PNN: Trial of Ravania Continues in TNP; Falsehoods Revealed

[Unibot III]

That's out of date. He hasn't been operative as Vice Chief there for a long time.

Who has? I don't recall a new Vice Chief being announced. Is AMOM still Chief?

There is no Vice Chief at the moment, we had just given AMOM, Mahaj as back-up because we thought he needed it-- he didn't and Mahaj was quietly removed from the department, he wasn't very active in our intelligence affairs. A Mean Old Man is still Chief.

[Biyah]

Don't take this for sarcasm, but your statement just confused me. A lot.

Maj is on IRC every day, and active. AMOM has announced what amounts to a LoA, and that he's sick of the game, and is barely anywhere. I won't deny he could be active in UDL alone, but if he's not... your statement makes no sense.

[Unibot III]

Don't take this for sarcasm, but your statement just confused me. A lot.

Maj is on IRC every day, and active. AMOM has announced a LoA, and that he's sick of the game, and is barely anywhere. I won't deny he could be active in UDL alone, but if he's not... your statement makes no sense.

Mahaj hasn't been Vice Chief for a long time, before AMOM announced his LoA. Although after AMOM went inactive. Mahaj and I just didn't think that Mahaj and A Mean Old Man were really a match.

Mahaj has not been leading our Intel department if that's what you're suggesting.

[Biyah]

Nope, just pointing out that you stated Maj was removed for inactivity in intel - when the Chief you retained is actually gone.

Thank you for the clarification.

[Solorni]

So who runs intel in the UDL now?

[Gavin Novawk]

How amusing - a fractured UDL, with calls for Unibot to stand down. To think, the foolishness of the leadership and its members to attempt to influence the feeders has given way to more internal damage than the wars against the UDL.

I've heard calls for me to stand down for almost two years now from the same crowd, Gavin, I heard calls for me to stand down for a year before from that same crowd when I was head of the FRA. I accept that my leadership has a love/hate relationship with the public.

I created UDL to be a bulwark unaffected by their political influence; they can talk to us and we appreciate a reasonable dialogue but they won't have the sheer clout that they want without having a reasonable and justified argument to back their political claims up.

I will take what reasonable criticism I can draw from them into consideration and step down when my officers tell me to step down. At the moment they told me rather enthusiastically "no".

And yet these calls have never resulted in such a situation as now, with the whole world doubting the ability and the purity of the UDL to the extent that they are being treated as pariahs. Could you please demonstrate the 'love' element of your leadership? Aside from the obvious cult of Unibot.

You created a military organisation to defend the 'rights' of natives, and yet this organisation itself has served to propel your own status and has sought to influence the affairs of other regions, particularly GCR's, which placed trust in your and the UDL. You betrayed that trust, the UDL betrayed that trust. I must echo Rachel Anumia, 10KI is my preferred defender region and TITO is my preferred defender organisation, because they do not spit lies to the same extent and they certainly hold more prestige than the UDL as of late.

[Solm]

So who runs intel in the UDL now?

You do, didn't you get the memo?

---

Additionally: These claims that this was an intelligence operation to "steal" posts on TNP's forums that in no way have any military relevance is completely outrageous. Argue that what Ravania did was wrong in leaking the information, or Mahaj in asking for more due to his own curiosity or amusement, don't argue that this was some concentrated UDL intelligence mission (considering one of those hasn't existed since the start of the UDL that I can recall). Relating this to an intelligence mission of some sort just shows that one is merely trying to pull at straws and paint the UDL in a bad light, no matter what the truth is.

[Gavin Novawk]

So who runs intel in the UDL now?

You do, didn't you get the memo?

---

Additionally: These claims that this was an intelligence operation to "steal" posts on TNP's forums that in no way have any military relevance is completely outrageous. Argue that what Ravania did was wrong in leaking the information, or Mahaj in asking for more due to his own curiosity or amusement, don't argue that this was some concentrated UDL intelligence mission (considering one of those hasn't existed since the start of the UDL that I can recall). Relating this to an intelligence mission of some sort just shows that one is merely trying to pull at straws and paint the UDL in a bad light, no matter what the truth is.

You are pinning this too singularly on individuals. This happened in the UDL chat. UDL members and leaders looked on. The UDL had a moral responsibility in this situation and they failed to meet it, and indeed they only did attempt to meet it when they realised what an absolute shit storm they had caused. Everyone recognises what Ravania did was wrong, but what is even more wrong is that the UDL is projecting an image of itself as innocent and condemning one of its own members when actually, the organisation is at fault. The UDL is being painted in a bad light because it deserves it, to argue against that would represent a failure to learn from what has happened.

