The Rejected Times

[Unibot III]

It's government wide. Legislative-Executive-Judicial. The Assembly includes the citizens. You're correct to say that focusing on the number of crossovers is misleading because governments like TEP and TP are much smaller than governments like TSP and TRR. I'm just trying to draw a larger picture that shows major crossover between all of the governments without emphasize one or the other as more "corrupted".

That makes you data even worse. Every citizen of TSP is a member of the Assembly; your sample for TSP would, if conducted today, involve 63 people - it would have been even larger when you collected the data as it would have been on our old forums, when we had more citizens. The sample for TP was, for comparison, how large exactly?

This is true, but if you're thinking in terms, "which government is the most crossovered", it becomes misleading because smaller, more centralized governments can be even more vulnerable to crossover. I agree however that the main disconnect here is that some haven't understood what I set out to demonstrate.

No, it's that the data you've chosen to share is awful.

The old "if I say enough 'awfuls', 'horribles' and 'dreadfuls', people may believe me" trick from Belschaft.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

That makes you data even worse. Every citizen of TSP is a member of the Assembly; your sample for TSP would, if conducted today, involve 63 people - it would have been even larger when you collected the data as it would have been on our old forums, when we had more citizens. The sample for TP was, for comparison, how large exactly?

No, it's that the data you've chosen to share is awful.

The old "if I say enough 'awfuls', 'horribles' and 'dreadfuls', people may believe me" trick from Belschaft.

So I take it you have no intention whatsoever of sharing the sample sizes? Or any of the other data whatsoever?

There's a reason why the raw data of all reputable statistical analysis is published along with the authors own conclusions.

[The North Polish Union]

That makes you data even worse. Every citizen of TSP is a member of the Assembly; your sample for TSP would, if conducted today, involve 63 people - it would have been even larger when you collected the data as it would have been on our old forums, when we had more citizens. The sample for TP was, for comparison, how large exactly?

No, it's that the data you've chosen to share is awful.

The old "if I say enough 'awfuls', 'horribles' and 'dreadfuls', people may believe me" trick from Belschaft.

That does not address the argument Belschaft provided. 0/10, try again.

[Unibot III]

The old "if I say enough 'awfuls', 'horribles' and 'dreadfuls', people may believe me" trick from Belschaft.

So I take it you have no intention whatsoever of sharing the sample sizes? Or any of the other data whatsoever?

There's a reason why the raw data of all reputable statistical analysis is published along with the authors own conclusions.

For an academic paper? Yes. Not a newspaper editorial.

[JURISDICTIONS]

I would like to point out here - something very crucial.

The graph that Unibot provides, is the "interconnections" of players who hold governmental positions in more than one government.

For instance and example, I am a Judge (Arbiter) in TEP, and I am also a Judge (Elder) in Osiris (I am proud to serve both of my regions). Thus, there is a singular line representing me on this graph, connecting TEP to Osiris .... If say there is a Legislator (Magister) from TEP, who is also a member of TNP's Regional Assembly (Citizen Legislator), this connection would also represent another line.

Hence, if a player holds multiple positions among the GCR Governments, then each connection would be represented with a line.

I didn't know it, but I must be a member of this "GCR aristocracy", as Unibot labels it. According to this here ... *Juris points to the graph* "model of government-player-position-regional-interconnection-graph"

Belschaft, I fear you have missed Unibot's mode of argument entirely. I can see how you may have misinterpreted the info-graphic, considering that some GCR's use a Citizen Legislator model of constitutional governance, it would seem like such connections are drawn from citizenship, when actually it is simply the case that the Legislative is the citizens.

- Juris

[Glen-Rhodes]

There's a reason why the raw data of all reputable statistical analysis is published along with the authors own conclusions.

The data is publicly available. No GCR keeps it's government members a secret. Anybody could recreate this visualization.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Anumia]

It's not unreasonable to ask an author to provide their data, though.

