Statement on TSP's Rogue Delegate

[Cerian Quilor]

It's unfortunate that newer players like Cormac don't understand how duality works. It used to be a lot more common.

It's truly a lost art. The whippersnappers want everything their way. I think I'll call them the McDonald's Generation of NS. Heavens forbid someone decide to play the game the way they see fit.

Duality existed in the past.

This isn't the older era of NS, and it never will be, not least of all because the Mods seperated RP and GP completely.

[Cerian Quilor]

With Defenders having the numbers they can assemble, it can take upwards of forty endorsements to hold a territory for any meaningful length of time. Feeders can't spare that kind of numbers, not in more than one region, even if they could mobilize that much in the first place, which they can't for the same reason 10KI can't mobilize the majority of its 800-odd endorsements for military operations.

It's really not that out of the realm of possibility. I've seen it done, "back in the day" look at the numbers Gatesville has, or the number the USSR had. With proper management and recruiting, a feeder could assemble an unstoppable force, making TNI look like bush league amateurs. Jussayin'

This isn't 'back in the day'. The world isn't the way it once was.

[Lint Roller]

It's really not that out of the realm of possibility. I've seen it done, "back in the day" look at the numbers Gatesville has, or the number the USSR had. With proper management and recruiting, a feeder could assemble an unstoppable force, making TNI look like bush league amateurs. Jussayin'

This isn't 'back in the day'. The world isn't the way it once was.

You said that already in your first post. Anyways, the mods may have a ruling on the forums but I refuse to be told how to play this game, or to be told that some degree of RP doesn't exist in GP. You're never going to convince me. I choose to play this game how I please, and I intend to keep on playing it this way.

Lint Roller=Lint Roller

[Cerian Quilor]

This isn't 'back in the day'. The world isn't the way it once was.

You said that already in your first post. Anyways, the mods may have a ruling on the forums but I refuse to be told how to play this game, or to be told that some degree of RP doesn't exist in GP. You're never going to convince me. I choose to play this game how I please, and I intend to keep on playing it this way.

Lint Roller=Lint Roller

Gameplay is not the Nations, its the People behind them. The reason why the shift happened is also because of this thing called trust. Sure, I could have another nation that was a seperate persona, and perhaps was a defender. Not really sure the UDL would trust that seperate persona, knowing it is me, the Arch-Imperialist. An extreme example, but there is a reason.

GP has changed. You can't play things the way you played them years ago.

[Lint Roller]

You said that already in your first post. Anyways, the mods may have a ruling on the forums but I refuse to be told how to play this game, or to be told that some degree of RP doesn't exist in GP. You're never going to convince me. I choose to play this game how I please, and I intend to keep on playing it this way.

Lint Roller=Lint Roller

Gameplay is not the Nations, its the People behind them. The reason why the shift happened is also because of this thing called trust. Sure, I could have another nation that was a seperate persona, and perhaps was a defender. Not really sure the UDL would trust that seperate persona, knowing it is me, the Arch-Imperialist. An extreme example, but there is a reason.

GP has changed. You can't play things the way you played them years ago.

Good thing I'm not in the UDL I guess. I play the game the way I see fit. Others play this way as well. We can keep doing this dance but the fact remains that I choose to play this way. No one has the right to tell me how to play. Are you a King of a RL empire called Kantrias? Should I address you as HRH Cerian Qualor? No, you have a real name, you're a person behind a computer screen, like myself. It's ridiculous to claim that there is no RP in GP.

[TAO the Wanderer]

TAO thinks duality (then and now) is a great game mechanism. It is still as valid a game tool today as it was years ago. I know this from experience.

There is a real satisfaction playing more than one persona in this game to such a level of perfection that, unless you rat out yourself, no one will ever know. It is possible. And it is possible to take those different personae in different directions and become important and well-known in the game under multiple nation/forum identities.

[Cormac Stark]

Good thing I'm not in the UDL I guess. I play the game the way I see fit. Others play this way as well. We can keep doing this dance but the fact remains that I choose to play this way. No one has the right to tell me how to play. Are you a King of a RL empire called Kantrias? Should I address you as HRH Cerian Qualor? No, you have a real name, you're a person behind a computer screen, like myself. It's ridiculous to claim that there is no RP in GP.

A few things:

1. I thought you were UDL Commander now?

2. No, but seriously, it's not just a good thing you're not in the UDL. It's awesome.

3. Yes, he is. Yes, you should address him that way.

4. Don't make this about RP, duality, etc. This was a switcher that you used in military operations for TPA, not an RP nation, and you would have been proud enough to claim it as Karpathos on any of those operations. That you're not proud to claim it here speaks volumes about this coup and the people and motives behind it. Revolutionaries backed by a popular mandate don't need to hide behind the cloak of a puppet or the shadows of duality.

