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by Tano » Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:06 pm
Govindia: Do you consider me a friend, or just an acquaintance or what?
hobbes: I don't particularly consider anyone a true 'friend'
hobbes: at least,not on NS
Govindia: why is that?
hobbes: because
hobbes: everyone here is a jackass
hobbes: myself included
Pixie: *heart sploosh*
Tano: if your heart is splooshing you should contact a doctor
Tano: hearts are supposed to thump not sploosh
Pixie: No this is normal
Pixie: intense emotion causes me to hemorrage internally
Pixie: my life is like a really depressing comedic episode of The X-Files
Khron: we need an achievment of rem's face just for Tano
Pixie: haha
Pixie: "be Tano"
Brunhilde: My quotes should be in more signatures.
by Malashaan Colony » Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:49 pm
by Anumia » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:32 am
by Zaolat » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:36 am
Anumia wrote:I don't think it can be denied that a region with an effective military has more options at its disposal for pursuit of its foreign policy, and that having that military be flexible enough to perform a broad range of actions also widens its application. This is not to say a region must have a military, but obviously their options are by definition more limited as a result of not having one. Similarly, if a regional military only raids, or only defends, their options are more limited than if they do both. The military is a tool of foreign policy, and the stronger and more versatile it is, the better it may be applied in pursuit of foreign policy goals.
by Belschaft » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:36 am
Todd McCloud wrote:Looks good at first look, but I don't know about point IX, mostly because I think there are independent regions who don't really have a desire to maintain an army, whether it acts on situations by a case-by-case basis or not.
EDIT: I don't know if anything akin to this has been raised by earlier posts. I didn't read them.
by Solorni » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:53 am
by Kazmr » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:27 pm
Belschaft wrote: it is nevertheless first and first a military position
The military in an independent region is an instrument of foreign policy.
Armies are not 'Independent'; in an independent region, the army is simply an arm of the state, which in turn is independent.
by The Blaatschapen » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:58 pm
by Onderkelkia » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:08 pm
Kazmr wrote:Belschaft wrote: it is nevertheless first and first a military position
Thats quite different than what I've heard in the past :/ I've seen pleabty of arguments regarding independence as a military shut diwn by its defenders with the readoning that independence isnt a military position, but rather a regional stance and a foreign policy stance in which the military is a part of and a tool of the state... Is there some kind of disagreement to that effect within the independentist ranks?
Edit: example here: viewtopic.php?p=22168617#p22168617The military in an independent region is an instrument of foreign policy.
Armies are not 'Independent'; in an independent region, the army is simply an arm of the state, which in turn is independent.
The Blaatschapen wrote:Why is Kantrias not one of the signatories?
by Malashaan Colony » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:19 pm
The Blaatschapen wrote:Why is Kantrias not one of the signatories?
by Cormac Pendragon » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:21 pm
Solorni wrote:I've debated giving Cormac a more serious answer, but I feel like when he's defending independence again he'll be giving himself the best answers. So I'm unsure if answering questions he will later answer for himself is a worthwhile endeavour...
Malashaan Colony wrote:I would argue that it is important for an Independent region to be able to both raid and defend because, while they may ultimately determine that one or the other is in their policy interests, they should be ready to do either if their interests so require. International politics can be an unstable business, and just because one does not expect to undertake a certain kind of mission in the present does not necessarily mean the need to do so will not arise in short to medium term.
Malashaan Colony wrote:The question of whether Independent regions must maintain a military is an interesting one worthy of debate. However, I would start by observing that the Manifesto does not make this assertion. It asserts that an Independent region has a vested interest in having an effective military, which is more accurately characterized as a recognition that it benefits an Independent region to have an effective military - something I would say is indeed true. That does not mean a region cannot be Independent if it doesn't have a military, but rather that there will be advantages and avenues for pursuing their objective that are not available to them if they do not. Returning to the question of whether an Independent region needs to have a military, strictly speaking, probably not, but military policy adds a lot of weight to identifying as Independent. So much of what defines Independence relates to foreign policy, and in particular a rejection of the raider/defender dichotomy. Without a military a lot of the distinctions between identifying as Independent, Defender, Raider, or something else lose much or all of their meaning.
