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PNN: Escade Motions for Belschaft's CSS Removal

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PNN: Escade Motions for Belschaft's CSS Removal

Postby Pacific News Network » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:44 am

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Controversy in The South Pacific, Bel Calls "Coup"
Tensions Regarding Forum Administration Hit a Breaking Point


Fri, Mar 21 2014 || Pacific News Network

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Tsu, Southern Bellz, and HEM look on in resignation while discussing what to do next.

The South Pacific — Following Root Administrator Hileville's decision tonight to remove Southern Bellz, HEM, Tsunamy, and Rebel-topia tonight, several citizens, including the removed admins, have fervidly disagreed with the shakeup and called for action against Hile.

This is the third controversial instance of an admin being removed, with Todd McCloud and Belschaft being the two previous subjects of administrative switches. Belschaft, a current Committee for State Security member and, as mentioned, an administrator until two weeks ago, has notably distributed a telegram to the nations of TSP referring to Hile's actions as a "coup" (read it at the bottom of the page). Alongside these claims, Minister of the Army Southern Bellz call Hileville a "coward", assemblyman Cormac Stark is advocating for abandoning the current forum altogether, and other administrators are condemning Hile for being a dictatorial, even "rogue", root administrator.

Meanwhile, Delegate Escade applauds the move, saying that she supports the replacement administrators, Kringalia and Glen-Rhodes, and so does assemblyman Unibot. Their statements mostly appreciate the fact that Hile removed the old administrator for what he alleged to be "inactivity" and, in the case of Southern Bellz, the lack of "real desire to complete the basic tasks of an admin". Impartial responses to this claim about SB have thus far found it to be true, and SB has known to be less active as an administrator ever since the change from Zetaboards to independent hosting. HEM has been removed as an administrator due to inactivity on two occasions, and, in contrast to this instance, his first removal was accepted without disagreement from the community.

Kris and GR were chosen as the duo's replacement because they are active and respected in TSP, and because they expressed interest in serving as administrators. Hile acknowledges the unfair workload he has comparative to other administrators as a reason for the shakeup and says that he hopes the replacements will help him maintain the forum that he has tried to make the "most rewarding forum experience" in the GCRs. Throughout the years, his efforts to improve TSP's forum have been widely applauded, his dedication has been praised, and his leading presence in TSP has earned him a mix of both respect for his loyalty and contributions and dissent for being one of the controlling senior figures in the vocally democratic GCR.

With that said, a key aspect of the criticisms towards Hile are derived from the recent removal of Belschaft from the administrative team, which may have been a trigger for the eruption of tensions. According to Belschaft, all of the administrators who were stripped of their access tonight opposed his demotion, and hence he questions whether or not Hile had an ulterior political motive. Belschaft also accuses Hileville of issuing a fiat prohibiting administrators from further discussing his demotion with anyone, including Bel himself, and that they were not allowed to vote on the matter. Evidence below supports the claim that a gag order was in fact issued. He suggests that the administrators were removed for not complying with this expectation.

Link: Belschaft's submitted evidence of Hileville's gag order.

Otherwise, the primary points of dispute are whether or not Hile is entitled to remove the administrators without a vote and whether or not that action is justified. Historically, the TSP Administration Team has voted on membership additions and expulsions, albeit votes amongst administrators became less frequent at around the time when Hileville, Milograd, Belschaft, and Southern Bellz served as staff on the zetaboards board forum that were created due to invision server woes. This, however, was done mostly due to agreement that rendered voting superfluous and due to a lack of votes to be had, rather than due to an intentional abandonment of the old system. Hile cites the loss of Milograd from the administrative team as an event that gave him significantly more administrative tasks to perform and hence started the cycling of new administrators; in the aftermath of the SPSR, more administrative switches -- including the loss of mainstay Fudgetopia -- have occurred than at any other time in the region's long history. The practice of letting the root administrator handle staffing changes, rather than the team as a whole, appears to have started during this time.

