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PNN: Trial of Ravania Continues in TNP; Falsehoods Revealed

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Milograd
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PNN: Trial of Ravania Continues in TNP; Falsehoods Revealed

Postby Milograd » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:01 pm

Trial of Ravania Continues in TNP; Falsehoods Revealed
4 April, 2013 || Pacific News Network

Image

PICTURED: Malashaan address the Court while Ravania looks away.

COURTHOUSE, THE NORTH PACIFIC -- The trial of Ravania, a UDL lieutenant accused of espionage and treason against The North Pacific, continues this week and has entered into the evidence discovery phase. The charges arose out of an incident during the raid of Warhammer 40000, an operation in which the North Pacific Army (NPA) was assisting the raider delegate against the UDL. Ravania, at the time an NPA member, provided internal NPA documents discussing the operation to the UDL. Information contained in these documents was later allegedly used by Unibot in an attempt to manipulate TNP's Regional Assembly into withdrawing the NPA, in order to simplify the UDL's liberation attempts. After two days of secrecy on the part of the UDL, the leak only came to light after UDL Lieutenant and TNP Administrator and former Delegate Eluvatar, loyal to his home region of TNP, disclosed the matter to NPA leadership. At this point, the UDL's spin cycle kicked into overdrive as they handed out minor punishments to all involved and promised full cooperation, while The North Pacific began an investigation which has thus far resulted in the indictment against Ravania.

Following the disclosure of this matter to the NPA, Ravania's actions were investigated and he was dismissed from the NPA. Shortly thereafter, the Attorney General of The North Pacific, Gaspo, assisted by Deputy Attorney General Belschaft, filed charges of Treason and Espionage, which were accepted by the Court and have proceeded to trial. In response to the charges, Ravania secured Malashaan as counsel and entered a plea of "not guilty" to the espionage and treason charges lodged against him. Malashaan subsequently attempted to have the charges dismissed, arguing that Ravania couldn't be guilty of espionage, because the private information from TNP's forums was not sufficiently material, and because its disclosure was a form of protected speech. TNP Attorney General Gaspo objected, arguing that free speech does not extend to the speech of others, and that an individual does not automatically have a right to disclose something, simply because they have access to it. The motions to dismiss were denied by Chief Justice Abbey Anumia, who found the defense's arguments unpersuasive.

With the trial proceeding to the Discovery stage, in which evidence is uncovered and submitted to the Court, a startling revelation came to light today, in the form of the log from an internal UDL officer channel that was submitted as evidence by the prosecution. The log contains evidence of UDL Lieutenant Mahaj soliciting a more complete disclosure of the thread, in the form of screenshots, than the simple copy-paste provided initially by Ravania. This directly contradicts previous statements from both Ravania and the UDL, which claimed that at no point did the UDL (or, presumably, any of its senior officers) actively solicit or request information from Ravania. "UDL has never asked me to give any intel on operations of a foreign military I am part of," Ravania said in a public statement in which he resigned his TNP citizenship.

In his announcement entitled "In Regards to the North Pacific's Investigation," Unibot echoed this claim when he said, "It should be clear that we did not order this action; Lieutenant Ravania [leaked private NPA information] under his free-will." A slightly shortened version of the logs, provided below, demonstrates the contradiction between the UDL's statements, and the way the events actually played out. The full version can be found here. The only elements which have been removed from the copy submitted to the Court, are off-topic discussions unrelated to the matter. The crucial commentary from Mahaj comes at 05:55PM.

