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The Tragedy of Influence, Oligarchs and The South Pacific

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Milograd
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The Tragedy of Influence, Oligarchs and The South Pacific

Postby Milograd » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:10 pm

Greetings;

First and foremost, allow me to describe a few terms that I will be using herein.

  • Proletariat: Minnows and nations that consider TSP to be their home, but are not included in its governance due to their disintrest in participating in an off-site forum. Furthermore, nations that would feel inclined to try to make their voice heard but don't due to the common perception that such is futile thanks to the fact that the oligarchy may dispose of them with ease.
  • Oligarchy / Bourgeoisie: High-influence nations like Fudgetopia who are no longer active but still control the region because they control the means of production.
  • Means of Production: Influence. Influence is the one thing that has kept the South Pacific's government alive, and its lopsided distribution in the South Pacific along with the enforcement of an endorsement cap has left the proletariat virtually voiceless, vulnerable, and forced to conform.
Now, as many people have noticed, a situation has been brewing in the South Pacific for the last twelve hours. People have been questioning my motives, supporting me, attacking me, and arguing that I am a tyrant. I am obviously biased so I cannot refute those claims but I feel compelled to clarify my motivations and objectives.

A few sentiments deserve to be noted here and now:

  • I do not intend to suppress messages on the regional message board.
  • I do not intend to force an endorsement cap during this process.
  • Henceforth, I do not intend to banish additional nations from the region so as long as they are not here in the name of foreign interests.
My goal here is to protest an injustice in my home region and, now that I think about it, it is an injustice that other regions are plagued by as well. Depending on the feedback I receive from the proletariat, our protest may turn into a revolution of thought and education regarding the role of influence and endorsements.

I know that "this sort of affair" is usually expected to entail a tyrannical plot to oppress everyone, but truth be told this will hopefully be a grand opportunity for us to experiment in improving the true representation of the people's will through our government in the South Pacific. I do not believe I will be able to hold the South Pacific for much longer but it is important to note that I am a concerned resident of the region and have been for two years. People have been responding to my actions with the usual "if you wanted change you should have worked the system" argument, but these people seem to forget that I have tried that already. I, like many others before me, could not work against the oligarch's interest in the very system they forged. It has been designed to serve their interests.

What are their interests? That's simple: they are solely interested in maintaining their grasp over TSP.

In my time in TSP I have realized that the desires, goals, and beliefs of new nations are far too often dictated to or suppressed by a pressure to comply with the high-influence oligarchy that has kept the region under their grasp for years now. Nations like Fudgetopia who haven't been active in years can shut down anything that they don't agree with at the snap of their fingers. Appropriately enough, the efforts to remove me from the region and its delegacy entails using her nation to take the delegacy again, even though she doesn't actively play anymore. Now, of course, this statement will be responded to with nonsense about how TSP is democratic, but the people with the most say in TSP are the ones that service the desires of the oligarchs and/or their ideals: other nations know that they won't be given as large a voice unless they visibly conform. I am dedicated to serving the people's cause in TSP and I wish to see the people's will truly represented. I wish to fight against the tool of oppression, influence, which is why I have abolished the tyrannical endorsement cap.

I am not suppressing dissent on the RMB because I am truly interested in hearing the thoughts of the region. I am letting people speak their minds and I am encouraging the region's many nations to get educated about influence and take it back, per say.

Perhaps I am a rare exception, but I find it ironic and disappointing that the region where new nations spawn is dictated to by the wills of the inactive and ancient hordes. They no longer regularly maintain the region. In the beginning, people truly supported the government of the South Pacific, but as time passes and generations fade, we find ourselves at a point where influence is the only thing truly keeping their grasp on the region alive, even though they aren't actively involved or dedicated anymore. The select few nations that use their lopsided influence to maintain their grasp on the region of thousands resort to bringing in outsiders to let them use that influence. They do this because they know they cannot maintain their hold in the region otherwise.

Therefore, I am encouraging the masses to help weaken the effects of influence as a tool for oppression. Balance needs to be brought to it and it needs to happen soon. The South Pacific is similar to another feeder that is oppressed by the lack of balance in influence — the West Pacific — but the difference between our regions is that TSP contorts itself to the will of foreigners while TWP does not. Regardless, the masses of both regions suffer the plight of having a series of oligarchs with a lopsided amount of influence compared to them, and they can never reasonably hope to match their influence levels. They are thus eternally subjected to this tyranny.