[PhDre]

That would be nice if Uni were interested in allowing us to replicate his results or interpret the data ourselves. I for one would be interested in doing so. But providing raw data would suggest that Uni were approaching this academically / acting in good faith; when he has a point to prove we can hardly expect him to be intellectually honest.

[JURISDICTIONS]

Again --- this is really really simple.

Each line on his graph, represents a player who has a position in more than two GCR governments.

For instance, I am on there, I am the line between TEP and OSI, because I am a judge for both.

I don't understand the problem people are having here.

[Zaolat]

That would be nice if Uni were interested in allowing us to replicate his results or interpret the data ourselves. I for one would be interested in doing so. But providing raw data would suggest that Uni were approaching this academically / acting in good faith; when he has a point to prove we can hardly expect him to be intellectually honest.

OMG, I MISSED YOU! Where ya been? Sorry for going offtopic.

[PhDre]

OMG, I MISSED YOU! Where ya been? Sorry for going offtopic.

Hey!! Finishing up undergrad and finding a job! I'll poke you to get back in touch

[South Pacific Belschaft]

Again --- this is really really simple.

Each line on his graph, represents a player who has a position in more than two GCR governments.

For instance, I am on there, I am the line between TEP and OSI, because I am a judge for both.

I don't understand the problem people are having here.

Everyone knows this. That is not the issue. The issue is that for some of the regions Unibot's sample consists of dozens of individuals, whilst for some it will be barely ten people. More broadly, his refusal to share his data to allow anyone else to examine it is also... questionable.

[Unibot III]

The data is publicly available. No GCR keeps it's government members a secret. Anybody could recreate this visualization.

I had to ask the Speaker in Balder for their list of assemblymen, otherwise yes it's freely available.

Here's my raw raw data, I didn't save my data when I compiled a 9x9 to count each crossover unfortunately. Orange are crossovers. A word to the wise, if I knew someone was not a cross-over off the top of my head (e.g., A Slanted Black Stripe, Great Bights Mum), I just didn't bother noting them down in my list as I compiled it because it wasn't data I needed. I wasn't intending to release this for public consumption (presuming no demand for it) or I would have made it look prettier.

The issue is that for some of the regions Unibot's sample consists of dozens of individuals, whilst for some it will be barely ten people.

This is because some regions have very large legislatures, other have elected or closed legislatures or no legislatures or sign-up legislatures. TRR and TSP are examples of two wide open legislatures.

I agree that people probably should not point to TSP and TRR and say "rarh they're more infiltrated!" You probably cannot make an accurate quantitative comparative analysis on those figures alone. Four people on a ten person executive can have even more influence in some cases as thirty people in a sixty person legislature.

At no point in my article did I try to make a comparative analysis using this graph - the comparisons were made by readers. All I did was say that overall the scale of integration is vast.

[The Autonomous Collective]

As unibot pointed out, the graphs are for entertainment. I think that's the main point. Though I must say, this one is a bit more conclusive (not much) than some of his/her other works.

I would like to see an article about the extent to which moderation has changed gameplay, throughout the years. It would be a relevant article, since they can determine virtual existence within NS, and ultimately define parameters; thus, shaping the NS world. Maybe we will be able to draw some interesting metaphors and possibly a solid analogy or two.

[Unibot III]

I would like to see an article about the extent to which moderation has changed gameplay, throughout the years. It would be a relevant article, since they can determine virtual existence within NS, and ultimately define parameters; thus, shaping the NS world. Maybe we will be able to draw some interesting metaphors and possibly a solid analogy or two.

Well, it's the same way that government policy can have unintended consequences on the smallest and most distant of things. Moderation has absolutely shaped things, especially the History of Invading: from the Griefing rules to the Influence Rules to now.

Moderation can change the way we think about different "areas" of the game. For example, is flag making a roleplaying project or a gameplay project? Are NS Weddings, roleplay or gameplay? The boundary between roleplay and gameplay is arbitrary and a modern development (at one time this distinction was not made). It's a boundary that is sharply enforced by Moderation.We start thinking of ourselves as "gameplayers" and "roleplayers".