[Mar 18 2013, 05:51 PM] <Ravania> btw McM is questioning BW in NPA thread
[Mar 18 2013, 05:51 PM] * Tim-Opolis nods
[Mar 18 2013, 05:52 PM] <Solm> Btw: BW is smart. And his ultimate goal is to turn NPA raider.
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Mahaj> yo Rav
[Mar 18 2013, 05:55 PM] <Mahaj> could we get screenshots?
[Mar 18 2013, 05:56 PM] <Mahaj> if you have chrome, there's an extension that screenshots the whole page, even stuff below the fold
[Mar 18 2013, 05:57 PM] <Solm> wut
[Mar 18 2013, 05:57 PM] <Solm> Gimme this extension
[Mar 18 2013, 05:57 PM] <Mahaj> at least i've heard there is
[Mar 18 2013, 05:58 PM] <Mahaj> hm i think its called screensh00ter
[Mar 18 2013, 05:59 PM] <Ravania> just making a pdf works too
[Mar 18 2013, 06:01 PM] <Mahaj> okay yeah its not below the fold
[Mar 18 2013, 06:01 PM] <Mahaj> dissapointing
[Mar 18 2013, 06:01 PM] <Mahaj> i'll talk to my friend see what he was talking about
[Mar 18 2013, 06:03 PM] <Ravania> --link removed-- <-- here you go
[Mar 18 2013, 06:11 PM] <Ravania> Hm, I never knew pdf, kept the links provided...
[Mar 18 2013, 06:12 PM] <Tim-Opolis> It does
[Mar 18 2013, 06:12 PM] <Ravania> i can even reply from the pdf...
[Mar 18 2013, 06:14 PM] <Tim-Opolis> Yuup.

While the UDL has repeatedly claimed that it is fully cooperating with the investigation of The North Pacific, it has yet to publicly produce any chat logs beyond that admitted to the Court. No record of any discussions regarding the leaked documents, at any point over the two days between the leak and its public disclosure, has been made public. The Office of the Attorney General of The North Pacific declined to comment, citing a policy of refraining from comment on confidential details of ongoing investigations.

-----
Written by Milograd
The Pacific Press: A Newspaper with Issues
Proudly Part of PNN
Last edited by Milograd on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:05 pm

:clap:

Interesting. But utterly unsurprising that the UDL lied in its press release.
Last edited by Cerian Quilor on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:10 pm

Mahaj, at the time, was not a higher rank than Ravania -- that could not have been an order. Moreover, that's a chat with friends gossiping (admittedly way beyond Ravania's legal duty to NPA) not a discussion of intelligence leaks -- no important information that was not already known was being discussed, just Ravania and Mahaj making idiots of themselves while gawking at Mcmasterdonia's criticism of Blue Wolf.

I stand by The United Defenders League's assertion that Ravania was not ordered by The United Defenders League to release any of the information that Ravania did. I never ordered Ravania to do so, nor did Solm do so.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:12 pm

Mahaj lives inside your *ss, Unibot. To argue him asking for something like that isn't the UDL asking... :roll:
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Solm
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Postby Solm » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:14 pm

Somebody incorrectly quoted me: "[Mar 18 2013, 05:52 PM] <Solm> Btw: BW is smart. And his ultimate goal is to turn NPA raider."

I would never say that is BW's ultimate goal. It is common knowledge that BW's ultimate goal is to coup TNP and then make NPA defenders.

Also:
No record of any discussions regarding the leaked documents, at any point over the two days between the leak and its public disclosure, has been made public.


The UDL released all discussion about the leaked documents from Ravania that went on in the command channel. The logs were never ever talked about after that until they were publicly disclosed.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:14 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:Mahaj lives inside your *ss, Unibot.


Excuse me?
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
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Ambroscus Koth
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Postby Ambroscus Koth » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:17 pm

Unibot III wrote:Moreover, that's a chat with friends gossiping (admittedly way beyond Ravania's legal duty to NPA) not a discussion of intelligence leaks -- no important information that was not already known was being discussed


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Cormac Stark
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Postby Cormac Stark » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:24 pm

This is, as has become par for the course, unacceptable. I repeat the call I made within The UDL two days ago for Unibot to step down as Chief of the Band and, while not resigning from The UDL, I will not participate until this minimum threshold of necessary change is met. I urge other UDL Merrymen to do the same and I urge the Lieutenants of The UDL to demand what is necessary for the organization's very survival, let alone its credibility.

