Imperialism in GCRs

[The North Polish Union]

That is indeed my point.

I'm not saying the events are so 2012, I'm saying the irrational paranoia that UDL might influence something is so 2012.

Ergo, wouldn't he irrational paranoia that the UIAF might influence something be "so 2008"?

[Nalt]

I'm not saying the events are so 2012, I'm saying the irrational paranoia that UDL might influence something is so 2012.

Ergo, wouldn't he irrational paranoia that the UIAF might influence something be "so 2008"?

Seems to be more common now than anything else, but it may have also been common in 2008, also, I have no clue. I came to NS in the last few days of that year.

[Whiskum]

The UIAF is under unwarranted attack now, but the latest manifestation of this attack is on the basis of events from five years ago, yes.

There were no allegations of widespread GCR interference directed towards TNI in 2008, that I recall, because the gameplay context was entirely different.

However, TNI's support of the Empire in 2008 has now been dredged up as part of an attempt to suggest TNI is currently a threat to GCR sovereignty, in spite of the record of TNI's consistent contribution to GCR security, notably through military operations in The South Pacific and Osiris.

The only other substantive allegation is about Rachel, not involved in TNI, doing something which Mad Jack says Balder's government asked her to do.

Digging up events from half a decade ago and making allegations about people who aren't even involved in TNI is what is called scraping the barrel.

[Solorni]

You'd think people would know my history better by now...

Oh no... a release of information already known... oh noes

[Confidential March 3]

Let it be clear, Onder: We are discussing things that happened in 2008 because imperialists weren't pretending to be GCR sovereigntists in 2008.

It's 2013 now and the imperialists have a new game: pretend to be "good" for GCRs.

You've got to face your old track-record if you're going take on a new image. You helped burn and oppress The East Pacific, destabilize The North Pacific, led an invasion against The Rejected Realms and acted very suspiciously in Balder.

"Statue of Limitations" is not a valid counter-argument.

"Scratching the Bottom of the Barrel" is not a valid counter-argument.

Explain why The Empire was good for The East Pacific, not TNI, The East Pacific.

Explain why The Crimson Order was good for The North Pacific, not TNI, The North Pacific.

Explain why The Rejected Realms Invasion was good for The Rejected Realms, not TNI, The Rejected Realms.

Explain why giving advance notice to Luxembourg of a liberation attempt was good for Balder, not TNI, Balder.

You've talked a lot about the interests of imperialists but not a lot about the interests of feeders you pretend to care about ... there's a lot of blood on your hands since 2008. Explain.

[Solorni]

No idea what Onder has to do with Balder

I was hoping for enlightening stuff. This is just lame and not even logical or coherent. Typical. Am I supposed to treat this seriously or as a joke? Is it supposed to be a joke? That would make a lot more sense and it's funny anyway.

[Cerian Quilor]

Policy in 2008 =/= policy in 2013. TNI is a very differant region than it was in 2008, with, in many places, wholly differant people in the various leadership positions (For example, IIRC, Onder wasn't brought into TNI's government until 2009, and Charles Cerebella had just joined in 2008, Christopher Bishop wasn't even playing NS at the time, and...well, I think NES was there then, so there's that.)

Smart regions change their policies based on the times, and also based on the development of the views of their leaders. TNI did violate GCR sovreignty in 2008. Sure. And? Its 2013 now. I don't think we can say that the current US government is in danger of committing genocide because of what it did to the native Americans in the 1800s? I don't think we can say that the UK is going to go around taking over huge chunks of Africa anymore, or declare itself owner of India, hm? I don't think China is in danger of burying its foreign affairs behind the Ministry of Ritual like it did under the dynasties.

Yes, our counter is that it was 5 years ago. My confusion is why you think 'that it was five years ago' isn't a valid defense.

[Confidential March 3]

Smart regions change their policies based on the times, and also based on the development of the views of their leaders. TNI did violate GCR sovreignty in 2008. Sure. And? Its 2013 now.

And what about in 2014? How can GCRs know to trust you, if you are admitting your policies on GCR sovereignty are set to change whenever your kind feel like it (because apparently being flexible about feeder security is a matter of smart policy?).

Or is that the point: Don't trust us to coup you... get a treaty with us? We call that "intimidation" and it isn't a healthy, mutually respecting beginning to a diplomatic relationship.

One year you're burning TEP, the next you're parading about, telling everyone you're the Guardians of the GCRs.

