent statement terminating its alliance with Europeia and the ensuing discussions." This relates to the specific items pertaining to Balder that have been highlighted as part of the public discussions previously. The wider justification presented to the Storting likewise relates Osiris's relations with Balder in the long term and IJCC as a whole more recently.

This is a decision that Balder made of its own accord, for its own interests, without input from Europeia.

[Augustus Rex]

Our statement reads: "This follows disrespect towards Balder revealed in Osiris's recent statement terminating its alliance with Europeia and the ensuing discussions." This relates to the specific items pertaining to Balder that have been highlighted as part of the public discussions previously. The wider justification presented to the Storting likewise relates Osiris's relations with Balder in the long term and IJCC as a whole more recently.

This is a decision that Balder made of its own accord, for its own interests, without input from Europeia.

And yet, there has been little identification of any disrespect. Indeed, this is somewhat surprising to a number of people who previously applauded the relationship the two sinkers shared. While you made the decision without input from Europeia, that does not mean it was not to serve foreign interests. It simply means you reacted further than they would have against a slight that was not against the region you suppose yourself to represent. This seems a peculiar occasion to act as a catalyst for the degradation of long-term relations. Then again, when your loyalty is to the sphere of imperialism, and not to the interests of a region itself, I rather think the instigation of the degradation understandable from your perspective. After all, if an ally won't always align itself entirely with your exact political beliefs, that makes it quite the precarious alliance.

I do not intend, of course, to comment on whether imperialism is good or bad, or to question the structures of the regions involved. I respect the regions in this situation. I merely think it a shame you are pushing Balder towards ending relations with a region that has not wronged you in any manner, and that has not acted towards degrading relations with you in any way. ("You" being Balder, of course)

[Benjabobaria]

By this point Balder resembles a decaying UCR with a backseat founder.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Out of curiosity, after the collapse of TNI, after the dissolution of the UIAF, after Albion's withdrawal from imperialism and transition to an RP community, and now after the alienation of Osiris, when does this sphere of regions intend to admit that some of your own are the problem, not everyone else?

You folks are undermining your own goals by allowing people like Onder and NES to make decisions for you. HEM's stated goal for the IJCC was to take on Francoism, but instead your treatment of Osiris here has validated claims that your sphere is a disrespectful menace to GCRs, even your own GCR allies. Surely you must realize your remaining GCR allies are seeing and paying attention to all of this, even if they're currently silent. If the IJCC's goal was to expand your power and influence in the world to combat the power and influence of Francoism, trying to accomplish that by alienating most of your GCR allies is, uh, an interesting approach. You are likely driving Osiris and who knows who else toward a much more regionalist mindset with your behavior here, because it looks very much like the Francoist critique of your sphere is proving quite true. The Onder-NES approach is doing you no favors.

[Onderkelkia]

Our statement reads: "This follows disrespect towards Balder revealed in Osiris's recent statement terminating its alliance with Europeia and the ensuing discussions." This relates to the specific items pertaining to Balder that have been highlighted as part of the public discussions previously. The wider justification presented to the Storting likewise relates Osiris's relations with Balder in the long term and IJCC as a whole more recently.

This is a decision that Balder made of its own accord, for its own interests, without input from Europeia.

And yet, there has been little identification of any disrespect.

Then I suggest that you need to re-read my posts on the subject in Osiris's thread.

You can argue that our reasoning is wrong, but you cannot plausibly argue that we have not identified what our problems are.

Out of curiosity, after the collapse of TNI, after the dissolution of the UIAF, after Albion's withdrawal from imperialism and transition to an RP community, and now after the alienation of Osiris, when does this sphere of regions intend to admit that some of your own are the problem, not everyone else?

The collapse of TNI was, in the long run, the result of a massive decline in activity stemming from the creation of Albion and, in the short run, the result of the dissolution of the UIAF, which was life support for TNI by early 2015, followed by a transition to a new forum where efforts to re-build activity failed.