It goes without saying that both Mahaj and Ravania should be relieved of duty for at least one month and, at minimum, be demoted to the rank of Merryman, ineligible for promotion beyond that rank. That, too, is the minimum threshold of necessary change.

As defenders, The UDL must be accountable to the natives of the very regions that place their trust in us. That begins by our leadership being accountable to the band of natives that comprise The UDL itself. Change is necessary -- not a week from now, not a month from now, not six months from now and after the next scandal, but right now.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:26 pm

Ambroscus Koth wrote:
Unibot III wrote:Moreover, that's a chat with friends gossiping (admittedly way beyond Ravania's legal duty to NPA) not a discussion of intelligence leaks -- no important information that was not already known was being discussed


Image


Well, it wasn't an intelligence operation by The United Defenders League, it wasn't sanctioned by me or Chief Lt. Solm, it didn't unveil any new information, so no, I stand by our assertion that this was not an espionage mission -- this was two players making an ass of themselves in the wrong channel, venting about Blue Wolf.

This is, as has become par for the course, unacceptable. I repeat the call I made within The UDL two days ago for Unibot to step down as Chief of the Band and, while not resigning from The UDL


Your reasoning for this changes everyday depending on the political winds (literally, your reasoning changes every hour, depending upon who your audience is and how desperate you are to get me removed as the head of the UDL). First it's my health, then it's regional security, now it's irresponsibility.. what's next, Cormac? I am absolutely disgusted I trusted you with my own details of my personal life when you've been playing a political game regarding the status of my health for at least a week now. That's very concerning to me.

Frankly, the lows that people sink to in this game is perhaps the most disturbing thing about NationStates Gameplay.
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

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Ambroscus Koth
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Postby Ambroscus Koth » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:32 pm

Unibot III wrote:Frankly, the lows that people sink to in this game is perhaps the most disturbing thing about NationStates Gameplay.


I'm laughing for real right now
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Cormac Stark
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Postby Cormac Stark » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:46 pm

Unibot III wrote:Your reasoning for this changes everyday depending on the political winds (literally, your reasoning changes every hour, depending upon who your audience is and how desperate you are to get me removed as the head of the UDL). First it's my health, then it's regional security, now it's irresponsibility.. what's next, Cormac? I am absolutely disgusted I trusted you with my own details of my personal life when you've been playing a political game regarding the status of my health for at least a week now. That's very concerning to me.

Frankly, the lows that people sink to in this game is perhaps the most disturbing thing about NationStates Gameplay.

It couldn't possibly be that I'm concerned for all of those reasons. I didn't mention your health here precisely because you trusted me with the details of your personal life, and the appropriate venue for those details is not the Gameplay forum or any other forum. But yes, for the record and since you brought it up, I am concerned about your health and I am most certainly not playing a political game with it. Exhibit A: I didn't mention it, and limited my reasoning to in-game reasons. Perhaps you should stop playing political games with your health and take it more seriously.

I do agree about the lows that people sink to in NS Gameplay. Disturbing indeed.

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Mahaj
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Postby Mahaj » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:53 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:Mahaj lives inside your *ss, Unibot. To argue him asking for something like that isn't the UDL asking... :roll:

Damn, and to think that all this time I've been putting the wrong Zip Code on my forms!
Last edited by Mahaj on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aal Izz Well: UDL
<Koth> I'm still going by the assumption that Mahaj is Unibot's kid brother or something
Kandarin(Naivetry): You're going to have a great NS career ahead of you if you want it, Mahaj. :)
<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
<+frattastan> Because his region was never raided.
<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:56 pm

Cormac Stark wrote:
Unibot III wrote:Your reasoning for this changes everyday depending on the political winds (literally, your reasoning changes every hour, depending upon who your audience is and how desperate you are to get me removed as the head of the UDL). First it's my health, then it's regional security, now it's irresponsibility.. what's next, Cormac? I am absolutely disgusted I trusted you with my own details of my personal life when you've been playing a political game regarding the status of my health for at least a week now. That's very concerning to me.