[Lint Roller]

Good thing I'm not in the UDL I guess. I play the game the way I see fit. Others play this way as well. We can keep doing this dance but the fact remains that I choose to play this way. No one has the right to tell me how to play. Are you a King of a RL empire called Kantrias? Should I address you as HRH Cerian Qualor? No, you have a real name, you're a person behind a computer screen, like myself. It's ridiculous to claim that there is no RP in GP.

A few things:

1. I thought you were UDL Commander now?

2. No, but seriously, it's not just a good thing you're not in the UDL. It's awesome.

3. Yes, he is. Yes, you should address him that way.

4. Don't make this about RP, duality, etc. This was a switcher that you used in military operations for TPA, not an RP nation, and you would have been proud enough to claim it as Karpathos on any of those operations. That you're not proud to claim it here speaks volumes about this coup and the people and motives behind it. Revolutionaries backed by a popular mandate don't need to hide behind the cloak of a puppet or the shadows of duality.

1. Karpathos is Commander of the UDL, speaking of...you're supposed to liberate Nazi Europe.

2.

3.

4. Speaking as the player behind Lint Roller: Yes, I have used this nation for other military endeavors. I personally like this nation, it's an oldie, and I sent it over. I have decided to make it a separate character. We all know that, Peter (the player behind the screen), controls a few nations some of which are known, some of which are not. Lint Roller is proud to be part of Milograd's revolution. I'm not hiding behind anything, I'm playing this text-based game how I see fit. Just because it doesn't fit in to your view of how NS should be played means little to me. I've been playing this game longer than you have and I will continue to do so in the manner I've always done. Look, it's no secret Karpathos has trolled you on IRC, that's his persona. That's the role I choose to play with that particular nation. How you're (IRL) getting all bent out of shape over a game proves why you could never practice duality; and as an extension, understand duality. In fact, I'll go as far to admit I'm also a defender with the FRA. That's neither here nor there. This is a game with tons of lee-way on how one can play it. That's all.

[Punk Daddy]

This game would be so much more fun if people were allowed to RP multiple nations within Gameplay.

It was just a lot of fun but became impossible when people took every action a player took as a RL action. I'd love a return where I could play Maximus Punk II again...

[Lint Roller]

This game would be so much more fun if people were allowed to RP multiple nations within Gameplay.

It was just a lot of fun but became impossible when people took every action a player took as a RL action. I'd love a return where I could play Maximus Punk II again...

Who says you're not allowed?

[Communist Eraser]

For the record: I also believe in Gameplay duality.

Sometimes I regret outing myself that 'Communist Eraser' is 'Warzone Codger', they are supposed to be different characters..

[Glath]

I also believe in duality. I treat all my nations as distinct, both in RP and GP. I don't do that much with GP duality, partly because too many people take it all too seriously, but that's my personal preference.

[The North Polish Union]

Gameplay duality isn't dead. I've done it myself at times. Although who the other nation is I'll never tell you.

[Punk Daddy]

This game would be so much more fun if people were allowed to RP multiple nations within Gameplay.

It was just a lot of fun but became impossible when people took every action a player took as a RL action. I'd love a return where I could play Maximus Punk II again...

Who says you're not allowed?

It's just impossible to play it when 90% of the players don't respect the concept of duality. I used to have a few personas that were all different the_spy was an international spy,kidzz was an all around good guy with serious defender leanings, and big_d_baby was a nation I tried to play as my more RL self (much less sarcastic and blunt-to-everyone).

Perhaps we need to make a duality pact and have regions sign up for it. Having said that, there very few players I'd trust today to play both raider and defender keeping the two separate. Not because it's not possible, but because i just don't trust today's GPers by and large.

[Ananke II]

From what I remember people tended to mostly yell duality when they got caught trying to squirrel in somewhere they weren't wanted due to previous actions or loyalties in the game. The rest of us were then supposed to believe that duality let them keep their personas so far apart that info known by one persona wouldn't leak to their other persona. Yeah, no.

[Manegarmr]

So when revealed as being somebody else than originally portrayed the errant gameplayer would claim "Dualitic Immunity" and be exempt from any consequence of their in-game actions eh?

Gotta love sophistry!

[Sophistry]

Gotta love sophistry!

It's good to be loved.

I think the primary problem people have with duality is that it runs directly counter to the beliefs and ideals of moral defenderism. You can't be a raider at the major and the turn around and be a moral defender at the minor. That is because those beliefs say that a nation's actions transcend the individual nation and reflect directly upon the beliefs of the player. It is the player behind the nation that has to have drunk deeply of the cup of moral defender koolaid before such a title can be taken up. That is why we defenders are in shock when situations like the Solm/Milograd conversation come to light. How can Solm claim to be a defender when he isn't always a defender in every conversation with every person on NS?