The dissolution of the UIAF was a result of (1) Charles Cerebella standing down as King of TNI and King of Albion, when his personal role and ambition had been critical to securing Albion's participation in the alliance in the first place, indeed, it was a literal bargain where Gryfynn and I offered him the throne of TNI in exchange for bringing Albion into the UIAF, and (2) Cassius Cerebella's influence in Albion and his growing resentment towards TNI and the LKE, after he had been reprimanded over a series of incidents including: (a) his botched handling of the ISRA with Osiris and Balder, ironically alienating Osiris from UIAF; (b) his failure to log-in while serving as occupying delegate of Nazi Europe, allowing the forces of Right Wing Uprising to temporarily re-take the region for Nazis and Fascists; and (c) his failure to inform UIAF command of a deal he reached with The Black Hawks to transfer the lead and permit native ejections in the 2014 occupation of Canada, leading to a massive public controversy in Europeia (after the rules of engagement were adopted).

There was not much North East Somerset and I could have done about any of that, other than maybe deciding not to appease Albion in 2013, or perhaps accepting Charles Cerebella's reluctant offer to dismiss Cassius Cerebella altogether rather than publicly repirmand him over the Nazi Europe incident. However, if we had taken either of those steps, then the underlying tensions could have significantly escalated at an earlier stage in the process.

Albion's transition to an RP community was a stupid decision which ultimately contributed to killing what was a successful region in its UIAF days.

The "alienation of Osiris" here, insofar as Osiris's relations with Balder are concerned, isn't Osiris becoming alienated from Balder. Rather, it is Balder that has the grievances with Osiris. Osiris initially it has no issue with Balder. It is Osiris's actions which have alienated it from Balder, not vice versa.

HEM's stated goal for the IJCC was to take on Francoism, but instead your treatment of Osiris here has validated claims that your sphere is a disrespectful menace to GCRs, even your own GCR allies.

It is matter of record that Osiris decided to end all cooperation with IJCC, and later terminate its alliance with Europeia, for reasons related to certain Europeian officials' admitted inactivity and incompetence, as opposed to something related to Balder foreign policy. Relations between Balder and Osiris seriously deteriorated after that as a result of Balder's dissatisfaction that Osiris chose to terminate its treaty with Europeia in a way that infringed on Balder's interests. However, as a matter of chronology, you cannot reasonably attribute Osiris's attitude towards IJCC to Balder's subsequent decisions.

Balder is a GCR just as much as Osiris is. We don't accept a mindset whereby Osiris's concerns, grievances and priorities take precedence over ours.

[Xoriet]

Onder, all I’ve seen here is that Balder uselessly inserted itself into a conflict between a GCR ally and a UCR ally and chose to make a big deal out of something that barely if it even concerned you at all. You never had to get involved here. You never had to throw out Osiris. Osiris and Balder splitting all happened because you couldn’t keep your real interests concealed.

If you wanted to prove that your place in Balder isn’t committed to advancing the UCR agenda, you’re really doing a terrible job. The only one I’ve seen even make an effort in reality is Rach. You just tossed out an old ally for an ally that is solidly in your sphere. Are you openly revealing your intention to advocate for the classic Userite agenda on purpose? That’s what I see, and I assure you I’m not the only one.

[Kurnugia]

*munches*

At long last! A drama I am not involved in any way.

[Consular]

I like that you think so highly of me Onder, but speaking very honestly here, the reason Albion wanted to leave the UIAF was you. I didn't force anything. Happy to remain the boogeyman though if that suits you

Also as a point of history -- "Ironically" as you say -- my treatment of Osiris during the ISRA incident was actually following clear instructions from someone else. My statement, which as I recall made everyone in Osiris rather upset, was taken pretty much word for word from someone else. I wonder who eh?

There are a couple people playing games here. I think most folks are smart enough to know who

[Augustus Rex]

Then I suggest that you need to re-read my posts on the subject in Osiris's thread.