In his announcement, Hile prefaces with, "On the 12 of February I informed the admin team via a thread in our private discussion area that a possible shakeup was going to happen," before revealing the post, shown below. It is immediately clear from its texts that the voting system of old is not being used to determine whether or not "changes may be made". He adds that none of his fellow administrators responded to his post. Later in his announcement, he also invests a lot of emphasis on the extent of his dedication to the forum's maintenance and his strong disinterest in being an administrative "dictator". Regardless of knowing about the possibility of strong backlash, his statement indicates that he is willing to take that consequence, for better or worse.

I have made it known to several people that I am looking into a shakeup on the admin team which would result in fewer admins being more active on admin tasks. I wanted to have this thread which will serve as a heads up that changes may be made in the near future. I will be contacting a few of you to work on new moderation policies which will change the way we moderate the forums. Ultimately, I believe a change in culture is needed and am looking at ways to make that happen.


Southern Bellz and HEM condemn the removals in their immediate responses to the announcement itself. They both cite a lack of communication between the administrative team as a problem and insult Hile's capabilities as a manager; however, perhaps more notably, Southern Bellz offers evidence to suggest that some administrators were not as inactive as Hile has alleged. He offers onlookers this recent message that was exchanged between Tsunamy, who happens to be the old root administrator of TSP, to Hile in an administrative conference chat:

And Hile -- if we need something done, that's not getting done -- let us know. Or at least let me know. I'm more than willing to help out, but I've just been bouncing in and out as of late.


Both sides in the dispute claim to have a justification for the controversial actions they have performed in causing or responding to this incident. All three are amongst the most influential players in the South, as Hileville, Belschaft, and Southern Bellz are the only players in TSP's post-Devonitians history that hold the distinction of being former delegates who are still citizens. This conflict between them, being the first ever public one of such a scale, will almost certainly impact the course of both TSP's history and internal stability, unless cooler heads quickly prevail.

The nations of The South Pacific will awake tomorrow and will receive Belschaft's advisory about coup d'état to the region, and their responses to the event may serve as a contributing factor to the escalation of both the event's severity and the in-game region's confusion. His message encouraged nations to speak out against the "coup" on the RMB, and the day will tell whether or not they do so.

PNN sends its regards to the nations of The South Pacific and will follow this story as it develops.


The Grumpy Old Fart of South Pacific Belschaft → region: the South Pacific

Morning folks,

This morning a coup occurred in our region, though you probably won't have realized it. The root admin of our offsite forums - where we base our government - has gone rogue, and removed every other active member of the admin team without consultation, prior notice, or anything even approaching consent. He did this having failed to get his own way in an internal admin matter, when a previous action he had taken was objected to by the rest of the admin team. He is currently in the process of drafting new admins, who he presumably expects to do as he tells them.

Right now the region is in a certain amount of chaos; there is no physical way for us to remove the root admin. In practical terms he controls our forums. But he does not control this region. This region is a community. What is more, it is a democracy. Decisions are made collectively, not unilaterally. And no one individual can force their will on the region. At least, not yet.

As we speak our root admin - Hileville - is moving to increase his control of the forums, and by extension this region. Our present government has yet to respond. How they do respond will largely be shaped by the reaction of you, the people who make up TSP. The question is simple; are you willing to live in a dictatorship? For that is the logical conclusion we are faced with, unless Hileville is forced to back down by the region. Only you can do that.

If you want TSP to remain a free, democratic region, then speak out on the RMB and our forums. Let Hileville know that he does not own this region, as he clearly thinks he does.

Yours,
South Pacific Belschaft
Former Delegate
Member of the Committee for State Security


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Postby South Pacific Belschaft » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:55 am

It should be noted that immediately prior to the removal of every single active admin aside from Hileville, he issued a fiat forbidding further discussion of my removal as an admin, ordered the admin team to not discuss the matter with me, and prohibited the admin team from voting on the matter.

Rebels, HEM, Tsu and SB refused to comply with these orders. As such, they have been removed as admins.
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Editor's Note

Postby Pacific News Network » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:13 am

EDITOR'S NOTE: Bel, that allegation has been added to the section regarding your removal from the administration team. However, it will remain as an "allegation" until such a time where enough relevant commentators, including Hileville, have had the opportunity to provide their accounts of the event and their reasons for their opinions.
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Postby Shadow Afforess » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:26 am

Hilleville should have read The Prince:

Upon this, one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge.


