The Rejected Times

[KaelThas Quilor]

Its taking it too seriously, Cormac, because the reason the community matters is because of the people in it. If you quit the community (and the people) over the WFE and the RMB, then you're taking the game too seriously - at the expense of the community.

[Sedgistan]

That said, those rules aren't coming back so what I would really prefer is for admins to get serious about technical improvements, and that is hardly too much to ask.

They are serious about technical improvements, and it'd be silly to claim otherwise. But the raider/defender game, despite TBR's tagging sprees, is still actually fairly minor (or even entirely irrelevant) to most players. An improvemed communications system benefits everyone; a better looking site helps draw people in and keep them browsing after the initial rush of creating a nation. For a lot of players, their actual nation page is their priority, and things like the refactoring are really important to them.

That's not to say that raider/defender related changes aren't important, or that they're not needed - neither is the case. But dismissing other changes is wrong.

Regarding the supposed "delay" to the summit changes, that's a misconception, and the misconception is my fault. Following the summit's demise, the admin instruction was to pick "one or two" changes which would be implemented. I took the lead on this, and (with input from others) ended up with seven changes, all of which I felt were necessary (I've since changed my mind on "Reformation SC proposals"). The admins agreed that they should and would be implemented, despite being far, far more than originally instructed, but cautioned that they would take a long time due to the number of changes and significance of them. I somewhat underestimated this, and failed to communicate it well with players.

Proposal Category System Creaking At The Seams?

My overall interest in the GA is low, but being one of the few "stats people" I'm actually quite interested in GA proposal categories. We do have some further changes planned - these were put on hold while Ard was away at the end of last year, but they're still going to happen (eventually - yes, I know). If players have suggestions for re-working categories, I'm more than willing to listen, and give input on their feasibility. If the discussion happens in the GA, someone just needs to let me know where, as I don't generally read that forum.

[The Dark Star Republic]

Proposal Category System Creaking At The Seams?

My overall interest in the GA is low, but being one of the few "stats people" I'm actually quite interested in GA proposal categories. We do have some further changes planned

And I don't suppose you would consider actually discussing these planned changes with players first? Or are they just going to be dumped on us like repeals, new categories, Commend/Condemn all were, none very successfully?

If players have suggestions for re-working categories, I'm more than willing to listen, and give input on their feasibility. If the discussion happens in the GA, someone just needs to let me know where, as I don't generally read that forum.

I'm sure players have many such suggestions. What I'm less sure about is that players see the point in making them, given the most active WA moderator describes herself as a "brick wall" and refuses to post in the WA forum, and even the most minor questions from players are ignored or take months to receive an answer.

[Sedgistan]

My overall interest in the GA is low, but being one of the few "stats people" I'm actually quite interested in GA proposal categories. We do have some further changes planned

And I don't suppose you would consider actually discussing these planned changes with players first? Or are they just going to be dumped on us like repeals, new categories, Commend/Condemn all were, none very successfully?

Can do, yes, though it's not necessary in all cases (e.g. stats fixes or changing little-used "Ban/Legalise" type categories to include things like "Tighten", "Promote" and "Relax" so there's more flexibility within them).

If players have suggestions for re-working categories, I'm more than willing to listen, and give input on their feasibility. If the discussion happens in the GA, someone just needs to let me know where, as I don't generally read that forum.

I'm sure players have many such suggestions. What I'm less sure about is that players see the point in making them, given the most active WA moderator describes herself as a "brick wall" and refuses to post in the WA forum, and even the most minor questions from players are ignored or take months to receive an answer.

I can't really comment on mod involvement within the GA forum, being one of those that doesn't read it. But yes, I (and others) are willing to listen to suggestions on categories.

[Cormac Stark]

Its taking it too seriously, Cormac, because the reason the community matters is because of the people in it. If you quit the community (and the people) over the WFE and the RMB, then you're taking the game too seriously - at the expense of the community.

I would actually argue that you're the one taking the game too seriously. Expecting players in a game to stick around after watching everything they've spent years building destroyed by raiders, who are only out for their own amusement and are sanctioned by site administration in doing so, is expecting too much.

They are serious about technical improvements, and it'd be silly to claim otherwise. But the raider/defender game, despite TBR's tagging sprees, is still actually fairly minor (or even entirely irrelevant) to most players. An improvemed communications system benefits everyone; a better looking site helps draw people in and keep them browsing after the initial rush of creating a nation. For a lot of players, their actual nation page is their priority, and things like the refactoring are really important to them.

That's not to say that raider/defender related changes aren't important, or that they're not needed - neither is the case. But dismissing other changes is wrong.

I'm not dismissing other changes. What I am saying is that site administration, since the creation of influence, has taken a hands-off approach to R/D gameplay that indicates they don't much care about the destructive effect raiding can have on communities. The lack of any significant technical changes to bring balance to R/D or better protect founderless communities since influence was created shows apathy toward what's going on.