Frankly, the lows that people sink to in this game is perhaps the most disturbing thing about NationStates Gameplay.

It couldn't possibly be that I'm concerned for all of those reasons. I didn't mention your health here precisely because you trusted me with the details of your personal life, and the appropriate venue for those details is not the Gameplay forum or any other forum. But yes, for the record and since you brought it up, I am concerned about your health and I am most certainly not playing a political game with it. Exhibit A: I didn't mention it, and limited my reasoning to in-game reasons. Perhaps you should stop playing political games with your health and take it more seriously.

I do agree about the lows that people sink to in NS Gameplay. Disturbing indeed.


You messaged everyone on the UDL's staff with private logs of me (without my permission), trying to imply I'm mentally unfit for duty, then a day later say publicly, "yeah.. what PNN said.. I told UDL that it should have fired Unibot because it would make the UDL more.. responsible".

No, you told UDL that it should demote me because I was wildly out of control and mentally unfit because of details of my personal life that I wrongfully chose to disclose with you. You can continue to bandwagon on whatever political talking point seems to achieve your political objective, Cormac, or you can maintain some authenticity and credibility. You cannot do both.

Also, Mahaj, that is a thoroughly amusing response. :P

- Uni
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
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Hileville
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Postby Hileville » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:00 pm

Cormac Stark wrote:This is, as has become par for the course, unacceptable. I repeat the call I made within The UDL two days ago for Unibot to step down as Chief of the Band and, while not resigning from The UDL, I will not participate until this minimum threshold of necessary change is met. I urge other UDL Merrymen to do the same and I urge the Lieutenants of The UDL to demand what is necessary for the organization's very survival, let alone its credibility.

It goes without saying that both Mahaj and Ravania should be relieved of duty for at least one month and, at minimum, be demoted to the rank of Merryman, ineligible for promotion beyond that rank. That, too, is the minimum threshold of necessary change.

As defenders, The UDL must be accountable to the natives of the very regions that place their trust in us. That begins by our leadership being accountable to the band of natives that comprise The UDL itself. Change is necessary -- not a week from now, not a month from now, not six months from now and after the next scandal, but right now.


It is nice to see someone advocating for what is in the UDL's best interest. I agree 100% with your comments here.
Last edited by Hileville on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mahaj
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Postby Mahaj » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:09 pm

Cormac Stark wrote:This is, as has become par for the course, unacceptable. I repeat the call I made within The UDL two days ago for Unibot to step down as Chief of the Band and, while not resigning from The UDL, I will not participate until this minimum threshold of necessary change is met. I urge other UDL Merrymen to do the same and I urge the Lieutenants of The UDL to demand what is necessary for the organization's very survival, let alone its credibility.

It goes without saying that both Mahaj and Ravania should be relieved of duty for at least one month and, at minimum, be demoted to the rank of Merryman, ineligible for promotion beyond that rank. That, too, is the minimum threshold of necessary change.

As defenders, The UDL must be accountable to the natives of the very regions that place their trust in us. That begins by our leadership being accountable to the band of natives that comprise The UDL itself. Change is necessary -- not a week from now, not a month from now, not six months from now and after the next scandal, but right now.

Currently, the UDL is being accountable to itself internally, and is routinely out defending natives.

It would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to permanently demote two lieutenants, hamper the organization, and it would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to be accountable to outside interests that would like nothing more than seeing the UDL destroyed.
Aal Izz Well: UDL
<Koth> I'm still going by the assumption that Mahaj is Unibot's kid brother or something
Kandarin(Naivetry): You're going to have a great NS career ahead of you if you want it, Mahaj. :)
<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
<+frattastan> Because his region was never raided.
<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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Ambroscus Koth
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Postby Ambroscus Koth » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:12 pm

Mahaj wrote:Currently, the UDL is being accountable to itself internally, and is routinely out defending natives.

