The Rejected Times

[The Church of Satan]

Plus TRT and the TRR government have butted heads on several occasions. I've had those conversations with fratt myself more than once.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

I'd be happy to write a rebuttal to the WALL article TRT just published. There are serious issues in how your writer has portrayed WALL - they seem to be living about a year in the past.

[Frattastan IV]

I'd be happy to write a rebuttal to the WALL article TRT just published.

Will be glad to take you up on your offer.

[Guy]

When people talk about Cormac having his hand on the pulse of NS and GCRs, exerting his influence anywhere and everywhere... I hope they remember this post.

Just going to point out once again that this is all based on Glen-Rhodes' public campaign for Minister of Foreign Affairs in TSP. If you're going to argue that I'm stupid for believing he actually intended to follow through on his campaign promise, well, that's fine, but apparently so did TSP voters.

If you would prefer I obtain information from your citizen-only areas, instead of relying on public information, I can do that.

I don't doubt your ability to get people to apprise you of matters that are supposed to be private or even told in confidence: That is indeed an impressive skill that you have.

Given that your information is badly mistaken when you have not been made privy to such information, as TRR has experienced several times now (aside from this instance, there was that whole coup debacle mid-2017...), I do have to say I find it all a little amusing - but props to you when you're right.

[Killer Kitty]

Given that your information is badly mistaken when you have not been made privy to such information, as TRR has experienced several times now (aside from this instance, there was that whole coup debacle mid-2017...), I do have to say I find it all a little amusing - but props to you when you're right.

And which "coup debacle" might you be referring to? I only remember one thing happening mid-2017, and that was the start of the Lazarus Civil War. I believe Cormac supported Funk's claim that people were plotting to coup him and that the Lazarus government was right to put those conspirators on trial. TRR opposed this claim and took military action against Lazarus. Turns out NPO was plotting to coup Funk from the very start and had helped engineer the Civil War, to include clandestinely organizing the very people Funk rightfully put on trial. As such, TRR and the RRA became the NPO's unwitting lackeys.

Cormac was right and TRR was wrong.

Or maybe you'd like to redeem yourself and claim you're talking about something else?

[Guy]

Given that your information is badly mistaken when you have not been made privy to such information, as TRR has experienced several times now (aside from this instance, there was that whole coup debacle mid-2017...), I do have to say I find it all a little amusing - but props to you when you're right.

And which "coup debacle" might you be referring to? I only remember one thing happening mid-2017, and that was the start of the Lazarus Civil War. I believe Cormac supported Funk's claim that people were plotting to coup him and that the Lazarus government was right to put those conspirators on trial. TRR opposed this claim and took military action against Lazarus. Turns out NPO was plotting to coup Funk from the very start and had helped engineer the Civil War, to include clandestinely organizing the very people Funk rightfully put on trial. As such, TRR and the RRA became the NPO's unwitting lackeys.

Cormac was right and TRR was wrong.

Or maybe you'd like to redeem yourself and claim you're talking about something else?

I, too, occasionally enjoy ranting about things that are entirely unrelated to the topic at hand.

While your characterisation is characteristically way off the mark, you’d be pleased to find out that more than one thing had occurred in mid-2017.

[Killer Kitty]

I, too, occasionally enjoy ranting about things that are entirely unrelated to the topic at hand.

While your characterisation is characteristically way off the mark, you’d be pleased to find out that more than one thing had occurred in mid-2017.

I don't know, Guy. The topic you were talking about seemed to be about how "wrong" Cormac is vs. how "right" TRR is. Pretty sure I got the subject nailed now. But why don't you enlighten the class about this mysterious event you seem so keen on not disclosing.

[The Church of Satan]

But why don't you enlighten the class about this mysterious event you seem so keen on not disclosing.

I believe he is referring to Cormac's attempted coup of TRR. You know, when he was pissed that TRRs laws gave Unibot the same rights as any resident of TRR. After all Cormac has said several times that he doesn't care about regional laws. He disagreed with our laws so he thought "To hell with TRR law! I'll just coup the region because I want to suppress every RMB post he makes!"

[RiderSyl]

Jesus, Syl, eat a snickers!

Only if you tell Pierconium to stop ruining your meme.

[Pierconium]

Jesus, Syl, eat a snickers!