Regarding the supposed "delay" to the summit changes, that's a misconception, and the misconception is my fault. Following the summit's demise, the admin instruction was to pick "one or two" changes which would be implemented. I took the lead on this, and (with input from others) ended up with seven changes, all of which I felt were necessary (I've since changed my mind on "Reformation SC proposals"). The admins agreed that they should and would be implemented, despite being far, far more than originally instructed, but cautioned that they would take a long time due to the number of changes and significance of them. I somewhat underestimated this, and failed to communicate it well with players.

I can understand and appreciate that, but regardless of who was at fault for the miscommunication, it is, frankly, only [violet]'s fault that zero significant technical attention has been paid to bringing more balance to R/D since the creation of influence. There should have been changes in the works years before the summit, which would have made the summit unnecessary in the first place. There should, in fact, have been technical balance brought to R/D before admins yanked away the griefing rules and left founderless communities to deal with the consequences. To be blunt: [violet] has been negligent for years in regard to the R/D game and the game and communities in it are suffering for that negligence.

Nonetheless, I appreciate you commenting on these issues, Sedge.

[Zaolat]

Its taking it too seriously, Cormac, because the reason the community matters is because of the people in it. If you quit the community (and the people) over the WFE and the RMB, then you're taking the game too seriously - at the expense of the community.

I would actually argue that you're the one taking the game too seriously. Expecting players in a game to stick around after watching everything they've spent years building destroyed by raiders, who are only out for their own amusement and are sanctioned by site administration in doing so, is expecting too much.

Who is to say that's true? You may be over-inflating something to make it seem to be a BIG problem, likewise the opposites will say it does nearly nothing overall ignoring or not caring negative effects do happen.

Can you cite hard statistical evidence to back that many people uninvolved are leaving the game en masse for every raid that happens? I'm definitely sure some do leave permanently or temporarily, but I can't fathom multitudes. You can argue just one leaving is bad enough, but overall that becomes trivial is the numbers aren't that large as some of us are expected to believe by the rhetoric of your current side. Then factoring returns, which not all may have come from raid victims, and new members will keep a balance.

Can a mod or admin give an idea if raiding really is so much a problem that victims of them leave the game en masse permanently? or whatever negative equivalent that's portrayed by the anti-raider side? Just an idea of approximation, 100% hard data not required if it cannot be given.

[The Dark Star Republic]

Can do, yes, though it's not necessary in all cases (e.g. stats fixes or changing little-used "Ban/Legalise" type categories to include things like "Tighten", "Promote" and "Relax" so there's more flexibility within them).

That's a perfect example: that Gun Control ruling threw us for a loop, yet it was then never explained or expanded on, meaning the whole thing has become completely inscrutable.

I can't really comment on mod involvement within the GA forum, being one of those that doesn't read it.

Yes, we've noticed that the mods don't read the forum: I think the point is that we'd like them to, not that we'd like to work around that inconvenience.

But yes, I (and others) are willing to listen to suggestions on categories.

Great. This is literally the most positive post by a moderator I've read in connection with the WA in a year and a half!!

[KaelThas Quilor]

Its taking it too seriously, Cormac, because the reason the community matters is because of the people in it. If you quit the community (and the people) over the WFE and the RMB, then you're taking the game too seriously - at the expense of the community.

I would actually argue that you're the one taking the game too seriously. Expecting players in a game to stick around after watching everything they've spent years building destroyed by raiders, who are only out for their own amusement and are sanctioned by site administration in doing so, is expecting too much.

Because leaving the friends that make the community meaningful over a raid is totally a proportional response.

[The Stalker]

Maybe not, but it happens often. I've lost many friends in regions who left over a raid, getting ejected or what have you. To most it's a game, and they quit playing the game when it no longer fun for them...

[KaelThas Quilor]

Then they weren't real or close friends. They were casual interactions at best.

[Revall]

Then they weren't real or close friends. They were casual interactions at best.

Tend to agree the friends who I am truly close to it seems we end up in at least one common region if not more.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Then they weren't real or close friends. They were casual interactions at best.

In a way I guess it is accurate to allow ones who destroy such relationships to evaluate their strength.

[KaelThas Quilor]

We don't destroy friendships to test their strength. People destroy their own friendships if they're weak ones.

[Common-Sense Politics]

Then they weren't real or close friends. They were casual interactions at best.

In a way I guess it is accurate to allow ones who destroy such relationships to evaluate their strength.

Are we taking control of a delegacy in an online game or fucking someone's sister here? Seriously.

[Misley]

Some people play this game seriously. Probably anyone who reads this forum plays it seriously enough to give a damn about the words people put up on here.

Some people, though, play the game more casually. Are their communities less worthy just because they don't have super-tight bonds and off-site forums to keep the sense of community separate from the actual community that inhabits the region that exists on this website?

