The Rejected Times

[Glen-Rhodes]

Call me McCarthy all you want. We all know the kind of player NES is. Nobody here thinks he's an innocent little flower-child, who would never ever rile up his ideological allies in an attempt to screw over his arch-enemies. NES (and Krakeoptia, and the rest of the Euro establishment that went along with the scheme) was willing to put long-term TSP-Euro relations on the line, asking for something they knew TSP couldn't provide, in a feeble attempt to stick it to two elected defenders in TSP. (One of whom -- me -- wasn't planning on running for reelection anyways.)

What's hilarious is how it totally blew up in their face. An alliance that was forgotten throughout most of 2014 became the center of TSP's political universe, for negative reasons, and now there's a large chunk of TSP's political elite who are soured on Euro, NES, and the whole Independent-imperialist sphere. If TSP would have attended the Independence Conference, there's a pretty good chance that we would be seeing a resurgence in Independence-minded politicians seizing the diplomatic dividends and re-introducing ideological Independence in TSP.

As for me not being transparent about where I got my information, that does not make me a McCarthyist. TSP's Senior Cabinet knows where my information comes from. At least two current Senior Cabinet members were in the Senior Cabinet during the crisis and have first-hand knowledge of the back room machinations that were going on. I'm not going to blabber about my sources, because yes this specific information is confidential (by law in TSP), but also because I'm not an idiot.

[KaelThas Quilor]

There is no 'Euro Establishment', Glen, and even if there was, Krake wouldn't be part of it (No offense to the man, he's an excellent player and a great guy), but he's simply too new to be part of the mythical 'Euro Establishment' that people talk about on and off in here, usually as part and parcel with conspiracy theories.

Europeia is a region of powerful personalities constantly on conflict with eachother for position and power as well as prestige. There are certain rules and norms we all agree to on that competition, but to act as though there's some unified master cabal 'establishment' would be inaccurate. Europeian Foreign policy has lurched over its history, and will do so in the future. What stops it from lurching wildly is the fact that Europeia doesn't attract defender-minded people for a number of reasons, and so it doesn't experience the back and forth that some GCRs will sometimes have (for example, as GCRs are the best example of regions attracting from many factions and ideological propositions).

[Onderkelkia]

We all know the kind of player NES is. Nobody here thinks he's an innocent little flower-child, who would never ever rile up his ideological allies in an attempt to screw over his arch-enemies.

This is a targeted personal attack based on insinuation and caricature.

You have yet to provide the slightest evidence that he had input into Europeia's decision on this matter, which he has denied.

Even if he had input in it (which I see no reason to believe), there wouldn't be anything wrong with a senior Europeian official offering advice to Europeia.

What's hilarious is how it totally blew up in their face. An alliance that was forgotten throughout most of 2014 became the center of TSP's political universe, for negative reasons, and now there's a large chunk of TSP's political elite who are soured on Euro, NES, and the whole Independent-imperialist sphere.

That depends on your perspective. Some might say that The South Pacific's conduct over that and previous incidents was deeply unprofessional, and that the reaction of some in TSP (although admittedly not all) has only reinforced that image. Your principal concern is clearly influencing domestic TSP opinion.

As for me not being transparent about where I got my information, that does not make me a McCarthyist. TSP's Senior Cabinet knows where my information comes from. At least two current Senior Cabinet members were in the Senior Cabinet during the crisis and have first-hand knowledge of the back room machinations that were going on. I'm not going to blabber about my sources, because yes this specific information is confidential (by law in TSP), but also because I'm not an idiot.

With this kind of issue, if you can't make the evidence public, then you don't make public allegations.

You would be strenuously complaining if the situation was reversed and NES made an allegation made against you, which you vehemently denied, which NES expected everyone to believe on the basis that he had shared the evidence with a couple of senior cabinet members in Europeia. You'd never tolerate that.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Could you start putting anchors in issue posts so readers can jump to specific articles?

[Glen-Rhodes]

Your principal concern is clearly influencing domestic TSP opinion.

Given I am a citizen and dedicate all of my time in NS to TSP, I'm not sure why you're saying this with a negative connotation.

With this kind of issue, if you can't make the evidence public, then you don't make public allegations.

My concern with NES is limited to his presence in TSP. What I've been told, and what I know myself to be true, has been shared with the relevant people in TSP. I'm not looking to litigate this in the court of public opinion. Those who don't like NES already believe what I've said, and those who do like NES aren't going to be convinced of anything. So while I will continue to besmirch NES' trustworthiness, I'm not going to bother burning people I like and breaking confidentiality just to engage in an NS Gameplay forum trial that won't have any real consequences.