Only if you tell Pierconium to stop ruining your meme.

Your obsession with me is somewhat concerning.

[RiderSyl]

Only if you tell Pierconium to stop ruining your meme.

Your obsession with me is somewhat concerning.

You're really creeping me out with these sorts of comments.

[Pierconium]

Your obsession with me is somewhat concerning.

You're really creeping me out with these sorts of comments.

Okay. Perhaps if you didn’t feel the need to reply to all my posts or make comments about me on a daily basis I wouldn’t make such comments. Trust me, I’m the one that’s creeped out here.

[RiderSyl]

You're really creeping me out with these sorts of comments.

Okay. Perhaps if you didn’t feel the need to reply to all my posts or make comments about me on a daily basis I wouldn’t make such comments. Trust me, I’m the one that’s creeped out here.

We're two players who are active on the same types of threads on the same forum and are responding to each other in those same threads. This "following" and "obsession" stuff is in your head at best, and an attempt to smear me at worst.

[Cormactopia Prime]

But why don't you enlighten the class about this mysterious event you seem so keen on not disclosing.

I believe he is referring to Cormac's attempted coup of TRR. You know, when he was pissed that TRRs laws gave Unibot the same rights as any resident of TRR. After all Cormac has said several times that he doesn't care about regional laws. He disagreed with our laws so he thought "To hell with TRR law! I'll just coup the region because I want to suppress every RMB post he makes!"

Actually, Section 2 of the Regional Message Board Act permits the Delegate of the Rejected Realms to suppress posts "insofar as this suppression helps maintain a safe and open public space for other residents." Legal restrictions against post suppression aren't universal and absolute.

While I regret my coup attempt, I was demanding only action that was consistent with TRR's laws. Suppressing Unibot's posts would have been legal.

[Elegarth]

Jesus, Syl, eat a snickers!

Only if you tell Pierconium to stop ruining your meme.

This is getting boring, old, staled... Ugh.

Also, Hi Cormac!

[The Church of Satan]

Actually, Section 2 of the Regional Message Board Act permits the Delegate of the Rejected Realms to suppress posts "insofar as this suppression helps maintain a safe and open public space for other residents." Legal restrictions against post suppression aren't universal and absolute.

While I regret my coup attempt, I was demanding only action that was consistent with TRR's laws. Suppressing Unibot's posts would have been legal.

Posts by Unibot by virtue of him being himself isn't just cause for suppression. I know you'd like it to be but the notion is a radical over-exaggeration. Even Govindia (as much as I despise even tolerating him on this website) doesn't justify such unfair treatment.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Actually, Section 2 of the Regional Message Board Act permits the Delegate of the Rejected Realms to suppress posts "insofar as this suppression helps maintain a safe and open public space for other residents." Legal restrictions against post suppression aren't universal and absolute.

While I regret my coup attempt, I was demanding only action that was consistent with TRR's laws. Suppressing Unibot's posts would have been legal.

Posts by Unibot by virtue of him being himself isn't just cause for suppression. I know you'd like it to be but the notion is a radical over-exaggeration. Even Govindia (as much as I despise even tolerating him on this website) doesn't justify such unfair treatment.

That's not a point I'd care to argue anymore. I've moved on. I'm just saying, from my perspective at the time, I didn't feel I was demanding that anyone violate TRR law. As I've said though, I do regret the entire incident and my conduct at the time. I don't expect anyone to accept my apology, but for what it's worth, I am sorry.

[The Church of Satan]

That's not a point I'd care to argue anymore. I've moved on. I'm just saying, from my perspective at the time, I didn't feel I was demanding that anyone violate TRR law. As I've said though, I do regret the entire incident and my conduct at the time. I don't expect anyone to accept my apology, but for what it's worth, I am sorry.

I can't speak for anyone else but I myself do appreciate it. If anything I'm rather surprised. You've always come off as the type to never regret any of his actions.

[Lyrical International Brigade]

I'd be happy to write a rebuttal to the WALL article TRT just published. There are serious issues in how your writer has portrayed WALL - they seem to be living about a year in the past.

...can you start with "Just because 99% of one-liner GA proposals are dogshite doesn't mean that every one-line resolution is a priori crap?" The ones that really are terrible do get filtered out naturally, whether because they violate game rules or because voters realize they are crap.

K thx!

