The Rejected Times

[Onderkelkia]

You referred, prior to your exposure, to several aspects of LKE history and UIAF history which you knew as Cormac. The idea you can legitimately claim a cloak is absurd. In any case, I don't accept notions of duality, but it is entirely inaccurate to suggest I have been routinely referencing your past actions.

I didn't say you had routinely done it; I said you've done it before this discussion, and you have. And I am no longer claiming duality, so let's move on.

If you say that "you've been calling me Cormac and making reference to past actions well before I dropped duality", there is an implication in that I raised it more than once, and I stand by the reference to "Cormac's article" as entirely appropriate and natural, in referring to an article by its author's name.

As I say, given you used information you knew as Cormac while arguing as Rainbow, you were in no position to claim duality, even if I thought it valid.

[RiderSyl]

I also really don't need criticism on the subject of strange retirements and returns from Syl, the retired, un-retired forum destroyer.

I know I caught you in the middle of a heated argument, so I'm not going to take that personally.

Gonna have to say though... I only criticized how involved you're getting in gameplay after you declared you would avoid it. I tried and failed at retiring, just like you did, yeah, but I'm not criticizing your retirement, silly, so that doesn't matter.

Also, My fuck-up has absolutely nada to do with what we're talking about here, but since you decided to bring it up, wasn't one of your last controversies before you retired because you were extremely lenient on a forum destroyer while you were Pharaoh of Osiris?

[Glen-Rhodes]

I have no idea what NES said within Europeia or if he had any role in it, but if so, it would have been as a high-ranking and long-standing Europeian official.

Interesting that NES disavows being any such thing when confronted with his role in trying to upend the TSP-Euro alliance.

You say you 'spoke to people outside of Europeiean government'. How would they know what was being said inside the Europeian Government?

Because Europeia is not an isolated region and there is plenty of overlap not only within its government, but simply within its influential population. Nobody in this game would believe for a second that the high-profile Independent-imperialist players (like NES) had no role at all in manufacturing that crisis. Europeia's entire stated reason, not only privately to TSP, but also publicly in their statements, was that other conference attendees (and how many signature lines are duplicates in that ridiculous manifesto, hm?) wanted to push TSP and force us into a corner.

[Onderkelkia]

I have no idea what NES said within Europeia or if he had any role in it, but if so, it would have been as a high-ranking and long-standing Europeian official.

Interesting that NES disavows being any such thing when confronted with his role in trying to upend the TSP-Euro alliance.

First, you're incorrect. All NES denies denies there is having been a member of the Europeian Government at the time (i.e. actually holding a ministerial position). That is to be distinguished from his official capacity as a Director of the Europeian Intelligence Agency, which is separate from the Government.

Second, as I made clear, "I have no idea what NES said within Europeia or if he had any role in it." So he might not have participated in any capacity. In any case, if he did, his input will have been offered in his capacity in Europeia and certainly was not on behalf of either the LKE or TNI, officially or unofficially.

You say you 'spoke to people outside of Europeiean government'. How would they know what was being said inside the Europeian Government?

Because Europeia is not an isolated region and there is plenty of overlap not only within its government, but simply within its influential population. Nobody in this game would believe for a second that the high-profile Independent-imperialist players (like NES) had no role at all in manufacturing that crisis.

Basically, you haven't got a clue what specific discussions occurred, but point to the presence of NES in Europeia and say he just must have (1) had a role in the decision and (2) if he had a role, played a part on behalf of the Imperialist sphere, rather than playing a part as a long-standing member of Europeia.

What the speculation your proffering amounts to is no more of a substantive argument than people pointing to the presence of Unibot and you in TSP, and assuming you have followed an idealistic defender agenda when influencing TSP foreign policy, rather than seeking to serve TSP's interests. Of course, some might argue that there is stronger evidence of such an agenda, beyond your mere presence, but let's say that is just your mere presence in contention.

You've always presented such allegations as baseless - so on what basis do you turn around and make allegations against NES on far more spurious grounds?

You keep saying players "like NES" but I've already shown that, other than HEM, NES is the only LKE/TNI official with any kind of relevant role in Europeia.

Europeia's entire stated reason, not only privately to TSP, but also publicly in their statements, was that other conference attendees [...] wanted to push TSP and force us into a corner.

To claim that formed part of Europeia's reasoning in their public statements is total rubbish - as a cursory read of their statement establishes.

