The Land of Kings and Emperors Embassy

[Mahaj]

So did Cormac and other key officials want to remove defender influence from Osiris?

I do not believe that they had sufficient wisdom to see the dangers of FRA and UDL influence for Osiris. Rather, UIAF's presence for them was about securing the return of Osiris by enabling negotiations, as the return of Osiris was otherwise entirely unrealistic within a similar time-frame.

The LKE naturally did see the danger of the FRA and the UDL's influence, hence our statement.

Did you tell them about the dangers of FRA and UDL influence before you entered the region?

Also the return was more realistic without the entering of the UIAF, so the presence of the UIAF did Osiris a disservice.

[Solm]

The LKE naturally did see the danger of the FRA and the UDL's influence, hence our statement.

So instead of some nonexistent threat for what Osiris calls "irrelevant" you bring in a very real threat and a very real coup that ends up with Cormac giving up Osirian sovereignty at the benefit of the LKE.

[Feux]

I wonder if sinkers outsourcing their foreign policy is going to become a trend.

I would rather not have that happen and will probably rage if an attempt was made.

[Cerian Quilor]

That's not what anyone said, Mahaj. I'm pretty sure the UDL did all the legwork itself.

@Fratt: If he wanted to remove the FRA/UDL all by his lonesome, he'd have done it himself. He would have hardly needed TNI or the LKE to do that. As Pharoh he could cut off any embassies he wanted, and end ties however he wanted.

If you think 40 was reachable with a man like Durk at the helm, then you have no idea what you are talking about Solm.

With Europeian soldiers and the rise of the SDF, it would be possible.

Southwick, Durk could have banjected far too many too quickly. Unless you assembled somewhere on the order of sixty-seventy soldiers and got them all to move in quickly enough on time and endorse quickly enough (also known as: Never Going To Happen), the liberation at even a 40 point margin was the very definition of a million and one.

@Solm: the UIAF did not 'bring in' a real threat in the form of TDE. Douria handed the region over to Durk and Gatesville all by himself.

[Mahaj]

Not only this, the prolonging of the coup heightened tensions in Osiris, leading to us losing Zaolat and Raven, two incredibly capable people.

[Mahaj]

With Europeian soldiers and the rise of the SDF, it would be possible.

Southwick, Durk could have banjected far too many too quickly. Unless you assembled somewhere on the order of sixty-seventy soldiers and got them all to move in quickly enough on time and endorse quickly enough (also known as: Never Going To Happen), the liberation at even a 40 point margin was the very definition of a million and one.

We tested it. He couldn't have. Next.

@Solm: the UIAF did not 'bring in' a real threat in the form of TDE. Douria handed the region over to Durk and Gatesville all by himself.

But the UIAF prolonged the real threat, whereas it could have been taken care of much quicker had the UIAF not entered the region.

[Southwick]

So did Cormac and other key officials want to remove defender influence from Osiris?

I do not believe that they had sufficient wisdom to see the dangers of FRA and UDL influence for Osiris. Rather, UIAF's presence for them was about securing the return of Osiris by enabling negotiations, as the return of Osiris was otherwise entirely unrealistic within a similar time-frame.

The LKE naturally did see the danger of the FRA and the UDL's influence, hence our statement.

Sufficient wisdom. I think most of NS now has "sufficient wisdom" that the LKE is full of hypocrisy.

[Whiskum]

Not only this, the prolonging of the coup heightened tensions in Osiris, leading to us losing Zaolat and Raven, two incredibly capable people.

On any reasonable analysis, this is not the prolonging of the coup, but the considerable shortening of it.

I do not believe that they had sufficient wisdom to see the dangers of FRA and UDL influence for Osiris. Rather, UIAF's presence for them was about securing the return of Osiris by enabling negotiations, as the return of Osiris was otherwise entirely unrealistic within a similar time-frame.

The LKE naturally did see the danger of the FRA and the UDL's influence, hence our statement.

