People's Republic of The Communist Bloc

[Misley]

their support for the North Korea condemnation

Actually you're completely wrong. 94% of TCB voted against the condemnation AND our WA Delegate voted Against it. We were one of the LARGEST votes against that resolution and FOR its repeal. Again, you're just tossing out rhetoric you've heard.

I'm aware of what the vote was. When the region's "Dear Leader" comes out in support of it and then turns around and works with the people who wrote it to raid a leftist alliance, though, I think that says it all right there.

[Zenya]

Actually you're completely wrong. 94% of TCB voted against the condemnation AND our WA Delegate voted Against it. We were one of the LARGEST votes against that resolution and FOR its repeal. Again, you're just tossing out rhetoric you've heard.

I'm aware of what the vote was. When the region's "Dear Leader" comes out in support of it and then turns around and works with the people who wrote it to raid a leftist alliance, though, I think that says it all right there.

And we agreed to stop working with them to where now they don't want to speak to us, because that was one of the recommendations given to us by regions like Das Kommune so that we could negotiate a peace and friendship. Only to have it smashed by you, Ming, and your puppets by THREATENING them that if they so much as spoke to us, you all would cut off times with them. Its disgusts me.

[Easingtonshire]

Looks like Misley is scared by TCB threatening his dominance of Left themed regions.

[Comrade Anders Blakewood]

Ignoring your labels and attempted insults, what is so wrong with TCB carving our own way and path? Why must we alter our foreign affairs outlook, military alignment, or internal/foreign policy for another region or group of regions? TCB is strong, sovereign, and will resist all attempts of critics to try to change or influence our policies or our sovereignty. TCB has reached out has reached out to leftist regions for peace negotiations and our attempts were mocked and ignored, we will not have our time wasted any longer. If any region wants to approach TCB for peace, we are open, but we will not change our politics, policies, viewpoints, or alignment to please ANY region.

Frankly, any region or individual that continues to waste our time in a way like this is irrelevant.

Gee, I wonder why your attempts are mocked and ignored when you have a track record of attacking leftist regions? Were you really so naive to believe that we'd suddenly forget that when you made grand overtures of reaching out to the left and "broke ties" with Libertatem?

You can be sovereign all you want and carve your own way all you want. You don't have to alter anything. But you're not leftists. Just add the Monarchist tag and be done with it, since that's what your region really is - Balder/TNI/LKE/Albion-lite dressed up in shades of red.

Finding a spy in our region, and then reaching out to the left for peace is a grander and more forgiving gesture than has been directed toward us from the get-go. Including now with your reaction. Refresh on me on the attacks TCB has made on leftist regions? Other than Eastern Europe it seems we've tagged old TBR tags, hardly a permanent attack or seizure of a leftist region. Categorize TCB as you like, and lump us into whatever group you'd like, we are independent until WE say otherwise.

I hardly think helping Libertatem keep the region of a dead alliance (dead before the occupation), is attacking a leftist alliance.

I think Misley is scared of our dominance period

[Misley]

I don't have any dominance over leftist regions, and I'm certainly not scared of TCB, but nice try.

And we agreed to stop working with them to where now they don't want to speak to us, because that was one of the recommendations given to us by regions like Das Kommune so that we could negotiate a peace and friendship. Only to have it smashed by you, Ming, and your puppets by THREATENING them that if they so much as spoke to us, you all would cut off times with them. Its disgusts me.

They don't want to speak to you? Libertatem's President is mighty active on your RMB for someone who won't talk to you.

Am I really supposed to feel bad for your attempts to weasel into DK's good graces by trumpeting how you've "reached out to The Red Fleet" in your propaganda when that couldn't be further from the truth? Your attempts to use the Fleet's name to ingratiate yourself to the Left is shameful.

It also interests me how much TCB will cry about its sovereignty and regional direction when we take issue with it, but then they turn around and try to shame us for having the balls to cut relations with regions that buddy up with our enemies. Very, very telling.

[Zenya]

They don't want to speak to you? Libertatem's President is mighty active on your RMB for someone who won't talk to you.

