The Rejected Times

[Comrade Anders Blakewood]

The TCB propaganda machine is so efficient that a member of their legislature, and Foreign Minister has no idea it even exists. We're brilliant, aren't we Zenny?

[Zenya]

The TCB propaganda machine is so efficient that a member of their legislature, and Foreign Minister has no idea it even exists. We're brilliant, aren't we Zenny?

All apart of my master scheme to destroy leftism from the inside
^is an actual theory I've seen pushed by leftists multiple times

[Onderkelkia]

Actually, that was your point:

Your statement here very clearly refers to the nature of Europeia's government, as opposed to its external policy.

Except that my actual statement, in context, was this:

Its government differs little from the governments of its imperialist monarchist allies and the Europeian Republican Navy primarily engages in indiscriminate invasion of other communities, but the genius is in the branding.

...which very clearly refers to Europeia's external policy, i.e., its "indiscriminate invasion of other communities."

The context does not alter the meaning of the argument at all - it is an addition rather than a caveat on your remarks.

The fact you add in criticism of its military activities into the same sentence through the word 'and' does not alter the substance of the first half of the sentence, which criticises how Europeia is governed rather than its external policy. Your argument was about more than external policy alone.

The broader point is that Europeia appeals to other democratic regions as a moderate, more democratic, independent alternative to its imperialist allies, when in reality the governmental differences between Europeia and its allies are negligible

You think the existence of a monarch, constitutionally limited but vested with powers over core regional functions, constitutes a negligible difference? The powers of Europeia's Supreme Chancellor are miniscule compared to those of the LKE Emperor or the TNI Konig - even more so those of the King of Albion.

Likewise, do you think the existence of appointed second legislative chamber, consisting of retired politicians, is a purely negligible difference? Europeia has a unicameral wholly elected legislature - this may not be direct democracy, but popular engagement and impact in politics is very high, both in the nature of elections and in the separate Citizens' Assembly (probably higher than in some regions where the legislature does consist of all citizens).

The idea that popular politics in Europeia is dominated by regional elites reflects a total misunderstanding of one of the most successful UCRs ever.

Again, if you wish to spout about democracy, as you do in your article, Lazarus or The Pacific would come well before Europeia I would think.

That was not my intent, and you're nitpicking.

Actually, it was quite clearly your intention, when bringing democracy into your discussion of Europeia, to imply that there was something nerfarious.

That isn't a substantial difference. Europeia is not at war with the FRA and doesn't have any reason to cancel a treaty with The South Pacific for the reason The New Inquisition did, and everyone knows Kantrias is, at best, a second tier imperialist region that was just following the leader.

The fact that Europeia is not at war with the FRA is bounded up with the same reason why it did not cancel its treaty with TSP.

It is extremely unlikely that Europeia would ever enter into a war with the FRA because declaring and pursuing gameplay wars is essentially an Imperialist strategy, not an Independent strategy. Not all Imperialist regions currently have wars (the LKE was not at war with the FRA between early 2007 and mid 2010, unlike TNI), but they would contemplate declaring them. Short of a very grave cause indeed, it is unlikely that Europeia would ever follow this path.

The military of Kantrias might not form part of the United Imperial Armed Forces but Kantrias is an Imperialist region and its stance on TSP reflected that.

If Europeia canceled its treaty with The South Pacific, imperialists would have no leverage at all with the Coalition anymore.

The idea that Imperialists seek to use Europeia as leverage over TSP is pure paranoia - TNI and other Imperialist regions have no interest in TSP.

As Europeia is not an Imperialist power, it is much less willing to to use either treaties or military action to directly exert political leverage.

That's actually my point; Europeia secures these treaties and brings these regions into the imperialist sphere so that other, more extreme imperialist regions don't have to, and its branding is such that it makes Europeia more appealing than other imperialist regions.

Let's test this thesis about Europeia securing treaties whcih the LKE, TNI and Albion cannot obtain for themselves.

The LKE has treaties with TWP, Balder and Osiris. TNI has treaties with the same regions. Albion has treaties with those regions plus TNP.

The only additional GCR which Europeia has a treaty with is TSP - TNI had a treaty with TSP, before deciding to cut it. So we didn't need Europeia.

There are some individual UCRs, like Equilism, which Europeia has treaties with; likewise, there are big UCRs,the LKE has treaties with but Europeia doesn't. This is just the different nature of the regions concerned - in part reflecting that Europeia is not Imperialist, not some grand plot to control them.

