The Rejected Times

[Onderkelkia]

I don't see how preventing telegram recruitment is intended to decrease LKE's population. It is up to LKE itself to keep its populace interested enough in the region to remain there. Blaming the mods for it is just naive.

Of course the recruitment block is intended to decrease the LKE's population - it is "just naive", as you put, it to believe anything otherwise.

In the absence of any recruitment, the population of any user-created region (other than a puppet dump) will fall over time.

The question is over how much the LKE's population should fall. Removing the effects of Bob Moran's actions is one thing; additional losses is another.

[The Church of Satan]

Then you guys better get to work to lessen the losses. You're losing people by the second.

[Onderkelkia]

Then you guys better get to work to lessen the losses. You're losing people by the second.

Nations cease to exist. There may be some retention efforts that can be carried out, but any effects on the overall population figure will be marginal.

The only way to compensate properly for the losses is by conducting recruitment - which this block prevents us from doing, and for long enough that we lose so much that we will end up 150 nations or more below the level we were prior to when [violet]'s graph indicated Bob Moran began his illegal script.

[The Church of Satan]

Nation's ceasing to exist can't be helped then. The rest however is up to LKE. If you really feel several hundred nations will CTE in that time, then there's nothing you can do about it. If anything, the major blow to LKE's reputation might contribute more to any possible decrease in population. So I'd say major PR work is in order.

[Onderkelkia]

Nation's ceasing to exist can't be helped then. The rest however is up to LKE. If you really feel several hundred nations will CTE in that time, then there's nothing you can do about it.

It is not a matter of me feeling that "several hundred nations will CTE in that time". It's practically a certainty that several hundred will cease to exist, and very likely that 150 nations or more will be lost below the level we were at when [violet]'s graph indicates the massive population rise started.

What we can do about it is protest against the unfairness of a recruitment block being imposed that reduce our population below where it stood at the point where [violet]'s graph shows that the massive population growth started, indicating that it was when Bob Moran began his script activity.

We can hope that the administrators will consider such protests. If not, then the game has indeed been rigged against us.

If anything, the major blow to LKE's reputation might contribute more to any possible decrease in population. So I'd say major PR work is in order.

I doubt the impact on our reputation will be felt in the population - the number of nations ceasing to exist will be massively more significant.

You don't seem to appreciate the significance of nations ceasing to exist.

On 27th April, when Sedge made his first announcement, we were over 730 nations. We're now 678, so that is down more than 50 nations in 5 days, principally due to the number of nations that have to ceased to exist. We have 3 months of that go - if continued at that pace, we'd lose 900 nations, more than we have ever actually had in our region. The number of nations ceasing to exist will eventually stop once you get long-term LKE nations left over. Yet there are less than 200 nations in the LKE that joined the region more than 90 days ago, which shows where we would be today from nations ceasing to exist without recruitment for 3 months. You don't seem to appreciate how significant the effects of nations ceasing to exist are. Most newly created nations are inactive and die-off after a set period. Accordingly, to merely standstill, a user-created region's population needs to be replenished constantly.

The LKE has issued a statement to all our embassies explaining what has happened.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Nation's ceasing to exist can't be helped then. The rest however is up to LKE. If you really feel several hundred nations will CTE in that time, then there's nothing you can do about it. If anything, the major blow to LKE's reputation might contribute more to any possible decrease in population. So I'd say major PR work is in order.

I don't see a major blow to the reputation of the LKE. I see numerous individuals who already didn't like the LKE lining up to take the opportunity to reopen unrelated arguments and make the occasional wisecrack, but from what I have seen, no allies of the LKE have expressed concern about Bob Moran, nor has there been any embassy closures, nor has any region formally stated that the LKE is responsible for the actions of Bob Moran at all.

[The Church of Satan]

Where have I ever said I "hated" LKE? I don't even dislike LKE. The region may be at war with TRR, but TRR doesn't recognize any war between our regions. LKE is the one that declared war and TRR said "Whatever bro." But that's off topic. What I had implied is that, as a result of one of its citizens, whether sanctioned by the regional government or not, cheated so that the region might benefit from it, and therefore one could reasonably assume that there are those whom would think less of the region on those grounds. Pardon me for not being more specific.