[Sedgistan]

I'm not dismissing other changes. What I am saying is that site administration, since the creation of influence, has taken a hands-off approach to R/D gameplay that indicates they don't much care about the destructive effect raiding can have on communities. The lack of any significant technical changes to bring balance to R/D or better protect founderless communities since influence was created shows apathy toward what's going on.

Well that's just wrong. Liberations were an extremely significant change in that area - they've had a massive impact on R/D. And that's far from the only R/D change since Liberations - examples up to 2011 here. Violet's also put a massive amount of time into two of the Summit changes (Regional Officers, Delegate Elect) -- they're also the two biggest changes (hence why they need to come first, to save re-writing code). It's a line we say a lot, but it's still valid - site staff are unpaid volunteers, not full-time or paid workers. Given that, the amount of time I've seen Violet put into the site (including R/D related matters) is stupendous.

I can't really comment on mod involvement within the GA forum, being one of those that doesn't read it.

Yes, we've noticed that the mods don't read the forum: I think the point is that we'd like them to, not that we'd like to work around that inconvenience.

Some mods do read the GA. Obviously not all do. The same applies to every forum - the GA's not a special case. I know you'd like to see more mods active in the GA - as has probably been said before, do feel free to send us nominations if you think there are players we should be considering as potential mods.

[Evil Wolf]

We're inclined to believe that due to the inactivity of Lone Wolves United. So it is confirmed that the attack was orchestrated by perhaps the very last active soldier in LWU.

>So it is confirmed that the attack was orchestrated by perhaps the very last active soldier in LWU.<

>>perhaps the very last active soldier in LWU<<

>>>last active soldier in LWU<<<

>>>>active soldier in LWU<<<<

[KaelThas Quilor]

Some people play this game seriously. Probably anyone who reads this forum plays it seriously enough to give a damn about the words people put up on here.

Some people, though, play the game more casually. Are their communities less worthy just because they don't have super-tight bonds and off-site forums to keep the sense of community separate from the actual community that inhabits the region that exists on this website?

A close friendship and a real sense of community can exist without an offsite forum or even other offsite means (Skype, etc)

[Misley]

Some people play this game seriously. Probably anyone who reads this forum plays it seriously enough to give a damn about the words people put up on here.

Some people, though, play the game more casually. Are their communities less worthy just because they don't have super-tight bonds and off-site forums to keep the sense of community separate from the actual community that inhabits the region that exists on this website?

A close friendship and a real sense of community can exist without an offsite forum or even other offsite means (Skype, etc)

Yes, but that still requires offsite networking and communication, which is more than casual players are going to put into this game. I'm talking about people who come along, answer issues every now and then, and post to the RMB every so often. They are still part of their regional community, are they not?

[KaelThas Quilor]

Not really. Not the community.

There's also this lovely thing called Telegrams.

[The Church of Satan]

For some reason EW that makes me both smile AND chuckle.

[RiderSyl]

If raids really were as effective at making people quit the game as the bullshit in this thread is implying, then raiders would actually be using that as a tactic against people that they don't want to play the game anymore.

Stop dramatizing raiding.

[Guy]

I'm not dismissing other changes. What I am saying is that site administration, since the creation of influence, has taken a hands-off approach to R/D gameplay that indicates they don't much care about the destructive effect raiding can have on communities. The lack of any significant technical changes to bring balance to R/D or better protect founderless communities since influence was created shows apathy toward what's going on.

Well that's just wrong. Liberations were an extremely significant change in that area - they've had a massive impact on R/D. And that's far from the only R/D change since Liberations - examples up to 2011 here. Violet's also put a massive amount of time into two of the Summit changes (Regional Officers, Delegate Elect) -- they're also the two biggest changes (hence why they need to come first, to save re-writing code). It's a line we say a lot, but it's still valid - site staff are unpaid volunteers, not full-time or paid workers. Given that, the amount of time I've seen Violet put into the site (including R/D related matters) is stupendous.

Wait, so they website doesn't make a profit?

[Chester Pearson]

Well that's just wrong. Liberations were an extremely significant change in that area - they've had a massive impact on R/D. And that's far from the only R/D change since Liberations - examples up to 2011 here. Violet's also put a massive amount of time into two of the Summit changes (Regional Officers, Delegate Elect) -- they're also the two biggest changes (hence why they need to come first, to save re-writing code). It's a line we say a lot, but it's still valid - site staff are unpaid volunteers, not full-time or paid workers. Given that, the amount of time I've seen Violet put into the site (including R/D related matters) is stupendous.

Wait, so they website doesn't make a profit?

Pretty sure it doesn't lose a lot.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Even if it does, the profit would go to Max Barry. I imagine that it doesn't, however. Stamp purchases go to server space for all the new telegrams people are sending.

@Chester: Breaking even or almost =/= profit.