The Rejected Times

[Kringalia]

Noting Belschaft's defamation suit, it seems a bit fishy to then declare him a security threat and bar him from doing anything useful in the region.

I suggest you look at all the facts for yourself, since his defamation suit had nothing to do with this decision. Furthermore, citizenship in the South Pacific is not required to press charges. Residents have all the rights of citizens as per our Bill of Rights, except voting and being elected.

[The Church of Satan]

Get over yourself Belschaft. You committed treason and confessed to plotting against TSP. If you're really so arrogant as to believe you can warp and twist the correct interpretation of the law to save your own skin then you are sorely mistaken. Not to mention your attempt to blackmail Tsunamy. Or is that your way of saying "I love you TSP."?

[Better Call Saul]

Get over yourself Belschaft. You committed treason and confessed to plotting against TSP. If you're really so arrogant as to believe you can warp and twist the correct interpretation of the law to save your own skin then you are sorely mistaken. Not to mention your attempt to blackmail Tsunamy. Or is that your way of saying "I love you TSP."?

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm not sure which African Dictatorship you come from in real life but Belschaft has never been found guilty in a court of law. Innocent until proven guilty good sir.

[Belschaft]

Get over yourself Belschaft. You committed treason and confessed to plotting against TSP. If you're really so arrogant as to believe you can warp and twist the correct interpretation of the law to save your own skin then you are sorely mistaken. Not to mention your attempt to blackmail Tsunamy. Or is that your way of saying "I love you TSP."?

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm not sure which African Dictatorship you come from in real life but Belschaft has never been found guilty in a court of law. Innocent until proven guilty good sir.

Hell, I haven't even been charged with a crime.

My defamation suit principally stemmed from people accusing me of treason but refusing to charge me; thus preventing me from being exonerated.

[Better Call Saul]

People play in the courts where they know they will win. Roger Federer plays on a tennis court. Kobe Bryant on a basketball court. I play on a law court but it would seem like your former friends play in the court of public opinion! It's quite tragic when the man sticks it to you and doesn't have good graces to go through a public trial.

This Unibot character seemed to have his whole media machine ready to go!

[The Church of Satan]

Your time will come eventually.

@Saul Knockoff: Ha! If you think Uni orders me around like that then you know very little.

[Evil Wolf]

Shameful behavior on the part of The South Pacific.

[Cormac Stark]

Shameful behavior on the part of The South Pacific.

Would it be "shameful" if they had done it to Unibot instead? It's hard to take the moral outrage seriously from the guy who led a witch hunt against defenders, in general, in The North Pacific for the actions of a very few.

I'm not sure I agree with it either, with some new factors coming up, but I think it's hard to argue that it's "shameful" for The South Pacific to appropriately use a legal tool given to the Cabinet by the Assembly, a legal tool Belschaft supported and sought to exploit until it was used on him. I'm sure some of those using it had political motives, but that was as Bel intended. He just didn't intend for it to be used on him.

[KaelThas Quilor]

I think the tool itself is shameful, to be honest. That sort of measure should be reserved for pornspammers, forum destroyers and people like Frak.

[Kringalia]

I think the tool itself is shameful, to be honest. That sort of measure should be reserved for pornspammers, forum destroyers and people like Frak.

OK, some things:
1. Pornspammers get an instant permaban from the forum, as per our mod policies. No trial or appeals.
2. We don't have a specific policy towards forum destroyers, and I would strongly argue against using citizenship removal on them.
3. Frak is a special case. I am not entirely familiar with how he left TSP, so I won't comment on that.

In the end, what we did is perfectly legal, and in accordance with what we saw as the best interests of the region. There is nothing shameful in that.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

I'm sure the political wheel of fortune will see Bel unbanned from TSP within 4-6 months or so.

[Kringalia]

I'm sure the political wheel of fortune will see Bel unbanned from TSP within 4-6 months or so.

Belschaft was not banned, his citizenship was removed. He remains completely free to have as many nations in the region as he wishes, and participate in our forum as frequently as he wants.

[Evil Wolf]

It's hard to take the moral outrage seriously from the guy who led a witch hunt against defenders, in general, in The North Pacific for the actions of a very few.

By "witch hunt" do you mean admitted and convicted Espionage executed by a high ranking member of the UDL?

At least Ravania got a trial which is more than can be said about Belschaft. I'd be willing to wager that someone doesn't think a trial would convict Belschaft of his alleged crimes, so they're taking the law into their own hands and playing the hangman.

[Common-Sense Politics]

I think the tool itself is shameful, to be honest. That sort of measure should be reserved for pornspammers, forum destroyers and people like Frak.

OK, some things:
1. Pornspammers get an instant permaban from the forum, as per our mod policies. No trial or appeals.
2. We don't have a specific policy towards forum destroyers, and I would strongly argue against using citizenship removal on them.
3. Frak is a special case. I am not entirely familiar with how he left TSP, so I won't comment on that.

In the end, what we did is perfectly legal, and in accordance with what we saw as the best interests of the region. There is nothing shameful in that.

