NationStates

Evil Lord Sauron wrote:It's only really been in 'decline' since the switch in raider tactics towards update raiding. Previously it was raiders who complained about raids being too easy to spot and it too slanted towards defending. Once the switch to update raiding, mimicking defender liberations from late 2010 early 2011 raiders have seen a marked success. This has led also to a rise in raiders frequenting these forums something that pre-2011 would have been difficult to imagine.

I'm sorry but no, absolutely not. None of the above is correct at all. Raiders have been update raiding since pre-Influence, there was no change it tactics regarding that unless you count raiders getting more accurate in finding the times, and even then we were doing that fairly well in 2008. As far as Invaders not frequenting the forums until about 2011? Simply not true.

Mahaj wrote:That's because your actions are immoral.

The true mark of a Defender Zealot.

Evil Wolf wrote:

Mahaj wrote:That's because your actions are immoral.

The true mark of a Defender Zealot.

Now, let's not be silly puppy.

Coraxion wrote:
Wrong. Every action what [sic] can hurt UDL is morally Right thing to do.

Emphasis mine. So if we are playing the Zealot game..... clearly Mahaj isn't winning.

Plus everyone knows Mahaj is not a Zealot. I heard he once made out with a Raider.

Defender zealots wouldn't do that, since they find all raiders icky.

Evil Wolf wrote:

Mahaj wrote:That's because your actions are immoral.

The true mark of a Defender Zealot.

If only he brought such zealotry to the battlefield, he might make a successful defence every now and then.

Actually, I think it's such zealotry that gets UDL into quite a lot of trouble off the battlefield. Their "I'm a Defender, therefore I'm correct" attitude didn't win them friends in any of the Pacifics, that's for sure.

Mad Jack wrote:

Evil Wolf wrote:
The true mark of a Defender Zealot.

If only he brought such zealotry to the battlefield, he might make a successful defence every now and then.

Its almost like I'm a sitting delegate after a successful liberation.

Evil Wolf wrote:

Evil Lord Sauron wrote:It's only really been in 'decline' since the switch in raider tactics towards update raiding. Previously it was raiders who complained about raids being too easy to spot and it too slanted towards defending. Once the switch to update raiding, mimicking defender liberations from late 2010 early 2011 raiders have seen a marked success. This has led also to a rise in raiders frequenting these forums something that pre-2011 would have been difficult to imagine.

I'm sorry but no, absolutely not. None of the above is correct at all. Raiders have been update raiding since pre-Influence, there was no change it tactics regarding that unless you count raiders getting more accurate in finding the times, and even then we were doing that fairly well in 2008. As far as Invaders not frequenting the forums until about 2011? Simply not true.

Mahaj wrote:That's because your actions are immoral.

The true mark of a Defender Zealot.

There was update raiding pre-2011 but when you are 5-10 minutes ahead or even after the region has updated, it's a shadow on what we currently see post 2011.

Not quite sure what you are getting at with the links. I didn't say there weren't any raiders on the forums, I said there was a rise in raiders frequenting them post 2011. Leading up to today when you have the more vocal and majority voice (at least on these forums), which was the point I was originally trying to make, but reading back was poorly worded.

Evil Wolf wrote:Actually, I think it's such zealotry that gets UDL into quite a lot of trouble off the battlefield. Their "I'm a Defender, therefore I'm correct" attitude didn't win them friends in any of the Pacifics, that's for sure.

From your forum:

The Raiders

The military strike force and essence of the Lone Wolves United. Targets, seizes, and holds foreign regions to expand our empire. Also home to the mysterious Zealot Wolves.

Give a dog a bone, give a dog a bone....

Me thinks you have forgotten who the true Zealots are supposed to be.

When did raiders decide they wanted to be cute and cuddly like us?

Mahaj. There are not much space for moral argumentations on the R/D Gameplay in The NationStates. Hard to understand why this is basis of UDL propaganda.

We are fighting for control of some directory addresses here.

How anyone can be so naive to think otherwise? It's Morally Right to do everything to make that Fact Clear to everyone.

No more Defender Fallacies, please. Just make your appearance on the Battle Fields and everything will be fine again. At least more entertaining and more interesting.

Evil Lord Sauron wrote:There was update raiding pre-2011 but when you are 5-10 minutes ahead or even after the region has updated, it's a shadow on what we currently see post 2011.

That's not true either. The Shamrock Union and Halc were doing some of the first tag style raids as early as 2010, also with accuracy within a few seconds.

Evil Wolf wrote:

Evil Lord Sauron wrote:There was update raiding pre-2011 but when you are 5-10 minutes ahead or even after the region has updated, it's a shadow on what we currently see post 2011.

That's not true either. The Shamrock Union and Halc were doing some of the first tag style raids as early as 2010, also with accuracy within a few seconds.

Also from your region:

8. The Challenge

We're outnumbered, but we sure aren't outgunned. I play RTS and TBS a lot, and frankly I never let myself get into the situation the raiding community is in now, we're completely outmatched, but thats almost the fun part. Every time we win a battle with the fenders its a massive accomplishment.


7. The Theory

Fender tactics essentially boil down to throwing hundreds of men at a region and ejecting the raiders.
Raiders have no such luxury, we have to make up for our crippling lack of manpower by putting it to good use.
I'm not saying Defenders are crap at strategy, its just they have no need to be good at it. Raiders have had to evolve with the times, and coming up with new stratagems is one of the reasons I like to raid.

I think you need to do some revisions on that puppy dog, because the irony is pretty stark.

Today, you are talking about the opposite.