It would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to permanently demote two lieutenants, hamper the organization, and it would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to be accountable to outside interests that would like nothing more than seeing the UDL destroyed.


Yeah because that's really been working out well, right?
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Hileville
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Postby Hileville » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:13 pm

Mahaj wrote:
Cormac Stark wrote:This is, as has become par for the course, unacceptable. I repeat the call I made within The UDL two days ago for Unibot to step down as Chief of the Band and, while not resigning from The UDL, I will not participate until this minimum threshold of necessary change is met. I urge other UDL Merrymen to do the same and I urge the Lieutenants of The UDL to demand what is necessary for the organization's very survival, let alone its credibility.

It goes without saying that both Mahaj and Ravania should be relieved of duty for at least one month and, at minimum, be demoted to the rank of Merryman, ineligible for promotion beyond that rank. That, too, is the minimum threshold of necessary change.

As defenders, The UDL must be accountable to the natives of the very regions that place their trust in us. That begins by our leadership being accountable to the band of natives that comprise The UDL itself. Change is necessary -- not a week from now, not a month from now, not six months from now and after the next scandal, but right now.

Currently, the UDL is being accountable to itself internally, and is routinely out defending natives.

It would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to permanently demote two lieutenants, hamper the organization, and it would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to be accountable to outside interests that would like nothing more than seeing the UDL destroyed.


Could that be because you are one of them? Nice statement by the way. Certainly shows how the UDL stands on infringing on the rights of feeders.
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Cormac Stark
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Postby Cormac Stark » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:15 pm

Unibot III wrote:You messaged everyone on the UDL's staff with private logs of me (without my permission), trying to imply I'm mentally unfit for duty, then a day later say publicly, "yeah.. what PNN said.. I told UDL that it should have fired Unibot because it would make the UDL more.. responsible".

No, you told UDL that it should demote me because I was wildly out of control and mentally unfit because of details of my personal life that I wrongfully chose to disclose with you. You can continue to bandwagon on whatever political talking point seems to achieve your political objective, Cormac, or you can maintain some authenticity and credibility. You cannot do both.

Also, Mahaj, that is a thoroughly amusing response. :P

- Uni

I messaged every Lieutenant with unedited logs accompanied by a one line message that read: "I know Unibot has posted in the Lieutenants forum that I want him to step down. I'm not going to try to influence you either way, but I think you should have these logs in order to make an informed decision:" At no point did I imply that you were mentally unfit and if the logs implied that then it was your own unedited words that implied it and certainly not my doing. Note also that I sent the logs to the Lieutenants after you posted a message in that forum completely distorting my reasons for demanding that you step down, thus leaving them with absurdly inaccurate context at the same time you were asking them if they shared my view. Finally, those logs included zero information that you did not choose to post in a public venue on your own initiative -- in fact, they contained less information than you've willingly disclosed.

And don't get all high and mighty here, you've shared private logs when I confided in you as a friend that I not only didn't give you permission to share but explicitly asked you not to share -- and all for the furtherance of your political agenda. You violated my trust. I'll take slaps about my authenticity and credibility from others but not from you.

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Biyah
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Postby Biyah » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:16 pm

*Get caught spying

*Announces it holds itself accountable internally, but nowhere else, because think of the Natives man! Think of the natives!

That is the worst logic ever used in cases of espionage. ADN booted people for less, just to avoid ^ that terrible defense.

~B
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-Better at this than you, live with it.

So sleep soundly in your beds tonight, for judgement falls upon you at first light. I'm the hand of God, I'm the dark messiah, I'm the vengeful one.

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Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:20 pm

Hileville wrote:
Mahaj wrote:Currently, the UDL is being accountable to itself internally, and is routinely out defending natives.

It would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to permanently demote two lieutenants, hamper the organization, and it would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to be accountable to outside interests that would like nothing more than seeing the UDL destroyed.


