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The West Pacific Embassy, Coffee Shop and Tavern

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Aenglaland
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Aenglaland » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:12 pm

Pierconium wrote:And I know exactly what's under the carpet.


I'm sure you do.
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RiderSyl
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Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:17 pm

That Called the Vlagh wrote:Ridersyl, the non-democratic system in TWP has been stable for a very long time. The non-democratic system in The Pacific has been in place for over a dozen years. Someone is doing something right...


There's a big rock near my barn that hasn't moved in decades. "That rock is doing something right!" Uh... The rock doesn't make a cool spot to hang out. It doesn't provide anything to the life around it. It's boring, does nothing notable, and it's not even really worth talking about. It's just sitting there. Being the center of this analogy is the most noteworthy thing it's done since it dented the rear end of a jeep several years ago.

If what you guys aspire to is being the 'big rocks' of GCR's, then that's your own personal choice. Don't try to claim it's the "right" way to do it though. There's a lot to disagree with there.
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United RussoAsia
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Ex-Nation

Postby United RussoAsia » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:44 pm

Ridersyl wrote:
That Called the Vlagh wrote:Ridersyl, the non-democratic system in TWP has been stable for a very long time. The non-democratic system in The Pacific has been in place for over a dozen years. Someone is doing something right...


There's a big rock near my barn that hasn't moved in decades. "That rock is doing something right!" Uh... The rock doesn't make a cool spot to hang out. It doesn't provide anything to the life around it. It's boring, does nothing notable, and it's not even really worth talking about. It's just sitting there. Being the center of this analogy is the most noteworthy thing it's done since it dented the rear end of a jeep several years ago.

If what you guys aspire to is being the 'big rocks' of GCR's, then that's your own personal choice. Don't try to claim it's the "right" way to do it though. There's a lot to disagree with there.

Oh, stop. We're doing great. Our system works fine. There is more than one way to do things "right".
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RiderSyl
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Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:06 pm

United RussoAsia wrote:
Ridersyl wrote:
There's a big rock near my barn that hasn't moved in decades. "That rock is doing something right!" Uh... The rock doesn't make a cool spot to hang out. It doesn't provide anything to the life around it. It's boring, does nothing notable, and it's not even really worth talking about. It's just sitting there. Being the center of this analogy is the most noteworthy thing it's done since it dented the rear end of a jeep several years ago.

If what you guys aspire to is being the 'big rocks' of GCR's, then that's your own personal choice. Don't try to claim it's the "right" way to do it though. There's a lot to disagree with there.

Oh, stop. We're doing great. Our system works fine. There is more than one way to do things "right".


I don't like your system, personally, but "Ridersyl doesn't like TWP system" doesn't mean much. You're in a better position to say whether you're doing great or not, since nobody outside of TWP can ever really tell how TWP is doing. And yes, there's more than one way to do things 'right'.

But, that's.. not what the conversation was really about. The comment you replied to was addressing Vlagh's flawed viewpoint of "being there a long time" = "doing things right". You don't believe that too, do you?
Last edited by RiderSyl on Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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That Called the Vlagh
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Postby That Called the Vlagh » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:32 pm

Ridersyl wrote:
United RussoAsia wrote:Oh, stop. We're doing great. Our system works fine. There is more than one way to do things "right".


I don't like your system, personally, but "Ridersyl doesn't like TWP system" doesn't mean much. You're in a better position to say whether you're doing great or not, since nobody outside of TWP can ever really tell how TWP is doing. And yes, there's more than one way to do things 'right'.

But, that's.. not what the conversation was really about. The comment you replied to was addressing Vlagh's flawed viewpoint of "being there a long time" = "doing things right". You don't believe that too, do you?

Are you constantly placing dynamite under the rock near your barn? I ask because your analogy is flawed in that the rock sits in a peaceful environment without constant threats and attacks (presumably), thereby making its static nature sanguine and accidental.

TWP (and TP to a much, much greater extent) has dealt with near constant threats from outside forces wishing to impose their so-called moral superiority onto the internal workings of the region. Infiltration, sedition, and outright war have been the standard in many instances.

So, yes, I stand by my position on TWP as 'doing something right' - not just by being stable and long lasting, but by doing so under external pressure and duress.