He might be able to salvage this if he bans and ejects the ex-admins now.
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Postby South Pacific Belschaft » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:29 am

Shadow Afforess wrote:Hilleville should have read The Prince:

Upon this, one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge.


He might be able to salvage this if he bans and ejects the ex-admins now.

Unlikely; he doesn't control the in game delegacy. Even if he did, the CSS has a fairly large pile of influence stockpiled; ever since the Milograd coup we've been expanding our internal security body.
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:34 am

South Pacific Belschaft wrote:
Shadow Afforess wrote:Hilleville should have read The Prince:



He might be able to salvage this if he bans and ejects the ex-admins now.

Unlikely; he doesn't control the in game delegacy. Even if he did, the CSS has a fairly large pile of influence stockpiled; ever since the Milograd coup we've been expanding our internal security body.

You should revolt against Escade, start a new forum, and have JAL/me help maintain your delegacy. Just saying.
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Postby South Pacific Belschaft » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:35 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
South Pacific Belschaft wrote:Unlikely; he doesn't control the in game delegacy. Even if he did, the CSS has a fairly large pile of influence stockpiled; ever since the Milograd coup we've been expanding our internal security body.

You should revolt against Escade, start a new forum, and have JAL/me help maintain your delegacy. Just saying.

Yeah, for some reason I don't think that will happen.
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Postby Zaolat » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:50 am

South Pacific Belschaft wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:You should revolt against Escade, start a new forum, and have JAL/me help maintain your delegacy. Just saying.

Yeah, for some reason I don't think that will happen.


I think TSP will be in better hands with Mall.
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Postby The North Polish Union » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:57 am

South Pacific Belschaft wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:You should revolt against Escade, start a new forum, and have JAL/me help maintain your delegacy. Just saying.

Yeah, for some reason I don't think that will happen.

Why not? Mall and JAL are the most successful GCR delegates ever. ;)
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Postby Pacific News Network » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:44 pm

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Breaking News: Escade Requests Belschaft's Removal from TSP CSS Amidst Hileville ADMIN Debate
Do the Allegations Hold Up? — "Character Assassination", "Political Maneuvering", and "Unethical Administrative Abuse"


Sun, Mar 23 2014 || Pacific News Network

The South Pacific — In response to Belschaft's region-wide announcement about a "coup" by Hileville in The South Pacific, and in response to what she has called a "character assassination" against Hileville, Delegate Escade has intensified her condemnation of Belschaft's condemnation of Hileville's administrative actions by proposing the removal of Belschaft from the Commitee for State Security, the group of endorsee and security officials in TSP.

In her statement, she cites that acts of "administrative" abuse towards her, particularly in the form of telling her that "Big Brother [was watching her]", and states that it is her opinion that Belschaft's outrage is largely inspired by a desire for political gain.

That statement, titled "Unethical Behavior and the Abuse of CSS Membership", may be found in this link. PNN speculates that Escade's allegations regarding administrative abuse will not hold much weight with the CSS — unfortunately, many other players have been cautious and watchful of her after she was alleged of being an Empire plant — by Belschaft come to light in wake of this or the group currently in agreement with Belschaft have a change of heart or get defensive.

Notwithstanding that claim's consequences, Belschaft's ostensibly secure CSS membership may, in fact, have been put into jeopardy by his telegram. He signed it as a CSS member, which Escade argues as being an act that feigns the CSS' support of it, and she is of the opinion that the message's hyperbolic rhetoric and strong calls for action caused considerable disturbance in the region that other members had to quickly jump at to calm. The RMB was covered in almost ten page's worth of comments of both concern in the aftermath of the telegram's distribution. This large response elevated to the point where it became necessary for Escade alter the region's world factbook entry to clarify what had happened.

Meanwhile, talks between those supporting Hileville and those opposing his continued board administration have hit a stalemate, as Hileville refuses to continue to work with the removed parties. He is no longer interested in hosting the community's website or paying for it, and is hoping to give the database to a new owner as soon as possible. The board is currently expected and planned to be transferred to Tsunamy's control unless developments are made either at the originally set deadline — tomorrow — or a proposed one that would occur in a week's time. Hileville has also designated Tsunamy with an SOP flag in #The_South_Pacific on irc.esper.net.