If NES had some kind of incriminating evidence, of whatever conspiracy he would believe about me, he's free to share it. I've already dealt with public conspiracies naming me as their subject, so we know exactly how I would react to them. My actions tend to serve as my responses.

[KaelThas Quilor]

If NES had some kind of incriminating evidence, of whatever conspiracy he would believe about me, he's free to share it. I've already dealt with public conspiracies naming me as their subject, so we know exactly how I would react to them. My actions tend to serve as my responses.

Onder was speaking in the theoretical, about the issues of making claims you're unwilling to publicly support (regardless of the reasons, which in this case, are arguably goodish reasons) with evidence.

Also, I like NES well enough, but I can certainly believe the man could be up to a given arguably nefarious action, if presented with evidence. I may not always draw the same conclusions about NES as a person from such evidence, but that's not the point. Its not just a matter of liking or not liking the man, as I'm sure there are people who don't like NES that aren't believing your accusations.

[Onderkelkia]

Your principal concern is clearly influencing domestic TSP opinion.

Given I am a citizen and dedicate all of my time in NS to TSP, I'm not sure why you're saying this with a negative connotation.

The two implications of my point are:

1. The reason why you are throwing these allegations about, without offering any evidence, is to gain an advantage in internal TSP politics.

2. There is no reason why Europeia's priority should be domestic TSP opinion. Your analysis that it 'blew up in their face' depends on that.

It's apparent that your real enemy here are those in TSP who have concerns about your agenda for the region.

With this kind of issue, if you can't make the evidence public, then you don't make public allegations.

My concern with NES is limited to his presence in TSP. What I've been told, and what I know myself to be true, has been shared with the relevant people in TSP. I'm not looking to litigate this in the court of public opinion. Those who don't like NES already believe what I've said, and those who do like NES aren't going to be convinced of anything. So while I will continue to besmirch NES' trustworthiness, I'm not going to bother burning people I like and breaking confidentiality just to engage in an NS Gameplay forum trial that won't have any real consequences.

If you don't care about "the court of public opinion" or " an NS Gameplay forum trial", then don't make public allegations in the NS Gameplay forum.

If there actually is a source, then deciding to reveal what has happened publicly at all here, for something you don't care about at all, is bad for them.

It is simply unfair to make public allegations if you are not prepared to produce the evidential basis and instead wish to rely on personal insinuations.

If NES had some kind of incriminating evidence, of whatever conspiracy he would believe about me, he's free to share it. I've already dealt with public conspiracies naming me as their subject, so we know exactly how I would react to them. My actions tend to serve as my responses.

It's a purely hypothetical scenario: namely, would you not object if NES made allegations against you and said people should believe it because the evidence has been deposited with two senior members of Europeian Cabinet? You would be strenuously objecting if the situation were reversed in such a way.

As it happens, your actions up to this point have been ranged from the unprofessional to the ridiculous.

[KaelThas Quilor]

I'm not sure. Glen has been ridiculous (that's not quite new), but he's almost always largely professional.

[Cormac Stark]

There is no 'Euro Establishment', Glen

The best part is I think most of you even believe your own bullshit.

and even if there was, Krake wouldn't be part of it (No offense to the man, he's an excellent player and a great guy), but he's simply too new to be part of the mythical 'Euro Establishment' that people talk about on and off in here, usually as part and parcel with conspiracy theories.

Indeed, too new to be part of the establishment. He instead served as puppet, yes man, and mouthpiece of the Europeian establishment in hopes of one day becoming part of it. He probably has begun to by now, given that he's becoming a nearly permanent fixture in your government. But nobody outside your universe and its titanium reinforced bubble of make-believe actually believes that Europeia has no establishment and that the establishment wasn't pushing for confrontation with The South Pacific.

What stops it from lurching wildly is the fact that Europeia doesn't attract defender-minded people for a number of reasons

Perhaps because Europeia, the land of peace, freedom, and equality (hi HEM!) responds to dissent, criticism, and exercise of free press with persona non grata declarations and three full pages of vitriol in which you call your detractors "scum," "fanatics," and "slack-jawed dimwits." Tends to be a turn-off for us scummy dimwits.

[Onderkelkia]

I'm not sure. Glen has been ridiculous (that's not quite new), but he's almost always largely professional.

On the contrary, his handling of TSP's diplomatic relations with Europeia (and for that matter TNI) was amateurish - unless of course it was deliberate.