You know, most people, if they found out their founding fathers had launched an unjustifiable, terrible coup on a feeder like The East Pacific, would write an apology or something... but not imperialists, they'll just tell you to adjust a screw.

Why should TNI be held to account for the actions of... TNI ??

[Durkadurkiranistan II]

For the record, the context of 2008 was that the GCRs were inactive toilets that had shut themselves out from the outside world. Support for coups was much higher; opposition was far lower. One remembers the general lack of condemnations, even from fellow GCR's, when the Crimson Order couped TNP, or the Empire couped TEP.

[Charax]

Had it not been for the imperialist aid, Milograd would still be Delegate of The South Pacific.

For shame, imps. For shame.

[Cormac A Stark]

For the record, the context of 2008 was that the GCRs were inactive toilets that had shut themselves out from the outside world. Support for coups was much higher; opposition was far lower. One remembers the general lack of condemnations, even from fellow GCR's, when the Crimson Order couped TNP, or the Empire couped TEP.

Context doesn't matter to Unibot, and I think we all know that's probably who the author is.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

I thought it was Frak myself, but I suppose he hasn't made a veiled crack at the personal life from anyone in TNI yet, so probably not.

[Drop Your Pants]

Onder clearly admits TNI occupied TRR for 1 update as part of it's war on the FRA, and they acknowledge that to be the case too. There is nothing particularly controversial about this, as you acknowledge and then move on.

I wasn't aware of that Weird since i'm part of the region.

[Solorni]

Sadly, Unibot makes the most sense to me. It would explain everything

[Mahaj]

For the record, the context of 2008 was that the GCRs were inactive toilets that had shut themselves out from the outside world. Support for coups was much higher; opposition was far lower. One remembers the general lack of condemnations, even from fellow GCR's, when the Crimson Order couped TNP, or the Empire couped TEP.

Context doesn't matter to Unibot, and I think we all know that's probably who the author is.

Nah, Uni's post would have been a lot longer.

[Anumia]

This is a rather pathetic attempt at the second shot being fired in this cold war against "Imperialism", I must say...at least AMOM filled his thread with (irrelevant) quotes, (insufficient) evidence, and (nonsensical) rhetoric. It gave me something to which I could properly reply.

To whit: bar the last one, the entire theme of the original post is, "Remember back in 2008?"

Five years - an Age or two ago - before a great number of regions prominent in the game today rose to their current stature, before some of our current GCRs even existed, TNI interfered in a few of the Pacifics. For the record, I personally disapproved of those actions then and said so, but even a grumpy old fellow like me with a fundamental inability to release a grudge for naught but the passage of time finds this almost wholly irrelevant in terms of the geopolitical situation today. Those Pacifics are rather different regions to how they were back then; TNI is quite different to how it was back then. The mere fact that you have been unable to bring up any foul play from this the post-noughties decade speaks to your obsolesence, and your failure to mention even one case of the defence of GCR sovereignty by TNI despite such cases existing speaks to your poorly-executed agenda.

--

So now, which member of the UDL is too cowardly to show their face out from beyond the Mask of Anonymous?

[North East Somerset]

Onder clearly admits TNI occupied TRR for 1 update as part of it's war on the FRA, and they acknowledge that to be the case too. There is nothing particularly controversial about this, as you acknowledge and then move on.

I wasn't aware of that Weird since i'm part of the region.

TNI is at war with FRA, TNI occupied TRR for 1 update, TRR is a member region of the FRA. I'm not asking you to acknowledge anything other than those facts, it's not a complicated matter.

---

As for CM3 alleging all these things from 2008 are relevant, I have already outlined how the political landscape of Nationstates and even TNI's role in it have substantially changed in the intervening period and frankly anyone who isn't aware of the changes since then knows very little about NS history. UDL didn't even exist back then for a start, so it's impossible to know what they would have done. Certainly in much later years than 2008, Mahaj was caught out actively plotting to coup various GCR's, and he isn't the only member of the UDL to have done so.

Now, the reality of the The Empire & The Crimson Order is that TNI played a minor role in these conflicts, being a new region on the international scene. It is thoroughly laughable you criticise TNI for the Crimson Order, when the current Delegate of TWP was the one who couped it! There are dozens more gameplayers who played a role in these coups and you aren't criticising them or alleging they are a menace to GCRdom, despite many of them still being actively embedded in GCR politics. Surely, this proves that this is really all about more Franco-Defenderist smearing of TNI, and is nothing to do with a serious concern about TNI's role in the events of 2008.