Could that be because you are one of them? Nice statement by the way. Certainly shows how the UDL stands on infringing on the rights of feeders.


I disagree with Mahaj, if Ravania and Mahaj did something worth removing them from the organization (as you called for), we would have removed from the organization. We don't have the job security that Mahaj is assuming, ultimately he signed an oath to be a good, trustworthy player and that means he can't use his offerings of services to defenderdom as a reason for slipping on his oath.

I think the demotions were more appropriate for the action than your proposed banishments -- the staff and I see their actions as having been boneheaded and negligent, as opposed to malicious. The punishment has to fit the crime and that works both ways. Furthermore, these were these officers' first offences.

- Uni
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5582
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:23 pm

Cormac Stark wrote:
And don't get all high and mighty here, you've shared private logs when I confided in you as a friend that I not only didn't give you permission to share but explicitly asked you not to share -- and all for the furtherance of your political agenda.


Furtherance of my political agenda? Excuse me, but a region's security was at risk in those logs and they've been swept under the carpet. More like the furtherance of my defender's pledge, Cormac.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Hileville
Envoy
 
Posts: 233
Founded: May 28, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Hileville » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:23 pm

Unibot III wrote:
Hileville wrote:
Could that be because you are one of them? Nice statement by the way. Certainly shows how the UDL stands on infringing on the rights of feeders.


I disagree with Mahaj, if Ravania and Mahaj did something worth removing them from the organization (as you called for), we would have removed from the organization. We don't have the job security that Mahaj is assuming, ultimately he signed an oath to be a good, trustworthy player and that means he can't use his offerings of services to defenderdom as a reason for slipping on his oath.

I think the demotions were more appropriate for the action than your proposed banishments -- the staff and I see their actions as having been boneheaded and negligent, as opposed to malicious. The punishment has to fit the crime and that works both ways.

- Uni


I never proposed Mahaj be banished before my departure. I have very strong feelings that Rav should be removed from the UDL for its actions which led to me stepping down. I don't believe that Mahaj deserves to be banished from the UDL for what was in the logs however a more longer term punishment should have been handed to him.
Hileville

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Mahaj
Senator
 
Posts: 4110
Founded: Dec 08, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Mahaj » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:30 pm

Hileville wrote:
Mahaj wrote:Currently, the UDL is being accountable to itself internally, and is routinely out defending natives.

It would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to permanently demote two lieutenants, hamper the organization, and it would not be being "accountable" to natives if we were to be accountable to outside interests that would like nothing more than seeing the UDL destroyed.


Could that be because you are one of them? Nice statement by the way. Certainly shows how the UDL stands on infringing on the rights of feeders.

I never said that, I'm not sure why you're getting that, but I doubt I could ever convince you otherwise.

I'm not suggesting that lieutenants should never step down, I'm saying that responses should be proportional, and that out-of-proportion punishments don't have any value.
Aal Izz Well: UDL
<Koth> I'm still going by the assumption that Mahaj is Unibot's kid brother or something
Kandarin(Naivetry): You're going to have a great NS career ahead of you if you want it, Mahaj. :)
<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
<+frattastan> Because his region was never raided.
<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:31 pm

Your definition of proportion isn't proportional
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Cormac Stark
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1417
Founded: Apr 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormac Stark » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:32 pm

Unibot III wrote:Furtherance of my political agenda? Excuse me, but a region's security was at risk in those logs and they've been swept under the carpet. More like the furtherance of my defender's pledge, Cormac.

You can't hide behind the Pledge of Scarlet for your every wrongdoing. "For the Natives" is an excuse that only goes so far, and the natives of The North Pacific are still waiting for you "to be incorruptible as a symbol of good in the face of intense adversaries; to atone any historical misconduct; to be a person rightfully known as one to trust when one needs ephectic assistance, defense and sound guidance; to defend with probity, native communities from insecurity, intimidation and terror on condition said communities do not will otherwise."

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