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

I'd be happy to write a rebuttal to the WALL article TRT just published. There are serious issues in how your writer has portrayed WALL - they seem to be living about a year in the past.

...can you start with "Just because 99% of one-liner GA proposals are dogshite doesn't mean that every one-line resolution is a priori crap?" The ones that really are terrible do get filtered out naturally, whether because they violate game rules or because voters realize they are crap.

K thx!

My reply is more going to be that the author is living in some kind of timewarp, 12 months in the past.

[Killer Kitty]

My reply is more going to be that the author is living in some kind of timewarp, 12 months in the past.

It's just a jump to the left.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

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Issue L | March 31, 2019

Media Officer: Marilyn Manson Freaks
Editor-in-Chief: Marilyn Manson Freaks

Index

"Pharaohic Victory: An Osiran Meritocratic reading of Alti's Abdication" | FEATURE | WRITTEN BY Correspondent Glacikaldr | EDITED BY TRT STAFF
"Europeia is Victorious?" | COMMENTARY | WRITTEN BY Senior Correspondent The Church of Satan | EDITED BY TRT STAFF
"Democracy in the NPO? That's Cute!" | COMMENTARY | WRITTEN BY Intern The Aligned People | EDITED BY TRT STAFF
"Miss(ing) Congeniality" | OPINION | WRITTEN BY GUEST Harenhime | EDITED BY TRT STAFF

Pharaohic Victory: An Osiran Meritocratic reading of Alti's Abdication
FEATURE | WRITTEN BY Correspondent Glacikaldr | EDITED BY TRT STAFF

On the 24th of March (25th for me), Altino, Delegate and Pharaoh of Osiris, publicly announced her coming abdication within Osiris's Temple on their regional forum. The immediate response speaks for itself; Alti's delegacy will continue to be cherished among the Osiran citizenry, and NationStates as a whole, for well into the perceivable future, and well-deservedly so.

Alti elaborated upon her decision, explaining that while "we've made a lot of "eternal delegate" jokes... and stepped into a lot of "beat Solorni's record" spaces… I have always known that was not going to be a thing that happened. I am a realistic person and I know that even if I kept up the energy to keep pushing out new ideas and programs forever, by doing so I would be stealing from Osiris vital changes and opportunities to evolve. That's not what I want. We have achieved so much together and changed Osiris in so many shockingly well-manoeuvred directions, and I am so proud of all of us for it... but I can feel myself slowing down. I can feel that we've reached the end of what my vision really had to offer Osiris at this point in time."

While Alti's justifications might appear as a shock to a common onlooker, a person is generally their own best judge at telling when they no longer the most suitable person for a role, as I'm sure all long-term players know only too well. Still, Alti's stepping-down has not been one hastened by unkept promises, as her planned abdication came with an acknowledgement that she has met the goals she set out to complete during her delegacy (formatting aside from numbering my own):
1) getting ourselves some natives in here so we weren't run by cosmos;
2) making sure that we had government departments that could function in a way that didn't make them miserable; and
3) making sure Osiris had a stable and positive reputation in the game.

The last of which, motivated by her desire for Osiris "to function well and be taken seriously", is where I feel most comfortable giving my input for evaluation's sake. Indeed, Alti's Game-Created Region (GCR) delegacy has done much for the public opinion of the meritocratic brand. Traditionally, meritocracies have been seen as ways for what are usually user-created regions to install a -- what I like to call -- friendocracy, albeit autocratic by design through the default founder system for newly founded regions. Not even I have been innocent in such derailing of the meritocratic project, using the guise of merit within the governance of smaller NationStates regions to put friends into positions of power. Nevertheless, I Osiris's success has led me to believe that, when operating at their best, tested meritocracies and preferential democracies in NationStates end up with people of the same calibre and with similar suitability in government. As Koth highlights, Alti's "ideals on meritocracy… keeping the best possible people in your cabinet at all times" challenges the negative perceptions of meritocracies being inherently a vessel for corruption. Even in the Rejected Realms, where we have some meritocratic positions such as Deputy Officers, there are some tweaks that we can consider adopting from this successful application of instalment by proven merit, and the motivating factors for such participation, within the modern Osiran political system.

