The Land of Kings and Emperors Embassy

[The Silver Sentinel]

Precisely. And even if they did, would they admit to it? They were the first ones to claim ignorance that Bob was running an illegal recruitment script on their behalf and throw him under the bus, yet they still benefited from said recruitment. Seems a little too convenient if you ask me. *waits for massive wall of text*

To be clear, I'm not making any accusations here, it was a genuine question for The LKE since I didn't see the matter addressed in their statement.

I am, and if they are smart they will maintain a policy of ambiguity on it.

[We Are Not the NSA]

To be clear, I'm not making any accusations here, it was a genuine question for The LKE since I didn't see the matter addressed in their statement.

I am, and if they are smart they will maintain a policy of ambiguity on it.

Oh okay, so you're plan is to just randomly start accusing people you are against of doing the latest rulebreaking fad and spread as much mud across as much surface area as possible? Got it.

[Marselesk]

To be clear, I'm not making any accusations here, it was a genuine question for The LKE since I didn't see the matter addressed in their statement.

I am, and if they are smart they will maintain a policy of ambiguity on it.

I feel that you are taking too much joy from these events, which benefit no one. I really hope i am wrong in my assessment, though.

[The Silver Sentinel]

I am, and if they are smart they will maintain a policy of ambiguity on it.

I feel that you are taking too much joy from these events, which benefit no one. I really hope i am wrong in my assessment, though.

I am taking zero joy. I am merely on a quest for the truth is all.

[Onderkelkia]

Further to the above announcement, the LKE has promptly sought information from the leaderships of DEN and The Black Hawks. Both have confirmed that their members did not use "Predator" for triggering any of their occupations.

Uh huh.... Taken on the good word of DEN high command right?

The LKE wants to know whether its forces have been used to reinforce operations which DEN members triggered in a manner contrary to the rules.

Seeking details form DEN High Command is the only source of information we have about DEN's operations. Now we know there is an issue, we would be negligent not to ask them. However, as our statement makes clear, the situation remains under review and the LKE is actively monitoring the matter.

Does it even matter if they used it to trigger for their big occupations?

No, of course it does not reduce the culpability of individuals who used "Predator". No one has suggested that.

We fully condemn all use of rule-breaking scripts.

It matters only in that it means, happily, our reinforcements did not support operations which DEN members triggered using "Predator".

And to bring this back on the topic of LKE, I hope that the LKE is not looking for technicalities to maintain its relationships with regions and members that have wantonly disregarded the rules of the site, knowingly and frequently.

As our statement makes clear, we accept that there is an issue in this respect and our cooperation with these militaries is under review.

The LKE has quite a bit of crossover with TBR/DEN. Are you absolutely sure Predator has never been used in your own -- or the now defunct UIAF's -- raids?

We have absolutely no information suggesting that this is the case.

As regards our crossover with DEN, it consists of two dual citizens currently - neither of them have ever participated in any LKE military operations.

Precisely. And even if they did, would they admit to it? They were the first ones to claim ignorance that Bob was running an illegal recruitment script on their behalf and throw him under the bus, yet they still benefited from said recruitment. Seems a little too convenient if you ask me. *waits for massive wall of text*

We did not "throw Bob Moran under the bus". He betrayed and deceived us.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Does it even matter if they used it to trigger for their big occupations?

No, of course it does not reduce the culpability of individuals who used "Predator". No one has suggested that.
It matters only in that it means, happily, our reinforcements did not support operations which DEN members triggered using "Predator"

The LKE has quite a bit of crossover with TBR/DEN. Are you absolutely sure Predator has never been used in your own -- or the now defunct UIAF's -- raids?

We have absolutely no information suggesting that this is the case.

Um..... Which is the actual official line here? Did you know, or didn't you know? You seem to be sure that you didn't reinforce a DEN raid triggered using Predator, but you don't know if you participated in your own raid that triggered using Predator? My math says a double negative equals minus two.