Again, this isn't a substantial difference. It's in the nature of Europeian re-branding of imperialism to seem more peaceful, to publicly air and aggressively pursue fewer petty grievances. If they were identical to other imperialist regions, they wouldn't be serving their purpose. It's smoke and mirrors, not substance. Europeia is substantially in lockstep with other imperialist regions in regard to external policy.

If you're raiding with an explicit political purpose for targeting a given region, it is more Imperialistic than raiding without establishing such a link. Likewise, being prepared to declare and sustain a war, or to close down treaties when foreign partners act contrary to your interests, is in a similar mold.

Imperialism is the aggressive expansion and projection of power.

The willingness to engage in aggressive diplomatic and military behaviours to achieve your objectives is therefore a defining characteristic.

The UIAF is the military wing of imperialism and Europeia is the diplomatic wing.

The UIAF is indeed the military wing of Imperialism for the LKE, TNI and Albion, but LKE, TNI and Albion are strong diplomatic powers in their own right. We do not out-source our diplomacy to anyone and we engage directly with those partners with which we wish to work. Europeia has its own interests.

It would make perfect sense if you're trying to differentiate independence from imperialism, when in substance there is no difference between the supposedly distinct ideologies.

What exactly is the substantial difference between independent and imperialist regions?

Broadly speaking, an Independent region is any region which rejects the 'Raider/Defender dichotomy' (and accompanying ideological principles), seeks to maximise self-interest in its diplomacy, uses the military as a tool of foreign policy and is centred around politics and culture, not military activity.

There are nuances to that, as discussed in the Independent Manifesto.

By contrast, an Imperialist region is an Independent region which seeks to aggressively expand and project its power over other regions.

I've already acknowledged that imperialists have roped other regions into imperialism or its re-branding, independence, so I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove. The other signatories of the Independent Manifesto are also imperialist, or at least engaged in imperialist activity while perhaps being largely ignorant of what their alignment really means. A rose by any other name is still the same damn flower.

Your conception of Imperialism appears to encompass any non-raider region which adopts a foreign or military policy contrary to defender idealism.

You wish to use the label 'Imperialism' to stigmatise those who deviate from your military and diplomatic preferences.

The North Pacific, Equilism and The West Pacific are not Imperialist regions - nor have they been hoodwinked into becoming Imperialist regions.

[Christian Democrats]

You've gone full-on and adopted the political rhetoric of the real world left

You're just now figuring that out?

[The Rainbow Collective]

<snip>

<snip>

Have a nice evening, gentlemen. I hope you enjoyed the article.

[Joshua Ravenclaw]

I'd like to touch briefly on a point that The Rainbow Collective made above, as it specifically mentions the South Pacific.

"If Europeia canceled its treaty with The South Pacific, imperialists would have no leverage at all with the Coalition anymore."

In my experience since taking office, I have had a pleasant and fun exchange of ideas with Mal (their previous president) as well as their current president (Mousebumples, previous vice-president). I have not experienced anything that would indicate that there are others in the relationship seeking to manipulate it for third parties on either side. Nor have I had any concerns relayed to me from members of the South Pacific's cabinet over such a possibility minus the standard grousing that happens when I try to drown a colleague in dates, plans and schemes so that I can sell his life insurance policy before he realises.

[The Rainbow Collective]

I'd like to touch briefly on a point that The Rainbow Collective made above, as it specifically mentions the South Pacific.

"If Europeia canceled its treaty with The South Pacific, imperialists would have no leverage at all with the Coalition anymore."

In my experience since taking office, I have had a pleasant and fun exchange of ideas with Mal (their previous president) as well as their current president (Mousebumples, previous vice-president). I have not experienced anything that would indicate that there are others in the relationship seeking to manipulate it for third parties on either side. Nor have I had any concerns relayed to me from members of the South Pacific's cabinet over such a possibility minus the standard grousing that happens when I try to drown a colleague in dates, plans and schemes so that I can sell his life insurance policy before he realises.

The troubles between Europeia and The South Pacific pre-date your time as Minister of Foreign Affairs, though to be fair they also pre-date both of the presidential administrations you've mentioned.

[King HEM]

Peace, freedom, and democracy has proven a much easier sell to the communities of democratic mega-regions such as The North Pacific and The South Pacific than "Praise the König!" or "Terra Regum Imperatorumque Totum Mundum Reget" ever could.

Our motto is peace, freedom, and equality, you ignoramus.

[Hyanygo]

Peace, feeom and equality.

[Gradea]

Very critical article of Zenya and the Communist Bloc. :[

[Zenya]

Very critical article of Zenya and the Communist Bloc. :[

Hence it must be burnt to the ground D:

[Onderkelkia]

I'd like to touch briefly on a point that The Rainbow Collective made above, as it specifically mentions the South Pacific.