Our sister-feeder regions are also subject to the same oligarchies derived by influence. We have recently seen, in the case of The West Pacific, what happens when a Delegate falls out of favour of the established influence clique. Eli (aka Wickedly Evil People), who has the most influence in The West Pacific, quickly took control of the delegacy from Yy4u. Yy4u was more active and dedicated to TWP than Eli had been in years, and yet he was easily deposed because he didn't take the region in the direction the old oligarch desired. Yy4u never had a chance at fighting back.

I am also dismayed that the South Pacific's government has decayed in recent years and it is now a spineless institution that stands for nothing but continuing its existence. It has no ideology other than "democracy". Their idea of "democracy" actually entails nothing more than a few individuals whom are friendly with the oligarchy taking advantage of those that they consider to be lemmings. The region also claims to be independent, but buzzwords like "neutrality" and "independent" have been used to justify inoffensive inaction that will surely help prevent any threats to the region's one true goal — its continued, meaningless existence — from rising up. In my capacity as delegate, I was recently asked to bend over backwards to serve the interests of the United Defenders League "and the South Pacific" by bringing the two back together as allies. The UDL's leadership, as has been shown in the past, does not respect GCR sovereignty. Indeed, I was asked by a servant of the oligarchy to pay lip service to a hostile institution that would help fulfill the government's sole goal of survival in exchange for us forwarding their interests. The government truly does not stand for anything and therefore it has no problem contorting itself to serve the interests of those who will support its continued, tragic existence.

It is almost certain that I will lose the delegacy in the South Pacific soon but, in the end, my disposal from the delegacy will occur with no thanks to the objection of the people. My removal from the delegacy will occur due to the bourgeoisie's firm grasp on influence and their willingness to fellate opportunistic foreign imperialists who wish to use TSP's status and resources as a feeder to further their own agenda. Those foreign imperialists will and already have scurried to support the oligarchy because they know that their endorsements can counter-balance those of the proletariat. When the oligarchy inevitably resumes power, these external influences will be rewarded with even more control and influence over our futures, in return for their assistance in perpetuating an entitled, inactive, and elitist status quo. They are well aware of this and that is what motivates them.

Ultimately, that is the tragedy of the South Pacific, oligarchs, and influence that I protest.

Sincerely,
Milograd

Eternal Comrade of the South Pacific
Last edited by Milograd on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cromarty
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Postby Cromarty » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:11 pm

The only injustice on your 'home region', and really, it's as much your home region now as it is Fraks, i.e. not at all, is the one you are perpetrating against it.
Last edited by Cromarty on Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Tragedy of Influence, Oligarchs and The South Pacific

Postby Drugged Monkeys » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:16 pm

Please hold while I search for a new bullsh*t meter, mine just broke.
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Kanab (Ancient)
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Postby Kanab (Ancient) » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:17 pm

A most excellent speech, comrade Milograd.
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Sandaoguo
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Postby Sandaoguo » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:18 pm

I am a minnow. I am brand new to TSP. Yet you ejected and banned me. I'm not sure how that fits with your purpose, here.

Also, considering you held one of the most powerful positions in TSP, you had the power to make changes. TSP was undergoing a review of its entire governing structure, and you were involved in that in major ways.

So I'm not buying any of this.

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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:20 pm

Cromarty wrote:The only injustice on your 'home region', and really, it's as much your home region now as it is Fraks, i.e. not at all, is the one you are perpetrating against it.

If he calls it his home region then who are we to argue its not? :P
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Cromarty
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Postby Cromarty » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:25 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Cromarty wrote:The only injustice on your 'home region', and really, it's as much your home region now as it is Fraks, i.e. not at all, is the one you are perpetrating against it.

If he calls it his home region then who are we to argue its not? :P

Gameplayers. It's kinda what we do :P
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AS22
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Postby AS22 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:31 pm

As someone who actually fought this fight in TSP, I'm calling BULLSHIT on this entire post.

It is just all bullshit, here we have Milo doing what Milo does... he's a roleplayer.

He never lifted a finger in TSP and was part of the problem, this is some pretend BS he drew up to cover himself, he has no reform and no doctrine and TSP is worse off for his stunt.

Bullshit.
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:37 pm

If you have a problem with Influence, take it up with the mods.

The very fact of an off-site forum effectively insulates and protects the actual government from the vagaries of influence and endorsements. You are, by game mechanics, the delegate of TSP and have all the power.. but by the actual governing system? Not anymore. There is no reason to make the case that high-influence, inactive natives actually run the show, given that it all happens on the forums, which is the proper place to conduct regional governance.
Last edited by Cerian Quilor on Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Milograd
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Postby Milograd » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:38 pm

AS22 wrote:As someone who actually fought this fight in TSP, I'm calling BULLSHIT on this entire post.

It is just all bullshit, here we have Milo doing what Milo does... he's a roleplayer.

