NationStates

This was not included in the original statement because we (the Cabinet) thought it would be obvious. However, for clarity:

All members of the Transitional Government of The South Pacific pledge that new elections will be held following the ratification of a new Charter, at which point all Cabinet members will need to seek reelection to continue in their positions.

Also bans etc. can be overturned in line with the new Charter once the transition is complete.

SIPJENKINS wrote:

Pacific Sopo wrote:Also bans etc. can be overturned in line with the new Charter once the transition is complete.

Translation: Those who get on their knees and beg can come back in once the charter that Hileville approves of is passed.

Simmer down. If you want to get emotional take it elsewhere.

SIPJENKINS wrote:

Lord Ravenclaw wrote:
Simmer down. If you want to get emotional take it elsewhere.

Do I look like a bowl of hot soup?

You look like a concerned resident who is rightfully upset and angry at something that has happened in your home. It's okay to be angry, I've been through it before and a lot of people who will comment in this thread will have as well.

But you need to stay calm. If you don't, and you do get too personal with your comments you risk being warned by the Moderators for flaming or otherwise. Let's avoid that, as there is no reason why we can't be civil and mature in how we approach this.

SIPJENKINS wrote:

Lord Ravenclaw wrote:
You look like a concerned resident who is rightfully upset and angry at something that has happened in your home. It's okay to be angry, I've been through it before and a lot of people who will comment in this thread will have as well.

But you need to stay calm. If you don't, and you do get too personal with your comments you risk being warned by the Moderators for flaming or otherwise. Let's avoid that, as there is no reason why we can't be civil and mature in how we approach this.

With all due respect sir and/or madam, I don't think I have been even remotely disrespectful, but I will keep your advice in mind.

Thank you.

My name is Eagleswing. Since the Milograd coup of 2013 I have been involved with The South Pacific following my service under New Southern Command to help liberate the region. I forfeited citizenship TSP following troublesome and horribly stressful events when I was Minister of Foreign Affairs for TSP in early 2015. I returned as a citizen in December. Through all this, I remained, with perhaps a brief gap, a resident of The South Pacific.

This move has saw me lose my citizenship until I swear their new oath. An oath, I cannot morally take given my position as Delegate of The North Pacific, and as the person who co-wrote the current version of the treaty in-force between The South Pacific and The North Pacific, the Aurora Alliance.

I'd like to say some very strong things. I am annoyed, if not infuriated at this move. I also partly understand some of the motivations behind it, as I was part of the coup which saw the Osiris Fraternal Order become the legal government for Osiris, and I served as its first elected delegate following that as The Imperial Crown.

But, who is to say that my feelings are the right one? I'm not a WA Member in TSP and haven't been for nearly a year, of which that was a brief period.

I am Delegate of The North Pacific, and it appears I must speak with our Regional Assembly and decide how we proceed. I do not know what path is the right one.

Raven, I understand that what has happened has put you and many others in a difficult position, and I appreciate that nonetheless you are looking at the situation from all angles and giving it due consideration. I hope others will do the same.

A bit late on the responses, I had better things to do.

Cormac Stark wrote:Why are you so hostile to TEP? What have they done that has prompted this latest asinine behavior from you? And most importantly, why does Albion keep putting you in high positions so when you antagonize people and regions for something that has nothing to do with you or Albion, it negatively reflects not only on you, but on Albion?

Thank you for this. I and others found its hypocrisy thoroughly amusing.

I am also not in any government positions anywhere. I'm an (offsite) forum administrator. I do admin requests. Woop

It's such an expected thing from you at this point. You always try to play people's words and opinions against whatever region or group they might be in. Some perverse attempt to guilt trip them or something? To use them to attack their region to make them feel bad, or to make their region respond? Idk, it's a politician's trick, don't much care for it.

Xoriet wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, I must not have phrased that clearly enough. TEP's government kindly requests that you mind your own business on issues involving TEP that have absolutely nothing to do with you or any region you are in. As much as we couldn't care less about your conspiracy-theorist level factual inaccuracies ourselves, there is no shortage of people who actually believe that sort of rhetoric and we'd prefer that they don't believe anything you say on issues you have nothing to do with and know nothing about, really.