"If Europeia canceled its treaty with The South Pacific, imperialists would have no leverage at all with the Coalition anymore."

In my experience since taking office, I have had a pleasant and fun exchange of ideas with Mal (their previous president) as well as their current president (Mousebumples, previous vice-president). I have not experienced anything that would indicate that there are others in the relationship seeking to manipulate it for third parties on either side. Nor have I had any concerns relayed to me from members of the South Pacific's cabinet over such a possibility minus the standard grousing that happens when I try to drown a colleague in dates, plans and schemes so that I can sell his life insurance policy before he realises.

The troubles between Europeia and The South Pacific pre-date your time as Minister of Foreign Affairs, though to be fair they also pre-date both of the presidential administrations you've mentioned.

The fact that the troubles between Europeia and The South Pacific were tied to a single specific incident, which both sides appear to have moved on from, goes to illustrate the wider point that in no sense is the purpose of Europeia-TSP alliance to exert leverage on TSP on behalf of Imperialist regions.

[Glen-Rhodes]

The issues between TSP and Europeia predate the Independence Conference. If they didn't, then the automatic response from Europeia (and the Independent-imperialist sphere in general, though high-profile members of it predictably refuse to accept any responsibility) wouldn't have been to say TSP needed to prove its Independence creds. Obviously, there had been quite a bit of discussion during the previous months about the direction TSP was headed in, and whether or not that direction was acceptable to Europeia and its allies in the Independent-imperialist sphere. One does not just decide in the moment that their ally isn't good enough. It's a feeling that festered for quite some time, probably peaking with the passage of the TRR and Lazarus treaties and the dissolution of the TSP-TNI treaty.

And to say that there are no problems between Europeia and TSP right now is the most front-iest front I've ever seen anybody put on. Just because Raven is terminally diplomatic and puts on a robotic "all is well" veneer in public does not mean that we're all sailing calm seas. There is still much dissent in the region, and I imagine there will be for a long time until those who orchestrated the ultimatum Europeia delivered to TSP -- and it was not just a decision made by Europeia, again despite the insistence of the Independent-imperialist sphere that there was no wider conspiracy -- actually take responsibility and genuinely apologize for it. Those in power who would love nothing more than to sweep the past under the the rug and embrace a more conciliatory policy, even wanting to re-adopt independence and bring TSP closer to the Independent-imperialist sphere, won't be in power forever, and those who were in power prior to 2014 may very well have an uphill climb trying to get back in on that kind of agenda.

[Gradea]

Good issue! This is the best NS newspaper.

[Onderkelkia]

The issues between TSP and Europeia predate the Independence Conference. If they didn't, then the automatic response from Europeia (and the Independent-imperialist sphere in general, though high-profile members of it predictably refuse to accept any responsibility) wouldn't have been to say TSP needed to prove its Independence creds.

Going to the Regional Sovereignty Conference when you were meant to be co-hosting the Independence Convention must have seemed discrediting enough on its own terms for Europeia as regards TSP's commitment to Independence. In any case, even if you're correct that they had concerns beforehand, having prior concerns informed by wider global events doesn't translate into the allegations Cormac made in his article. The trouble came over the conference.

and it was not just a decision made by Europeia, again despite the insistence of the Independent-imperialist sphere that there was no wider conspiracy

If you are implying that the Imperialist regions urged Europeia to do this, then I can assure that Europeia did not consult either the LKE or TNI governments with regard to The South Pacific and hosting The Independence Convention. The first that I became aware of the issues was when they emerged publicly.

It was entirely reasonable for Europeia to take a decision about whether TSP was a suitable co-host for a conference which it proposed and designed. The Europeian Government had every reason to feel aggrieved and act accordingly on their own behalf without requiring the advice of other intended attendees.

Those in power who would love nothing more than to sweep the past under the the rug and embrace a more conciliatory policy, even wanting to re-adopt independence and bring TSP closer to the Independent-imperialist sphere, won't be in power forever, and those who were in power prior to 2014 may very well have an uphill climb trying to get back in on that kind of agenda.

I've no interest in your internal disputes; I merely took Lord Ravenclaw's comments as representative, as I took your comments when you had his job.

It's clear you see TSP foreign policy as some kind of battle to be fought with your predecessors and successors.

[The Rainbow Collective]

If you are implying that the Imperialist regions urged Europeia to do this, then I can assure that Europeia did not consult either the LKE or TNI governments with regard to The South Pacific and hosting The Independence Convention. The first that I became aware of the issues was when they emerged publicly.

