NationStates News Express: News on the Run

[Tim-Opolis]

I have no problem hanging with Tim though. No mistake there.

wuv you too

[Anumia]

If UIAF were supporing Biyah and company you'd be saying the same thing, because you'll take any chance to target UIAF with evil motives.

You're right: if UIAF moved...I would be...suspicious. Because any major foreign deployment...is pretty sketchy.

Fixed it for you

[Ambroscus Koth]

Hanging with Tim was your first mistake.

Nah, that would've been hanging with Cormac.

*snorts*

Just when I thought I missed you from #miniluv

[Brutland and Norden]

It comes from his public statements and his IRC conversations. The former are public record, the latter have been posted in various places, including the TSP Cabinet archive. If I recall correctly, he believed that TSP's democracy was a "sham" because things never really happened without the approval of the elite. He talked about political opportunism and sycophancy. It seems pretty obvious to me that he had become disillusioned with TSP and saw greener pastures elsewhere.

First, I was actually there for Milograd's coup. I had just recently joined TSP. Second, his propaganda had an element of truth to it, but actions speak louder than words.

I am not satisfied with this. I am asking you to point to specific evidence (and I say that in the plural), that will build up support for your hypothesis, instead of giving me that "it's common knowledge/sense anyway" justification. If you can't, then you're statements have no basis.

And oh, I had been in TSP for seven years. I had been there throughout the entire time that you, Milograd, Hileville, Belschaft or Unibot have been in TSP. If there's anyone between you and me who has more right to say "oh it's common knowledge anyway", it isn't you. But I'm not going to do that ~ if I'm going to make an assertion, I'd back it up. Will you?

If you're accusing me of defending Milograd's coup, you couldn't be more wrong.

Your 'analyses' that paints the region as the cause of the coup strikes me as defending and justifying it. So what is your point exactly in doing such things?

[Glen-Rhodes]

I am not satisfied with this. I am asking you to point to specific evidence (and I say that in the plural), that will build up support for your hypothesis, instead of giving me that "it's common knowledge/sense anyway" justification. If you can't, then you're statements have no basis.

You have access to the Cabinet forums, go find it yourself. You have the ability to search the gameplay forums, as well, but here's a link to all his Gameplay posts anyways. This is all public knowledge and I know that you're well aware of most of it, so don't try and pull this card with me.

And oh, I had been in TSP for seven years. I had been there throughout the entire time that you, Milograd, Hileville, Belschaft or Unibot have been in TSP. If there's anyone between you and me who has more right to say "oh it's common knowledge anyway", it isn't you. But I'm not going to do that ~ if I'm going to make an assertion, I'd back it up. Will you?

Yeah, I wasn't having a contest with you. Being in TSP doesn't give anybody a superior ability to read forum posts and construct an understanding of the events and glean Milograd's motivations. Enough of this is public record and we were both there.

Furthermore, the idea that Milograd loved TSP and had so many good friends in TSP doesn't pass the giggle test. He loved it so much and valued his good friendships so much he... destroyed his reputation in TSP and burned bridges with a lot of his friends by performing a coup.

If you're accusing me of defending Milograd's coup, you couldn't be more wrong.

Your 'analyses' that paints the region as the cause of the coup strikes me as defending and justifying it. So what is your point exactly in doing such things?

Oh, please, that's hyperpolitical and anti-intellectual nonsense. Sorry to burst your bubble, but historical analysis isn't going to bias itself just because you find it offensive that somebody believes Milograd wasn't just insane.

[Unibot III]

And oh, I had been in TSP for seven years. I had been there throughout the entire time that you, Milograd, Hileville, Belschaft or Unibot have been in TSP. If there's anyone between you and me who has more right to say "oh it's common knowledge anyway", it isn't you. But I'm not going to do that ~ if I'm going to make an assertion, I'd back it up. Will you?

From what I can see, the "elitism" criticism of The South Pacific became more relevant after the wave after Sedgistan with Hileville, Myself and Belschaft, in addition to Milograd and Topid and others.

The community's culture became more political, Post-Devonitias.

[PrussianEmpire]

Appears to be escalating, Imperialists from UIAF - its the rhetoric of Unibot escalating the tone. We all know where this goes (he and the UDL have been there often enough)

should we call them invaders from UIAF?

Nah, Imperialists imperializing Osi.

[Brutland and Norden]

You have access to the Cabinet forums, go find it yourself. You have the ability to search the gameplay forums, as well, but here's a link to all his Gameplay posts anyways. This is all public knowledge and I know that you're well aware of most of it, so don't try and pull this card with me.