I must not have phrased that clearly enough. I'm perfectly entitled, as much as any other member of this site, to express an opinion on TEP, and don't much care for TEP's preference that I not do that.

Factual inaccuracies? I said "was rather suspiciously close to TEP's government". As uncomfortable as that might make you feel, the involvement of several members of your government makes it "suspiciously close to TEP's government".

You know, all I really did was make an offhand comment which nobody pursued, including myself. You folks were the ones who made this into a thing here. So defensive, and apparently so very desperate to sweep any notion of brave toaster under the rug.

...

But on to recent developments! It seems "Nationstates' oldest democracy" has come crumbling down.

"This is not a coup."

Also lol @ at saying Kris or I were unwilling to work with the Cabinet. Tsu literally talked to Hileville yesterday, reaching a compromise on moving back. Hileville said he'd go back to the Cabinet with it. I'm guessing he had already made his decision to coup. The only people who have been unwilling to work with anybody else are Hileville and the Cabinet (Imki, Scylla, Sam, Siberian, and Sopo). They didn't want to work with the Assembly. The refused to acknowledge the court. And all along the way, they've had foreigners supporting their cause.

Turns out when you have a group of players willing to break the laws of your region to get what they want, you can't compromise with them. It's been pretty clear from the start that Hileville coup'd the forums as was going to have to coup the region, because he knew the actual community would not support his power hungry attitude.

I wonder if TNP is still in there, you know, "preventing escalation." I don't envy Raven right now.

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Zadiner wrote:But when it's done in the way your government has done it, it is very wrong.
I might have supported a change in TSP if it wasn't secretive and was handled in a different way, by different people.

Because no one at all saw this coming, or who would be involved. Yep.

Kazmr wrote:We want all our friends to join us in propping up our new dictatorship!

This is ironic coming from someone whose primary region for a while (and many still is), Lazarus was established via coups.

---

Personally, I look at the success of the OFO after they removed Biyah and others and see the same success potential in TSP. For a long while now, TSP has been seen as the most unstable of the GCRs despite the fact that Lazarus has had more coups in the recent past. That does not bode well. Personally, I feel that it is because people such as Glen-Rhodes have essentially admitted to not being in TSP for TSP but rather to manipulate its politics to his own purposes. When your core members who are the pillars of your region are not there for it, this leads to a rather weak base.

What TSP needs, in my opinion and has needed for a while are core members who are there for the region, are quality players and who are generally universally respected within the region. If there is no respect for the institutions such as the adminship, it becomes difficult to build a healthy democracy.

Consular wrote:-snip-

Well, given the years of chaos TSP has endured and possibly will endure, I think we can put OBT to bed. It probably wouldn't have made TSP worse, even if it was limited to just talk. I do hope TSP comes outta this a better region, though.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled TSP coverage.

Kazmr wrote:So is this still "not a coup"? Because holy shit, removing your political opponents with no democratic basis, and expelling your justice system because you disagree with their ruling is, well, exactly that... Hopefully any of the other regions still supporting Hile (if there are any) get out of there fast and realize that the coup we could all see coming was just made official.

It's ludicrous that you of all people would be saying this, given how the People's Republic of Lazarus -- which also led to the current regime, which is its legal successor, as you've repeatedly insisted -- came into existence. We've both agreed in the past that drastic action may be necessary in Feeders and Sinkers to restore stability and peace to the community. You've hypocritically abandoned that argument now that it no longer suits you. I wonder why? Could it be the treaty with Lazarus that Glen-Rhodes pushed through as part of his project to manipulate TSP for foreign interests?

Glen-Rhodes wrote:Also lol @ at saying Kris or I were unwilling to work with the Cabinet. Tsu literally talked to Hileville yesterday, reaching a compromise on moving back. Hileville said he'd go back to the Cabinet with it. I'm guessing he had already made his decision to coup. The only people who have been unwilling to work with anybody else are Hileville and the Cabinet (Imki, Scylla, Sam, Siberian, and Sopo). They didn't want to work with the Assembly. The refused to acknowledge the court. And all along the way, they've had foreigners supporting their cause.

Did anyone notice that? Glen-Rhodes says he and Kris were willing to work with the Cabinet, and then says Tsu talked to Hileville yesterday. Unless Tsu is also Glen or Kris -- hint: he isn't -- then this only demonstrates that Tsu was willing to work with the Cabinet.