He never lifted a finger in TSP and was part of the problem, this is some pretend BS he drew up to cover himself, he has no reform and no doctrine and TSP is worse off for his stunt.

Bullshit.

You are just annoyed because you were too incompetent to do the fight any justice, Anur. This is understandable.
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Southern Bellz
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Postby Southern Bellz » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:00 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:If you have a problem with Influence, take it up with the mods.

The very fact of an off-site forum effectively insulates and protects the actual government from the vagaries of influence and endorsements. You are, by game mechanics, the delegate of TSP and have all the power.. but by the actual governing system? Not anymore. There is no reason to make the case that high-influence, inactive natives actually run the show, given that it all happens on the forums, which is the proper place to conduct regional governance.


Reminder: Milograd was a supporter of changing TSP's in game delegate election system to a forum vote.

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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:04 pm

So he's suddenly changed his mind now?

It just gets better and better.

(I don't claim to know TSP's constitutional history)
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Antariel
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Postby Antariel » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:21 pm

Eloquent rubbish, Milo. Pretty sad that you decided to end it this way. :(
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Rebel-topia
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Rebel-topia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:34 pm

Milo, this is a waist of time. You yourself, as has been mentioned by SB, helped rewrite the very laws/charter which is up for vote. And ejecting natives (me included) who WONT support you, is totally against everything you just said. Quit with the BS and the lies. Aint nobody believing you.
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Brutland and Norden
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Postby Brutland and Norden » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:37 pm

Hello. I am Brutland and Norden. You might remember me from the UN days, or from RPs in the NS forum, or from NSG. I am also a longtime resident of the South Pacific. It is, and remains to this day, my home region. I had been the Delegate last month. I do not play the "Gameplay", so to speak, because I prefer the other aspects of NS.

I an posting because I would like to comment on several of the issues being raised here.

Milograd wrote:Means of Production: Influence. Influence is the one thing that has kept the South Pacific's government alive, and its lopsided distribution in the South Pacific along with the enforcement of an endorsement cap has left the proletariat virtually voiceless, vulnerable, and forced to conform.

Milograd wrote: I wish to fight against the tool of oppression, influence, which is why I have abolished the tyrannical endorsement cap.

This is mildly amusing for me as back then, it was actually Milograd who was eager to eject nations violating the endo cap. During my delegacy, I only ejected one nation for that reason, and even then I fend off his requests to eject nations. Milograd, as soon as he took the office from me, ejected three. Now he is ejecting hundreds, and they're not even in violation of any cap or law. I cannot even count how many TSP natives Milograd has ejected. I can remember some of them because they had been in TSP for some time, even before this event. Uneingeschrankt. Kongaria. AtlanticTradeUnion. Sandaoguo. Saorstat Alba. Kaidee33. They are simply in violation of Milograd's whim, and thus he sees it fit to eject them. They are not foreigners, as Milograd would like to paint them. They are TSPers.

Milograd wrote:My goal here is to protest an injustice in my home region and, now that I think about it, it is an injustice that other regions are plagued by as well. Depending on the feedback I receive from the proletariat, our protest may turn into a revolution of thought and education regarding the role of influence and endorsements.

I know that "this sort of affair" is usually expected to entail a tyrannical plot to oppress everyone, but truth be told this will hopefully be a grand opportunity for us to experiment in improving the true representation of the people's will through our government in the South Pacific. I do not believe I will be able to hold the South Pacific for much longer but it is important to note that I am a concerned resident of the region and have been for two years. People have been responding to my actions with the usual "if you wanted change you should have worked the system" argument, but these people seem to forget that I have tried that already. I, like many others before me, could not work against the oligarch's interest in the very system they forged. It has been designed to serve their interests.

You seem to want to make people forget is that we are TSPers too. We are not some greedy lords hoarding a region for ourselves. If I wanted all the power, you should have seen me run for the delegacy and/or simply take it. Did I? No. I only got the Delegacy last March because you gave it to me. Did I ask for it? No. Did I want it? No. But I took that responsibility out of understanding of your situation back then, and for the sake of TSP.

Like I have told you, and many other people, I am in the South Pacific to defend it against people who would like to take the region for themselves. I am simply a concerned citizen of the South Pacific, and I want to make the region safe and secure. In my seven years in the South Pacific, I treated it like my home. If anyone, invited or uninvited, masquerading or not, would start kicking people out of my house, I am going to rise up to stop the intruder.