[Onderkelkia]

Where have I ever said I "hated" LKE? I don't even dislike LKE. The region may be at war with TRR, but TRR doesn't recognize any war between our regions. LKE is the one that declared war and TRR said "Whatever bro." But that's off topic.

However you like to characterise it (whether you wish to ignore the existence of a state of war or not), relations between our regions are very poor.

Not to mention that you stated earlier that you were biased against the LKE, regardless of whether that has anything to do with TRR-LKE relations.

What I had implied is that, as a result of one of its citizens, whether sanctioned by the regional government or not, cheated so that the region might benefit from it, and therefore one could reasonably assume that there are those whom would think less of the region on those grounds. Pardon me for not being more specific.

I don't know why someone should think less of the LKE for having unknowingly benefited, even if they support corrective steps to remove the benefit.

[The Church of Satan]

Was biased against the region implied? I meant that I am biased as to whether or not LKE knew about Bob Moran's actions. Next time I'll be more clear.

[Onderkelkia]

Was biased against the region implied? I meant that I am biased as to whether or not LKE knew about Bob Moran's actions. Next time I'll be more clear.

Why would you be biased as to the question of whether or not the LKE knew about Bob Moran's actions if you had no prior bias against the region?

What other unfair prejudice would affect that equation other than dislike for the LKE?

[The Church of Satan]

Have you considered the fact that I have looked at both sides of the argument in regards to the recruitment scandal and made my decision based on that? I may have written the article about the scandal here in The Rejected Times, but while a commentary article means I am not obligated to be impartial, I did have the courtesy to imply that the possibility of LKE being innocent does exist. If I were in any way biased against LKE, I would say so, especially right here where you can see it Onder. Because I am not one to gossip behind anybody's back. That's just rude and generally I am disinclined to resort to rudeness.

[Onderkelkia]

If I were in any way biased against LKE, I would say so, especially right here where you can see it Onder

In fact, you did say it:

I might be a bit biased

You now say that this merely meant "I am biased as to whether or not LKE knew about Bob Moran's actions".

Well, why would you be biased on that question other than some reason involving dislike of the LKE? What other prejudice could you have on that issue?

Have you considered the fact that I have looked at both sides of the argument in regards to the recruitment scandal and made my decision based on that?

In which case, your original statement, specifically that you were "biased"on the issue, if you judged it impartially, would be incorrect.

In any case, I believe Avakael was making a comment about the impact on the LKE's reputation, rather than claiming your opinion piece was biased.

I've addressed the reasons you gave for your opinion in my previous posts.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Have you considered the fact that I have looked at both sides of the argument in regards to the recruitment scandal and made my decision based on that? I may have written the article about the scandal here in The Rejected Times, but while a commentary article means I am not obligated to be impartial, I did have the courtesy to imply that the possibility of LKE being innocent does exist. If I were in any way biased against LKE, I would say so, especially right here where you can see it Onder. Because I am not one to gossip behind anybody's back. That's just rude and generally I am disinclined to resort to rudeness.

"The government of the LKE said something, it remains to be seen whether or not it was a lie."

That's the sum of your commentary, and if you were unbiased, you'd never have mentioned the idea that government members of the LKE are lying. Your commentary comes from the point of view where it is expected or common for the government of the LKE to tell lies, or there'd never have been any reason to state such a thing.

Where have I ever said I "hated" LKE? I don't even dislike LKE. The region may be at war with TRR, but TRR doesn't recognize any war between our regions. LKE is the one that declared war and TRR said "Whatever bro." But that's off topic. What I had implied is that, as a result of one of its citizens, whether sanctioned by the regional government or not, cheated so that the region might benefit from it, and therefore one could reasonably assume that there are those whom would think less of the region on those grounds. Pardon me for not being more specific.

I'm sure there's also people in their sixties that enjoy listening to Justin Bieber. That doesn't mean we're talking about a particularly sizeable demographic.

[Solorni]

I can't tell if Church of Satan is just blatantly politicking or if he actually believes what he is arguing. Although I tend to think it must be the former.

[The Church of Satan]

Twisting my words won't convince anybody boys.

EDIT: To be honest solorni I'm just bored at the moment. It's a slow morning, lol.

[The South Polish Union]

So you're too lazy to use Ctrl+F to quickly find a citizenship application but regularly find the time to type out truly prodigous walls of text on this forum?