Europeia's "stated reason" was that TSP's actions "made the initial plans for our Independence convention impossible". You can agree or disagree with that assessment, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the other attendees. I don't believe that the LKE, TNI and Albion had even been invited at that stage.

(and how many signature lines are duplicates in that ridiculous manifesto, hm?)

There's nothing ridiculous about the Independent Manifesto, although it is obvious that you detest it to the point of finding the very idea of it unbearable.

15 different people signed in total (representatives of Europeia, Balder, Osiris, the LKE, Equilism, TNP, TNI, Albion, TWP and Ainur).

3 of those 15 individuals signed for two regions: I sign for the LKE and TNI, NES signs for Europeia and Balder, and Cerebella signs for TNI and Albion.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Onder, I was told quite explicitly that NES was trying to cause trouble, by those who are aligned with the Independent-imperialist sphere but thought his type of confrontational agenda would only push us away from them. (No surprise there, of course.) You can protect him all you want, but I don't think anybody in this game would expect anything less from him.

[Cormac Stark]

Onder, I was told quite explicitly that NES was trying to cause trouble, by those who are aligned with the Independent-imperialist sphere but thought his type of confrontational agenda would only push us away from them. (No surprise there, of course.) You can protect him all you want, but I don't think anybody in this game would expect anything less from him.

As Onder has surmised without me saying so, which is telling by itself, NES was the one who advised me days before I was elected Pharaoh in July not to give The South Pacific anything that wouldn't come at a cost to TSP and its defender politicians. I had previously floated the possibility of a treaty with TSP in our cabinet channel. We then discussed, at length, pushing for TSP to agree not to defend against Osiran invasions in exchange for a treaty, which was my idea in response to his advice but certainly an idea that he supported.

So, yes, the notion that NES wasn't trying to cause trouble for TSP with multiple friends, allies, and potential allies, and the notion that he remained silent rather than pushing his agenda while serving as Director of the Europeian Intelligence Agency and on Europeia's External Affairs Advisory Committee (EAAC), is preposterous. As far as I can tell he is the one who orchestrated the problems with TSP from start to finish, from the TNI treaty cancellation to the diplomatic incident with Europeia over the conferences.

[Onderkelkia]

Onder, I was told quite explicitly that NES was trying to cause trouble, by those who are aligned with the Independent-imperialist sphere but thought his type of confrontational agenda would only push us away from them. (No surprise there, of course.) You can protect him all you want, but I don't think anybody in this game would expect anything less from him.

First, simply because you spoke to a person in Europeia who claimed NES had a view on the issue (and who happened to disagree with the view offered by NES) provides no evidence whatsoever that NES was putting forward his view on behalf of the Imperialist regions, anymore than Unibot saying anything on foreign policy in TSP means he's speaking and acting on behalf of TRR. NES is a senior Europeian official, so he has every right to hold a view on the issue.

Second, you've already indicated that person you spoke to was outside the Europeian Government, so they'd have no specific knowledge of what was being said, by whom and why. They might have a general impression, but they could not have had direct knowledge of what happened. So that's no evidence.

Third, there is no 'protecting' necessary, because a Europeian official expressing a view in Europeia is perfectly legitimate - if that is indeed what happened.

As Onder has surmised without me saying so, which is telling by itself,

Please, anyone who read your post from start to finish would know perfectly well that the individual you kept obliquely referring to was NES:

There is enough overlap in individuals who serve in all of your governments - one individual springs immediately to mind, and he was probably behind it - that official contact isn't needed. Imperialists just pivot from their roles in TNI and/or LKE to the EAAC of Europeia or the Riksraadet of Balder

It's not an accident that while serving as Vizier and Scribe of Foreign Affairs in Osiris, days before I was re-elected as Pharaoh, an individual who has roles in all of the regions in your sphere advised me

you all have an individual in your midst who has become quite skilled at making all of your governments dance

There's only one person with a position in TNI who is in the Europeian EAAC, involved at a high level in Balder or active in Osiris.

Given that, how could anyone with the slightest knowledge of our sphere not deduce whom you meant?

As far as I can tell he is the one who orchestrated the problems with TSP from start to finish, from the TNI treaty cancellation to the diplomatic incident with Europeia over the conferences.

As far as I can tell, you are pursuing a personal vendetta arising from resentment stemming from the period before you stood down as Pharaoh of Osiris.