I take it that you do not want to substantially corroborate or support your assertions. Might it be because you don't have the evidence? Other people also have access to all of those. You don't see them rushing to agree with your assessment. In fact, the other observers in this thread argue against your assertion.

I know this isn't NSG, but the Generalite in me says your excuses won't pass muster in a debate thread. You make the assertion, you supply the evidence. I'm not going to find them for you. Granted that this isn't a debate thread, I'll probably stop asking you for evidence because you don't seem to have or want to provide them. I'll just have Unibot supply more news.

Furthermore, the idea that Milograd loved TSP and had so many good friends in TSP doesn't pass the giggle test. He loved it so much and valued his good friendships so much he... destroyed his reputation in TSP and burned bridges with a lot of his friends by performing a coup.

Very funny that you are trying to prove your point by making a connection so absurd. Sarcasm, maybe; non sequitur, absolutely. Not all people are unable to separate their in-game actions from personal relationships.

Your 'analyses' that paints the region as the cause of the coup strikes me as defending and justifying it. So what is your point exactly in doing such things?

Oh, please, that's hyperpolitical and anti-intellectual nonsense. Sorry to burst your bubble, but historical analysis isn't going to bias itself just because you find it offensive that somebody believes Milograd wasn't just insane.

Don't put words in my mouth. And don't blabber nonsensical terms that have no relation to the argument. You're 'analysis' is neither 'historical' (given that you don't have evidence) nor 'unbiased', seeing that it is coming from one of the most biased people I have ever known in this game.

From what I can see, the "elitism" criticism of The South Pacific became more relevant after the wave after Sedgistan with Hileville, Myself and Belschaft, in addition to Milograd and Topid and others.

The community's culture became more political, Post-Devonitias.

To be quite honest, from a non-gameplayer viewpoint, I am longing for TSP to go back to the time when it was the silent, open feeder that is relatively uninvolved in gameplay. (Or might it be that I am getting old, pining for my younger years? ) Hopefully the other people who continuously stir the pot will eventually stop.

And I am going to stop posting in this thread, since I would like to step back from stirring the pot also. I have maps and stuff to do. And Unibot will have news to cover.

[Glen-Rhodes]

I take it that you do not want to substantially corroborate or support your assertions. Might it be because you don't have the evidence?

Or you could just go read it yourself, BN, and stop trying to take cheap shots. His statements are spread throughout NS, and I'm 100% sure you've read nearly all of them. It's no secret that Milograd leveled accusations against TSP's elite (e.g. Hileville), and his entire pretense for the coup was the existence of an "oligarchy." He may have used over-the-top rhetoric, but there's a grain of truth to what he said, and it's not unreasonable to believe he actually agreed with what he was saying.

Furthermore, the idea that Milograd loved TSP and had so many good friends in TSP doesn't pass the giggle test. He loved it so much and valued his good friendships so much he... destroyed his reputation in TSP and burned bridges with a lot of his friends by performing a coup.

Very funny that you are trying to prove your point by making a connection so absurd. Sarcasm, maybe; non sequitur, absolutely. Not all people are unable to separate their in-game actions from personal relationships.

I don't think you understand what I wrote. The connection certainly is absurd, but I'm no the one making it. Milograd loving TSP so much he coups it is an implicit argument being made by those who disagree with my argument that he was disillusioned and didn't care about TSP anymore.

Don't put words in my mouth. And don't blabber nonsensical terms that have no relation to the argument. You're 'analysis' is neither 'historical' (given that you don't have evidence) nor 'unbiased', seeing that it is coming from one of the most biased people I have ever known in this game.

You've accused me of defending Milograd's coup because I dared to suggest that there was a logical reason for it, rather than adhering to the conventional wisdom that Milograd just wanted to watch the world burn. That is anti-intellectualism at its finest. People aren't allowed to question the story established by the Gameplay Elite, and when they do, they're accused of being sympathizers. As a student of political science, I'm very familiar with the tactics.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

I take it that you do not want to substantially corroborate or support your assertions. Might it be because you don't have the evidence?

Or you could just go read it yourself, BN, and stop trying to take cheap shots. His statements are spread throughout NS, and I'm 100% sure you've read nearly all of them. It's no secret that Milograd leveled accusations against TSP's elite (e.g. Hileville), and his entire pretense for the coup was the existence of an "oligarchy." He may have used over-the-top rhetoric, but there's a grain of truth to what he said, and it's not unreasonable to believe he actually agreed with what he was saying.

To the contrary, considering Milograd's continued involvement in oligarchies across NS - NPO and Lazarus are hardly open or democratic regions - I think it is unreasonable, or at least very silly, to believe that his anti-oligarchic rhetoric was anything but propaganda.