I know this is a hard concept because you're so used to just being an authoritarian, but a leader's personal opinion in a democratic society is not always reflective of policy and public opinion. Just like with my personal support of condemning North Korea, I was very obviously in the 6% minority on that issue and our vote was Against my personal opinion because we live in a place where the people actually have choices and hold power. Idealism is my friend, but if you read Libertatem's RMB when we broke off, theyre obviously pissed at us and they even removed both their ambassadors from our region. Idealism is a citizen, and he is protected by our laws to stay.

Am I really supposed to feel bad for your attempts to weasel into DK's good graces by trumpeting how you've "reached out to The Red Fleet" in your propaganda when that couldn't be further from the truth? Your attempts to use the Fleet's name to ingratiate yourself to the Left is shameful.

I used TRF's name once in reference to me reaching out to you, which I did. You rejecting my request does not change the fact that I asked to work with TRF and reached out. In hindsight, that was a mistake and I'm thankful that we didn't work with TRF because you're a very unkind, unprofessional, and manipulative person. No wonder V Ming likes you.

[Misley]

I know this is a hard concept because you're so used to just being an authoritarian, but a leader's personal opinion in a democratic society is not always reflective of policy and public opinion.

Ha! That couldn't be farther from the truth. Not surprised to see you buy into Cuba's narrative, though.

I used TRF's name once in reference to me reaching out to you, which I did. You rejecting my request does not change the fact that I asked to work with TRF and reached out. In hindsight, that was a mistake and I'm thankful that we didn't work with TRF because you're a very unkind, unprofessional, and manipulative person. No wonder V Ming likes you.

Oh, did I hurt your feelings by turning you away? I guess you'll have no choice but to run back to all your monarchist friends and sycophant cultists to cheer you up.

[Comrade Anders Blakewood]

I know this is a hard concept because you're so used to just being an authoritarian, but a leader's personal opinion in a democratic society is not always reflective of policy and public opinion.

Ha! That couldn't be farther from the truth. Not surprised to see you buy into Cuba's narrative, though.

I used TRF's name once in reference to me reaching out to you, which I did. You rejecting my request does not change the fact that I asked to work with TRF and reached out. In hindsight, that was a mistake and I'm thankful that we didn't work with TRF because you're a very unkind, unprofessional, and manipulative person. No wonder V Ming likes you.

Oh, did I hurt your feelings by turning you away? I guess you'll have no choice but to run back to all your monarchist friends and sycophant cultists to cheer you up.

On a different note, your rhetoric is getting you nowhere but swarmed, and you're resorting to mocking in your argument, invalidating it. Explain to me how a leader cannot hold a personal opinion different than their policies.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Even [if] TCB wantonly attacked dither leftist regions, and indeed behaved more in the way us moral-less invaders do, I don't see how that prevents them from being leftist themselves. First off, it's both a RL politically viewpoint, and a gameplay alignment,
But furthermore, nowhere does being part of an alignment require you to work with all others in that alignment. If I made an imperialist region that attacked and reused to work with other
Imperialists....it'd still be imperialist. And if by some miracle it was a successful region,
With the power and allies from other alignments to be succeeding, it may even earn some
Respect for coming in and being the new alpha. They may not stand with other leftists,
But what about the prevents them from being one?

To be frank, I've seem and heard more from zenny than I have from the red fleet since I've been around. I have seen both, but TCB has seemed to me to be out more, and reaching out to more. With the obvious friction between you all, and your current dominance of the left as a whole,
TCB *has* to reach out to others for help and relations, and they've done that quite well. That doesn't Change your alignment either- the Hawks' close friendship with UIAF doesn't make us less raider and more imperialist.

[Misley]

Even [if] TCB wantonly attacked dither leftist regions, and indeed behaved more in the way us moral-less invaders do, I don't see how that prevents them from being leftist themselves. First off, it's both a RL politically viewpoint, and a gameplay alignment,

TCB has wantonly attacked other leftist regions. Das Kommune, CAPS, and now Eastern Europe. That kind of action tends to preclude positive relationships with other leftist regions because it violates the principle of leftist unity/solidarity.

I'm sure there are many real-life leftists that play in monarchist or other non-leftist regions in the game. That doesn't make them not leftists in real life. But TCB tries to portray itself as a leftist region within the context of this game. Some of their members might be "OOG" leftists, sure, but as an "IG" region they are hardly "leftist."