Not to call anyone crap, but those were the words you were throwing around to describe what you are now basically doing.

Evil Lord Sauron wrote: Once the switch to update raiding, mimicking defender liberations from late 2010 early 2011 raiders have seen a marked success.

*bangs head against desk*

Wait, Grand Mufti, are you quoting Tikal?

Grand Mufti Special wrote:From your forum:

The Raiders

The military strike force and essence of the Lone Wolves United. Targets, seizes, and holds foreign regions to expand our empire. Also home to the mysterious Zealot Wolves.

Give a dog a bone, give a dog a bone....

Me thinks you have forgotten who the true Zealots are supposed to be.

Well "specially designed group of troops aimed at invading and destroying regions with founders" didn't have the same ring as "Zealot Wolf". ^_^

Evil Wolf wrote:Wait, are you quoting Tikal?

Are you not Evil Wolf, leader of Lone Wolves United?

I'm quoting what your region has put out there, given that you are the leader.

Since you are the leader you shouldn't be deflecting onto someone else and should have to explain statements that now no longer apply to the raiding/defending world as they were written at the time, but have presently almost exactly flipped as opposites.

So how do you defend your position with this being the case, when your entire rationale now shifts in the favor of the defender side?

But yes, I was quoting her

Well "specially designed group of troops aimed at invading and destroying regions with founders" didn't have the same ring as "Zealot Wolf". ^_^

Well, you are the Zealots then

Actually, I believe that would more make us Region Destroyers than zealots. Less "fanatical and uncompromising in our beliefs" and more "evil".

I should mention that the true name for that interior group is the "Insanity Wolves", and that Zealot Wolves was a name-change that never really caught on. To be honest I think they're both pretty terrible and I am open to suggestions.

Evil Wolf wrote:Actually, I believe that would more make us Region Destroyers than zealots. Less "fanatical and uncompromising in our beliefs" and more "evil".

You can be the big, bad wolf all you want. That's fine with me.

You still haven't explained your now backwards rationale for why raiding is better though.

Evil Wolf wrote:
I should mention that the true name for that interior group is the "Insanity Wolves", and that Zealot Wolves was a name-change that never really caught on. To be honest I think they're both pretty terrible and I am open to suggestions.

The Not So Scary Cuddly Corps would be my submission, or simply The Big Bad Wolves

Grand Mufti Special wrote:You still haven't explained your now backwards rationale for why raiding is better though.

You clearly have never been touched by the holy words of Scardino and his mystical teachings nor read the totally-not-the-Communist-Manifesto writings contained in the Wolfist Manifesto.

Our explanation is far better and more truthful than the Defender go-to justification of "Defending is moral because it is."

I never said that.

I just think it is odd how that manifesto has now reversed from being for raiding to for defending on the merits of its own logic

Clearly the times have changed, but you will always be the evil puppy dog.

Grand Mufti Special wrote:Clearly the times have changed, but you will always be the evil puppy dog.

..and you're only real Defender around anymore. Real Harm.

There's been a marked increase in invader support numbers as well.

A "small" liberation requires 15-20 people (and a failure to show up is considered "embarrassing" - by an opponent who can pull those update numbers only in its very best moments)... that's as large as the largest update operation I did before the birth of UDL.
The largest successful liberation since the introduction of Influence (I think it still is, at least?), Feudal Japan, required months of preparation and had 36 updaters. Those numbers today would hardly be sufficient to liberate a major raid, unless the attempt was made in the first two-three days.

The worst change of all, though, is an ideological one: no invader group bothers anymore with not kicking natives and everyone seems to enjoy casual griefing or threats of griefing whenever possible. >_>

TBR and UIAF managed to bring online 16 and 21 updaters this week. TBR brought 9-10 troops online 3 times this week. And we can do better if we have time to prepare. Those statistics were made with 24 hours notice (the 20-21 troops online).

I can pull thirty updaters online, easy.

But doing it requires so much time that my grades would tank if I did it consistently.


Also this week's updater numbers are a rarity (if they are even true) and you know it.

Mahaj wrote:I can pull thirty updaters online, easy.

Considering that for months your entire contribution to 'pulling' updaters was

>log onto irc
>say "go get people"
>leave and not turn up for update

I'm calling bullshit.

Mahaj wrote:I can pull thirty updaters online, easy. But doing it requires so much time that my grades would tank if I did it consistently.

Based on the frequency you've gathered 30 updaters you must have a 4.0.

Also this week's updater numbers are a rarity (if they are even true) and you know it.

I can assure you that our numbers are truer than you pulling thirty.

Mahaj wrote:

Coraxion wrote:We do not concentrate our time and efforts speaking about morals of our actions, but nearly purely to Practice, tactics etc. relevant to our Activity.

That's because your actions are immoral.

Immoral in what sense?

Mahaj wrote:I can pull thirty updaters online, easy.

But doing it requires so much time that my grades would tank if I did it consistently.


Also this week's updater numbers are a rarity (if they are even true) and you know it.

Heureka. I assume the reason of The Decline of defenderism lies behind your lines here.

It's all about you, you seem thinking. There doesn't happen any practical activities of Defending as long as you're not personally involved to it. That's what I read your comments and arguments. That is also reason we Raiders could consider UDL non-existent now. Natives are already came to that Conclusion. In other words We Raiders won the War against UDL.

There are no UDL named organisation in existence anymore that could pose any kind of resistance.

(Btw. That Horde of Raiders online in Skype caused me lost my temper during aftermath of the raid when we tried research who participated and what...)