Sufficient wisdom. I think most of NS now has "sufficient wisdom" that the LKE is full of hypocrisy.

On the contrary, we have served our stated objectives with our every action, as is manifested in the agreement.

[Mahaj]

Not only this, the prolonging of the coup heightened tensions in Osiris, leading to us losing Zaolat and Raven, two incredibly capable people.

On any reasonable analysis, this is not the prolonging of the coup, but the considerable shortening of it.

The UIAF took the numbers out of the range where it was feasible to conduct a military liberation.

That is a definite prolongation.

[Southwick]

Not only this, the prolonging of the coup heightened tensions in Osiris, leading to us losing Zaolat and Raven, two incredibly capable people.

On any reasonable analysis, this is not the prolonging of the coup, but the considerable shortening of it.

Sufficient wisdom. I think most of NS now has "sufficient wisdom" that the LKE is full of hypocrisy.

On the contrary, we have served our stated objectives with our every action, as is manifested in the agreement.

Yes, but you interfered in GCRs for your own gain. When the UDL interfered in GCRs, imperialists were very quick to jump on them. But where is the chorus now?

[Whiskum]

On any reasonable analysis, this is not the prolonging of the coup, but the considerable shortening of it.


On the contrary, we have served our stated objectives with our every action, as is manifested in the agreement.

Yes, but you interfered in GCRs for your own gain. When the UDL interfered in GCRs, imperialists were very quick to jump on them. But where is the chorus now?

We intervened with the consent of the native government's key officials with the objective of ultimately restoring the region to them when it otherwise would not have been possible. Our support to Osiris in this conflict has been most meaningful, even if it does it annoy the UDL and the FRA .

[Frattastan II]

We intervened with the consent of the native government's key officials with the objective of ultimately restoring the region to them

Restoring the region to them under extremely punitive and humiliating conditions. Not bad, but you could've done better.

[Southwick]

Yes, but you interfered in GCRs for your own gain. When the UDL interfered in GCRs, imperialists were very quick to jump on them. But where is the chorus now?

We intervened with the consent of the native government's key officials with the objective of ultimately restoring the region to them when it otherwise would not have been possible. Our support to Osiris in this conflict has been most meaningful, even if it does it annoy the UDL and the FRA .

You helped coup a region. I don't know exactly how you can call that good for the region unless you subscribe to the Todd McCloud theory of activity. Much of the Osiran government was already not defender. If I looked at the situation the way you look at it, I would argue that the imperialist influence in Balder is much worse than the defender influence in Osiris was, but I don't think that either group is bad for either the region.

[Cerian Quilor]

Not only this, the prolonging of the coup heightened tensions in Osiris, leading to us losing Zaolat and Raven, two incredibly capable people.

Both of them hardly needed this to get them to leave

@Mahaj: Yes, sure. Suuuure


Southwick, you have no idea what you were talking about.

[Whiskum]

We intervened with the consent of the native government's key officials with the objective of ultimately restoring the region to them when it otherwise would not have been possible. Our support to Osiris in this conflict has been most meaningful, even if it does it annoy the UDL and the FRA .

You helped coup a region. I don't know exactly how you can call that good for the region unless you subscribe to the Todd McCloud theory of activity. Much of the Osiran government was already not defender. If I looked at the situation the way you look at it, I would argue that the imperialist influence in Balder is much worse than the defender influence in Osiris was, but I don't think that either group is bad for either the region.

The coup occurred well before our intervention.

It is our intervention which has helped restore the region.

Had we not deployed to the region as part of an operation with the consent of the region's Government, then that would not have been possible because our forces being in the region gave us leverage, which we could use to ensure it was restored to the rightful Pharaoh, inter alia.

We see how little the UDL and the FRA value Osiran sovereignty in these responses.

[Frattastan II]

It is a fair objection that your intervention increased Durk's endorsement count enough to prevent any other solution other than punitive peace.
I do believe a liberation would've been possible in absence of UIAF forces.