You can argue that our reasoning is wrong, but you cannot plausibly argue that we have not identified what our problems are.

If the reasoning is wrong, then are they really problems? Let me put it this way: Balder shouldn't have any problems with Osiris, and your hubris is getting in the way of this whole thing just being over.

[Jar Wattinree]

Balder shouldn't have any problems with Osiris, and your hubris is getting in the way of this whole thing just being over.

Exactly, couldn't have said it any better.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Onder, all I’ve seen here is that Balder uselessly inserted itself into a conflict between a GCR ally and a UCR ally and chose to make a big deal out of something that barely if it even concerned you at all. You never had to get involved here. You never had to throw out Osiris. Osiris and Balder splitting all happened because you couldn’t keep your real interests concealed.

If you wanted to prove that your place in Balder isn’t committed to advancing the UCR agenda, you’re really doing a terrible job. The only one I’ve seen even make an effort in reality is Rach. You just tossed out an old ally for an ally that is solidly in your sphere. Are you openly revealing your intention to advocate for the classic Userite agenda on purpose? That’s what I see, and I assure you I’m not the only one.

Spot on. All of Onder's obfuscation attempts can't conceal what's really going on here: Balder is choosing Europeia and The LKE over its years long alliance with Osiris, because Balder is firmly under the control of Europeia, The LKE, and their interests. There was never any reason for Balder to choose at all, but because these regions are so closely knit together, people like Onder and NES won't tolerate Balder remaining in an alliance with Osiris after Osiris terminated its alliance with Europeia. Differentiation between one of these regions' interests and another's isn't permitted.

[Onderkelkia]

Onder, all I’ve seen here is that Balder uselessly inserted itself into a conflict between a GCR ally and a UCR ally and chose to make a big deal out of something that barely if it even concerned you at all.

If that is what you say you see, then clearly you have not read the specifics of Balder's repeatedly stated concerns.

The matters we have discussed unequivocally pertain to Balder's interests.

In all frankness, given your well-advertised hostility to Balder and me personally, I am not surprised by your blinkered reading of events.

If you wanted to prove that your place in Balder isn’t committed to advancing the UCR agenda, you’re really doing a terrible job.

Balder does not want or need to prove anything. Our agenda is our own.

There is no such thing as "the UCR agenda". Balder has no interest in adopting your ludicrous Feederite/Userite view of the world.

I like that you think so highly of me Onder, but speaking very honestly here, the reason Albion wanted to leave the UIAF was you. I didn't force anything. Happy to remain the boogeyman though if that suits you

Highlighting your resentments and your gradual drift towards Defenderism as a result is no compliment.

Ultimately, the UIAF with Albion as a member was on borrowed time once Cerebella stopped being King of TNI, because Albion only joined UIAF because Cerebella became King of TNI. Without his personal role, it was never going to be sustainable and your resentment provided the perfect trigger.

My statement, which as I recall made everyone in Osiris rather upset, was taken pretty much word for word from someone else. I wonder who eh?

The reason that the UIAF needed to issue a statement was a result of your earlier conduct and the resulting unacceptable, insulting statements towards the UIAF as a whole in their legislature, as a result of their concerns relating specifically to your own behaviour. Osiris was already furious with you by then.

Then I suggest that you need to re-read my posts on the subject in Osiris's thread.

You can argue that our reasoning is wrong, but you cannot plausibly argue that we have not identified what our problems are.

If the reasoning is wrong, then are they really problems? Let me put it this way: Balder shouldn't have any problems with Osiris, and your hubris is getting in the way of this whole thing just being over.

The complaints laid out in Osiris's thread were discussed in detail there without any real rebuttal except to tell us that it is none of our concern.

Balder is satisfied that our concerns are well-founded.

---

Balder has set out its position in our statement. I see no benefit to continuing to re-litigate the matters at hand when the decision is made.

The various individuals and factions who don't want Balder to succeed will no doubt continue to spew their rubbish. We are uninterested.