You say NES orchestrated "the TNI treaty cancellation" with TSP. This is simply made up - in its entirety.

The decision was made by Magenta Fairy, TNI's Minister-President, following a discussion which was initiated jointly by Cerebella and me. The reason the discussion was instigated was in direct response to the treaty between TSP and TRR, which Cerebella and I assessed as unacceptable under our policies.

NES didn't even post once in the TNI cabinet topic in which that discussion took place.

[Glen-Rhodes]

You should really get together with NES and get your stories straight. You're saying he was a Euro official. He's emphatically denying that he was in Euro altogether.

Also, I don't know why you're pretending like Euro is this isolated thing, or placing so much emphasis on its government. It's not difficult for NES to talk to people on IRC. Not everything happens in formal government sessions. This is a common tactic you use to deflect criticism. NES did push for confrontation with TSP. Euro did agree to his agenda. That's fact and it wasn't even in dispute while it was happening. We all knew who the players were and what their agenda was. The only reason we're debating this right now is because you like to rewrite history every other post you make.

[Onderkelkia]

You should really get together with NES and get your stories straight. You're saying he was a Euro official. He's emphatically denying that he was in Euro altogether.

There is no story to get straight'; I'm telling it how it is. He is an official of Europeia in his capacity as Director of the Europeian Intelligence Agency.

That is different to being in the Europeian Government (i.e. a minister in the President's administration), which is what you linked to him denying earlier.

I have not stated he was involved in these discussions - it is you who has argued that (if he says he was not involved, he will know better than either of us).

I have merely said that, if he was involved in the discussions as you have alleged, it would be wholly appropriate given his position in Europeia and - irregardless of whether he was involved - he was not acting in any capacity on behalf of LKE or TNI, so any allegation of Imperialist interference is wrong.

Also, I don't know why you're pretending like Euro is this isolated thing, or placing so much emphasis on its government. It's not difficult for NES to talk to people on IRC. Not everything happens in formal government sessions. This is a common tactic you use to deflect criticism. NES did push for confrontation with TSP. Euro did agree to his agenda. That's fact and it wasn't even in dispute while it was happening. We all knew who the players were and what their agenda was. The only reason we're debating this right now is because you like to rewrite history every other post you make.

You're basically arguing that if NES does anything, that automatically means he is interfering at the behest of the Imperialist sphere, as opposed to participating as an official/citizen of the region he is in. That argument can be equally applied to idealistic defenders, like Unibot and you, acting in TSP.

I'm not rewriting history at all - we have had all sorts of ridiculous and in some cases downright false allegations levelled in this thread on no evidence.

[North East Somerset]

You should really get together with NES and get your stories straight. You're saying he was a Euro official. He's emphatically denying that he was in Euro altogether.

Also, I don't know why you're pretending like Euro is this isolated thing, or placing so much emphasis on its government. It's not difficult for NES to talk to people on IRC. Not everything happens in formal government sessions. This is a common tactic you use to deflect criticism. NES did push for confrontation with TSP. Euro did agree to his agenda. That's fact and it wasn't even in dispute while it was happening. We all knew who the players were and what their agenda was. The only reason we're debating this right now is because you like to rewrite history every other post you make.

Every post on this topic by Glen-Rhodes is formed of unsubstantiated nonsense, and outright false allegations - that merely confirms the need to be suspicious of his agenda. He clearly has no understanding whatsoever of the functional aspects of the Governance of any of the regions he makes spurious allegations about.

I advised Cormac upon his election in Osiris to treat TSP with caution in any Treaty negiotiations because of the senior roles of Glen-Rhodes and Unibot in TSP, and their obvious opposition to Osiris's then imperialist alignment. Cormac as he admits then came up with the idea to "push for TSP to agree not to defend against Osiran invasions in exchange for a treaty" - a deal which I would have supported. But the idea that Cormac did what I advised to any extent whatsoever is farfetched, he was and is a rule unto himself - and his erratic policies reflect that.

I would have advised Europeia again to be cautious in its dealings with TSP's Foreign Minister. But I did not manufacture the Conference to create controversy with TSP as Glen-Rhodes alleges. The conference wasn't my idea and I had no role in its execution. I was and am a senior member in Europeia, and no doubt I would have advised to use caution in dealing with the likes of Glen-Rhodes, but I am not and was not a member of the Government at the time of the TSP-Europeia diplomatic disagreements.