[Mahaj]

Could you please demonstrate the 'love' element of your leadership? Aside from the obvious cult of Unibot.

I'm not sure there would be a point, you wouldn't understand 'love'.

You created a military organisation to defend the 'rights' of natives, and yet this organisation itself has served to propel your own status and has sought to influence the affairs of other regions, particularly GCR's, which placed trust in your and the UDL. You betrayed that trust, the UDL betrayed that trust.

You, who walks into regions to convince them to turn raider, do not get to lecture about trust.

I must echo Rachel Anumia, 10KI is my preferred defender region and TITO is my preferred defender organisation, because they do not spit lies to the same extent and they certainly hold more prestige than the UDL as of late.

If both you and Rachel are hating on us, logic would indicate that we are doing something right.

[Solm]

You are pinning this too singularly on individuals. This happened in the UDL chat. UDL members and leaders looked on. The UDL had a moral responsibility in this situation and they failed to meet it, and indeed they only did attempt to meet it when they realised what an absolute shit storm they had caused. Everyone recognises what Ravania did was wrong, but what is even more wrong is that the UDL is projecting an image of itself as innocent and condemning one of its own members when actually, the organisation is at fault. The UDL is being painted in a bad light because it deserves it, to argue against that would represent a failure to learn from what has happened.

I don't think the UDL is painting itself as innocent, at least I'm not painting it as innocent. I recognize that the UDL, and all those in that chat, are very guilty for letting what transpired to happen. And yes, no one did anything until it became a shitstorm, but that mistake is realized as a mistake. I'm not, nor is the UDL, trying to say that what happened was in any way the right thing to do. From letting it happen in the first place to not reporting it after. And the members were punished by the UDL for letting that happen, whether anyone believes those punishments had any practical effect is unrelated, the action of punishing them at all is the UDL admitting that what they did, what the UDL did, was wrong. What I am arguing right now, though, is that calling for Ravania and Mahaj to be banned from the UDL is overkill and not the appropriate punishment. I'm not, nor is the UDL, suggesting that we don't deserve to be punished, and new polices need to be enacted, it's just the degree to which that people are calling for is what I am arguing with.

[Cerian Quilor]

And the UDL is acting like meaningless punishments are meaningful.

[Solorni]

I don't see how I'm hating on the UDL Mahaj, it's well known that my favourite defender region and org is 10KI and TITO respectively and I wrote about this in an article which had nothing to do with the UDL or the FRA.

[Belschaft]

I have half a mind to publish a list of currently serving UDL members who were part of the spring-summer 2012 internal discussions about removing Unibot as leader.

Only half a mind though.

[Unibot III]

I have half a mind to publish a list of currently serving UDL members who were part of the spring-summer 2012 internal discussions about removing Unibot as leader.

Please do, I'm curious. Only one has come forward to admit it, she did so while the discussion was ongoing.

[Gasponia]

I have half a mind to publish a list of currently serving UDL members who were part of the spring-summer 2012 internal discussions about removing Unibot as leader.

Please do, I'm curious. Only one has come forward to admit it, she did so while the discussion was ongoing.

Gearing up for another round of "if you don't worship me, GET OUT!" witchhunts?

[Blue Wolf II]

Additionally: These claims that this was an intelligence operation to "steal" posts on TNP's forums that in no way have any military relevance is completely outrageous. Argue that what Ravania did was wrong in leaking the information, or Mahaj in asking for more due to his own curiosity or amusement, don't argue that this was some concentrated UDL intelligence mission (considering one of those hasn't existed since the start of the UDL that I can recall). Relating this to an intelligence mission of some sort just shows that one is merely trying to pull at straws and paint the UDL in a bad light, no matter what the truth is.

Point of fact, this is not the first time the UDL has ended up with Intel from the NPA that the UDL was not suppose to have. I recall, quite clearly, Tim, while he was Vice-Delegate of TNP too boot, admitting to McMaster that he had a "source" in the UDL who provided him information about a failed operation and a conversation that happened entirely within a NPA IRC channel. When pressed, Tim refused to reveal his source, all while mocking the NPA for being "incompetent".

I very much doubt this is the first time Ravania gave out classified NPA information to the UDL. This is just the first time he was caught.

[Mahaj]

Additionally: These claims that this was an intelligence operation to "steal" posts on TNP's forums that in no way have any military relevance is completely outrageous. Argue that what Ravania did was wrong in leaking the information, or Mahaj in asking for more due to his own curiosity or amusement, don't argue that this was some concentrated UDL intelligence mission (considering one of those hasn't existed since the start of the UDL that I can recall). Relating this to an intelligence mission of some sort just shows that one is merely trying to pull at straws and paint the UDL in a bad light, no matter what the truth is.