I am laughing at your complaints about "foreigners." We'll soon see how the ratio of natives to foreigners supporting you versus those supporting the Transitional Government works out, I'm sure.

Glen-Rhodes wrote:Turns out when you have a group of players willing to break the laws of your region to get what they want, you can't compromise with them. It's been pretty clear from the start that Hileville coup'd the forums as was going to have to coup the region, because he knew the actual community would not support his power hungry attitude.

Who in "the actual community" -- what does that even mean, your fellow true believers and no one else? -- has been deprived of the opportunity to express themselves and participate in the Convention to create a new government? Only you and Kringalia have been exiled over the long term, with Farengeto temporarily removed until stability is ensured. Unless you and Kringalia constitute "the actual community," then the community isn't being harmed by this. All are invited and encouraged to participate in the Convention. You're not welcome because, as you've admitted on this very forum, TSP's community didn't mean anything more to you than a group for you to manipulate for foreign interests.

Glen-Rhodes wrote:I wonder if TNP is still in there, you know, "preventing escalation." I don't envy Raven right now.

Even in exile, you take swipes at TSP's allies and try to sow division. The only "allies" of TSP you have ever respected are those who share your foreign, imperialist interests. This sentence in your post, more than any other, demonstrates why you had to go and why TSP is better off without you. Someone had to do something about your constant, destructive manipulation, which was designed only to divide and conquer rather than unite and govern.

Just to respond to the two personal attacks:

to Icecream: Every GCR has a history of coups. By extension every GCR resident is in the same position as me.

To my best frenemy Cormac: NES and others in the PRL are a lot more like The situation in Osiris, where the individuals ultimately removed were more interested in simply keeping the region inactive or subservient. In this case, Glen and Kris in TSP, on the otger hand, actually worked to build up the region, but had a different vision than the cabal currently in power. Stuff like the treaty between Laz and TSP was not at all an attempt to manipulate TSP in some malicious way, as it has been so often characterized. Glen's view was simply that the future of TSP would be more positive with defender regions. He was elected as foreign minister multiple times and never hid that view. For people like you (at the moment) and others who are against defenderdom, he is wrong, and any such views are so commonly portrayed as "against the regions interests" by you lot. This coup is all about politics, its a power play pure and simple.

I personally find it interesting to see you telling people on the RMB who are against this move to work at the convention for change. When those who initiated the convention have already demonstrated that they are willing to ban people to peotect their vision for the region, making such a move naive at best.

Doesn't contribute to the discussion at hand, but I so predicted this in IRC the second the High Court ruled in favor of Glen.

Kazmr wrote:NES and others in the PRL are a lot more like The situation in Osiris, where the individuals ultimately removed were more interested in simply keeping the region inactive or subservient.

You have no basis whatsoever for ascribing these motivations to the individuals banned in the defender coup of Lazarus.

Please specify what steps each of Griffin, North East Somerset and Cerebella took to keep Lazarus "inactive" or "subservient". Lazarus was less active before the People's Republic of Lazarus than before (although the PRL was hardly very active by its end, compared to some regions), but what did that have to do with anything they did? Why is Griffin responsible rather than any of the other members of the Lazarus Cabinet, the ones who supported the coup?

Griffin and NES never sought to push Lazarus in a pro-imperialist direction, whereas Glen-Rhodes has stated he promoted pro-defender policies in TSP.

Kazmr wrote:to Icecream: Every GCR has a history of coups. By extension every GCR resident is in the same position as me.

Not really. When one looks at Balder for example, it has only had one coup early on its history before it reverted back. Last year it underwent a Lawful reformation. I haven't decided on the exact title.

Kazmr wrote: NES and others in the PRL are a lot more like The situation in Osiris, where the individuals ultimately removed were more interested in simply keeping the region inactive or subservient.

This is absurd, the success rate of independents and imperialists when it comes to region building continues to be far superior to that of defenders. Let us not forget that TRR and Lazarus are by far the most inactive of the sinkers and widely considered to be the "sick men" of the sinkers. Also, let us not forget the fact that Lazarus has had issues with manipulators but these were defenders similar to Glen-Rhodes who cared and continue to care more about controlling regions rather than building them up.