I continue to find it shocking how you insist on assuming the best of a convicted criminal and GCR purger, whilst assuming the worst about essentially everyone else in your own region.

[Eluvatar]

You've accused me of defending Milograd's coup because I dared to suggest that there was a logical reason for it, rather than adhering to the conventional wisdom that Milograd just wanted to watch the world burn. That is anti-intellectualism at its finest. People aren't allowed to question the story established by the Gameplay Elite, and when they do, they're accused of being sympathizers. As a student of political science, I'm very familiar with the tactics.

I guess the Gameplay Media Elite is still going strong. It has been asked before, how members of this "Gameplay Elite" can be identified. As far as I recall, the question was left unanswered.

I do not think there is a Gameplay Elite. There are several loose coalitions and/or cliques in Gameplay, none of them universally dominant. The only political view they all appear to adopt is the view that forum destruction is unacceptable and intolerable. Beyond that, this board is a testament to their inability to agree on anything, including the facts.

[Hileville]

Please leave me out of this discussion. There is no reason to continue to discuss the Milograd coup.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[Southern Bellz]

Please leave me out of this discussion. There is no reason to continue to discuss the Milograd coup.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

You don't have a choice, as a member of the TSP elite, every time something isn't perfect with TSP, its your fault.

[Glen-Rhodes]

To the contrary, considering Milograd's continued involvement in oligarchies across NS - NPO and Lazarus are hardly open or democratic regions - I think it is unreasonable, or at least very silly, to believe that his anti-oligarchic rhetoric was anything but propaganda.

No, they aren't, but it seems to me, as an outside viewer, they're far more open to letting him set the agenda and culture of the region. His oligarchy rhetoric wasn't about spreading liberal democracy in GCRs. TSP was and is the more liberal democratic GCR out there. His rhetoric was about power relationships, and going by what he said (and not just by his "propaganda"), Milograd felt there was a large power imbalance.

I've been saying that stuff long before he added communist trappings to it. It's a legitimate complaint reasonable people have. Your own agenda of bringing new people into the fold in TSP already accepts that a power imbalance exists!

I continue to find it shocking how you insist on assuming the best of a convicted criminal and GCR purger, whilst assuming the worst about essentially everyone else in your own region.

More anti-intellectualism. I've explored the motives of Milograd's coup and I've come to a different conclusion than the Gameplay Elite. Because I don't agree that Milograd was simply acting insane -- and thus argue that he can be trusted to act in the interests of Lazarus, if we believe he cares about the region -- I'm "assuming the best" of him and "defending and justifying" his coup.

[Southern Bellz]

GR, please name the agendas that Milograd was trying to pass in TSP that he was prevented from passing?

[Cerian Quilor]

To the contrary, considering Milograd's continued involvement in oligarchies across NS - NPO and Lazarus are hardly open or democratic regions - I think it is unreasonable, or at least very silly, to believe that his anti-oligarchic rhetoric was anything but propaganda.

No, they aren't, but it seems to me, as an outside viewer, they're far more open to letting him set the agenda and culture of the region. His oligarchy rhetoric wasn't about spreading liberal democracy in GCRs. TSP was and is the more liberal democratic GCR out there. His rhetoric was about power relationships, and going by what he said (and not just by his "propaganda"), Milograd felt there was a large power imbalance.

I've been saying that stuff long before he added communist trappings to it. It's a legitimate complaint reasonable people have. Your own agenda of bringing new people into the fold in TSP already accepts that a power imbalance exists!

I continue to find it shocking how you insist on assuming the best of a convicted criminal and GCR purger, whilst assuming the worst about essentially everyone else in your own region.

More anti-intellectualism. I've explored the motives of Milograd's coup and I've come to a different conclusion than the Gameplay Elite. Because I don't agree that Milograd was simply acting insane -- and thus argue that he can be trusted to act in the interests of Lazarus, if we believe he cares about the region -- I'm "assuming the best" of him and "defending and justifying" his coup.

Glen, insofar as a Gameplay Elite exists, you are part of it. Stop acting like you're some plucky outsider.

[Unibot III]

GR, please name the agendas that Milograd was trying to pass in TSP that he was prevented from passing?

Well Milograd did say he was getting frustrated at the region, maybe there were some stuff he wanted to do. I dunno. I'd like to hear from him *shrugs*. I do think TSP has a reputation of burning out contributive members.

Sedge was once a member of TSP (Chief Justice, but I could be wrong) and he burned out with frustration with the government (at least he said something to this effect).