Legal, sure. It should be fairly easy to see, however, that the device ultimately decided on in this case is going to invite far more speculation on the motivation(s) of the Cabinet than say, a fair and open trial would have. Perception and reality and all that business. In any event, the "security threat" rhetoric doesn't pass the eye test.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

I'm sure the political wheel of fortune will see Bel unbanned from TSP within 4-6 months or so.

Belschaft was not banned, his citizenship was removed. He remains completely free to have as many nations in the region as he wishes, and participate in our forum as frequently as he wants.

Is he free to continue the legal actions he had begun before the removal of his citizenship?

[Evil Wolf]

Belschaft was not banned, his citizenship was removed. He remains completely free to have as many nations in the region as he wishes, and participate in our forum as frequently as he wants.

Funny that you would allow as so called "security risk" to keep nations in your region and participate on your forums but not be a citizen.

If he was really such a risk, why would you allow him to do these things?

Perhaps it's because he's not so much a security risk as he is a political threat to some of the people who denied him the right of citizenship? Just my musings on the subject.

[Kringalia]

Is he free to continue the legal actions he had begun before the removal of his citizenship?

If he keeps a nation in the region, absolutely. Our Bill of Rights covers all residents, regardless of their citizenship status.

Funny that you would allow as so called "security risk" to keep nations in your region and participate on your forums but not be a citizen.

If he was really such a risk, why would you allow him to do these things?

Because: (a) the Cabinet only empowered to remove citizenship, not to prevent someone from otherwise participating in regional life. Our powers have a limit, and we respected that. (b) his security risk status had to do with his plot to manipulate elections. Removing his right to vote and run for office eliminated a great part of the risk. Fully removing him from the region would not to much of a difference.

Perhaps it's because he's not so much a security risk as he is a political threat to some of the people who denied him the right of citizenship? Just my musings on the subject.

We do not work like that in the South Pacific. The Government performs in strict adherence to the law, and affording all residents their due rights. Political issues are resolved through political means. Security issues are resolved through security means. Maybe some other regions let petty politics dominate serious decisions, but the South Pacific is not one of them.

The Assembly has already considered an appeal, and rejected it. The matter is settled.

[Cormac Stark]

It's unsurprising that the people who would have benefited most from the success of the subversive plot known as Operation Brave Toaster are so upset that Belschaft's citizenship has been removed. They've lost their champion, and their agent, in the Assembly of The South Pacific.

[Ambrella]

It's unsurprising that the people who would have benefited most from the success of the subversive plot known as Operation Brave Toaster are so upset that Belschaft's citizenship has been removed. They've lost their champion, and their agent, in the Assembly of The South Pacific.

I am fully convinced that Bels would have been found guilty if taken to court, and I believe that would have been the correct action in this case. Of course, he still could be, and I don't know why that hasn't happened.

[Cormac Stark]

I am fully convinced that Bels would have been found guilty if taken to court, and I believe that would have been the correct action in this case. Of course, he still could be, and I don't know why that hasn't happened.

Anyone who is fully convinced that someone, even the most obviously guilty person, will be found guilty in a Feeder court doesn't pay much attention to Feeder courts. Durk has still not been found guilty of any crime in The North Pacific, a region he has carried out coups against not once, but twice.

Court systems in NationStates are extremely dysfunctional except in a handful of regions. Court systems in Feeders and Sinkers are even worse than those found in most user-created regions.

As to why he can't be charged now, hasn't he left The South Pacific and is now beyond the Court's jurisdiction?

[BadNewsBarrett]

if you thought that only Bel was getting the schaft with citizenship, then I'm afraid I have some bad news.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

if you thought that only Bel was getting the schaft with citizenship, then I'm afraid I have some bad news.

How is this relevant? I'm not familiar with TSP's laws and procedures, but having read the thread it all seems above board.

[Cormac Stark]

if you thought that only Bel was getting the schaft with citizenship, then I'm afraid I have some bad news.

Neenee denied citizenship in a Feeder or Sinker is not exactly shocking to anyone. Whether you think she should have been denied or not, it's not even close to being on the same level as a former Delegate being stripped of citizenship.

[Belschaft]

I think a lot of people would have been interested in the current frantic, almost desperate, attempts by Unibot and Glen to write the crimes I've charged them with out of existence. Strange that.

[KaelThas Quilor]

I think the tool itself is shameful, to be honest. That sort of measure should be reserved for pornspammers, forum destroyers and people like Frak.

OK, some things:
1. Pornspammers get an instant permaban from the forum, as per our mod policies. No trial or appeals.
2. We don't have a specific policy towards forum destroyers, and I would strongly argue against using citizenship removal on them.
3. Frak is a special case. I am not entirely familiar with how he left TSP, so I won't comment on that.

In the end, what we did is perfectly legal, and in accordance with what we saw as the best interests of the region. There is nothing shameful in that.

I never said what you did in of itself was shameful. Nor that it was illegal.

What I said is that the capacity to simply eject someone from citizenship should be far more limited than it is, as a general precept.