He instead served as puppet, yes man, and mouthpiece of the Europeian establishment in hopes of one day becoming part of it. He probably has begun to by now, given that he's becoming a nearly permanent fixture in your government.

I am not sure what Kraketopia has done to warrant this abuse - if he is a 'fixture', which is a matter of opinion, it is because he's highly competent.

[KaelThas Quilor]

I didn't say defenders don't have legitimate reasons to avoid Europeia. Though defenders have earned the reaction Europeians have towards them.


As a man who has actually been in the inner circles of Europeian power, and I can assure you, there is no establishment. I'm not the one who is calling raiding evil every time he's a defender and then calling raiding okay when he's a raider/independent/whatever he is this week. You live in the strange bubble of make believe. I, however, live in a world of complexities, multifaceted realities and multiple colors between black and white.

Europeia has old established players, but old established players an 'establishment' do not make. To call the existence of such people an establishment is ascribing a monolithic cast to them that does not exist.

Europeia gave you persona non grata status because you constantly change sides and because you talk shit about Europeia you demonstrably know to be false. Moreover, your constant harping on the motto as if it is inaccurate is both very old and just as inaccurate as it was the first time you said it.

Krake is a very competent and very active player. Europeian government has to react to the same problems any regional government does -manpower skillsets and manpower availability. For example, had I been around the last many months and been an active ERN officer, its possible that I may have been filling one of his stints as Grand Admiral now or in the recent past. Same with other potential people (I may not have filled such slots, but having served as GA and an active ERN operations leader several times, I'm certainly capable of filling the slot, which is the point). To say the government as 'fixtures' is again misrepresenting what is a normal component of NS life.

[Cormac Stark]

I didn't say defenders don't have legitimate reasons to avoid Europeia. Though defenders have earned the reaction Europeians have towards them.

Nobody has earned being called scum and slack-jawed dimwits, insults you take off-site because you'd be warned for flaming for them here. No wonder the gameplayer elitists who comprise Europeia are so obsessed with off-site forum communities, they allow you to create exactly the kind of poisonous and toxic gameplay environment I referenced in my retirement post, an environment that would not be tolerated on-site.

Aside from misrepresenting itself to appear to be something it isn't, Europeia, as a community, prides itself on how condescending it is toward those who don't agree with Europeian "values" and how mean-spirited its politics are toward those who don't toe the line. Why any region besides your natural allies -- those who think and behave just like you -- would maintain an alliance with you, I have no idea.

[Onderkelkia]

I didn't say defenders don't have legitimate reasons to avoid Europeia. Though defenders have earned the reaction Europeians have towards them.

Nobody has earned being called scum and slack-jawed dimwits, insults you take off-site because you'd be warned for flaming for them here. No wonder the gameplayer elitists who comprise Europeia are so obsessed with off-site forum communities, they allow you to create exactly the kind of poisonous and toxic gameplay environment I referenced in my retirement post, an environment that would not be tolerated on-site.

You're referring to 2 posts by 2 individuals, out of a thread in which 26 people posted in and 43 posts were made.

It's nothing to do with 'gameplayer elitists'.

I agree that those two terms are distasteful, but they are hardly representative. Nearly all regions police off-site forums less stringently than the NS site.

[Cormac Stark]

You're referring to 2 posts by 2 individuals, out of a thread in which 26 people posted in and 43 posts were made.

It's nothing to do with 'gameplayer elitists'.

I agree that those two terms are distasteful, but they are hardly representative. Nearly all regions police off-site forums less stringently than the NS site.

Yes, I recall Europeia's lax policing when Earth -- also PNG as a threat to Europeian values at the time -- was called even worse things in 2012.

26 people posted and not one had anything to say about those distasteful terms, Onder. Either those terms are in fact representative of the community or the community is either too indifferent to the use of such distasteful insults or so afraid of those hurling them that they won't speak up against them. Either way, Europeia's not looking good here.

[KaelThas Quilor]

I didn't say defenders don't have legitimate reasons to avoid Europeia. Though defenders have earned the reaction Europeians have towards them.

Nobody has earned being called scum and slack-jawed dimwits, insults you take off-site because you'd be warned for flaming for them here. No wonder the gameplayer elitists who comprise Europeia are so obsessed with off-site forum communities, they allow you to create exactly the kind of poisonous and toxic gameplay environment I referenced in my retirement post, an environment that would not be tolerated on-site.