But furthermore, nowhere does being part of an alignment require you to work with all others in that alignment. If I made an imperialist region that attacked and reused to work with other
Imperialists....it'd still be imperialist.

There's a difference between working with all others in an alignment and openly attacking members of the alignment and then blaming the rest of the alignment for it.

And if by some miracle it was a successful region,
With the power and allies from other alignments to be succeeding, it may even earn some
Respect for coming in and being the new alpha. They may not stand with other leftists,
But what about the prevents them from being one?

I feel like I've stated fairly clearly what precludes them from being considered a leftist region.

To be frank, I've seem and heard more from zenny than I have from the red fleet since I've been around. I have seen both, but TCB has seemed to me to be out more, and reaching out to more.

The Red Fleet isn't trying to buddy-up to groups outside the leftist sphere. Different priorities.

With the obvious friction between you all, and your current dominance of the left as a whole,
TCB *has* to reach out to others for help and relations, and they've done that quite well. That doesn't Change your alignment either- the Hawks' close friendship with UIAF doesn't make us less raider and more imperialist.

No one is saying that TCB is doing a poor job of reaching out to others outside the leftist sphere. That's their prerogative. But they've shown that they'd sooner work with non-leftist groups to attack leftist targets than work with leftist groups. If they seriously don't understand why there's friction between us, then they're helplessly naive. If they think that their actions just be undone with a simple dispatch saying "we like leftists again!" without any substantial change in the region's policy, I don't know what they expect us to do. Roll over and accept them as the new Gameplay Approved™ overlords of The Left?

[The Rainbow Collective]

Are you really going to make the semantic argument that because you didn't lead the invasion, you're not invading, Zenya? I know how military gameplay works. That you didn't lead the invasion doesn't mean you aren't invading. Support for an invasion is still invading.

I'm not sure what others are finding so hard to grasp here. There are certain things that disqualify a region from being leftist, you can't just call yourself leftist and that's the end of it. A fascist region isn't leftist. A capitalist region isn't leftist. An imperialist region isn't leftist. Why? Because the left is anti-fascist, anti-capitalist, and anti-imperialist. A region that consistently works with the forces of capitalism and imperialism, not to liberate regions against invasions by fascists or to invade fascist regions, but to invade leftist regions, is not leftist. Working against the left with the enemies of the left disqualifies a region from being leftist.

This is true in the same way that a region that defends is not invader and a region that invades is not defender, and a region that adopts either ideology is not independent. A neutral region is not imperialist and an imperialist region is not neutral. The NationStates left is an actual sphere like any other and slapping the "Communist" or "Socialist" tag on a region doesn't automatically make you part of it without any consideration of what else you do.

[Zenya]

TCB has wantonly attacked other leftist regions. Das Kommune, CAPS, and now Eastern Europe. That kind of action tends to preclude positive relationships with other leftist regions because it violates the principle of leftist unity/solidarity.

False. We never attacked Das Kommune. That is a lie.

I'm sure there are many real-life leftists that play in monarchist or other non-leftist regions in the game. That doesn't make them not leftists in real life. But TCB tries to portray itself as a leftist region within the context of this game. Some of their members might be "OOG" leftists, sure, but as an "IG" region they are hardly "leftist."

No true Scotsman.

There's a difference between working with all others in an alignment and openly attacking members of the alignment and then blaming the rest of the alignment for it.

The last thing Lipno said to us before he was deleted was that the Left would destroy us and that the Leftist sphere has pushed many infiltrators into our region to influence our elections and force their candidates into office. Considering how many votes Lipno got under his alias Vyssi Brod with no platform or campaign, I'm starting to believe his rant. If there is an organized attempt to coup our region through elections and false citizenship applications, then yes I will continue to point fingers because he made plans public before the mods sorted him out.

I feel like I've stated fairly clearly what precludes them from being considered a leftist region.

No true Scotsman.

No one is saying that TCB is doing a poor job of reaching out to others outside the leftist sphere. That's their prerogative. But they've shown that they'd sooner work with non-leftist groups to attack leftist targets than work with leftist groups. If they seriously don't understand why there's friction between us, then they're helplessly naive. If they think that their actions just be undone with a simple dispatch saying "we like leftists again!" without any substantial change in the region's policy, I don't know what they expect us to do. Roll over and accept them as the new Gameplay Approved™ overlords of The Left?