If you were using TNT or a bulldozer on your rock and it miraculously resisted the pressures of explosion or demolishion then I would think there was something special about it.
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Ikania
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ikania » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:56 pm

Not only stubborn, but paranoid too?
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That Called the Vlagh
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Postby That Called the Vlagh » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:19 am

Ikania wrote:Not only stubborn, but paranoid too?

How so? As of a few days ago yet another group declared war upon TWP. It isn't paranoia if the threats are real.
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RiderSyl
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Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:39 am

That Called the Vlagh wrote:Are you constantly placing dynamite under the rock near your barn? I ask because your analogy is flawed in that the rock sits in a peaceful environment without constant threats and attacks (presumably), thereby making its static nature sanguine and accidental.

TWP (and TP to a much, much greater extent) has dealt with near constant threats from outside forces wishing to impose their so-called moral superiority onto the internal workings of the region. Infiltration, sedition, and outright war have been the standard in many instances.


Oh, yeah.... Warzone Europe, Warzone Airspace, Warzone The West Pacific. :roll:

That Called the Vlagh wrote:How so? As of a few days ago yet another group declared war upon TWP. It isn't paranoia if the threats are real.


They aren't.

Keeping with the rock analogy, the threats have been like a series of kids walking up to the big rock, unrolling a piece of paper, and saying "I hereby decree we are at war" then doing nothing.
In fact, that's what 99% of threats against GCR governments are, regardless of system.

It's funny that the same one labeling others as "uninformed" is having to be informed.
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That Called the Vlagh
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Postby That Called the Vlagh » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:41 am

Ridersyl wrote:
That Called the Vlagh wrote:Are you constantly placing dynamite under the rock near your barn? I ask because your analogy is flawed in that the rock sits in a peaceful environment without constant threats and attacks (presumably), thereby making its static nature sanguine and accidental.

TWP (and TP to a much, much greater extent) has dealt with near constant threats from outside forces wishing to impose their so-called moral superiority onto the internal workings of the region. Infiltration, sedition, and outright war have been the standard in many instances.


Oh, yeah.... Warzone Europe, Warzone Airspace, Warzone The West Pacific. :roll:

That Called the Vlagh wrote:How so? As of a few days ago yet another group declared war upon TWP. It isn't paranoia if the threats are real.


They aren't.

Keeping with the rock analogy, the threats have been like a series of kids walking up to the big rock, unrolling a piece of paper, and saying "I hereby decree we are at war" then doing nothing.
In fact, that's what 99% of threats against GCR governments are, regardless of system.

It's funny that the same one labeling others as "uninformed" is having to be informed.

Most feeder coups start out as a small group of determined individuals with a loose plan. I know. If you ignore the minor threats then they become major ones before you know it.
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Riftey
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Ex-Nation

Postby Riftey » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:58 am

I can't say I'm fond of a system which is rather elitist and if you're not in the top crowd that there will be a lot of ass kissing and back office "favors" to get ahead - but it's Workd for TWP and there is no denying that.

I don't feel we can somehow conclude they aree "innactive" because they are undemocratic either.

They'll do their thing. We'll do our thing. Nephmir will continue to threaten them. Archmont will continue to act like they have 4000 endorsements. Russ will get more active as delegate.

All is swell it seems xD
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RiderSyl
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Postby RiderSyl » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:03 am

That Called the Vlagh wrote:
Ridersyl wrote:Keeping with the rock analogy, the threats have been like a series of kids walking up to the big rock, unrolling a piece of paper, and saying "I hereby decree we are at war" then doing nothing.
In fact, that's what 99% of threats against GCR governments are, regardless of system.

It's funny that the same one labeling others as "uninformed" is having to be informed.

Most feeder coups start out as a small group of determined individuals with a loose plan.


Do you actually look at these war declarations and think "Possible coup"? Really?
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Topid
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Founded: Dec 29, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Topid » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:05 am

That Called the Vlagh wrote:
Ridersyl wrote:
Oh, yeah.... Warzone Europe, Warzone Airspace, Warzone The West Pacific. :roll:



They aren't.

Keeping with the rock analogy, the threats have been like a series of kids walking up to the big rock, unrolling a piece of paper, and saying "I hereby decree we are at war" then doing nothing.
In fact, that's what 99% of threats against GCR governments are, regardless of system.

It's funny that the same one labeling others as "uninformed" is having to be informed.