Point of fact, this is not the first time the UDL has ended up with Intel from the NPA that the UDL was not suppose to have. I recall, quite clearly, Tim, while he was Vice-Delegate of TNP too boot, admitting to McMaster that he had a "source" in the NPA who provided him information about a failed liberation attempt and a conversation that happened entirely within a NPA IRC channel. When pressed, Tim refused to reveal his source, all while mocking the NPA for being "incompetent".

So when Tim personally gained intel, it becomes the "UDL's intel"? Can I similarly claim that any intel you have in TNP is the intel of Lone Wolves United?

I very much doubt this is the first time Ravania gave out classified NPA information to the UDL. This is just the first time he was caught.

Mmm character assassination. Is that all you're good for here, Evil Wolf?

[Blue Wolf II]

Tim didn't claim to get the information personally, he literally claimed to get the information "UDL side". He was quite brazen and upfront about this fact. On another note, if Ravania didn't leak that information to the UDL, Mahaj, then someone else did, which means the UDL had at least two people leaking classified NPA intel to them instead of just one. So less a "character assassination" and more the assumption that Ravania, who was already caught, was the only person leaking intel, unless you'd rather it be implied that someone else was doing the same, Mahaj.

[Unibot III]

Please do, I'm curious. Only one has come forward to admit it, she did so while the discussion was ongoing.

Gearing up for another round of "if you don't worship me, GET OUT!" witchhunts?

That's utterly unnecessary, witch-hunts are for people who aren't confident they can maintain the Chain of Command.

If a bunch of politicians and opportunists thought they could go to war with us on our own turf, I would prove them dead wrong and unilaterally annihilate their chances at forming any sort of productive organization from within us. You don't mess with the Greenwood Band and you certainly don't fuck with our Chain of Command on my watch.

So I don't need to "prosecute" anyone -- they didn't do anything beyond talk and they didn't do anything beyond that for a very good reason, because it would have been meant with infinite and unfettered, total resistance from every internal facet of the organization that the true and legitimate leadership of The United Defenders League could have mustered.

If my officers want me to resign they know how to get me to resign: talk to me. Those players decided to hide away in their little secret discussions -- I would have shown as little respect for such officers' opinions on my fitness for duty as the level of respect they showed for the organization's Chain of Command and its leadership.

[Belschaft]

Uni, it was every single Lt. you had at the time. And the bloody Chiefs of Staff. The only one who didn't take part at all was Bazlantis, as he was inactive.

The only reason you still run UDL is because none of us wanted your bloody job, and we recognized that any demands we made would fall flat unless we were willing to remove you.

[Mahaj]

The only reason you still run UDL is because none of us wanted your bloody job, and we recognized that any demands we made would fall flat unless we were willing to remove you.

Garbage. Uni still runs the UDL because we have decided he is still the best person for the job, even after you're gone.

[Jakker]

The only reason you still run UDL is because none of us wanted your bloody job, and we recognized that any demands we made would fall flat unless we were willing to remove you.

Garbage. Uni still runs the UDL because we have decided he is still the best person for the job, even after you're gone.

The fact that Uni is regarded as the best person for the job tells a lot about the UDL.

[Belschaft]

The only reason you still run UDL is because none of us wanted your bloody job, and we recognized that any demands we made would fall flat unless we were willing to remove you.

Garbage. Uni still runs the UDL because we have decided he is still the best person for the job, even after you're gone.

Says a fellow cabal member. If Ballo hadn't been made an admin we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Alyekra]

The only reason you still run UDL is because none of us wanted your bloody job, and we recognized that any demands we made would fall flat unless we were willing to remove you.

Garbage. Uni still runs the UDL because we have decided he is still the best person for the job, even after you're gone.

I think Uni's sheer charisma is the only thing that hold the UDL together.

[Unibot III]

Uni, it was every single Lt. you had at the time. And the bloody Chiefs of Staff. The only one who didn't take part at all was Bazlantis, as he was inactive.

I am completely unconcerned by this. They chose not to talk to me in unison about resigning and instead contemplated mutiny. I would have met their opposition with full-stop resistance -- you would have been annihilated and the Greenwood Band would have recovered swiftly. You can brag all you like about being mutinous, you would have gotten nowhere.

If Ballo hadn't been made an admin we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I would have defeated Ballotonia, as well, if he had chosen to have taken part in the mutiny. Simply because he was and still is my hero does not mean he was a hero for most of The United Defenders League -- only a smidgen of whom regularly attended our IRC.