That may be true, that you didn't know and the governments weren't officially in contact, but the issue is that the TNI and LKE governments rarely need to be in official contact with very close allied regions to express their point of view and influence policy matters. There is enough overlap in individuals who serve in all of your governments - one individual springs immediately to mind, and he was probably behind it - that official contact isn't needed. Imperialists just pivot from their roles in TNI and/or LKE to the EAAC of Europeia or the Riksraadet of Balder to influence policy that is favorable to the entire sphere.

It's not an accident that while serving as Vizier and Scribe of Foreign Affairs in Osiris, days before I was re-elected as Pharaoh, an individual who has roles in all of the regions in your sphere advised me to make sure Osiris didn't give The South Pacific anything beneficial without it carrying some cost to them and their defender politicians at the time. This happened just days before The New Inquisition canceled its treaty with The South Pacific. The whole series of affairs - pressure on Osiris not to engage with The South Pacific, the TNI treaty cancellation, the Kantrias treaty cancellation, and finally the dispute with Europeia over the conferences - was too well synchronized not to have been deliberately orchestrated.

Whether your governments were aware of the orchestration is another matter. I'm more than willing to concede that you all have an individual in your midst who has become quite skilled at making all of your governments dance like puppets in a show he's putting on.

[Solorni]

It's not an accident that while serving as Vizier and Scribe of Foreign Affairs in Osiris, days before I was re-elected as Pharaoh

I? I thought you and Cormac were different characters

[Onderkelkia]

There is enough overlap in individuals who serve in all of your governments - one individual springs immediately to mind, and he was probably behind it - that official contact isn't needed. Imperialists just pivot from their roles in TNI and/or LKE to the EAAC of Europeia or the Riksraadet of Balder to influence policy that is favorable to the entire sphere.

North East Somerset is a former President, former Acting Supreme Chancellor and former Foreign Minister of Europeia, apart from being an administrator on their forums and the current, long-serving Director of Europeian Intelligence Agency. His background in Europeia is just as significant as his roles in TNI and more so than in LKE (arguably more so than TNI also if we just look at TNI's post-2009 history, which is the period in which he has been active in Europeia).

So if NES was offering advice in Europeia, he was offering it as a Europeian - certainly he never consulted the LKE or TNI about it, officially or unofficially.

I say 'if', because I have no idea whether he was involved in the discussions there or not. It really is immaterial.

Other than North East Somerset, the only member of the LKE or TNI governments in the Europeian EAAC is HEM, who is the founder of Europeia and has no involvement whatsoever in foreign policy in the LKE - indeed, he can testify I have had many arguments with him over the topic of The South Pacific.

It's not an accident that while serving as Vizier and Scribe of Foreign Affairs in Osiris, days before I was re-elected as Pharaoh, an individual who has roles in all of the regions in your sphere advised me to make sure Osiris didn't give The South Pacific anything beneficial without it carrying some cost to them and their defender politicians at the time.

If I recall correctly, when you became Pharaoh, it was you who was quite eager to antagonise TSP and all other regions who failed to conform to your desired agenda. Indeed, you managed to completely alienate TSP, and a great many others. So to turn around and blame the Imperialist governments for your own poor handling of the diplomatic affairs of Osiris is quite convenient - as well as reflecting your obsession with blaming NES.

An obsession to the extent that Cormac "retired", only for you to reinvent yourself under a new identity, where you launched into creating a rift between Imperialists and a third, completely uninvolved sphere. You can talk about UIAF attacking Eastern Europe, but I didn't see other socialists - those who have actually been in socialist regions for far longer than you - jumping up and down to voice criticism of the UIAF with the quite same enthusiasm as you have.

If you were intending to avoid "mainstream gameplay", as you have now repeatedly described it, you could have taken a more conventional course for a member of a socialist region, but instead you chose to come back and attack Imperialists specifically - manifested in this article in TRR Times.

the Kantrias treaty cancellation,

NES has no role in Kantrias - indeed, I'm unaware of him having ever set foot in the place (neither have I) - so I suppose he orchestrated that by telepathy.

[RiderSyl]

If you were intending to avoid "mainstream gameplay", as you have now repeatedly described it, you could have taken a more conventional course for a member of a socialist region, but instead you chose to come back and attack Imperialists specifically - manifested in this article in TRR Times.

I'm gonna have to agree with Onder here, 'cause I was thinking the same exact thing before his latest reply. If you were trying to avoid "mainstream" gameplay, Rainbow, you've totally failed in doing that. Hell, you've jumped right back into the saddle as far as I can tell.