You simply chose the option that would've been most advantageous to LKE, which shows how little you value Osiran sovereignty (a mere means to an end - increasing LKE influence and reputation).

[Southwick]

You helped coup a region. I don't know exactly how you can call that good for the region unless you subscribe to the Todd McCloud theory of activity. Much of the Osiran government was already not defender. If I looked at the situation the way you look at it, I would argue that the imperialist influence in Balder is much worse than the defender influence in Osiris was, but I don't think that either group is bad for either the region.

The coup occurred well before our intervention.

It is our intervention which has helped restore the region.

Had we not deployed to the region as part of an operation with the consent of the region's Government, then that would not have been possible because our forces being in the region gave us leverage, which we could use to ensure it was restored to the rightful Pharaoh, inter alia.

We see how little the UDL and the FRA value Osiran sovereignty in these responses.

But if, as Mr. Quilor says, a 40 endo liberation would still have been impossible, then why did being in the region give the UIA leverage if they were not truly needed? Please remember I am speaking as a person not as an organization, considering I am not in a leadership role in either organization. I value the right for all regions to have sovereignty, something the imperialist sphere does not. I don't think that your actions, however, helped the situation in Osiris and I also think that they were mostly for your gain.

[Cerian Quilor]

TNI and the LKE hardly apologize for being regions that pragmatically pursue their own interest. That is what all regions are supposed to do, Southwick.

[Mahaj]

TNI and the LKE hardly apologize for being regions that pragmatically pursue their own interest. That is what all regions are supposed to do, Southwick.

But you pursued your own interests to the denigration of Osiran interests.

If TNI and LKE and Cormac cared so much about Osiris, why did TNI and LKE not help out on a liberation?

A liberation could have easily succeeded in that case.

And the current deal that Cormac has signed with Gatesville is not much "freedom".

[Cerian Quilor]

TNI and the LKE hardly apologize for being regions that pragmatically pursue their own interest. That is what all regions are supposed to do, Southwick.

But you pursued your own interests to the denigration of Osiran interests.

If TNI and LKE and Cormac cared so much about Osiris, why did TNI and LKE not help out on a liberation?

A liberation could have easily succeeded in that case.

And the current deal that Cormac has signed with Gatesville is not much "freedom".

Osirian Interests were served quite well by this peace, and your continued and deliberate ignorance of the reality of the situation does not serve you, or the UDL in any way.

Liberations alone do not always solve the problem in a situation like the Osiris Coup. War in the GCRs is very much a matter of politics, negotiation and attrition, which is why the UDL has always been ill suited for it.

[Whiskum]

TNI and the LKE hardly apologize for being regions that pragmatically pursue their own interest. That is what all regions are supposed to do, Southwick.

But you pursued your own interests to the denigration of Osiran interests.

If TNI and LKE and Cormac cared so much about Osiris, why did TNI and LKE not help out on a liberation?

A liberation could have easily succeeded in that case.

And the current deal that Cormac has signed with Gatesville is not much "freedom".

Hardly: we pursued our own interests in a way which guaranteed the eventual return of Osiris, something which was by no means certain.

Our leverage derived from the presence of our military forces, which cross-endorsed and potentially could have switched sides if the situation called for it. Enabling negotiations has been proved far more beneficial to Osiris than a few extra updaters against a massive endorsement gap.

An update military 'liberation' as such was never going to be a practical option for a long time.

Frankly, however, LKE and TNI do indeed benefit from this outcome, so does Osiris.

We support a stable, free and democratic Osiris. We believed a precondition of that is the removal of UDL and FRA influence. We acted accordingly, to pursue our own interest, but in a way that has secured the return of Osiris into freedom. We get different things out of it obviously.

[Southwick]

But you pursued your own interests to the denigration of Osiran interests.

If TNI and LKE and Cormac cared so much about Osiris, why did TNI and LKE not help out on a liberation?