by Eluvatar » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:18 pm
Cormac Pendragon wrote:I would also note, again, that I believe a region can determine that it's in its interests never to invade other regions, given game mechanics. Even counterattack isn't definitively in a region's interests, even when such would be possible. Most treaties are based around mutual defense, so a region could very reasonably determine that defensive operations are the only type of operations that serve the regional interest.
by Onderkelkia » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:27 pm
Cormac Pendragon wrote:This is a valid point. Thank you for clarifying why the emphasis on maintaining a military, and thank you in general for more respectfully answering legitimate questions instead of dismissing them with petty or accusatory remarks as Rachel and Onder have done. You're a much better representative of the independent cause than either of them.
Onderkelkia wrote:There is a remarkable and coherent consensus on Independence, as has been expressed in this manifesto by leading Independent regions.
Osiris, Balder, The North Pacific, The West Pacific, Europeia, LKE, TNI, Albion, Equilism and Ainur have come to a unanimous view.
It is perfectly obvious that some are uncomfortable with this unity of purpose so seek to wish it away by suggesting there are differences.
by North East Somerset » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:47 pm
Eluvatar wrote:Cormac Pendragon wrote:I would also note, again, that I believe a region can determine that it's in its interests never to invade other regions, given game mechanics. Even counterattack isn't definitively in a region's interests, even when such would be possible. Most treaties are based around mutual defense, so a region could very reasonably determine that defensive operations are the only type of operations that serve the regional interest.
This was "The way things are done in civilized parts" by and large 2003-2006. We are unlikely to return to such a zeitgeist in the near future.
by Waldeck-Pyrmont » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:38 pm
by Onderkelkia » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:06 pm
Waldeck-Pyrmont wrote:This being an Independent conference is a load of the biggest defecation that could be mustered in one sitting. You cannot have an "Independent" anything when you include imperialist powers because that's missing the point of what an independent thing is. Independent means free from any faction, to do so what it pleases in gameplay without strings attached by side. Including major imperialist powers, therefore, crushed what this was about.
Not that I expected anything different from Euro.
by Waldeck-Pyrmont » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:33 pm
Onderkelkia wrote:Waldeck-Pyrmont wrote:This being an Independent conference is a load of the biggest defecation that could be mustered in one sitting. You cannot have an "Independent" anything when you include imperialist powers because that's missing the point of what an independent thing is. Independent means free from any faction, to do so what it pleases in gameplay without strings attached by side. Including major imperialist powers, therefore, crushed what this was about.
Not that I expected anything different from Euro.
There is no contradiction between the principles in this manifesto and a region seeking to aggressively expand and project its power (an imperialist region). Imperialist regions are as free as any other type of Independent region in their rejection of the raider/defender dichotomy as a basis for decision-making.
Indeed, Independence and imperialism share common origins in the foreign policy and military traditions of Great Britain and Ireland. In NationStates, imperialism is best understood as a variant of Independence, albeit a sub-categorisation with extra characteristics which not all Independent regions share.
by Anumia » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:12 am
Cormac Pendragon wrote:Again, though, doing one or the other often prepares a region to do both. Europeia, for example, primarily engages in invasions -- particularly for training, as its defensive operations usually aren't training operations -- and argues that these training tag raids keep its military active and well trained. So wouldn't defenses against tags serve as the same kind of comprehensive training? That's basically all I was getting at.
Eluvatar wrote:Cormac Pendragon wrote:I would also note, again, that I believe a region can determine that it's in its interests never to invade other regions, given game mechanics. Even counterattack isn't definitively in a region's interests, even when such would be possible. Most treaties are based around mutual defense, so a region could very reasonably determine that defensive operations are the only type of operations that serve the regional interest.
This was "The way things are done in civilized parts" by and large 2003-2006. We are unlikely to return to such a zeitgeist in the near future.
Waldeck-Pyrmont wrote:This being an Independent conference is a load of the biggest defecation that could be mustered in one sitting. You cannot have an "Independent" anything when you include imperialist powers because that's missing the point of what an independent thing is. Independent means free from any faction, to do so what it pleases in gameplay without strings attached by side. Including major imperialist powers, therefore, crushed what this was about.