Now, I don't know if I agree with this mindset, but I do recognize it is there.

[Cerian Quilor]

Gameplay is not the Nations, its the People behind them. The reason why the shift happened is also because of this thing called trust. Sure, I could have another nation that was a seperate persona, and perhaps was a defender. Not really sure the UDL would trust that seperate persona, knowing it is me, the Arch-Imperialist. An extreme example, but there is a reason.

GP has changed. You can't play things the way you played them years ago.

Good thing I'm not in the UDL I guess. I play the game the way I see fit. Others play this way as well. We can keep doing this dance but the fact remains that I choose to play this way. No one has the right to tell me how to play. Are you a King of a RL empire called Kantrias? Should I address you as HRH Cerian Qualor? No, you have a real name, you're a person behind a computer screen, like myself. It's ridiculous to claim that there is no RP in GP.

Except that Cerian Quilor is the only name I am known by in NS.

[Milograd]

Gotta love sophistry!

It's good to be loved.

I think the primary problem people have with duality is that it runs directly counter to the beliefs and ideals of moral defenderism. You can't be a raider at the major and the turn around and be a moral defender at the minor. That is because those beliefs say that a nation's actions transcend the individual nation and reflect directly upon the beliefs of the player. It is the player behind the nation that has to have drunk deeply of the cup of moral defender koolaid before such a title can be taken up. That is why we defenders are in shock when situations like the Solm/Milograd conversation come to light. How can Solm claim to be a defender when he isn't always a defender in every conversation with every person on NS?

Now, I don't know if I agree with this mindset, but I do recognize it is there.

That Solm/Milograd conversation was hardly serious and I'm still amused that people consider it to be.

That isn't the conversation that inspired the movement and everyone involved, save for perhaps Solm, assumed that it was a joke.

[Nullarni]

That Solm/Milograd conversation was hardly serious and I'm still amused that people consider it to be.

That isn't the conversation that inspired the movement and everyone involved, save for perhaps Solm, assumed that it was a joke.

But that's entirely my point. Even if that type of talk wasn't serious, people still think: how can someone who claims to be a moral defender even joke about such things? I think the evidence of such thinking is in how the UDL, (myself included, unfortunately,) was so quick to cast Solm out at the first sign of him betraying the ideals.

[Our Peoples Progress]

>moral defender

There is your problem.

[Likako]

It's good to be loved.

I think the primary problem people have with duality is that it runs directly counter to the beliefs and ideals of moral defenderism. You can't be a raider at the major and the turn around and be a moral defender at the minor. That is because those beliefs say that a nation's actions transcend the individual nation and reflect directly upon the beliefs of the player. It is the player behind the nation that has to have drunk deeply of the cup of moral defender koolaid before such a title can be taken up. That is why we defenders are in shock when situations like the Solm/Milograd conversation come to light. How can Solm claim to be a defender when he isn't always a defender in every conversation with every person on NS?

Now, I don't know if I agree with this mindset, but I do recognize it is there.

That Solm/Milograd conversation was hardly serious and I'm still amused that people consider it to be.

That isn't the conversation that inspired the movement and everyone involved, save for perhaps Solm, assumed that it was a joke.

The presented logs contain the key players in this movement, and by your own admission there is another conversation involving the same group that sorted out the specifics of this "revolution." Therefore whether that conversation was a joke or not is irrelevant.

[Solm]

The presented logs contain the key players in this movement, and by your own admission there is another conversation involving the same group that sorted out the specifics of this "revolution." Therefore whether that conversation was a joke or not is irrelevant.

Lol? The presented logs contain which key players? Only Milograd. No one else in the leaked logs is even remotely involved in this. And no other conversation ever occurred.

[Unistrut]

From what I remember people tended to mostly yell duality when they got caught trying to squirrel in somewhere they weren't wanted due to previous actions or loyalties in the game. The rest of us were then supposed to believe that duality let them keep their personas so far apart that info known by one persona wouldn't leak to their other persona. Yeah, no.

Ananke is 100% correct.

People wishing for duality are wanting to have their cake and eat it, too. If you're messing around in a regional government, especially one which affects as many nations as a feeder government does, people are right to do their due diligence. I recall, for instance, how quickly the idea of duality went out the window in The North Pacific when the anagrammatically-named UPS Rail (NPO member Sir Paul) took the delegacy in 2004. Once the shock factor took hold, the natives of that region would have none of it. People who actually want to have a fair government in their region don't want duality. They want honesty.

I think a lot of people are too willing to accept an easy road for their own political benefit than to actually stand for (or against) something and risk themselves. This is nothing new, and it is nothing I haven't seen thousands of times before. In the past (of which I am more familiar), it did happen more in the feeders, where people tended to bend whichever way the wind blows. Anything for position.

[B Wolf]

Welcome back Uni!