Lazarus to my knowledge still has not apologized for it's gross misconduct although it has paid the price of its poor policies. This can be seen via the NLO coup, delegates accidentally resigning & the continual inactivity.

Kazmr wrote:To my best frenemy Cormac: NES and others in the PRL are a lot more like The situation in Osiris, where the individuals ultimately removed were more interested in simply keeping the region inactive or subservient.

This demonstrates what I will charitably call an, umm, imperfect understanding of the situation that led to dissolution of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris and establishment of the Osiris Fraternal Order -- two separate events, the former with much broader support than the latter.

You can accuse Biyah of many things in relation to Osiris, but you can't accuse him of being inactive or keeping Osiris inactive. That was not the nature of the problem the community had with him, it was more that he was using his positions of power -- specifically, in the days before the OFO, his admin position -- to maintain unelected power, to pursue his own agenda over the community's needs, and to hinder the government every step of the way as it pursued change. Sound familiar? It should, because the exact same sentence could accurately be written about Glen-Rhodes and Kringalia in TSP.

Kazmr wrote:In this case, Glen and Kris in TSP, on the otger hand, actually worked to build up the region, but had a different vision than the cabal currently in power.

You have a curious definition of building up TSP. In his time as Minister of Foreign Affairs, Glen-Rhodes dismantled the diplomatic corps and deprived the "Ministry" of Foreign Affairs -- if you can even call a ministry of one an actual ministry -- of any activity that wasn't undertaken exclusively by him and for his own ends. When he got his hands on SPINN, TSP's newspaper, it stopped producing anything. Much more importantly, Glen-Rhodes and Kringalia have driven many citizens away from TSP, including longtime citizen Brutland and Norden, who acted as lead against Milograd's coup in 2013.

Admittedly, Kringalia's participation in TSP was more substantive, but his vitriol was often even more effective than Glen's in driving people from the region. Neither he nor Glen-Rhodes simply "worked to build up the region." It is far more complicated than that, and in the case of Glen-Rhodes I would argue that he did nothing to build up TSP's community, only to further his interests.

Kazmr wrote:Stuff like the treaty between Laz and TSP was not at all an attempt to manipulate TSP in some malicious way, as it has been so often characterized. Glen's view was simply that the future of TSP would be more positive with defender regions. He was elected as foreign minister multiple times and never hid that view. For people like you (at the moment) and others who are against defenderdom, he is wrong, and any such views are so commonly portrayed as "against the regions interests" by you lot. This coup is all about politics, its a power play pure and simple.

This has nothing to do with "defenderdom" among the people supporting the Transitional Government in TSP, but it's telling that the perpetual R/D conflict is immediately where your mind went. The issue is not that Glen-Rhodes was a defender in TSP, the issue is that he was willing to tear down, drive out, divide and conquer, in order to accomplish his ends -- and that would be an issue whether he had been a defender, a raider, or something in between. Ripping the community apart to pursue the interests of a foreign ideology, and power for one's self, should always be frowned upon.

Kazmr wrote:I personally find it interesting to see you telling people on the RMB who are against this move to work at the convention for change. When those who initiated the convention have already demonstrated that they are willing to ban people to peotect their vision for the region, making such a move naive at best.

Yeah, I guess no one should have participated in the constitutional convention for the Republic of Lazarus either, since you, Harmoneia, Funkadelia, et al., had, during the People's Republic of Lazarus, demonstrated your willingness to ban people to protect your vision for the region.

Again, that you of all people are making arguments like this is stunning and hilarious in its hypocrisy.

I think this can be summed up by Kazmr trying to throw a grenade from his glass house and finding out it was not very effective.

I'll admit, when I saw that it was freakin' Kazmr voicing opposition to this coup, I went 'Hey, wait a minute, that's not right.'
It's like seeing Tony the Tiger voicing opposition to cereal. Just.. what.

Lol what Cormac??

Tsu was talking to Hileville because there was no way Hileville was going to talk to me or Kris. Have you never heard of a negotiation?


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Glen-Rhodes wrote:Lol what Cormac??

Tsu was talking to Hileville because there was no way Hileville was going to talk to me or Kris. Have you never heard of a negotiation?

That doesn't prove that you and Kring were willing to work with him, tbf.
Only that Tsu was.

Except I was fully aware of the negotiations...