We don't target leftists. We target targets. We've helped fighting Nazis and now we are helping the UIAF fight the FRA and those associating with FRA member regions.

[The Rainbow Collective]

We don't target leftists. We target targets. We've helped fighting Nazis and now we are helping the UIAF fight the FRA and those associating with FRA member regions.

But why? What has the FRA done to TCB? The FRA regularly defends regions, including leftist regions. The UIAF only bothers to defend leftist regions when they're invaded by fascists and they can score some good publicity.

The UIAF is imperialist, and with its prior hostility against the Red Liberty Alliance and its fairly regular invasions against leftist regions like Soviet Union and Eastern Europe it is an enemy of the left. That we sometimes work with the UIAF to invade fascists and liberate regions from fascist invasion is an occasional, unfortunate necessity, just as it is when the FRA or UDL work with them on liberations. That doesn't mean they are friends of the left and any leftist region worth its salt wouldn't work with the UIAF except against fascists, and certainly not against fellow leftist regions.

[Zenya]

I'm not sure what others are finding so hard to grasp here. There are certain things that disqualify a region from being leftist, you can't just call yourself leftist and that's the end of it. A fascist region isn't leftist. A capitalist region isn't leftist. An imperialist region isn't leftist. Why? Because the left is anti-fascist, anti-capitalist, and anti-imperialist. A region that consistently works with the forces of capitalism and imperialism, not to liberate regions against invasions by fascists or to invade fascist regions, but to invade leftist regions, is not leftist. Working against the left with the enemies of the left disqualifies a region from being leftist.

So working with imperialists and capitalists to achieve a mutual goal is ok? Its not every single time we do it But when its The Red Fleet or North Korea, no no no, thats totally different because uhh...... uhhh.... NAZIS, yeah thats right You know you're still propping up that organization, right? xD There is no difference, no matter the target. You're still working and cooperating with them. I don't care that you guys do, organizations like the UIAF are awesome, but don't slap us in the face when you know you'll be raiding with them again soon, spreading the great news of the UIAF.

slapping the "Communist" or "Socialist" tag on a region doesn't automatically make you part of it

It does if you are Eastern Europe

[The Rainbow Collective]

Do you ever address an actual argument or do you just nitpick small things and play semantics?

[Misley]

The Internationale has embassies with Lazarus (through our temporary home, The International - the embassy with TIe was destroyed on the refound). Are we a valid target for "associating with FRA member regions"?

You can chant "no true Scotsman" all you want, it is what it is.

[Misley]

So working with imperialists and capitalists to achieve a mutual goal is ok? Its not every single time we do it But when its The Red Fleet or North Korea, no no no, thats totally different because uhh...... uhhh.... NAZIS, yeah thats right

Uh, yeah? I don't see how this is even an argument. Attacking fascists is vastly different from attacking other leftists.

[Zenya]

But why? What has the FRA done to TCB? The FRA regularly defends regions, including leftist regions. The UIAF only bothers to defend leftist regions when they're invaded by fascists and they can score some good publicity.

My fight isn't with the FRA, its to support our many friends in the UIAF fighting their enemy, the FRA. As for their motives... ok? Yeah, publicity is something all organizations take part in, including the FRA O_o

The UIAF is imperialist, and with its prior hostility against the Red Liberty Alliance and its fairly regular invasions against leftist regions like Soviet Union and Eastern Europe it is an enemy of the left. That we sometimes work with the UIAF to raid fascists and liberate regions from fascist invasion is an occasional, unfortunate necessity, just as it is when the FRA or UDL work with them on liberations. That doesn't mean they are friends of the left and any leftist region worth its salt wouldn't work with the UIAF except against fascists, and certainly not against fellow leftist regions.

I think its that you don't really believe in any of the garbage you toss out from your mouth and that its only ok for you guys to work with the UIAF, meanwhile talking about how awful the UIAF is xD You're the biggest bunch of hypocrites I've ever met in my 6 years of playing this game. TI keeps blabbering about basically their being no middle ground, you are either one way or the other, meanwhile you guys apparently hate the UIAF, but constantly support their operations to spread their message? I have no problem with that, just shut up when we do, because there is no difference at all.