Cormac's reply regarding his opinion on Alti as the best Pharaoh bar none was echoed throughout the thread, with Koth drawing parallels between the meritocratic project's success in Osiris as of late to the Osiran opinion of Alti's guidance as Pharaoh; "It's a winning product, shaped by a winning formula. The government deserves their fair share of the credit for everything they've done to contribute to that fact, but they were your government." There's no doubt in my mind that Alti's delegacy will be seen as a victory for meritocracy as a whole. As said by Koth, Alti "changed the whole culture, the entire atmosphere of the region", and as long as the Osiran citizenry can continue to produce and provide the necessary support and guidance for at least one heir capable of continuing what has already been put in place for the region, then I see no reason to question the stability of the Osiris Fraternal Order more than I question any other GCR. And, with high hopes and high expectations already being matched by Heiress Lynxi, I am sure it will not be long until much more substantive treaties begin to flow down the Nile once more.

Altino will be officially abdicating on the 31st of March, today, whereby Heiress Apparent Lynxi will become the next Pharaoh of Osiris.

Europeia is Victorious?
COMMENTARY | WRITTEN BY Senior Correspondent The Church of Satan | EDITED BY TRT STAFF

While there were a few regions that declared war on the NPO after the discovery of hostile and covert operations being conducted against its fellow GCRs by the New Pacific Order contrary to Francoism, the defining ideology of The Pacific's governing body, there is only one that feels the battle is over. On March 10th Europeia declared victory over the NPO, claiming all of its goals in this war had been achieved. Among them the most questionable one was long-term change in how the NPO will conduct itself as well as the change in its government's members. Specifically the use of Francoism regarding government operations up to and including intelligence activities. Many however do not believe this to be true. The NPO has proven time and again that such concessions are temporary PR moves to save its public image while it plans even more hostile operations against GCRs.

Traditionally victory means forcing your opponent to surrender or defeating them in their own region once and for all. However neither of these things have happened. Whether Europeia's so-called victory is a non-traditional victory remains to be seen. History proves that they will ultimately be wrong in their assumption of victory. Will the NPO be up to its old tricks again in a year's time with the same faces calling the shots as has been the case in every instance so far? Will there be a repeat of their coup of Lazarus in 2015? Will they back the illegitimate horse once more? If they do, will
Europeia really have been victorious or will they simply have been incorrect? Is Europeia being naïve or do they just want out? The former is easily a foolish choice given the NPO's prior false concessions, however the latter is just asking for bad PR. Victory has clearly not been achieved but perhaps this declaration is a calculated choice to wash their hands of it. It's understandable. After all few actually want war.

Democracy in the NPO? That's Cute!
COMMENTARY | WRITTEN BY Intern The Aligned People | EDITED BY TRT STAFF

The NPO is bringing in Democracy? Who knew that any shimmer of hope could come from a regime such as the NPO? East Durthang, the WA Delegate for The Pacific and Emperor of the NPO, has rejoiced at the “fact” that they have added an elected official to their Senate! (an elected official period). Quote marks around “fact” because it would be foolish to believe that Democracy would be allowed to enter the doors of the NPO; it is all a sham with the hope that putting up such a façade will help out whatever public image they have left.

The NPO has no desire to give up the control they have over The Pacific. As such, they wouldn't dare allow someone outside of their trusted circle to gain power over the manufactured office they have dubbed the ”Vox Populi Senator of the People.” Stringent restrictions have been put in place as to who is eligible to run for the position, and those restrictions are the very reason that this office is far from democratic. Voting in it of itself does not mean Democracy, but NPO leadership wants the masses to think differently. The NPO wants to win people over, and by creating this office they are grasping on to the hope that people may begin to think that they are changing when they are not.

In total, there are three qualifications one must meet if they wish to become the so-called “Senator of the People.” The first being that one must “have maintained citizenship in the New Pacific Order for a minimum of one year immediately prior to the vote.” This is a reasonable restriction and is not where the problem lays as any region would want to have some sort of assurance that they can trust those with power in their government.

However, the second requirement states that one must “have actively participated in one or more official departments for a minimum of one year immediately prior to the vote.” So now they ramp it up and mandate that candidates must have been involved in the government for more than one year. Scratch that -- not just involved in the government, but in a government department for a year, so simply being in The Body Republic (where citizens of the NPO provide their input) wouldn’t meet this requirement. Getting involved in a government department probably comes with its own list of stringent requirements which only adds on to the requirements for one to become the “Senator of the People.”