I had absolutely nothing to do with the TNI-TSP treaty repeal, and I didn't advise the TNI government collectively or to any of its officials privately on the matter.

This grand conspiracy that every single event between a region that is not defender, and TSP - which does not favour Glen-Rhodes is due to my influence is not reflective of reality. It's a crazy defender conspiracy that really only goes to prove that the dislike he holds for independent regions was more crippling to relations than the influence any mistrust I hold of him could possibly have had.

All of the regions he alleges are under my thumb are sovereign entities which make their own decisions, and my role is at most advisory. That is, other than Balder where I am a member of the Executive. Balder, whom has had no diplomatic dispute with TSP. How ironic.

Pick holes all you like, but the reality is you have no substantive evidence to support you claims that I engineered crises between TSP and the independent sphere - and are merely slandering me in the hope something sticks. I advised caution when dealing with you as the Foreign Minister because of your history of anti-independence campaigning - and I believe that was the right call both then and in hindsight. And this is no secret conspiracy - I put it directly to the TSP delegate Kringle that I didn't trust you to follow TSP's interests, and though he obviously disagreed, and his hands were and are tied politically by your influence in TSP - that was and is my stance on your foreign agenda in TSP.

[Xoriet]

Ah, but NES. Surely you've yet to meet someone on NS who has an agenda they do not wish to admit to, and thus alleges that everyone else with any influence from a sphere they strongly distrust has one as well. It's a shame that when one draws too much attention to their agenda, that they would wildly fling blame around. It would be nice if ideological politicians were honest about their intentions to the people they have manipulated, are manipulating, or will manipulate to achieve their goals. Sadly, some can't even recognize that their victim complex is substantiated by an inability to fathom that anyone else could be genuine. If they can't be honest, surely no-one else can be, either.

[Kringalia]

I advised Cormac upon his election in Osiris to treat TSP with caution in any Treaty negiotiations because of the senior roles of Glen-Rhodes and Unibot in TSP, and their obvious opposition to Osiris's then imperialist alignment.

Unibot was Chair of the Assembly during my delegacy, and therefore had no role in the formulation of foreign policy. There were only two people in the Cabinet who discussed our policy towards Osiris: myself and Glen, and both of us agreed that we should move towards better relations with Osiris, and possible initiate discussions towards a treaty.

and his hands were and are tied politically by your influence in TSP

Not true. I was the Delegate and my hands were not tied. Every decision I made was with the best interests of the South Pacific in mind. I also fail to see how my hands are currently tied by Glen's influence, since I have no role in the formulation of foreign policy. My current position is that of Minister of Regional Affairs, meaning I oversee regional culture and integration.

Let's be honest here, treating TSP the way it was treated was the thing that antagonized us. People love to overstate the influence of Glen and Unibot, like I was some kind of puppet who did everything they asked. That is not true, and it is getting old. I have no problem in admitting that my delegacy had its failings, like any delegacy does, but it is time to admit that our supposed allies did a pretty good job treating us with causing, which in turn caused the very animosity that they were trying to contain. Had they treated us as equals and respected our sovereignty, things would have been much different.

[Glen-Rhodes]

That is, other than Balder where I am a member of the Executive. Balder, whom has had no diplomatic dispute with TSP. How ironic.

You were certainly gunning for confrontation between Balder and TSP as well, as I was told. It's only by some miracle that cooler heads prevented your anti-TSP agenda.

[Belschaft]

Let's be honest here, treating TSP the way it was treated was the thing that antagonized us. People love to overstate the influence of Glen and Unibot, like I was some kind of puppet who did everything they asked. That is not true, and it is getting old. I have no problem in admitting that my delegacy had its failings, like any delegacy does, but it is time to admit that our supposed allies did a pretty good job treating us with causing, which in turn caused the very animosity that they were trying to contain. Had they treated us as equals and respected our sovereignty, things would have been much different.

If we're going to talk about how allies treat each other, why not mention the absurd decision you made to push for an alliance with a region TNI was at war with whilst we were allied with TNI. It was fundamentally absurd and unsustainable proposal that couldn't work, and you ignored warnings that it would destroy TSP-TNI relations.

If anything, it was TSP who treated TNI badly.

[Cormac Stark]

If we're going to talk about how allies treat each other, why not mention the absurd decision you made to push for an alliance with a region TNI was at war with whilst we were allied with TNI. It was fundamentally absurd and unsustainable proposal that couldn't work, and you ignored warnings that it would destroy TSP-TNI relations.