Most feeder coups start out as a small group of determined individuals with a loose plan. I know. If you ignore the minor threats then they become major ones before you know it.
Every feeder coup in the last four years has come from the inside of the couped government, not the outside. It's almost always a legitimate delegate that goes bonkers. Unless you are not paying attention, the game has evolved to make external threats all but completely irrelevant. It's kinda boring like that. :p
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RiderSyl
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Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:06 am

Topid wrote:Every feeder coup in the last four years has come from the inside of the couped government, not the outside. It's almost always a legitimate delegate that goes bonkers. Unless you are not paying attention, the game has evolved to make external threats all but completely irrelevant. It's kinda boring like that. :p


Shh, Topid. We're just
That Called the Vlagh wrote:uninformed and unaffected nations chiming in on matters that do not concern them.

:p
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Funkadelia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Funkadelia » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:13 am

I'm confused by the reaction of some people which is to take that attitude of "HAHA LOOK AT THESE FOOLS THINKING SOMETHING IS WRONG AND STICKING THEIR NOSES WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG."

Most people are genuinely concerned, as one would be when you see a sudden, unannounced change of delegacy. All that's required is a little notification before or even just after, saying something like "Hey everyone, X, Y, Z are happening just so you know." Like Topid said, all of the coups of the last four years have been inside the government, so we are just all kind of worried when we see something like that, no matter what GCR it's in. Pardon us for just wondering why these things are happening.
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RiderSyl
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Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:15 am

Well said, Funk. The attitude you're pointing out is pretty toxic on the part of those reacting with it.
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That Called the Vlagh
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Postby That Called the Vlagh » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:15 am

Topid wrote:
That Called the Vlagh wrote:Most feeder coups start out as a small group of determined individuals with a loose plan. I know. If you ignore the minor threats then they become major ones before you know it.
Every feeder coup in the last four years has come from the inside of the couped government, not the outside. It's almost always a legitimate delegate that goes bonkers. Unless you are not paying attention, the game has evolved to make external threats all but completely irrelevant. It's kinda boring like that. :p

External support for an internal upheaval still derives from the same source, outside influences.

So, while I agree (and to somewhat address the point made before yours) that it is highly unlikely that any of these external minor threats will lead directly to an invasion capable of unseating a ruling Delegate, that does not mean that they can't cause doubt and internal conflict which might lead to an internally supported coup.

I do not view all threats equally, nor do I necessarily give credence to them as legitimate. But, I do monitor the possible long term implications that these minor threats might have on the thoughts of future generations. I see Nations States as a longue durée construct. Just because the community wishes to discount minor threats today does not mean that a single charismatic nation may not grasp hold of those ideals and cultivate them within the system over a long period of time.

So, I seek to crush opposition at the source. To pound dissent into oblivion before it can take root. To not only thwart future conflict, but drive the contentious elements into dust.

Paranoid? Perhaps. But it has worked for me so far.
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That Called the Vlagh
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Postby That Called the Vlagh » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:17 am

Funkadelia wrote:I'm confused by the reaction of some people which is to take that attitude of "HAHA LOOK AT THESE FOOLS THINKING SOMETHING IS WRONG AND STICKING THEIR NOSES WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG."

Most people are genuinely concerned, as one would be when you see a sudden, unannounced change of delegacy. All that's required is a little notification before or even just after, saying something like "Hey everyone, X, Y, Z are happening just so you know." Like Topid said, all of the coups of the last four years have been inside the government, so we are just all kind of worried when we see something like that, no matter what GCR it's in. Pardon us for just wondering why these things are happening.

The government of TWP is not beholden to the Nation States community in regards to their internal workings.
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RiderSyl
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Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:18 am

That Called the Vlagh wrote:
Topid wrote:Every feeder coup in the last four years has come from the inside of the couped government, not the outside. It's almost always a legitimate delegate that goes bonkers. Unless you are not paying attention, the game has evolved to make external threats all but completely irrelevant. It's kinda boring like that. :p

External support for an internal upheaval still derives from the same source, outside influences.

So, while I agree (and to somewhat address the point made before yours) that it is highly unlikely that any of these external minor threats will lead directly to an invasion capable of unseating a ruling Delegate, that does not mean that they can't cause doubt and internal conflict which might lead to an internally supported coup.

I do not view all threats equally, nor do I necessarily give credence to them as legitimate. But, I do monitor the possible long term implications that these minor threats might have on the thoughts of future generations. I see Nations States as a longue durée construct. Just because the community wishes to discount minor threats today does not mean that a single charismatic nation may not grasp hold of those ideals and cultivate them within the system over a long period of time.