First of all, those things were said on the Europeia forums because that was where the germane conversation came up. Moreover, Europeia has been called worse, as have people in Europeia who engage in raiding. This is not to make it okay, simply to say that it is. I did not say that calling people scum and slack-jawed dimwits is alright. I merely said it was earned - because defender behavior has directly led to the way most people in Europeia think about defenders. Describing a causal relationship is not endorsing it.

Aside from misrepresenting itself to appear to be something it isn't, Europeia, as a community, prides itself on how condescending it is toward those who don't agree with Europeian "values" and how mean-spirited its politics are toward those who don't toe the line. Why any region besides your natural allies -- those who think and behave just like you -- would maintain an alliance with you, I have no idea.

Europeia's motto doesn't misrepresent Europeia unless you completely misrepresent the motto itself. It is not the land that spreads peace freedom and equality. It is the land of peace freedom and equality.

Moreover, every region has people who criticize those who, in your terms, don't toe the line. Overtime, Europeia has built up a consensus. When consensuses get built, the people endorsing said consensus tend to defend the consensus to people who oppose it. Europeia doing that is no stranger than if the NPO did it if someone started proposing changes to the NPO consensus (etc). I use NPO as an example off the top of my head, for what that's worth.

That you have no idea doesn't mean much - you are a man who has shown difficulty in stepping outside of whatever set of opinions you're operating from in a given month. This is not to say you're stupid, merely that you tend to box yourself in. Other regions do not have the distorted opinion of Europeia that you do (well, some do, but not the ones that maintain alliances with us). Europeia does not condescend to other regions that don't share our 'values'. We do tend to think that our values are good values to have, but that's kind of the nature of, you know, having values.

And if Europeia really is as condescending as you say, to people that don't agree with them, then by your logic, you are a natural ally of Europeia, because you behave just like that somewhere between half the time and two thirds of the time, as far as I can tell.

26 people posted and not one had anything to say about those distasteful terms, Onder. Either those terms are in fact representative of the community or the community is either too indifferent to the use of such distasteful insults or so afraid of those hurling them that they won't speak up against them. Either way, Europeia's not looking good here.

1.) Europeia and Europeians have been called worse
2.) Those are distasteful, but hardly over the top things to call other people
3.) Its not the obligation of every thread poster to call out every distasteful comment they see, else just about every thread in history would become bogged down.

[Kringalia]

On the contrary, his handling of TSP's diplomatic relations with Europeia (and for that matter TNI) was amateurish - unless of course it was deliberate.

If so, then Europeia's handling of the situation was equally (if not more) distressful and unprofessional. Let me point out just one more time the curiousness of accusing us of not being sufficiently Independent, in a crisis that involved our attendance to a conference meant to define the very meaning of Independence. Not to mention that ultimatum that wanted to force us to choose one ally over another. Let's admit once and for all that Europeia mistreated us. Plain and simple.

[Misley]

The "slack-jawed dimwits" comment wasn't targeted at defenders, Cerian, and it was not "earned" any more than another certain high-profile player "earned" the shit that was slung at them.

[KaelThas Quilor]

One side doesn't have to be more accurate that the other, Kringala. I wasn't around, I don't know what happened, but both sides in a dispute can feel legitimately aggrieved without one side being incorrect about being aggrieved. It takes two to argue, it takes two to have an interregional crisis.

In most interregional disputes, both regions have legitimate reasons to feel aggrieved. Where the problem emerges is that both regions tend to have ways of looking at the situation that self-denies the other side's legitmate reasons because people tend to have the perspectives of the involved when they're...you know, involved in a given situation.

[KaelThas Quilor]

The "slack-jawed dimwits" comment wasn't targeted at defenders, Cerian, and it was not "earned" any more than another certain high-profile player "earned" the shit that was slung at them.

The context in which Cormac was talking was of Europeia and defenders. Forgive me for him not being clear. However, negative responses are usually earned. I've certainly earned just about every negative comment made about me by just about anyone. Having bad things said about you is far from the worst reaction you can get, and if 'slack-jawed dimwits' and 'scum' is slinging shit, then I'd hate to see what you call worse commentary.

[Onderkelkia]

You're referring to 2 posts by 2 individuals, out of a thread in which 26 people posted in and 43 posts were made.

It's nothing to do with 'gameplayer elitists'.

I agree that those two terms are distasteful, but they are hardly representative. Nearly all regions police off-site forums less stringently than the NS site.

Yes, I recall Europeia's lax policing when Earth -- also PNG as a threat to Europeian values at the time -- was called even worse things in 2012.