[Whiskum]

(For example, IIRC, Onder wasn't brought into TNI's government until 2009

I was brought to become head of intelligence in May 2008, but you are correct in the sense that I was less involved in military operations and diplomacy, as opposed to intelligence and security, until late 2009. That said, I am not saying I would have acted differently then, rather that the game has changed.

Explain why The Empire was good for The East Pacific, not TNI, The East Pacific.

Explain why The Crimson Order was good for The North Pacific, not TNI, The North Pacific.

I had not gone from the LKE to TNI by Westwind's coup and I was uninvolved in the decision to support the Empire, so I can't give a specific explanation.

TNI acted in its own interests in the context of the gameplay circumstances as they then stood, as any region would and others did. Since then, the game's political layout has changed, the GCRs have become much more active, the world has become much more cosmopolitan, TNI has become much more prominent, and as a result of that historical process over five years our relations with the GCRs have grown. Therefore events in 2008 are no indicator of how we would act in 2014 because we are operating in a completely different context and have regularly pursued a policy of supporting GCR security.

Explain why The Rejected Realms Invasion was good for The Rejected Realms, not TNI, The Rejected Realms.

We have never claimed it was good for The Rejected Realms. We claim to be at war with them, why would we want to do something good for them?

The fact is that we are at war with the FRA. As our actions have shown, that does not affect our position in relation to the GCRs more generally.

Explain why giving advance notice to Luxembourg of a liberation attempt was good for Balder, not TNI, Balder.

You would have ask to ask the Government of Balder, because that decision had nothing to do whatsoever with TNI.

there's a lot of blood on your hands since 2008. Explain.

Unless you mean raiding The Rejected Realms for 1 update, there is no GCR blood on our hands since 2008.

[Milograd]

I agree with some of this and it's no secret that imperialists have used an array of rationalizations and deceptions to justify supporting/prolonging coups in the past, but the accusations against Rach are entirely unfair. She has been very loyal to Balder in her time there, and that is deserving of respect, rather than slander.

[Falconias]

Preface: What is with everyone hiding their identity to make these supposedly shocking revelations? Come out of the woodwork and show yourself, this is tabloid journalism...

I'm a little disappointed by the pettiness of this attack. By no means do I consider myself a "friend" of the UIAF, regardless if you consider that comment to be a personal one or one representative of the FRA. However, it doesn't take an imperialist to read the OP here and be bored by it... TRR is a surprise to nobody (yeah, it pissed us off, but they were at war with us). As for the events of 2008, having been around then I can say that TNI was a very different culture and I can forgive. We aren't climbing into bed with the UIAF, we are negotiating with them, and their affiliation with TNI and TNI's dinosaur history merits some consideration but it's not a hindrance to talks 5 years later.

You've painted with brush a few bristles too wide here, Mr. Anonymous.

[Confidential March 3]

TNI acted in its own interests in the context of the gameplay circumstances as they then stood, as any region would and others did. Since then, the game's political layout has changed, the GCRs have become much more active, the world has become much more cosmopolitan, TNI has become much more prominent, and as a result of that historical process over five years our relations with the GCRs have grown. Therefore events in 2008 are no indicator of how we would act in 2014 because we are operating in a completely different context and have regularly pursued a policy of supporting GCR security.

You've proven the point I was making -- all it takes is for the political layouts to change and suddenly it's no longer in TNI's interests to care about GCR security.

Most people would just say, The Empire is bad no matter what the circumstances are... but you're not most people. Your ideals regarding GCR security align currently with most of the public, because it's somewhat in your interests to share those ideals now... but that could change within a year or more, depending on if activity or political loyalties change.

This is a lot different than others who just believe GCR security is good ... those people fought The Empire, they fought The Crimson Order, they fought Sedgistan, Milograd and JAL. But you're not those people, you don't have that moral consistency, so don't try to play that card.

As for CM3 alleging all these things from 2008 are relevant, I have already outlined how the political landscape of Nationstates and even TNI's role in it have substantially changed in the intervening period and frankly anyone who isn't aware of the changes since then knows very little about NS history. UDL didn't even exist back then for a start, so it's impossible to know what they would have done. Certainly in much later years than 2008, Mahaj was caught out actively plotting to coup various GCR's, and he isn't the only member of the UDL to have done so.