I mean, it's a bit of a stretch to imply a pattern from 2 people when lots of its members don't coup. But most feeders and sinkers's coupers aren't contributive past members of those regions. Maybe there is something there that TSP needs to look at. One argument could be that institutional inertia in TSP is pretty strong -- things don't move very quickly; enacting political change in TSP is a difficult, extremely long process with a few central figures often "vetoing" change. Disillusionment and frustration thus grows.

Anyone in TSP knows that change is slow to happen -- things are often caught in a very angry, aggressive stalemate with discussion in The Assembly. Citizenship restrictions, for example, has been a policy issue for years and will probably never be resolved even though most parties in TSP agree the status quo is not great at all.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

As far as I am aware Sedge hadn't been involved in TSP for at least a year when he couped, and was no longer a citizen or resident. Milo is our only 'domestic' couper, but then we have only had two.

[Unibot III]

As far as I am aware Sedge hadn't been involved in TSP for at least a year when he couped, and was no longer a citizen or resident. Milo is our only 'domestic' couper, but then we have only had two.

Yeah, he didn't domestically coup TSP -- but I recall him complaining about his experience in TSP. Bear in mind, he was a defender up until like, what, six months before couping (by then he was a moderator)? So he couldn't have couped without forgoing his work with the FRA.

[Cerian Quilor]

Unibot, if you want to make an assertion of Milograd's 'disillusionment' with TSP in the face of 'reforms' that he (didn't) want to put into effect, then present some proof. Otherwise, take your toys and go home.

[PrussianEmpire]

Unibot, if you want to make an assertion of Milograd's 'disillusionment' with TSP in the face of 'reforms' that he (didn't) want to put into effect, then present some proof. Otherwise, take your toys and go home.

Have you tried looking at Milos propaganda and statements during the coup? They're all screaming Unibots statement.

[Southern Bellz]

My point is Milograd did not have any major agenda's he was trying to push that were blocked by any other group in TSP. In fact, I can name a specific agenda he was fighting for that passed, delegate election change. And a great council was ran to rapidly implement other ideas he had. Almost everyone with established political history in TSP was trying to help Milograd. It's sort of funny how someone who wasn't in TSP at the time is telling everyone who was politically active in TSP that this simply wasn't the case and Milograd didn't have the ability to enact his agenda. If he really wants to make this claim, I want to hear what agenda was blocked and by who.

I am tired of reading vague claims of the 'TSP Elite' using unnamed veto powers blocking any reforms with zero examples of this happening. A lot of reform has happened during my time in TSP, and it seems to go in rapid fire bursts, then slows down. For example, just the way the delegate was elected was changed significantly multiple times. That doesn't happen in a democracy unwilling to reform. Right now we are discussing judicial reform (which will take awhile, but not because of obstructionist politics).

I am not 100%, but I believe Sedge was Prime Minister (shortly after this Prime Minister and Delegate was merged) and had 2 other FRA members in the cabinet. All of them fell inactive and the only government members presenting ANY contributions to the region at the time was Todd and I.

I don't know why Sedge couped TSP, but if I had to guess it was because I was very vocal critic of the TRR delegate transfer at the time and he saw my low endorsement cap.

[Topid]

Oh come now Bellz, we all remember those screenshots.

[Cerian Quilor]

Unibot, if you want to make an assertion of Milograd's 'disillusionment' with TSP in the face of 'reforms' that he (didn't) want to put into effect, then present some proof. Otherwise, take your toys and go home.

Have you tried looking at Milos propaganda and statements during the coup? They're all screaming Unibots statement.

I was there for every damn second of it (to the determiment of my hw at the time. Oh, how I wish I could quit GP). However, Milograds statements during the coup are not to be taken seriously, especially in light of what he said after - plus, the entire propaganda arguement was built on a series of such absurd premises (Minnowism, anyone?) that Milograd, an accomplished Gameplayer and member of the "Gameplay Elite"™ (and thus knew firsthand how absurd they were) was clearly being facetious.

[PrussianEmpire]

Have you tried looking at Milos propaganda and statements during the coup? They're all screaming Unibots statement.

I was there for every damn second of it (to the determiment of my hw at the time. Oh, how I wish I could quit GP). However, Milograds statements during the coup are not to be taken seriously, especially in light of what he said after - plus, the entire propaganda arguement was built on a series of such absurd premises (Minnowism, anyone?) that Milograd, an accomplished Gameplayer and member of the "Gameplay Elite"™ (and thus knew firsthand how absurd they were) was clearly being facetious.

Just as every lie is has truth in it, every ridiculous statement has a bit of seriousness in it.