If anything, it was TSP who treated TNI badly.

What exactly did The South Pacific do to The New Inquisition? Had The New Inquisition again invaded The Rejected Realms, the two treaties could have been used to justify neutrality -- neither supporting the invasion nor defending the invaded. Can The New Inquisition not handle neutrality, or must all of its treaty allies become de facto partners in its petty war against the Founderless Regions Alliance and the regions that comprise it? If the latter, I'm fairly sure most in The South Pacific had no idea when ratifying a treaty with The New Inquisition that they were being asked and expected to support aggression against a fellow GCR.

But then I wouldn't expect anything less from you than to side with The New Inquisition and throw The South Pacific under the bus. You're only waxing patriotic when you're in charge and others dissent, otherwise you're siding with enemies of The South Pacific and trying to subvert its democratic process for your own gain.

[Solorni]

When we could be discussing current or more important events such as the push for the dismantling of the TSP military we are discussing the interactions between individuals that took place months ago. Can we discuss something a little more current and important?

[Belschaft]

If we're going to talk about how allies treat each other, why not mention the absurd decision you made to push for an alliance with a region TNI was at war with whilst we were allied with TNI. It was fundamentally absurd and unsustainable proposal that couldn't work, and you ignored warnings that it would destroy TSP-TNI relations.

If anything, it was TSP who treated TNI badly.

What exactly did The South Pacific do to The New Inquisition? Had The New Inquisition again invaded The Rejected Realms, the two treaties could have been used to justify neutrality -- neither supporting the invasion nor defending the invaded. Can The New Inquisition not handle neutrality, or must all of its treaty allies become de facto partners in its petty war against the Founderless Regions Alliance and the regions that comprise it? If the latter, I'm fairly sure most in The South Pacific had no idea when ratifying a treaty with The New Inquisition that they were being asked and expected to support aggression against a fellow GCR.

But then I wouldn't expect anything less from you than to side with The New Inquisition and throw The South Pacific under the bus. You're only waxing patriotic when you're in charge and others dissent, otherwise you're siding with enemies of The South Pacific and trying to subvert its democratic process for your own gain.

I would disagree that I'm siding with TNI; I found them to be a reliable and potent ally, but I've never had any personal attachment to them in the way that I do TSP's alliances with TNP or Europeia. I however possess the intellectual honesty to not claim that my region is always in the right, and to call the government out when I think it's wrong. I argued extensively that the TNI treaty was being risked by allying with an enemy of them, due to the fundamental absurdity of being stuck in the middle of a war between two allies. The failure of the government to consider TNI's opinion or consult with them to try and deal with any concerns was a disservice to a long term ally, and constituted intentional recklessness and unprofessionalism on the part of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Had the situation been reversed, I would have acted as TNI did.

[Todd McCloud]

But then I wouldn't expect anything less from you than to side with The New Inquisition and throw The South Pacific under the bus. You're only waxing patriotic when you're in charge and others dissent, otherwise you're siding with enemies of The South Pacific and trying to subvert its democratic process for your own gain.

Actually, love him or hate him, Bel's done quite a bit for TSP in its history. And even though some of his plans didn't work out, and sometimes he does stuff that's rash, and people might be pissed at him, bottom line is, at the end of the day, he's still there. Gota respect that. It's kind of like how you attempted to convince others that couping Osiris and establishing the OFO was what you thought was best for Osiris and not for your own personal gain. Some ideas work out, some do not. You don't have to like what people do all of the time. Heck, I don't. But despite all that, he's probably doing what he thinks is best. I assume most act that way, especially those that stay in a region for years. Might not be what's best, but if all people did was agree and play nice all of the time, it'd make for a rather boring game.

[Belschaft]

But then I wouldn't expect anything less from you than to side with The New Inquisition and throw The South Pacific under the bus. You're only waxing patriotic when you're in charge and others dissent, otherwise you're siding with enemies of The South Pacific and trying to subvert its democratic process for your own gain.