The people administering the game are discussing tweaking influence. Perhaps your venue for letting out your rant is on that forum, not unleashing terror and destruction in the South Pacific. Because frankly, what you're doing to the South Pacific will not change the way influence works in this game. If you want to suggest changes to the influence system, take it to the admins of the game.
Last edited by Brutland and Norden on Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rebel-topia
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Postby Rebel-topia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:00 pm

Well said, B&N. Well said, Indeed! :)
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Kringalia
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In Support Of Democratic Rule

Postby Kringalia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:46 pm

THE REPUBLIC OF KRINGALIA

I have been a citizen of TSP for a mere few months, but I have a strong commitment to democratic rule and have since considered this region a home and an alliance where each nation has a voice.
Having even voted for Milograd in the most recent election, I feel deeply let down and believe that the corestone of legitimacy in democratic rule is understanding that having been elected to a position of leadership by no means translates to an authorization to undermine other elected institutions without due process.
Milograd was elected as Delegate, but so were elected to their respective positions other nations and he violated his mandate when he withdrew recognition to the very system under which he came to power.
I thus can do no less than urge all nations in TSP to support the legitimate government in our region and to build a thriving democracy for our future.

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Todd McCloud
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Postby Todd McCloud » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:48 pm

Now wait a minute. There's something to be said about the meat of his speech here. Take out the personal quirks of the current situation in TSP, and you see we have a game-wide problem as it relates to influence. Influence is the lynch pin preventing a lot of what I perceive to be common regional cycles of long periods of stability jolted by short periods of instability. When you stop the short periods of instability, you prevent the "soft restarts" necessary to keep the region dynamic.

In many large regions, there are handfuls of older players who have accumulated a lot of influence (and endorsements) that act as giant stabilizers in regions where thousands of nations may call home. Is this right or fair? If there's a huge change in the region, and one person doesn't like it, and they're active enough, and they have a load of influence, it's very hard to get it done. And most big influence people are all about keeping the status quo unless they themselves perceive something as a positive change. But again, that's one person in a region of thousands.

This is not geared at all to TSP or any region in particular. Heck, you can try to pin this on me if you want since I'm an influence giant in TEP. All I'm saying is I'm a guy who's in that position and even *I* question it. Regions need to change to be successful. That's not to say they need to always make everyone happy or agree with the common topic of the day - people pleasing regions don't usually work well. In a lot of cases, a coup can attract a lot of good in a region. Let's say a region goes through a major event like a coup. There are three types of people will attract:

1. The people bored with the game or their government and want to "stick around" to check out the changes. They'll typically stay a few months
2. The people who get interested early on, but then leave once things settle down. They're typically not as tied down to a region and will stay a little longer. They may "retire" in that region, and will do so when they've got other things going on in their life especially if they no longer care about the goings-on in the region (at least at the time of their retirement).
3. The people who get interested early on, and stay on. Maybe their nation formed in this region. Maybe they were there before the major event. Whatever's the case, they're there to stay.

1 and 2 go away. Leaving 3. And 3 wants to keep things the same, because they remember the bad and how they along with everyone else made it good. But there's a problem. Soon you have 4 and 5 enter the scene. What's 4 and 5? Well....

4. Long after the event, people from other regions come in and want to help out somehow. Maybe it's because they want a new start, or maybe it's because they want to somehow influence the region to a particular region they're from. The motive is irrelevant for this argument.
5. Natives who came after the coup and legitimately want to make an impact in their own region and make a splash in gameplay.

I'm not going to argue about how hard it may be for 5 to really get involved and up to speed in gameplay. That's debatable, and really I don't think people need to be immersed in gameplay to "get it" (time and time again I've been surprised by natives in my own region. Some of the smartest people in the game are natives from TEP, IMO). Instead, this is more about years after a major event like a coup. 1 and 2 have left the region. This leaves a small population of 3 with 4 and 5. Problem? Well, it depends. If 3 is more receptive to change and lets 4 and 5 do what they'd like, then there's probably not a problem. If 3 prevents 4 and 5 from making changes, however, that can be an issue.

But my region's receptive to change! That may be, and kudos to your region. But let me ask you, if you have a few reliable 3's, doesn't that act as a 'safety blanket', perhaps? Especially if they have a whole lot of influence? Doesn't that make things less pressing and less exciting? Like, 'well, we'll always have him or her to make sure things are alright'? And doesn't that stifle growth if they're all down with keeping the status quo, especially if 4 and 5 don't like the status quo? So really, when one looks at gameplay alone, 3's can really make fast, drastic changes if they want to. They have the high endorsements, they have the high influence. They may or may not be in a high governmental position in the region, or an admin even. Again, this is not an attack on *anyone* who would be a 3. Heck, some do it gracefully. This is more of an attack on the mechanics of gameplay itself. Something that allows things like this to happen. If a region has a lot of 4 and 5's (let's say 20 active ones) and 2-3 3's, what can it do? Think about it. What can they do? When you add influence to the equation, it severely restricts their options.