Now, the reality of the The Empire & The Crimson Order is that TNI played a minor role in these conflicts, being a new region on the international scene. It is thoroughly laughable you criticise TNI for the Crimson Order, when the current Delegate of TWP was the one who couped it! There are dozens more gameplayers who played a role in these coups and you aren't criticising them or alleging they are a menace to GCRdom, despite many of them still being actively embedded in GCR politics. Surely, this proves that this is really all about more Franco-Defenderist smearing of TNI, and is nothing to do with a serious concern about TNI's role in the events of 2008.

You're really grabbing at straws now to justify The Empire and The Crimson Order.

1. "We didn't play much of a role! We were just little guys then!"

This is not a particularly convincing counter-argument. You provided assistance to The Empire and The Crimson Order. Only someone not well versed in NS History would claim Westwind does not like the occasional coup or moment of extrajudicial chaos -- but someone like yourself, claiming to be such a savior of GCRs, should have to explain themselves.

Furthermore, just because you only helped and did not lead The Empire or The Crimson Order, does not mean you escape moral culpability. Nice try, though.

2. "If UDL had been around, who knows: it might have done the same as us!"

Sure. Let's presume this happened. The question is: So? The Empire and The Crimson Order were still wrong and your regime still supported and provided arms to them.

Nevermind that it's silly to think that UDL would have knowingly helped The Empire or The Crimson Order (we can suggest from FRA's behavior that UDL may have been misled by Biyah in The Empire case, but would have likely intervened against The Crimson Order).

And nevermind that your proposition has been purely made to shift the blame and focus of discussion onto a group, that as you admit, was not even around in 2008.

I am humbled by your assertions that I am Unibot. But you're shifting the terms of the debate from the focus on you to the focus on me -- you've failed to answer for the mistakes of your past and you're trying to save face by slipping about like a fish on a chopping board.

[The North Polish Union]

This is a lot different than others who just believe GCR security is good ... those people fought The Empire, they fought The Crimson Order, they fought Sedgistan, Milograd and JAL. But you're not those people, you don't have that moral consistency, so don't try to play that card.

Supposing that they believe GCR security is bad, and they have maintained their moral consistency throughout?

Doesn't your argument that the UIAF is being inconsistent fall to pieces then?

N.B.
I am not, and have never been, a member of the UIAF and am therefore not well-versed in their attitudes towards GCR security. My posts should not be considered a reflection official UIAF policy toward GCRs.

[Confidential March 3]

Supposing that they believe GCR security is bad, and they have maintained their moral consistency throughout?

Doesn't your argument that the UIAF is being inconsistent fall to pieces then?

Sure, yes. If UIAF had bad intentions in Osiris and TSP (and NPO's Retort suggests so), they are in fact being just as consistent as ever -- which services the essay's point that imperialists cannot be trusted.

However, if UIAF really does believe that GCR security is important now (which they say they do). We have to question the "now". The imperialists have deflected and distanced themselves from their past behavior. They have not confronted their past and they have not shown signs of either regret or contrition.

[Milograd]

Supposing that they believe GCR security is bad, and they have maintained their moral consistency throughout?

Doesn't your argument that the UIAF is being inconsistent fall to pieces then?

Sure, yes. If UIAF had bad intentions in Osiris and TSP (and NPO's Retort suggests so), they are in fact being just as consistent as ever -- which services the essay's point that imperialists cannot be trusted.

However, if UIAF really does believe that GCR security is important now (which they say they do). We have to question the "now". The imperialists have deflected and distanced themselves from their past behavior. They have not confronted their past and they have not shown signs of either regret or contrition.

AMOM's retort never says they had bad intentions in TSP.

Osiris is a totally different story.

[Confidential March 3]

Sure, yes. If UIAF had bad intentions in Osiris and TSP (and NPO's Retort suggests so), they are in fact being just as consistent as ever -- which services the essay's point that imperialists cannot be trusted.

However, if UIAF really does believe that GCR security is important now (which they say they do). We have to question the "now". The imperialists have deflected and distanced themselves from their past behavior. They have not confronted their past and they have not shown signs of either regret or contrition.

AMOM's retort never says they had bad intentions in TSP.

Osiris is a totally different story.

Ah, my mistake. My point still stands, though.