Actually, love him or hate him, Bel's done quite a bit for TSP in its history. And even though some of his plans didn't work out, and sometimes he does stuff that's rash, and people might be pissed at him, bottom line is, at the end of the day, he's still there. Gota respect that. It's kind of like how you attempted to convince others that couping Osiris and establishing the OFO was what you thought was best for Osiris and not for your own personal gain. Some ideas work out, some do not. You don't have to like what people do all of the time. Heck, I don't. But despite all that, he's probably doing what he thinks is best. I assume most act that way, especially those that stay in a region for years. Might not be what's best, but if all people did was agree and play nice all of the time, it'd make for a rather boring game.

Y'know, that might just be the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me in NS.

[Todd McCloud]

Of course. 'Bout time something positive came out of this thread.

[Cormac Stark]

Actually, love him or hate him, Bel's done quite a bit for TSP in its history. And even though some of his plans didn't work out, and sometimes he does stuff that's rash, and people might be pissed at him, bottom line is, at the end of the day, he's still there. Gota respect that. It's kind of like how you attempted to convince others that couping Osiris and establishing the OFO was what you thought was best for Osiris and not for your own personal gain. Some ideas work out, some do not. You don't have to like what people do all of the time. Heck, I don't. But despite all that, he's probably doing what he thinks is best. I assume most act that way, especially those that stay in a region for years. Might not be what's best, but if all people did was agree and play nice all of the time, it'd make for a rather boring game.

I mean, it isn't surprising to see you coming to Belschaft's defense since you were assisting him in trying to subvert The South Pacific's democratic processes, and are still to this day so angry with me for exposing your plot that you wouldn't remain in the Osiris Skype chat if I was there.

Are you suggesting that the revolution against the Empire and establishment of the OFO -- Venico's idea, not mine, I just supported it and provided my talents where they were needed -- was for my personal gain? Tell me, Todd, what have I gained from Osiris?

[Solorni]

Actually, love him or hate him, Bel's done quite a bit for TSP in its history. And even though some of his plans didn't work out, and sometimes he does stuff that's rash, and people might be pissed at him, bottom line is, at the end of the day, he's still there. Gota respect that. It's kind of like how you attempted to convince others that couping Osiris and establishing the OFO was what you thought was best for Osiris and not for your own personal gain. Some ideas work out, some do not. You don't have to like what people do all of the time. Heck, I don't. But despite all that, he's probably doing what he thinks is best. I assume most act that way, especially those that stay in a region for years. Might not be what's best, but if all people did was agree and play nice all of the time, it'd make for a rather boring game.

I mean, it isn't surprising to see you coming to Belschaft's defense since you were assisting him in trying to subvert The South Pacific's democratic processes, and are still to this day so angry with me for exposing your plot that you wouldn't remain in the Osiris Skype chat if I was there.

Are you suggesting that the revolution against the Empire and establishment of the OFO -- Venico's idea, not mine, I just supported it and provided my talents where they were needed -- was for my personal gain? Tell me, Todd, what have I gained from Osiris?

Misery; you sir are a masochist. It is very selfish of you

[Todd McCloud]

Actually, love him or hate him, Bel's done quite a bit for TSP in its history. And even though some of his plans didn't work out, and sometimes he does stuff that's rash, and people might be pissed at him, bottom line is, at the end of the day, he's still there. Gota respect that. It's kind of like how you attempted to convince others that couping Osiris and establishing the OFO was what you thought was best for Osiris and not for your own personal gain. Some ideas work out, some do not. You don't have to like what people do all of the time. Heck, I don't. But despite all that, he's probably doing what he thinks is best. I assume most act that way, especially those that stay in a region for years. Might not be what's best, but if all people did was agree and play nice all of the time, it'd make for a rather boring game.

I mean, it isn't surprising to see you coming to Belschaft's defense since you were assisting him in trying to subvert The South Pacific's democratic processes, and are still to this day so angry with me for exposing your plot that you wouldn't remain in the Osiris Skype chat if I was there.

Are you suggesting that the revolution against the Empire and establishment of the OFO -- Venico's idea, not mine, I just supported it and provided my talents where they were needed -- was for my personal gain? Tell me, Todd, what have I gained from Osiris?

It was carried out so well. I mean, I didn't even run for the August Justice election despite being nudged about it. Looks like either I'm so sneaky I out-sneaked myself, or I kind of... didn't feel like it. Even so, I owned up to the plot and apologized. I've not been back since, but I can say, in the six years I gave to that region, I can say the actions I did follow through with I did with the best of intentions and sought to do whatever I could to help out, even if I didn't really have the time. It's a little hard to tell since the forums have switched a few times, but it's all there, in the open or behind closed doors. I know what I've done and I'm at peace with it, even if it matters little to some.