[Zenya]

The Internationale has embassies with Lazarus (through our temporary home, The International - the embassy with TIe was destroyed on the refound). Are we a valid target for "associating with FRA member regions"?

Go ask the UIAF I'm just going to by what the UIAF statement on Eastern Europe said.

You can chant "no true Scotsman" all you want, it is what it is.

I'm glad you're smart enough to know that what you're saying doesn't hold up in reality and you're using fallacies to argue.

[The Rainbow Collective]

I think its that you don't really believe in any of the garbage you toss out from your mouth and that its only ok for you guys to work with the UIAF, meanwhile talking about how awful the UIAF is xD You're the biggest bunch of hypocrites I've ever met in my 6 years of playing this game. TI keeps blabbering about basically their being no middle ground, you are either one way or the other, meanwhile you guys apparently hate the UIAF, but constantly support their operations to spread their message? I have no problem with that, just shut up when we do, because there is no difference at all.

The difference since you seem to be missing it:

We work with them against fascists. You work with them against leftists.

The UIAF is what it is, which is an imperialist military for imperialist regions. There is nothing hypocritical about working with them against fascists but not working with them in their more imperialist endeavors, just as the USSR worked with the United States and United Kingdom against the Axis but didn't work with the US and UK - and in fact often worked against them - in their imperialist efforts in the developing world. What is hypocritical is a region claiming to be Communist while supporting imperialist invasions of fellow leftist regions.

[Zenya]

We work with them against fascists. You work with them against leftists.

Yeah, not like we were there for Nazi Europe and Anne Frank That never happened.

[The Rainbow Collective]

We work with them against fascists. You work with them against leftists.

Yeah, not like we were there for Nazi Europe and Anne Frank That never happened.

Do you ever not deflect from the point? Because that isn't the point. Nobody is saying you don't work against fascists. The point is that other leftist regions only work with the UIAF against fascists, but TCB seems willing to support just about any UIAF invasion including invasions of leftist regions. That is the difference between TCB and every other leftist region with a functioning military.

[Zenya]

The point is that other leftist regions only work with the UIAF against fascists,

Wait... I thought Misley was the Master of the Universe who decided what is leftist and what isn't.... So now you are the ultimate authority on leftist procedure?

but TCB seems willing to support just about any UIAF invasion including invasions of leftist regions.

Because we've worked with them twice before this operation?
Noted.
3 = All.

That is the difference between TCB and every other leftist region with a functioning military.

So we did something you don't, hence not leftist? No, we are leftist and we will continue to identify as leftists because we are. You don't have that authority to say who is and who is not. Nobody does.

[The Rainbow Collective]

You are incapable of rational argument.

Saying that nobody has the authority to decide who is leftist is like saying nobody has the authority to decide who is defender, invader, imperialist, independent, or neutral. It's technically true - nobody can make you remove tags from your region - but the regions that comprise a particular sphere are perfectly capable of deciding another region doesn't belong in it and saying very clearly that it doesn't. The Communist Bloc, Dear Leader, does not belong in the leftist sphere, and the regions of the left - the regions and people that have defined the NationStates left and fought in Antifa since before you ever came along - are pretty much agreed on that point.

You can continue calling yourselves Communist but to the rest of us you are imperialists dressed in red.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I feel like I've stated fairly clearly what precludes them from being considered a leftist region.

Apparently not, because my understanding of the net points you've made is "Because they've attacked leftists regions they aren't one!" which is in my view a fundamentally flawed position - A raider region that attacks other raiders is still a raider region, even if they don't respect unity. An imperialist that conquers the lands of other imperialists is still imperialist. A defender group that refuses to work with other defenders or who defends regions from self-styled defenders who include a byline in the WFE to promote their own org is still a defender group. Why isn't a leftist that attacks other leftists not a leftist? Just because they are not part of your breed and brand of leftist doesn't make them inherently not leftist. From an outside point of view, they fly the red, support the glorious leader, keep up the historical conflict with Nazi's, and pass the propaganda, all of which damn sure makes them look like what we all consider leftist.