It's not an accident that while serving as Vizier and Scribe of Foreign Affairs in Osiris, days before I was re-elected as Pharaoh

I? I thought you and Cormac were different characters

Yeah, see, this is the thing with duality. If you're going to tell everyone that you have two separate characters now, you can't piggyback on the history of one character while in an argument as the other one. That sort of juggling is the reason I decided to come back as myself, and not take the Milograd route.

[Glen-Rhodes]

and it was not just a decision made by Europeia, again despite the insistence of the Independent-imperialist sphere that there was no wider conspiracy

If you are implying that the Imperialist regions urged Europeia to do this, then I can assure that Europeia did not consult either the LKE or TNI governments with regard to The South Pacific and hosting The Independence Convention. The first that I became aware of the issues was when they emerged publicly.

That is not what I'm implying. That is what I'm saying. I spoke to people outside of Europeiean government during the conferences debacle, and it was very clear that high-profile members of the Independent-imperialist sphere (NES, for one) were pushing for confrontation with TSP. This was part of a broader collective freak-out that Unibot and I were conducting a hostile take-over of TSP, a freak-out in which Europeia took part.

[The Rainbow Collective]

I? I thought you and Cormac were different characters

<snip>

<snip>

Sorry, but I'm not going to observe the strict rules of duality while my enemies are thinking of me as, ridiculing me as, and calling me Cormac. If none of you are going to respect any difference, I'm not going to observe any difference - as far as I'm concerned, I'm Cormac, because none of you will ever let me be anything else.

I also really don't need criticism on the subject of strange retirements and returns from Syl, the retired, un-retired forum destroyer.

Cormac Stark is back in my signature. My puppets in several regions are active again. This duality thing is over, so let's drop it and get back to the actual topic, shall we?

[Onderkelkia]

If you are implying that the Imperialist regions urged Europeia to do this, then I can assure that Europeia did not consult either the LKE or TNI governments with regard to The South Pacific and hosting The Independence Convention. The first that I became aware of the issues was when they emerged publicly.

That is not what I'm implying. That is what I'm saying. I spoke to people outside of Europeiean government during the conferences debacle, and it was very clear that high-profile members of the Independent-imperialist sphere (NES, for one) were pushing for confrontation with TSP. This was part of a broader collective freak-out that Unibot and I were conducting a hostile take-over of TSP, a freak-out in which Europeia took part.

While I am telling you that there was no LKE or TNI communication to Europeia, official or unofficial, to that effect. If anyone said that, they lied.

I have no idea what NES said within Europeia or if he had any role in it, but if so, it would have been as a high-ranking and long-standing Europeian official.

I am not even aware of any other Europeain official who might have participated in their discussion who had any kind of role in the LKE or TNI governments, other than HEM - who has had no foreign policy input in the LKE, does not share my view on TSP and is the founder of Europeia, so hardly fits your idea.

You say you 'spoke to people outside of Europeiean government'. How would they know what was being said inside the Europeian Government?

If none of you are going to respect any difference, I'm not going to observe any difference - as far as I'm concerned, I'm Cormac, because none of you will ever let me be anything else.

In our discussion, you raised your history as Cormac in Osiris to provide evidence for an argument before I addressed that background in reply.

[The Rainbow Collective]

In our discussion, you raised your history as Cormac in Osiris to provide evidence for an argument before I addressed that background in reply.

And prior to this particular discussion, you've been calling me Cormac and making reference to past actions well before I dropped duality.

Regardless, my retirement, return from retirement, and duality - while all fascinating topics - have nothing to do with any article in The Rejected Times this week.

[Onderkelkia]

In our discussion, you raised your history as Cormac in Osiris to provide evidence for an argument before I addressed that background in reply.

And prior to this particular discussion, you've been calling me Cormac and making reference to past actions well before I dropped duality.

Regardless, my retirement, return from retirement, and duality - while all fascinating topics - have nothing to do with any article in The Rejected Times this week.

No, the only instance where I've called you Cormac prior to this discussion is here, where I referred to this as Cormac's article - which is relevant to the understanding of it. To appreciate any an article you must be aware of its author. I did not seek to make an argumentative point or criticism of it.

You referred, prior to your exposure, to several aspects of LKE history and UIAF history which you knew as Cormac. The idea you can legitimately claim a cloak is absurd. In any case, I don't accept notions of duality, but it is entirely inaccurate to suggest I have been routinely referencing your past actions.

[The Rainbow Collective]

You referred, prior to your exposure, to several aspects of LKE history and UIAF history which you knew as Cormac. The idea you can legitimately claim a cloak is absurd. In any case, I don't accept notions of duality, but it is entirely inaccurate to suggest I have been routinely referencing your past actions.

I didn't say you had routinely done it; I said you've done it before this discussion, and you have. And I am no longer claiming duality, so let's move on.