The fact that you're unwilling to put in the minimal effort to do this at the cost of your region's reputation (or whatever's left of it) despite taking the much greater effort to make so many of your posts dissertation-length is highly suspicious.

In the time it took you to misspell prodigious, you could have registered on the LKE forum, punched in ctrl-f yourself and really schooled Onder and me good with the stunning results.

Gee, it sure is a shame I don't trust Onder for a minute with my IP, especially now that prominent members of his region have been caught working with a DoS user known for harvesting IPs illegally.

I guess it's too bad that I value my personal safety above the opportunity to "school" people in an online game.

This assumes that you are searching a single web page. Ctrl+F doesn't search all 73 pages of the citizenship application thread simultaneously.

Command-f on a Mac. Correct, the shortcut is worthless beyond a single page search. A southern tack hasn’t changed NPU any. Still stepping in it while trying so hard to be clever.

^ignoring the other solution I proposed. Tsk, tsk, Woody.

Of course, given your history of ignoring facts that don't agree with you, I suppose I shouldnt be surprised.

[Onderkelkia]

In the time it took you to misspell prodigious, you could have registered on the LKE forum, punched in ctrl-f yourself and really schooled Onder and me good with the stunning results.

Gee, it sure is a shame I don't trust Onder for a minute with my IP, especially now that prominent nenbers if his region have been caught working with a DoS user known for harvesting IPs illegally.

I guess it's too bad that I value my personal safety above the opportunity to "school" people in an online game.

You are going to ridiculous lengths to make adverse insinuations about the LKE. It is wrong to suggest there is any threat to your personal safety anymore than there is with other mainstream NS off-site forums (though it can be argued that there is always risk with disclosing IP addresses on any forum).

No "prominent nenbers [sic]" of the LKE have been caught working with Anur-Sanur/Frak. One individual alone, Bob Moran, appears to have done so, and I'm pretty sure no one associated him with the LKE (as opposed to TBR) prior to the announcement on the 27th April, so he can hardly be described as a prominent LKE member. He lurked as an LKE citizen for a period (as he did in Osiris and TNI) before, after our forums were converted in January, becoming more active and shortly after being offered the Chief of the Imperial General Staff position (which was divested of real command duties due to the UAIF's existence at that point) so we could get the value of his military expertise in training and other matters. He had no administrative or moderator IP access.

Anur-Sanur/Frak is an enemy of the LKE. We have reasons to believe he has been behind a couple of vindictive anonymous campaigns launched against us. If we had been aware of the connections which appear to have existed between him and Bob Moran, Bob Moran would not have been appointed and if we had found out he would have been dismissed (never mind the recruitment scandal on top of that, over which Bob Moran was instantly dismissed on 27th April).

[Christian Democrats]

Anti-Muslim and anti-Muslim troll imply bigotry. Irreligious, however, doesn’t. Your intent was to paint OMD as a bigot.

Not all irreligious people are bigots, but a number of them are. Coming back to an online game that you've left just to destroy a small community of Muslims certainly qualifies as anti-Muslim in my book.

Where’s your evidence OMD is/was a bigot and a troll, CD?

The WFE that you changed was initially trollish toward the nations of Islam.

That said, Islam native surprise is puzzling. Iron Bark had refounded his nation at least once in the past.

Just read their comments following their expulsion. They had no clue what hit them.

I'm sooooo sure they'll come back now that they know the region could be destroyed again at any second.


Islam natives had ample opportunity to relocate and/or refound. I figured they were masochists who enjoy living dangerously.

[The South Polish Union]

Gee, it sure is a shame I don't trust Onder for a minute with my IP, especially now that prominent nenbers if his region have been caught working with a DoS user known for harvesting IPs illegally.

I guess it's too bad that I value my personal safety above the opportunity to "school" people in an online game.

You are going to ridiculous lengths to make adverse insinuations about the LKE. It is wrong to suggest there is any threat to your personal safety anymore than there is with other mainstream NS off-site forums (though it can be argued that there is always risk with disclosing IP addresses on any forum).

No "prominent nenbers [sic]" of the LKE have been caught working with Anur-Sanur/Frak. One individual alone, Bob Moran, appears to have done so, and I'm pretty sure no one associated him with the LKE (as opposed to TBR) prior to the announcement on the 27th April, so he can hardly be described as a prominent LKE member.