So, I seek to crush opposition at the source. To pound dissent into oblivion before it can take root. To not only thwart future conflict, but drive the contentious elements into dust.

Paranoid? Perhaps. But it has worked for me so far.


Alright, I can't find anything to argue with here. Good job explaining your position. :)
Last edited by RiderSyl on Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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That Called the Vlagh
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Postby That Called the Vlagh » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:20 am

Ridersyl wrote:
That Called the Vlagh wrote:External support for an internal upheaval still derives from the same source, outside influences.

So, while I agree (and to somewhat address the point made before yours) that it is highly unlikely that any of these external minor threats will lead directly to an invasion capable of unseating a ruling Delegate, that does not mean that they can't cause doubt and internal conflict which might lead to an internally supported coup.

I do not view all threats equally, nor do I necessarily give credence to them as legitimate. But, I do monitor the possible long term implications that these minor threats might have on the thoughts of future generations. I see Nations States as a longue durée construct. Just because the community wishes to discount minor threats today does not mean that a single charismatic nation may not grasp hold of those ideals and cultivate them within the system over a long period of time.

So, I seek to crush opposition at the source. To pound dissent into oblivion before it can take root. To not only thwart future conflict, but drive the contentious elements into dust.

Paranoid? Perhaps. But it has worked for me so far.


Alright, I can't find anything to argue with here. Good job explaining your position. :)

Thank you.
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Luxdonia
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Founded: Jun 22, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luxdonia » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:32 am

Riftey wrote:I can't say I'm fond of a system which is rather elitist and if you're not in the top crowd that there will be a lot of ass kissing and back office "favors" to get ahead - but it's Workd for TWP and there is no denying that.

I don't feel we can somehow conclude they aree "innactive" because they are undemocratic either.

They'll do their thing. We'll do our thing. Nephmir will continue to threaten them. Archmont will continue to act like they have 4000 endorsements. Russ will get more active as delegate.

All is swell it seems xD

You are incorrect by implying that Archmont ever declared war on the Pacific. The actions of mine when I established the Republic of the Pacific was that of an individual and not of my region. Archmont is a roleplay region so I don't believe we will ever in the future attempt a GCR coup.

BTW, we don't have 4000 endorsements; we have six. :p
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Riftey
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Posts: 489
Founded: Jun 19, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Riftey » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:56 am

Luxdonia wrote:
Riftey wrote:I can't say I'm fond of a system which is rather elitist and if you're not in the top crowd that there will be a lot of ass kissing and back office "favors" to get ahead - but it's Workd for TWP and there is no denying that.

I don't feel we can somehow conclude they aree "innactive" because they are undemocratic either.

They'll do their thing. We'll do our thing. Nephmir will continue to threaten them. Archmont will continue to act like they have 4000 endorsements. Russ will get more active as delegate.

All is swell it seems xD

You are incorrect by implying that Archmont ever declared war on the Pacific. The actions of mine when I established the Republic of the Pacific was that of an individual and not of my region. Archmont is a roleplay region so I don't believe we will ever in the future attempt a GCR coup.

BTW, we don't have 4000 endorsements; we have six. :p

Does it say anywhere there that you declared war on them? I stated take the ideological war elsewhere. You've also been warned about linking your copious region in not their threads multiple times. So honestly I have no idea where you grabbed that from. X'D

And you act as if you do buddy
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Darkesia
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Founded: Mar 01, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Darkesia » Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:47 am

Take it outside boys. Please. :)
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United RussoAsia
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Founded: Jan 22, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby United RussoAsia » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:20 pm

Darkesia wrote:Take it outside boys. Please. :)

Money's on Vlagh :p
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That Called the Vlagh
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Ex-Nation

Postby That Called the Vlagh » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:45 pm

United RussoAsia wrote:
Darkesia wrote:Take it outside boys. Please. :)

Money's on Vlagh :p

Without a doubt.

But, I believe Darkesia was referring to Luxdonia and Riftey.
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Tano
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Ex-Nation

Postby Tano » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:50 pm

United RussoAsia wrote:
Darkesia wrote:Take it outside boys. Please. :)

Money's on Vlagh :p

But of course, Palpatine is almost always superior.
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