Also, the idea that I got rid of the diplomatic corps because I wanted full control over everything is just dumb propaganda. I got rid of it because nobody wanted to do it. Not even Hileville, who was elected pretty much on just getting it back up and running, dissolved the diplomatic corps at the end of his term because he couldn't fine anybody who actually wanted to do the job.

The diplomatic corps are glorified newsletter writers anyways. They never had any role in foreign policy under any MoFA.

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Glen-Rhodes wrote:Also, the idea that I got rid of the diplomatic corps because I wanted full control over everything is just dumb propaganda. I got rid of it because nobody wanted to do it. Not even Hileville, who was elected pretty much on just getting it back up and running, dissolved the diplomatic corps at the end of his term because he couldn't fine anybody who actually wanted to do the job.

The diplomatic corps are glorified newsletter writers anyways. They never had any role in foreign policy under any MoFA.

My point wasn't that you got rid of the diplomatic corps to take power. You already had power over foreign affairs, as the elected Minister. My point was that your supposed contributions to "building up" TSP are really exaggerated. Rather than trying to find ways to make the diplomatic corps work and give people something meaningful and productive to do -- something many regions are capable of doing -- you just eliminated the diplomatic corps and all of its potential activity. It was irrelevant to you, because you had an agenda and worthwhile activity wasn't part of it.

Icecream Princess wrote:

Kazmr wrote:to Icecream: Every GCR has a history of coups. By extension every GCR resident is in the same position as me.

Not really. When one looks at Balder for example, it has only had one coup early on its history before it reverted back. Last year it underwent a Lawful reformation. I haven't decided on the exact title.

Kazmr wrote: NES and others in the PRL are a lot more like The situation in Osiris, where the individuals ultimately removed were more interested in simply keeping the region inactive or subservient.

This is absurd, the success rate of independents and imperialists when it comes to region building continues to be far superior to that of defenders. Let us not forget that TRR and Lazarus are by far the most inactive of the sinkers and widely considered to be the "sick men" of the sinkers. Also, let us not forget the fact that Lazarus has had issues with manipulators but these were defenders similar to Glen-Rhodes who cared and continue to care more about controlling regions rather than building them up.

Lazarus to my knowledge still has not apologized for it's gross misconduct although it has paid the price of its poor policies. This can be seen via the NLO coup, delegates accidentally resigning & the continual inactivity.

Balder is also significantly younger than Lazarus. In the time that Balder has been around, there are only two events in Lazarus that could in some way be called a coup. So yes, the idea that because I'm from Lazarus and therefore that somehow warps my perspective on coups is ridiculous.

As for independents and imperialists, I'm sorry, but thats certainly not true. Balder and Osi might be more active at the moment, but like everywhere, things go in cycles. Not too long ago it was literally the opposite, where TRR and Laz wildly outpaced Balder and Osiris in activity. Sometimes regions are more active, sometimes not. Also, I have literally never heard us called the "sick men", so I'm not really sure how you can claim that thats a wide opinion.

This opinion, though, is what I find to be the MOST toxic thing far and away about independents, and why they never get along with defenders. Anyone voicing a defender viewpoint for a region or simply making friends with defender regions is attacked, slandered, accused of being subservient to outside influences, etc. Essentially, friendliness to defenders is simply not recognized as something which can benefit a region, and thus anyone espousing it is dismissed as dangerous. Thats why someone like GR can be accused of devious scheming when in fact he was open during his entire career that he thought TSP could benefit from making friends with defenders. He never made that a secret, and yet his opponents act like we should all be surprised when he pushes a treaty with a region like Lazarus, as if he somehow tricked us. Meanwhile someone pushing relations with an independent or raider aligned region and its taken without question.

Btw, would you mind letting me know who you are? Its not very fun arguing with an anonymous puppet constantly throwing shade at you. Sounds like Rach?

SouthMac wrote:

Kazmr wrote:To my best frenemy Cormac: NES and others in the PRL are a lot more like The situation in Osiris, where the individuals ultimately removed were more interested in simply keeping the region inactive or subservient.

This demonstrates what I will charitably call an, umm, imperfect understanding of the situation that led to dissolution of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris and establishment of the Osiris Fraternal Order -- two separate events, the former with much broader support than the latter.