[Onderkelkia]

I am sorry, but even on rereading them I don't see the slightest contradiction between those statements. The first observes that, if the other assurances provided with us by DEN and TBH leaders are correct, it means that our forces did not reinforce any of their operations where "Predator" was used. The second confirms that we have no information suggesting that "Predator" was used in any of our operations. Those statements are entirely consistent.

Insofar as the first of the statements you quote is concerned, concerning reinforcements to DEN missions, it perhaps might have been better rendered by noting that it depends on whether the assurances provided to us are true. However, you will see I addressed that very point in the first part of that post.

When it comes to our knowledge of the "Predator" tool, if you're asking about that, I didn't know about its existence until this controversy arose.

Your presence in this thread is nothing to do with "a quest for the truth" and everything to do with baseless muck-raking.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Your presence in this thread is nothing to do with "a quest for the truth" and everything to do with baseless muck-raking.

You are the one trying make public denials instead of just biting your tongue and staying silent on the matter. As long as organizations continue to try and distance themselves in an effort to cover their own asses before we even have an official judgment on the matter, it looks like they have something to hide, and I am going to do everything I can to find out what that is.The search for the truth is often a perilous journey, and you are just making that journey monumentally easier at the moment.

[The LKE Embassy]

The Land of Kings and Emperors

Statement on the Osiris Coup d'état, Tuesday 19th April 2016

The Land of Kings and Emperors was proud to play a pivotal role in defeating the summer 2013 coup d'état in Osiris. Since that event, we have supported the security and freedom in Osiris as close friends of the region, partnering with the Osiris Fraternal Order since its very foundation. On 28th March 2014, we signed the Treaty of Maxonberg to formalize this partnership and cement the ties between our regions. In doing so, we pledged to provide any possible assistance in the event of an attack against the Osiris Fraternal Order, internal or external. The LKE upholds its treaties and will not compromise the guarantees that come from forming an alliance with our region. When the LKE enters into an alliance, we mean it with the same ferocity with which we declare war.

We therefore unequivocally condemn the coup against the Osiris Fraternal Order perpetrated last night by Tim Stark through his control of the delegacy and Cormac Stark by proclaiming himself pharaoh. Despite their pretence to represent the Osiris Fraternal Order, Tim Stark and Cormac Stark have betrayed its laws, its institutions and its people. In doing so, their motivations are anything but fraternal. They are not being forced into action because of a higher, noble purpose. Instead, this treachery is a brazen response to Cormac’s defeat in an internal election against The Almighty Jesus Whale. When the Deshret of Osiris was presented with the option of reversing that election through a vote to remove The Almighty Jesus Whale, the people of Osiris overwhelmingly declined to take it. Rather than respect the democratic will of the region, Tim Stark decided to collude with his friend Cormac Stark towards overthrowing the legal government of the Osiris Fraternal Order. In doing so, he betrayed the trust placed in him when he was elected Pharaoh.

The LKE therefore extends full support and recognition to The Almighty Jesus Whale in their capacity as the legitimate Pharaoh of Osiris. Our full military and diplomatic resources will be available to oppose the coup. Furthermore, we call on all other allies of Osiris to join us in expressing support for the legitimate Pharaoh and opposing this coup d'état.

Few would have expected different behaviour from Cormac Stark. He has an extensive record of betraying those who trust him. He was even previously convicted of treason against the Osiris Fraternal Order. Many will be disappointed in Tim Stark. Yet the LKE has long feared that the incumbent Minister of Intelligence of the Founderless Regions Alliance might well act in this way. We have no doubt that, even though he realises that circumstances prevent such a shift in the near future, Tim Stark would prefer to see an Osiris that would disavow the raider identity that has been integral to the Osiris Fraternal Order since its foundation; and an Osiris that would be more closely aligned to the defender world in the long-run. The FRA should be ashamed of the actions of its chief intelligence operative.

[Cormactopia II]

And nothing of value was lost that day.

[Onderkelkia]

And nothing of value was lost that day.