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Postby Hileville » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:13 pm

Pacific News Network wrote:Hileville has already granted Tsunamy control of #The_South_Pacific on irc.esper.net.


This is incorrect. No successor has been chosen for #The_South_Pacific at this time. Tsunamy has been given SOP now that his nick is registered.
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Postby Pacific News Network » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:22 pm

Hileville wrote:
Pacific News Network wrote:Hileville has already granted Tsunamy control of #The_South_Pacific on irc.esper.net.


This is incorrect. No successor has been chosen for #The_South_Pacific at this time. Tsunamy has been given SOP now that his nick is registered.

I thought you did.

EDIT: I see what happened now. You gave him FS, not F outright. Fixed.
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Postby Hileville » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:23 am

Pacific News Network wrote:
Hileville wrote:
This is incorrect. No successor has been chosen for #The_South_Pacific at this time. Tsunamy has been given SOP now that his nick is registered.

I thought you did.

EDIT: I see what happened now. You gave him FS, not F outright. Fixed.

That still isn't entirely accurate. Todd is the current successor. Asta, Raven, and Tsu also have the successor flag.
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Postby Pacific News Network » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:32 am

Those people have had the tag for a while, whereas Tsu is currently being suggested as the new root admin and was given the flag 13 hours ago, which connects to the story, obviously. It was noted as something to reference regarding his standing in this and to suggest a connection between the two events, rather than as a review of the flags in #TSP.

Nonetheless, for the sake of clarity, the technical name for the flag has been replaced to acknowledge that he is not the successor. He was, however, marked as a successor.

irc.esper.net wrote:+S Marks the user as a SUCCESSOR.
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Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:08 pm

FYI, the link to Escade's thread is no longer accessible. It has been moved to a secure sub-forum, where she had intended to post it in the first place.

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Postby Distortilla » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:22 am

The South Pacific is currently unavailable
These forums are now closed.

I truly regret ever getting involved in this region. The drama that is in this region is self inflicted and every bit of it has been deserved. Taking on the root admin position was not something I wanted to do. An admin vote initiated the move to the IP Boards and is a vote I wish never happened. This job has been nothing but a headache since taking it on and I wish Tsu the best of luck.

Tsu and GR can download a copy of the database now from the link that was provided to Tsu earlier in the week. The file that is there is the most recent version of the database available.


Although it has been stated that steps are being taken to re-establish the forums via a different provider - technically there is currently no forum.

Which raises a few questions:

  • Is Hileville technically guilty of forum destruction
  • If there is no forum, is the citizenship conferred via that forum now technically invalid?
  • If it is, does that imply that the Government selection process also no longer valid as the infrastructure that supported it has been removed
Last edited by Distortilla on Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby The Grim Reaper » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:03 am

Distortilla wrote:
Although it has been stated that steps are being taken to re-establish the forums via a different provider - technically there is currently no forum.

Which raises a few questions:

  • Is Hileville technically guilty of forum destruction
  • If there is no forum, is the citizenship conferred via that forum now technically invalid?
  • If it is, does that imply that the Government selection process also no longer valid as the infrastructure that supported it has been removed


Well, that forum still 'exists', just not in a publicly available or user-friendly format.

In the same sense, the government and the citizens still exist on paper just as much as they did when that database was being hosted on the Hile forums. The only legitimacy lost is that which was conferred by the fact it was hosted on a forum Hile was root of - and it is not considered an NS norm for the root admin to be important in conferring legitimacy to a forum, rather they are on occasion merely are detrimental on legitimacy where the person considering legitimacy disagrees with the root admin. For example, Todd was not particularly active in Osiris, and neither was Zao, during periods where they were root admin.
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Postby Distortilla » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:45 am

The Grim Reaper wrote:
Distortilla wrote:
Although it has been stated that steps are being taken to re-establish the forums via a different provider - technically there is currently no forum.

Which raises a few questions:

  • Is Hileville technically guilty of forum destruction
  • If there is no forum, is the citizenship conferred via that forum now technically invalid?
  • If it is, does that imply that the Government selection process also no longer valid as the infrastructure that supported it has been removed


Well, that forum still 'exists', just not in a publicly available or user-friendly format.