[North East Somerset]

Perhaps Nationstates society is enforcing arbitrary classifications on people through policing, and we need to break free of the imposition of normative behaviour and embrace transplayer identities more.

Maybe we should start with Unibot. Would you like to tell us your story?

[South Pacific Belschaft]

Moderation can change the way we think about different "areas" of the game. For example, is flag making a roleplaying project or a gameplay project? Are NS Weddings, roleplay or gameplay? The boundary between roleplay and gameplay is arbitrary and a modern development (at one time this distinction was not made). It's a boundary that is sharply enforced by Moderation.We start thinking of ourselves as "gameplayers" and "roleplayers".

"In-character talk about gameplay, recruiting, politics, inter-regional rivalries, and why llamas are a cooler national animal than squirrels."

vs.

"Talk about nation management, regional politics, and why llamas are a cooler national animal than squirrels. Not a roleplaying forum."

I hate to be pedantic, but that rather seems to be the GP forum under an older name - the "In-character" looks like it would refer to 'personas' (remember the 'duality' nonsense that used to be taken seriously). Everything mentioned there is part of GP, not RP - there's no mention of any RP related topics. Going by the indexed page you linked to it would look like that in 2002 there was simply no RP section of the NS forums.

[Venico]

Malice does its updates in character as an Assassin writing in his journal.

[Sedgistan]

The NationStates forum looks to have been originally created with the intent of being a somewhat in-character (i.e. "personas" as Belschaft mentions above) forum for gameplay discussion. Sadly, it was taken over by roleplayers, and now the forum that bears the name of the NationStates game can't be used for discussion of the actual game. One day we'll merge all that stuff into International Incidents and take back the NS name for the game

[The Leningrad Union]

The NationStates forum looks to have been originally created with the intent of being a somewhat in-character (i.e. "personas" as Belschaft mentions above) forum for gameplay discussion. Sadly, it was taken over by roleplayers, and now the forum that bears the name of the NationStates game can't be used for discussion of the actual game. One day we'll merge all that stuff into International Incidents and take back the NS name for the game

I like the sound of that!

[Unibot III]

Perhaps Nationstates society is enforcing arbitrary classifications on people through policing, and we need to break free of the imposition of normative behaviour and embrace transplayer identities more.

Maybe we should start with Unibot. Would you like to tell us your story?

Well, I was a WA Author (GA and SC) for years, a roleplayer and a defender.

[Kazmr]

One day we'll merge all that stuff into International Incidents and take back the NS name for the game

So... basically WA voting and issue answering?

[SFBA Campinia]

One day we'll merge all that stuff into International Incidents and take back the NS name for the game

So... basically WA voting and issue answering?

And regional recruitment threads...

[Ananke II]

I hate to be pedantic, but that rather seems to be the GP forum under an older name - the "In-character" looks like it would refer to 'personas' (remember the 'duality' nonsense that used to be taken seriously). Everything mentioned there is part of GP, not RP - there's no mention of any RP related topics. Going by the indexed page you linked to it would look like that in 2002 there was simply no RP section of the NS forums.

It might look like that from the outside, but I remember the Nationstates subforum pretty quickly turning into a de facto roleplay forum. People did post gameplay stuff there back then, but it mostly got buried in all the roleplay threads, so a lot of people stopped using it for gameplay discussions. That's why people petitioned for a Gameplay subforum, since it had pretty much gotten pushed out of the Nationstates forum, with noone being able to find gameplay topics posted there.

[The Blaatschapen]

The NationStates forum looks to have been originally created with the intent of being a somewhat in-character (i.e. "personas" as Belschaft mentions above) forum for gameplay discussion. Sadly, it was taken over by roleplayers, and now the forum that bears the name of the NationStates game can't be used for discussion of the actual game. One day we'll merge all that stuff into International Incidents and take back the NS name for the game

And Mall will be our scapegoat when anyone complains. We'll just say that it's called "forum raiding"