[2016-04-18 10:20:36 PM] Tim Stark: I wager you'll be receiving a lot of word from a lot of people on the situation in Osiris, and I figure I should be as frank with you about it as possible. I like Osiris in its current state, a sovereign Imperialist region with a great community and great culture. Given the concerns of Jesus Whale's potential coup, which we held significant belief would happen, I'm taking the action that I think will best preserve the Osiris Fraternal Order ,a regime I think the Imperialist sphere views as a rather beneficial political entity rather than risking it with yet another coup by someone who used to have ties to Gatesville.
[2016-04-18 10:20:58 PM] Tim Stark: I'd of course appreciate it if the Land of Kings and Emperors were able to back our preservation efforts, but I can understand why you wouldn't. At the very least, simply sitting it out wouldn't be bad.

[Cormactopia II]

And yet:

And nothing of value was lost that day.

[Onderkelkia]

And yet:

And nothing of value was lost that day.

Is that your new slogan? A better one would be "It's a different story every day!"

[Elegarth]

Those answers do not give you credit, Cormac, you are usually very good with words, use them. No?

[Cormactopia II]

Those answers do not give you credit, Cormac, you are usually very good with words, use them. No?

I'm a little too busy to dignify severance of relations by a fair weather "ally," not even to mention the silly dragging of their FRA war into it, with more words than I have already used.

The Osiris Fraternal Order was disappointed to see our embassy with the West Pacific, Lazarus, even The North Pacific close. Who could be disappointed to see relations with The LKE terminated? In the long run, we will be better off without them using their treaty as leverage to try to influence our internal policy, and when this conflict ends with a decisive victory by the Osiris Fraternal Order and reunification of most of our community, The LKE will be on the outside looking in. There will not be a second treaty for "allies" who choose a document and a security threat over the best interests of our community.

[Elegarth]

Fair enough, and understood.

[The Almighty Jesus Whale]

On behalf of the Osiris Fraternal Order, I would like to thank our allies of the LKE for their support in our time of need. We will not forget.

[Evil Wolf]

Many will be disappointed in Tim Stark. Yet the LKE has long feared that the incumbent Minister of Intelligence of the Founderless Regions Alliance might well act in this way. We have no doubt that, even though he realises that circumstances prevent such a shift in the near future, Tim Stark would prefer to see an Osiris that would disavow the raider identity that has been integral to the Osiris Fraternal Order since its foundation; and an Osiris that would be more closely aligned to the defender world in the long-run. The FRA should be ashamed of the actions of its chief intelligence operative.

You know, I have been wondering, is this actually a Defender coup or is LKE just playing Tim's FRA position up for propaganda purposes.

Cormac, want to chime in on that?

[Tim Stark]

Many will be disappointed in Tim Stark. Yet the LKE has long feared that the incumbent Minister of Intelligence of the Founderless Regions Alliance might well act in this way. We have no doubt that, even though he realises that circumstances prevent such a shift in the near future, Tim Stark would prefer to see an Osiris that would disavow the raider identity that has been integral to the Osiris Fraternal Order since its foundation; and an Osiris that would be more closely aligned to the defender world in the long-run. The FRA should be ashamed of the actions of its chief intelligence operative.

You know, I have been wondering, is this actually a Defender coup or is LKE just playing Tim's FRA position up for propaganda purposes.

Cormac, want to chime in on that?

I'll chime in happily instead.

The LKE is completely playing up my FRA position. If I had wanted to do a Defender Coup of Osiris, I would have done it at the end of my second term, a point during which I was serving as the FRA Arch-Chancellor while also having enough Regional Influence to wipe out my Vizier, every single Guardian, plus most of the Osiris middle class. While I do appreciate their fearmongering, as it makes me warm and fuzzy that I'm relevant enough to get an Onderkelkian essay, if I had wanted to execute a Defender Coup, I would have already.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'll add my two cents-

I'm not going to make any public judgement on who's right or wrong, but everything I've seen offsite from the "couping" party, all of whom you all likely know I consider friends (along with many on the other side), has zero indication that this is any kind of a selfish and sore action, and especially not a defender-motivated one. What I see is the two active OFO founders, the most recent past delegate, and the obviously deeply involved syl taking an action they felt was necessary to head off worse things from occurring in Osiris. I don't presume to know enough about the situation to claim it was entirely justified or for that matter not so. It is clear their actions were in violation of the law, and that your treaty requires you to back whomever you see as the legitimate OFO. I don't think anyone is objecting either of those facts. But to say this is merely a defender coup, or Cormac being a sore loser, is framing this as something it's not. What it is Kay or may not be right, nothin I've seen frames is as either of those.