A liberation could have easily succeeded in that case.

And the current deal that Cormac has signed with Gatesville is not much "freedom".

Osirian Interests were served quite well by this peace, and your continued and deliberate ignorance of the reality of the situation does not serve you, or the UDL in any way.

Liberations alone do not always solve the problem in a situation like the Osiris Coup. War in the GCRs is very much a matter of politics, negotiation and attrition, which is why the UDL has always been ill suited for it.

So LKE did their actions for their own benefit, not for Osiris' benefit? Highly unsurprising coming from the imperialist sphere. A liberation would have achieved exactly what has been achieved, getting the region back, except it would have happened quicker and it wouldn't have forced Osiris to sign a degrading peace treaty.

[Mahaj]

But you pursued your own interests to the denigration of Osiran interests.

If TNI and LKE and Cormac cared so much about Osiris, why did TNI and LKE not help out on a liberation?

A liberation could have easily succeeded in that case.

And the current deal that Cormac has signed with Gatesville is not much "freedom".

Osirian Interests were served quite well by this peace, and your continued and deliberate ignorance of the reality of the situation does not serve you, or the UDL in any way.

Liberations alone do not always solve the problem in a situation like the Osiris Coup. War in the GCRs is very much a matter of politics, negotiation and attrition, which is why the UDL has always been ill suited for it.

I do not believe Osiran interests are "let gatesville get off scot free" but that is what is happening.

While war in the GCRs is a matter of politics, it is preferable to let the politics take place after one has retaken the region.

[Mahaj]

But you pursued your own interests to the denigration of Osiran interests.

If TNI and LKE and Cormac cared so much about Osiris, why did TNI and LKE not help out on a liberation?

A liberation could have easily succeeded in that case.

And the current deal that Cormac has signed with Gatesville is not much "freedom".

Hardly: we pursued our own interests in a way which guaranteed the eventual return of Osiris, something which was by no means certain.

Our leverage derived from the presence of our military forces, which cross-endorsed and potentially could have switch sides if the situation called for it.

An update military 'liberation' as such was never going to be a practical option for a long time.

Frankly, however, LKE and TNI do indeed benefit from this outcome, so does Osiris.

We support a stable, free and democratic Osiris. We believed a precondition of that is the removal of UDL and FRA influence. We acted accordingly, to pursue our own interest, but in a way that has secured the return of Osiris into freedom. We get different things out of it obviously.

Indeed.

the LKE and TNi benefited from this.
Osiris is still stuck under a multitude of Gatesvillian demands.

An update military liberation was a practical option with UIAF assisting.

They chose not to, and Osiris suffers.

[Southwick]

But you pursued your own interests to the denigration of Osiran interests.

If TNI and LKE and Cormac cared so much about Osiris, why did TNI and LKE not help out on a liberation?

A liberation could have easily succeeded in that case.

And the current deal that Cormac has signed with Gatesville is not much "freedom".

Hardly: we pursued our own interests in a way which guaranteed the eventual return of Osiris, something which was by no means certain.

Our leverage derived from the presence of our military forces, which cross-endorsed and potentially could have switch sides if the situation called for it.

An update military 'liberation' as such was never going to be a practical option for a long time.

Frankly, however, LKE and TNI do indeed benefit from this outcome, so does Osiris.

We support a stable, free and democratic Osiris. We believed a precondition of that is the removal of UDL and FRA influence. We acted accordingly, to pursue our own interest, but in a way that has secured the return of Osiris into freedom. We get different things out of it obviously.

Osiris would have been returned eventually. You wouldn't have stayed their forever. An initial liberation would have made it happen faster though if TNI and LKE had agreed to work with the coalition that supported the legitimate Osiris government, including some of their allies.

Of course TNLKE benefits from this. Osiris, however, would have benefited more if this had been handled differently.

Out of this, you get a free pass to continue interfering in GCRs, while removing forces that would prevent you from doing so. Well played Mr. Kelkia, well played.