You can accuse Biyah of many things in relation to Osiris, but you can't accuse him of being inactive or keeping Osiris inactive. That was not the nature of the problem the community had with him, it was more that he was using his positions of power -- specifically, in the days before the OFO, his admin position -- to maintain unelected power, to pursue his own agenda over the community's needs, and to hinder the government every step of the way as it pursued change. Sound familiar? It should, because the exact same sentence could accurately be written about Glen-Rhodes and Kringalia in TSP.

Notice that I said inactive or subservient, the latter being the case with Biyah.

Kazmr wrote:In this case, Glen and Kris in TSP, on the otger hand, actually worked to build up the region, but had a different vision than the cabal currently in power.

You have a curious definition of building up TSP. In his time as Minister of Foreign Affairs, Glen-Rhodes dismantled the diplomatic corps and deprived the "Ministry" of Foreign Affairs -- if you can even call a ministry of one an actual ministry -- of any activity that wasn't undertaken exclusively by him and for his own ends. When he got his hands on SPINN, TSP's newspaper, it stopped producing anything. Much more importantly, Glen-Rhodes and Kringalia have driven many citizens away from TSP, including longtime citizen Brutland and Norden, who acted as lead against Milograd's coup in 2013.

Admittedly, Kringalia's participation in TSP was more substantive, but his vitriol was often even more effective than Glen's in driving people from the region. Neither he nor Glen-Rhodes simply "worked to build up the region." It is far more complicated than that, and in the case of Glen-Rhodes I would argue that he did nothing to build up TSP's community, only to further his interests.

I personally admired the way Glen conducted his foreign affairs, and honestly, if I'm ever in that position in Lazarus, I will seriously consider following his model. I've never been one for embassy updates, which frankly is the entire function of just about every foreign 'ministry' in NS. In just about all cases, foreign policy is basically a function of the foreign minister and, usually depending on how cabinet members are selected, the delegate.

In TSP's case, I found his approach very rational. He was quite open about what he wanted to accomplish, and was elected several times with those views in the public, meaning that for quite a long time most in TSP agreed with his stance.

Kazmr wrote:Stuff like the treaty between Laz and TSP was not at all an attempt to manipulate TSP in some malicious way, as it has been so often characterized. Glen's view was simply that the future of TSP would be more positive with defender regions. He was elected as foreign minister multiple times and never hid that view. For people like you (at the moment) and others who are against defenderdom, he is wrong, and any such views are so commonly portrayed as "against the regions interests" by you lot. This coup is all about politics, its a power play pure and simple.

This has nothing to do with "defenderdom" among the people supporting the Transitional Government in TSP, but it's telling that the perpetual R/D conflict is immediately where your mind went. The issue is not that Glen-Rhodes was a defender in TSP, the issue is that he was willing to tear down, drive out, divide and conquer, in order to accomplish his ends -- and that would be an issue whether he had been a defender, a raider, or something in between. Ripping the community apart to pursue the interests of a foreign ideology, and power for one's self, should always be frowned upon.

Except there are other people in this thread straight up saying that they think defenders fail at region building, and yes, that is exactly why people holding those views are attacked. In most regions, you can do those exact things as, say, an independent and get excused by most people since its 'in the region's interests'.

And I like how you call it a "foreign ideology", because that gets to the heart of it. He was never secret about his ideology, and got elected while making it publicly known. What you're basically saying is exactly why I made my point about defenderism: to independents or anyone else, it is considered a foreign ideology, so espousing it gets you attacked, and you end up in the situation we have now.

Ridersyl wrote:I'll admit, when I saw that it was freakin' Kazmr voicing opposition to this coup, I went 'Hey, wait a minute, that's not right.'
It's like seeing Tony the Tiger voicing opposition to cereal. Just.. what.

What is that supposed to mean? Like... I'm supposed to be a supporter of coups? Or that I'm not supposed to oppose a flagrant breach of power and the expulsion of people I have long had a positive working relationship with?

As for other points Ive missed or replying more, don't really have time to write anymore because my laptop's battery is almost dead and I'm about to get on a bus for nine hours, so... yeah.

I have zero interest in getting into a prolonged debate with Kazmr over things that are only tangentially related to what is going on in TSP. There's too much good stuff happening in TSP to bother, and everyone should come check it out.