As if that’s not enough, the third and last qualification candidates must meet is that one must “have served as an officer, deputy, or head of an official department for a minimum of six months immediately prior to the vote.” All of those requirements combined shred the pool of possible candidates down to almost nothing. The only people left are those who have been government officials of the NPO.

There can never be a “Senator of the People” when an everyday Joe can’t run for that office. The people who have run the regime of the NPO in the past will be the people that will be able to run for the office of the “Senator of the People” (which completely defeats the purpose of having it).
Again, one must have served as an officer, deputy, or be a department official of the NPO before they can even be considered to be a candidate for the office. If a citizen of the NPO is able to become a government official they are obviously well trusted. That’s why only those who are former or current government officials are deemed eligible to run for the office of the “Senator of the People:” because they are well trusted and will be more than happy to look away from any wrongdoing of the NPO.

The NPO wants the office of the “Senator of the People” to come off as one that was created to support the people, but the former and current government officials that become the “Senator of the People” will only ever support the regime and not the people of The Pacific. If one is able to become an officer, a deputy, or a department official in the NPO, then they have been vetted extensively and will always be loyal by default to the regime. Because of that loyalty, the people that head the NPO don’t care about their citizens or the residents of The Pacific as much as they care about remaining in power and keeping the NPO alive and well. There can’t be a “Senator of the People” when all of the possible candidates for that office are only concerned with the NPO retaining power instead of the will of the people.

If of course a current or former government official decides to stand up for what is right, they would most certainly be banjected and obviously removed from the pool of possible candidates. The so-called “Senator of the People” has no ability to stand up for the people of The Pacific without extreme backlash from those higher up the ladder. Ironically enough (or is it), the “Senator of the People” doesn’t even have a duty to represent the people because that part just so happened to be left out of Article 5, Section 1 of the Articles of Government for the NPO. So let’s call this office what it really is: a reward for ranking members of the NPO that have advanced the regime's prerogative. It’s just another piece of propaganda that is meant to give the impression of Democracy in an effort to sway those on the fence about the NPO over to their side.

Miss(ing) Congeniality
OPINION | WRITTEN BY GUEST Harenhime | EDITED BY TRT STAFF

Definition of congenial

1a : PLEASANT

1b : SOCIABLE, GENIAL

1c : existing or associated together harmoniously

Not too long ago, I took a look around the first few pages of the Gameplay forums. I tried to look at things in a different light, and open some threads I’d never seen or paid attention to before. When I thought something about what I saw within, I put it into a post. The resulting interactions, both in GP, telegrams, and offsite, were some of the most meaningful and enjoyable engagements I’ve recently had. That, in turn, has inspired me to write the following piece.

Stan Fields: Miss Rhode Island, please describe your idea of a perfect date.

Cheryl “Rhode Island”: That’s a tough one. I would have to say April 25th. Because it’s not too hot, not too cold, all you need is a light jacket.

Gameplay, by which I mean the on-site forum section for the purposes of this piece, is a place where all walks of life come together. Those in the realm of MilGP and politics often tends to see it as “their forum,” but really, GP is one of the great melting pots of NationStates. In gameplay, you can find newspapers and flag design requests, embassies ranging from single-nation UCR’s to the largest GCR’s, special events and latin motto help, history and contests, players both 13 and 30+, noob questions and “expert” analysis, and everything in between.



And, invariably, there will be posts that drive a sizeable number of us to think that the post or poster in question must be an utterly clueless moron.



The gist of this piece, though, is that that doesn’t mean you have to be an ass about it. Now, by all means – where the battle lines are well and fully drawn, where the grudges run past the bone and to the soul, be my guest and being snarky, salty, and so on. I’m not here today to rehash “making MilGP and politics less toxic.” Today, I want to address something that perhaps sounds similar, but I don’t think is the same:

“Man, I hate the GP forum. I hate it so much. I don’t even read it anymore. It’s boring, and everyone there is just mean and talking over each other and…”

…you get the idea. Here’s some of my barely-solicited thoughts on the matter.



1) Don’t forget that Gameplay is more than just “gameplay.”