Influence is, in my opinion, a major preventer of change. Be it a transitional change, like regime changes, or a sudden change, like a coup. Should influence go away for good? Well, no. There should be something to be said about people who devote a lot of time and stay in a region. I believe it should be reduced. Because just as regions are supposed to change, the influence bigwigs should be able to change as well.

Well, anyway, just a roundabout way of thinking aloud I guess. It's interesting to think about these things. So I get where Milo is coming from, but I think this is more of a product of the game mechanic.
Last edited by Todd McCloud on Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rostovyarsk
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Postby Rostovyarsk » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:53 pm

Glorious Speech! Our Dear Leader is Great Delegate!
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Feux
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Postby Feux » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:01 pm

Good, Todd typed out what I was thinking but clearly and way more well worded than what I could put together in my head at the moment.
Last edited by Feux on Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Founded: Dec 26, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Sheepatropolis » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:05 pm

Milograd wrote:
AS22 wrote:As someone who actually fought this fight in TSP, I'm calling BULLSHIT on this entire post.

It is just all bullshit, here we have Milo doing what Milo does... he's a roleplayer.

He never lifted a finger in TSP and was part of the problem, this is some pretend BS he drew up to cover himself, he has no reform and no doctrine and TSP is worse off for his stunt.

Bullshit.

You are just annoyed because you were too incompetent to do the fight any justice, Anur. This is understandable.


Little early to gloat just yet, I think.
Ex Elected Minister of Security for The South Pacific

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Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 633
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:13 pm

Except Todd, Milo doesn't give one reason how these 'high influence nations' prevented change here. Anyone in TSP can join the TSP assembly, and mass TGs have made the nations aware of that. The laws of TSP can be changed at any time by a majority vote in the Assembly.

His argument is pure propaganda.

To answer your questions of influence lets look at what happened. Milo ran for delegate on a platform of fairly mild democratic reforms, and when he became delegate he did something 100% different. As far as we can tell, no one else is in on his plan. His goal here was just to make a statement on influence. Should TSP be forced to deal with Milograd using the kick-ban button for months as would have happened pre-influence? Having mods making subjective rulings on if he kicked enough people? Or should the long term residents of the region have some basic protections and be able to deal with it in a day?

In this case, influence worked. And influence isn't the only means of preventing change, before influence it was the kick ban button.

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AS22
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 188
Founded: Oct 14, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby AS22 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:30 pm

Milograd wrote:
AS22 wrote:As someone who actually fought this fight in TSP, I'm calling BULLSHIT on this entire post.

It is just all bullshit, here we have Milo doing what Milo does... he's a roleplayer.

He never lifted a finger in TSP and was part of the problem, this is some pretend BS he drew up to cover himself, he has no reform and no doctrine and TSP is worse off for his stunt.

Bullshit.

You are just annoyed because you were too incompetent to do the fight any justice, Anur. This is understandable.


I'm going to enjoy seeing you leave the seat in disgrace.
Biyah does not want you to see THIS (scroll all the way down)
[20:52] <PurpleHaze> r u trying to recruit me Unibot?
[20:53] <Unibot> ....
[20:53] * Unibot looks around.
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> i thought u'd know from my IP
[20:53] <Unibot> Errrmm..
[20:53] <Unibot> <_<
[20:53] <Unibot> >_>
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> I am Anur-Sanur/Hax/Horak/Frak
[20:53] <Unibot> Ahhhhhhh
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> and your mother
[20:53] * Unibot runs. :P
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> tee hee
[20:54] * PurpleHaze kisses Unibot
[20:54] <Unibot> ^_^
(who I am known as)

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:31 pm

Influence means nothing if your government is built to serve off-site.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Todd McCloud
Senator
 
Posts: 4088
Founded: Oct 11, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Todd McCloud » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:Influence means nothing if your government is built to serve off-site.

Ideally, that should be the case. But off-site governments cannot ignore in-game mechanics, no matter how much a government wants to ignore them. Indeed, a lot of big regions have positions solely designed for high influence nations. Maybe that's not the only qualification, but it's a big one. TEP has viziers. TWP has guardians. TNP has the Security Council. Multiple other regions have vice-delegates that are typically chosen for their longevity and high influence (kind of a 'back up' in case the current delegate goes nuts so to speak). More or less, they're relied upon as people who can maintain the status quo. Government positions can keep them in check if they decide to follow the government. But once their opinions change with the direction of the region, that's when we get difficulties. So I respectfully disagree.
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