In the same sense, the government and the citizens still exist on paper just as much as they did when that database was being hosted on the Hile forums. The only legitimacy lost is that which was conferred by the fact it was hosted on a forum Hile was root of - and it is not considered an NS norm for the root admin to be important in conferring legitimacy to a forum, rather they are on occasion merely are detrimental on legitimacy where the person considering legitimacy disagrees with the root admin. For example, Todd was not particularly active in Osiris, and neither was Zao, during periods where they were root admin.


Thanks for responding without resorting to emotive outrage, I've tried to discuss this on the regions RMB and feel like I'm trying to explain quantum physics to a kindergarten! :blink: :unsure:

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Postby Cormacville » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:47 am

Distortilla wrote:Is Hileville technically guilty of forum destruction

He is guilty of Crashing, according to the (in my view, flawed) definition provided by the Convention on Offsite Property Security (COPS). Whether he is thus guilty of actual forum destruction is a separate issue, and a debatable one, and in my view he is not. Nonetheless, regions that have signed COPS are technically obligated to prosecute him for Crashing.

For those who are unfamiliar with the text of the COPS treaty, it's here. That link goes to the copy of COPS found in the UDL's Naivetry Reference Library.

Edit: I'll add because I don't think I made this clear enough that I don't think Hileville should be prosecuted in any region because I don't think he committed forum destruction. It's clear his intention was to ensure continuity of the forum, by ensuring others could download the database, despite taking the forum offline. Nonetheless, COPS doesn't make any kind of distinction like that; if one causes a forum to go out of service or lose information, period, one has crashed that forum according to COPS. This is the biggest problem with COPS. But regions should withdraw from COPS before prosecuting someone who clearly is not guilty of Crashing, just because the flawed definition of COPS mandates it.
Last edited by Cormacville on Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby the Imperial Crown » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:20 am

I will speak briefly on what I am aware of regarding the move in forums (as a Global Moderator on the now closed TSP.org forum).

1. In a vote in the Assembly Private Chambers, the majority of votes were leaning towards an IPB Forum hosted by QuietDad. QuietDad has already said that he wants nothing to do with the running of the community and that Tsu would be root, or rather Head Admin in this case.

2. As far as I am aware, an export and import to a myBB forum on a free host did not go as planned.

3. Tsu and Glen Rhodes have access to the forum database which contains all content that was on the forum up until the time it was closed. This can be imported onto QuietDad's server with minimal fuss and loss of data. The only thing I anticipate losing will be IP.Content which I believe TSP had installed as QuietDad has said that he's never felt the need to purchase any addons for the IP.Community Software. I do not believe any data will be lost only displayed in a different manner.
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Postby Todd McCloud » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:15 am

Yeah I can confirm we had a vote and at the time of my voting the vote was strongly in the "move the boards to QD's server" option. Currently no forum crashing / destruction here.
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Postby Kringalia » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:25 am

Distortilla wrote:Thanks for responding without resorting to emotive outrage, I've tried to discuss this on the regions RMB and feel like I'm trying to explain quantum physics to a kindergarten! :blink: :unsure:

You have argued in the RMB that never mind the 11-year history of democracy of the Coalition, it has no legitimacy whatsoever. That is your opinion, and we have argued against it. Just because you think you are right it doesn't mean we are children being explained quantum physics. For once accept that your opinions are not the absolute truth that everyone must embrace.
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Postby Punk Daddy » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:23 am

Yes, no forum crashing.

Unfortunately, Hileville no longer wishes to host the forums and thus we have to move. We've been evicted!

Hopefully we'll have a new home shortly.
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Postby North East Somerset » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:50 am

1. Given Hileville has made the database available he is clearly not trying to Crash the forums. Nonetheless the fact they are down because of action he took for a non-technical reason, and apparently he changed the deadline, so obviously he cant be entirely blameless in this affair by any means.
2. Surely this should serve as a lesson in why it is best to stick with free forum hosting software. For the limited extra features you get the risk of this sort of thing occurring is just not worth it, never mind the political issues with the ROOT being able to claim financial "ownership" over the community.
Last edited by North East Somerset on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:09 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Le Petit Prince
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Posts: 45
Founded: Mar 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Le Petit Prince » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:15 am

Well said NES, well said. :)

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