As a hypothetical, neither of those claims would have any ground had, say, Koth been delegate in this party. But as we all know both he and syl are WA banned.

[Evil Wolf]

I'll chime in happily instead.

The LKE is completely playing up my FRA position. If I had wanted to do a Defender Coup of Osiris, I would have done it at the end of my second term, a point during which I was serving as the FRA Arch-Chancellor while also having enough Regional Influence to wipe out my Vizier, every single Guardian, plus most of the Osiris middle class. While I do appreciate their fearmongering, as it makes me warm and fuzzy that I'm relevant enough to get an Onderkelkian essay, if I had wanted to execute a Defender Coup, I would have already.

Alright then, there you have it.

I'd very kindly ask The Land of Kings and Emperors not to deceptively frame this as a "defender coup", cause I can totally see people running around trying to rally "Raider Unity" to support LKE's position.

This is a political matter, not a Raider/Defender affair.

[Cormactopia II]

You know, I have been wondering, is this actually a Defender coup or is LKE just playing Tim's FRA position up for propaganda purposes.

Cormac, want to chime in on that?

I know Tim answered this already, and I appreciate Souls throwing in his comments as well, but I do want to address it: There is absolutely no intention of turning the Osiris Fraternal Order defender. It has been raider for more than two years, it was Koth and I (along with Venico, of course, who is now retired) who pushed for that alignment, and Tim has done absolutely nothing to try to change that during his three terms as Pharaoh. In fact, the Legion was in one of its most active periods during his first two terms under Festavo's management as Scribe of War.

The LKE's inclusion of Tim's role in the FRA in their statement is frankly ridiculous and is just par for the course with Onder's obsession with these pointless wars. Frankly, Osiris is better off no longer shackled to that nonsense, but we are still committed to the OFO's raider legacy.

Alright then, there you have it.

I'd very kindly ask The Land of Kings and Emperors not to deceptively frame this as a "defender coup", cause I can totally see people running around trying to rally "Raider Unity" to support LKE's position.

This is a political matter, not a Raider/Defender affair.

Thank you. I echo that sentiment. The LKE should not seek to divide raiders from each other.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'll chime in happily instead.

The LKE is completely playing up my FRA position. If I had wanted to do a Defender Coup of Osiris, I would have done it at the end of my second term, a point during which I was serving as the FRA Arch-Chancellor while also having enough Regional Influence to wipe out my Vizier, every single Guardian, plus most of the Osiris middle class. While I do appreciate their fearmongering, as it makes me warm and fuzzy that I'm relevant enough to get an Onderkelkian essay, if I had wanted to execute a Defender Coup, I would have already.

Alright then, there you have it.

I'd very kindly ask The Land of Kings and Emperors not to deceptively frame this as a "defender coup", cause I can totally see people running around trying to rally "Raider Unity" to support LKE's position.

This is a political matter, not a Raider/Defender affair.

I agree with that. I understand fully that LKE is required by treaty to intervene, but to many of the rest of us, this is being seen as an internal political mess they can work out without raiding sticking it's nose in. I have no suspicion that Koth and Syl have suddenly switched sides and decided to help hand Osiris over to defenders. There's just as many defenders on the other side, for that matter.

[Cormactopia II]

There's just as many defenders on the other side, for that matter.

Probably more, actually. I wonder how The LKE feels about throwing in with Funkadelia, The Silver Sentinel, et al. I'm sure it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Sort of undermines their claim that their wars against the FRA and the UDL, and their animosity toward Lazarus, are so very important to them, doesn't it?

[Saq]

Uh....yeah. If for whatever reason Osiris is suddenly taking a turn for the defender, I'll absolutely take up arms against it, but it isn't. Please stop fearmongering. I wouldn't put my name on a defender regime after all I've done for the region.

-Koth