Europeia's policing is no more 'lax' than the overwhelming majority of off-site forums - in some respects it might be regarded as tighter.

I'm pretty certain if the NS forum had no rules, there would be far worse insults - and more of them - thrown about here than those in that thread.

I'm not familiar with the comments you refer to against Earth in 2012, so I am not in a position to judge in relation to them.

26 people posted and not one had anything to say about those distasteful terms, Onder. Either those terms are in fact representative of the community or the community is either too indifferent to the use of such distasteful insults or so afraid of those hurling them that they won't speak up against them. Either way, Europeia's not looking good here.

This is a very simplistic view.

The idea that every one of those 26 people had read and processed all 43 posts in that thread, to detect the presence of those 2 terms (in what is fast-moving thread of replies under an announcement), is clearly nonsense. I myself was unaware of the insults concerned until you drew attention to them here.

Additionally, even for those who did notice, omitting to post an objection is entirely distinct from being indifferent about the terms used.

On the contrary, his handling of TSP's diplomatic relations with Europeia (and for that matter TNI) was amateurish - unless of course it was deliberate.

If so, then Europeia's handling of the situation was equally (if not more) distressful and unprofessional. Let me point out just one more time the curiousness of accusing us of not being sufficiently Independent, in a crisis that involved our attendance to a conference meant to define the very meaning of Independence. Not to mention that ultimatum that wanted to force us to choose one ally over another. Let's admit once and for all that Europeia mistreated us. Plain and simple.

On the contrary, it was entirely reasonable and appropriate to question your government's commitment to Independence when it opted to attend the Regional Sovereignty Conference - especially with the benefit of hindsight, as we now know for a fact, from the 'Sovereigntism' announcement, the Delegate of Lazarus was seeking to promote an ideology opposed to Independence - when it was meant to be co-hosting The Independence Convention.

Europeia did not mis-treat TSP at all.

[Solorni]

While I will say that Europeian leadership does tolerate and sometimes encourages and participates in rather offensive language, that the region as a whole is not some sort of GRA type region. Generally the region is pleasant and most members can generally move past differences and harsh words. Kraketopia is no puppet nor yes man or anything else you can come up with. Becoming President is generally a difficult task and while not all Presidents were created equally it would be incredibly difficult for simply a puppet to become President twice.

[King HEM]

Tends to be a turn-off for us scummy dimwits.

You said it, not me.

Nobody has earned being called scum and slack-jawed dimwits, insults you take off-site because you'd be warned for flaming for them here. No wonder the gameplayer elitists who comprise Europeia are so obsessed with off-site forum communities, they allow you to create exactly the kind of poisonous and toxic gameplay environment I referenced in my retirement post, an environment that would not be tolerated on-site.

Oh Jesus weeps. Let me just say that a discussion on insulting rhetoric in R/D debates may not be to your advantage.

I'm just gonna let y'all be convinced by G-R that there is some powerful "euro establishment". That makes us sound much more powerful and sexy than the truth: that Lethen, NES (to give an example) and I can't agree on what breakfast cereal is best, much less major DoPo or FoPo issues.

[Seven Deaths]

Nobody has earned being called scum and slack-jawed dimwits, insults you take off-site because you'd be warned for flaming for them here. No wonder the gameplayer elitists who comprise Europeia are so obsessed with off-site forum communities, they allow you to create exactly the kind of poisonous and toxic gameplay environment I referenced in my retirement post, an environment that would not be tolerated on-site.

Can't we agree that Raiders don't like Defenders, Defenders don't like Raiders and that we all say horrible terrible things about the other side? I mean, that's generally what happens when two groups of people butt heads on a daily basis.

I mean, back during the Coca-Cola and Pepsi war of '07, I was being consistently called a coke head. Which is unfair, because I've never done drugs.

[Lethen]

That makes us sound much more powerful and sexy than the truth: that Lethen, NES (to give an example) and I can't agree on what breakfast cereal is best, much less major DoPo or FoPo issues.

Wait wait wait. Wait a minute. Wait just a second. Hold it, hold it, HOLD IT.

Since when did I join the Establishment?

[Ninja Kittens]

That makes us sound much more powerful and sexy than the truth: that Lethen, NES (to give an example) and I can't agree on what breakfast cereal is best, much less major DoPo or FoPo issues.

Wait wait wait. Wait a minute. Wait just a second. Hold it, hold it, HOLD IT.

Since when did I join the Establishment?

You are the establishment, Lethen. There's no point in fighting it. Go be mysterious and ubiquitous and suppress all those who dare speak out against you.