Did you read the first paragraph, and wonder if I made up a few of those “in gameplay” things? Congrats, you may be browsing gameplay with a bad case of Argumentative-Neurotic Gameplay Exclusionary Reading (ANGER). You’re probably looking for things that “matter to you” (and get you fired up), and have a low tolerance for people who don’t “get it” (more on that later). What should you do to change this?



Simple. Check out the thread that don’t seem to be anything remotely relevant to you. Seriously. Give them a go. See what that random region is advertising. Don’t just hit “view your posts” and catch the latest bumps on years-old topics. Read between the greyed-out bubbles, and into stuff you’re not already familiar with. You might be surprised by the new stuff you find. If you like what you see, then you should…



2) Leave nice comments sometimes for no “reason.”

Or in other words, don’t just limit your “woohoo, congrats” to the big guns, allies, etc. When you stop into these small thread, or hell, even bigger ones, and see something that sounds interesting, say so! Odds are, whoever’s thread it is will enjoy someone engaging them positively, and appreciate your comment. Share the love, dude. You can still make small criticisms or suggestions while doing so, but even those are much improved by saying something you appreciated as well. Further…



3) Less is NOT always more.

Whether it’s good or bad, we should all try to avoid one-liners a little more. I’m not saying every post should be a wall, but it’s hard to build a back and forth conversation off throwaway comments. If you like something, don’t just say “I like it!” Say what you like, why you like it, and maybe even contribute an idea. If you see something you don’t like, the same holds – what do you find moronic, laughable, etc, help them understand why, and perhaps give a serious suggestion on where they can try to improve things. But, while doing so, still…



4) Consider Congeniality

Even when you’re being critical, it rarely hurts to approach thinks from a path of pleasantness, at least the first time. Most of us were dumb noobs once, or at least dumb kids who hadn’t yet been introduced to this site. We’ve all tried things that didn’t work out. While sometimes it might be tempting to just point, laugh, and mock the dumb noob that doesn’t know the “obvious” mechanics or unspoken rules in play, that’s how you drive people away from the world of Gameplay. “But Harenhime, everyone was an ass to me, and I had to toughen up and learn to punch back the hard way!” Even if that’s true, and not one person ever took your annoying juvenile butt under their wing to show you the ropes, that doesn’t mean that’s the right way to do things, or the only way to do things. That cycle can end any time, and it might just make the Gameplay forum a place we all enjoy a little more.

Victor Melling: “Smilers wear a crown, losers wear a frown.”

So what’s the big takeaway here? There’s a few, because I’ve rambled a bit, but I’d say the most condensed takeaway you could get is this: The Gameplay forum is not nothing but gross stuff, even if basic congeniality is often an endangered species there. If you want it to be a place you enjoy participating in more, then you have the power to help make it that way, by participating yourself in a way that makes others more welcome, excited to spend time there, and hyped to share what they’ve been working on. If all you’re seeing in Gameplay is doom, gloom, and grumpiness, consider that perhaps the problem isn’t with Gameplay – it’s with you.

Gracie Hart: Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go unscrew my smile!

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[Pierconium]

Thank you for the wall of text stating that the Pacific is not democratic. No one in the NPO has espoused a move towards democracy so...yeah? We have afforded the citizenry the means of advancement within the government outside of the direct appointment of the Delegate. Apologies to TRR that our internal mechanisms for vetting candidates is too complicated for you.

[Zaolat]

How many times must any of us explain that the NPO, is not and will not be a democracy. Yes, Vox Populi has specific requirements and yes it is more open to the Body Republic and not just in the hands of the Emperor alone, but whether either of those two things were changed in any way, it would still not change the fact the NPO is not interested in being a Democracy or becoming Democratic.

The position has nothing to do with anyone outside the Order anyways, and those of us in it are fine with or without it and fine not being a democracy. As has been mentioned before in the past, the NPO has only met demands in the recent past (Replacing Aleisyr, Removing Pergamon and others, etc) at the behest of other regions. Any other changes whether anyone observing thinks is good or ill, was only changed for us internally with much discussions in the Senate and with the Body Republic. Everything else, except those initial demands, is coincidental if it aligns with what outsiders would like and we don't care to prove this or that to anyone else. Thank you, have a nice day!

[RiderSyl]

Nice commentary piece on the NPO. I actually wouldn't have even read it if Pierconium and Zaolat hadn't responded to it like they did.