It's definitely not comparable to your situation, now that I think about it. I mean, you gained a delegacy over it. And you're right. I am upset with you because of how you hurt people and continue to hurt people in this game. You don't argue - you seek revenge, go after peaceful people, and hurt them. To further... something. Or nothing. In the rawest sense, and I mean this candidly, I don't know why you play this game. I don't know why you came back. To do this? Really? You said this game was poisonous and toxic, and that's why you were quitting. Allow me to repeat my advice on that - the game is toxic if you let it be toxic to you. Outside of the game based on what I've heard you seem like a good guy. But here, there's a reason why I chose to ignore you. And I rarely do that to anyone. Like, people seem to think Unibot and I hate each other. Well, I don't hate him. I think he's different than me, but I don't hate him. He and I worked together as best as we could during the fair and, despite all our differences, I think we worked well together and pulled off a fun time. I had a lot of fun doing it. But I can't work with you. Not like this. Definitely not like this. It pains me to see this, cause I know you're probably not happy doing this, but you do it anyway. Yeah, I ignore you but I do feel bad.

And that's all I'm going to say. Sorry for the minor threadjack, it's been on my chest for a bit. I'll refrain from discussing this out in the open any further.

[Cormac Stark]

It's definitely not comparable to your situation, now that I think about it. I mean, you gained a delegacy over it. And you're right. I am upset with you because of how you hurt people and continue to hurt people in this game. You don't argue - you seek revenge, go after peaceful people, and hurt them. To further... something. Or nothing. In the rawest sense, and I mean this candidly, I don't know why you play this game. I don't know why you came back. To do this? Really? You said this game was poisonous and toxic, and that's why you were quitting. Allow me to repeat my advice on that - the game is toxic if you let it be toxic to you. Outside of the game based on what I've heard you seem like a good guy. But here, there's a reason why I chose to ignore you. And I rarely do that to anyone. Like, people seem to think Unibot and I hate each other. Well, I don't hate him. I think he's different than me, but I don't hate him. He and I worked together as best as we could during the fair and, despite all our differences, I think we worked well together and pulled off a fun time. I had a lot of fun doing it. But I can't work with you. Not like this. Definitely not like this. It pains me to see this, cause I know you're probably not happy doing this, but you do it anyway. Yeah, I ignore you but I do feel bad.

And that's all I'm going to say. Sorry for the minor threadjack, it's been on my chest for a bit. I'll refrain from discussing this out in the open any further.

Let's be very clear here about what happened: You and Belschaft devised a plan to subvert the democratic processes of The South Pacific either because you didn't like the direction democracy was taking, or because you legitimately place so much value in independence as an ideology that you think it's impossible for real voters to choose a different course and were convinced they were all defender plants. I'm really not sure which.

I then, unsurprisingly, revealed this plot because a) I didn't actually support the subversion of TSP's democracy. Sorry, not sorry; b) TSP's elections were nearing and I was concerned this plan would soon be executed; c) I felt that after Belschaft's high-and-mighty routine directed at Osiris for months, he deserved it. It wasn't out of any personal animosity toward you -- I don't have any problem with you, or at least I didn't. It wasn't even primarily motivated by personal animosity toward Belschaft. So no, I didn't do this because of some petty, spiteful, toxic vendetta, as you're imagining. I did it because you were plotting to subvert The South Pacific.

And then after that -- and this is where the poisonous, toxic nature of gameplay comes in -- the people who were plotting to subvert The South Pacific, the people who were supposedly so sorry and were supposedly acknowledging that they had done wrong, didn't want anything to do with me because I had exposed the plot they were supposedly so sorry for. You weren't sorry, Todd. You were sorry, and angry, that you got caught. You can try to portray me as petty, vindictive, poisonous, toxic all you want, but at the end of the day all I did was expose your gameplay plan on the gameplay forum, and you are the one who made it personal. If you don't want your gameplay plots exposed, don't get involved in gameplay plots. And don't take it personally and make it personal and then accuse others of being the ones to do that.

[Belschaft]

What you did was expose a couple of days of paranoid dirty laundry that had been abandoned months ago Cormac, for no reason but to cause trouble. That's the issue; you simply did it to damage peoples reputations, in the full knowledge that it was nothing more than a couple of days of paranoia that everyone had moved on from.