Not that I expected anything different from Euro.
by Onderkelkia » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:11 am
Waldeck-Pyrmont wrote:Onderkelkia wrote:There is no contradiction between the principles in this manifesto and a region seeking to aggressively expand and project its power (an imperialist region). Imperialist regions are as free as any other type of Independent region in their rejection of the raider/defender dichotomy as a basis for decision-making.
Indeed, Independence and imperialism share common origins in the foreign policy and military traditions of Great Britain and Ireland. In NationStates, imperialism is best understood as a variant of Independence, albeit a sub-categorisation with extra characteristics which not all Independent regions share.
But to be independent is to be removed from a generalized factional system that is the norm.
Waldeck-Pyrmont wrote:This is quite hard to achieve when a region signs treaties with regions that are of the normal perscribed alignments (be it with TBR).
VI. An Independent region is not averse to collaborating with Raider, Defender, or other regions that do not subscribe to the Independent ideology. Such collaboration can exist on the basis of shared mutually beneficial interests, and on the condition that the other parties will acknowledge and respect the Independent region’s freedom to act in any capacity its self-interests dictate, and will not try to impose their own ideology on the Independent region.
Waldeck-Pyrmont wrote:This would then begin to pose the question "what is the point?" Stated is that the foreign policy aspect sets that Imperialist and Independent thought is very much intertwined, but doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Waldeck-Pyrmont wrote:To be truly Independent, one must not subscribe to the normal power playing areas in order to create a sort of "third way" for gameplay. An Imperialist-set Independent agreement is the exact opposite of said goals.
Waldeck-Pyrmont wrote:If treaties and agreements were to be cut with the major raider powers, then this would be true to its nature.
Waldeck-Pyrmont wrote:Until such is reached, it seems that it is just another foreign policy tactic that'll hold less viability then before; a mere formality to sugarcoat what's already occurring.
by ADarkGod » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:02 am
by Anumia » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:08 am
Monday, December 1st-
Sign-Ups!
Tuesday, December 2nd-
Just a Minute Game (7 PM US EST)(Hosted by Shin)
Wednesday, December 3rd-
Moth Radio Hour (Hosted by Calvin Coolidge)(3 PM US EST)
Live Q & A with Europeian President Malashaan (9 PM EST)
Thursday, December 4th-
Two Truths and a Lie (4 PM US EST) (Hosted by Calvin Coolidge)
What's the Catch? (6 AM US EST)(Hosted by Anumia)
Friday, December 5th-
Regional Overviews (30 mins: 2 Regions) (9 PM EST) (Hosted by PhDre)
Saturday, December 6th- Moth Radio Hour (Hosted by Calvin Coolidge)(4 PM EST)
Regional Overviews (30 mins: 2 regions) (9 PM EST) (Hosted by PhDre)
Sunday, December 7th-
plug.dj Winter Movie (3 PM US EST) (Hosted by WL)
*Two Truths and a Lie - holiday style! Two Truths and a Lie - holiday style! You call in and say 3 things about the holidays - i.e. "3 gifts they've received over the years," or "3 holiday traditions," or 3 different topics that all fit with the winter/holiday theme.
*What's the Catch? You get dialed in and are given, by the host, a headline for the news. You must then make up a story that fits the headline while being creative in doing so.
*Moth Radio Hour- Complete socialization and talk-show. The host will entertain the audience, and the audience can call in if they have something they want to say (or if they want to read a poem they wrote, or a fictional or real story).
*Winter Cultural Diversity- Talking about the different cultures and holidays that come with winter!
*Winter Spirit- Winter traditions, activities, etc.
*Just a Minute- Someone gets called in, and are given a topic by the host to talk about. They must talk on the spot, and talk for a minute!
*Regional Overviews- Interviews with someone from a region to discuss said region and go on an overview of said region.
*Live Interview with Europeia's President Malashaan- Self-explanatory. We will be holding a live interview where questions can be asked and answered.
by Anumia » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:41 pm
by Calvin Coolidge » Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:41 pm
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