So the LKE does not view members of their government (i.e. the Minister of the Interior) as "prominent members"? Fascinating. I'm sure its nice that that kind of mindset conveniently allows you to pass off the actions of anyone but yourself as not representative of the LKE. Must be really convenient during PR crises like this one.

He lurked as an LKE citizen for a period (as he did in Osiris and TNI) before, after our forums were converted in January, becoming more active and shortly after being offered the Chief of the Imperial General Staff position (which was divested of real command duties due to the UAIF's existence at that point) so we could get the value of his military expertise in training and other matters. He had no administrative or moderator IP access.

No matter that he was a member of the government and was working with a DoS and the regional administration "didn't know about it." This sort of lack of oversight certainly raises the suspicion that other LKE government members could be working with Frak while the government chooses not to know about it.

I still think I'll pass on the LKE's forums, thank you very much.

Anur-Sanur/Frak is an enemy of the LKE. We have reasons to believe he has been behind a couple of vindictive anonymous campaigns launched against us. If we had been aware of the connections which appear to have existed between him and Bob Moran, Bob Moran would not have been appointed.

[Onderkelkia]

You are going to ridiculous lengths to make adverse insinuations about the LKE. It is wrong to suggest there is any threat to your personal safety anymore than there is with other mainstream NS off-site forums (though it can be argued that there is always risk with disclosing IP addresses on any forum).

No "prominent nenbers [sic]" of the LKE have been caught working with Anur-Sanur/Frak. One individual alone, Bob Moran, appears to have done so, and I'm pretty sure no one associated him with the LKE (as opposed to TBR) prior to the announcement on the 27th April, so he can hardly be described as a prominent LKE member.

So the LKE does not view members of their government (i.e. the Minister of the Interior) as "prominent members"? Fascinating. I'm sure its nice that that kind of mindset conveniently allows you to pass off the actions of anyone but yourself as not representative of the LKE. Must be really convenient during PR crises like this one.

Prominence does not refer to whether someone holds government office; it refers to whether someone is well-known. Bob Moran was not by any means well-known in his capacity as a member of the LKE (his principal association being with TBR and his involvement with the LKE being fairly low key) - therefore he was not a prominent member of the LKE. If you meant to refer to the fact he was in government, you should have said that instead.

That fact that an individual is a member of a government does not mean that they represent that government in all their private dealings. There is a difference between a minister acting in an official and authorised capacity and a minister undertaking personal business without informing their superiors.

In terms of Bob Moran's relative position as Interior Minister within the LKE hierarchy, I have already given a full explanation of that here. In that explanation, you'll see that I listed four other individuals as members of the LKE's official leadership (i.e. going beyond me as an individual).

He lurked as an LKE citizen for a period (as he did in Osiris and TNI) before, after our forums were converted in January, becoming more active and shortly after being offered the Chief of the Imperial General Staff position (which was divested of real command duties due to the UAIF's existence at that point) so we could get the value of his military expertise in training and other matters. He had no administrative or moderator IP access.

No matter that he was a member of the government and was working with a DoS and the regional administration "didn't know about it." This sort of lack of oversight certainly raises the suspicion that other LKE government members could be working with Frak while the government chooses not to know about it.

You say that the fact we did not know Bob Moran had contact with Anur-Sanur/Frak constitutes "lack of oversight".

Are you proposing that we should have monitored Bob Moran's communications to see with whom he was talking?

How precisely would we have lawfully done that? Alternatively, what other form of oversight would have alerted us to his contacts with Anur-Sanur/Frak?

Furthermore, we do not know at all whether he was working with Anur-Sanur/Frak while he was a member of the LKE Government (remember he was only appointed Interior Minister on 8th March). It is possible that the interactions between Bob Moran and Anur-Sanur/Frak were before that date.

In any case, as for your speculation that other members of the LKE Government have contact with Anur-Sanur/Frak, I think that most unlikely. Bob Moran, as he was a Marshal of TBR, moved in very different circles to typical LKE members - whose other NS contacts are nearly all within the Imperialist sphere.

I still think I'll pass on the LKE's forums, thank you very much.

Rest assured that you received no invitation from me.

I simply objected to your equation of Bob Moran to multiple prominent members, when he was a single individual and not well-known as an LKE member.

Anur-Sanur/Frak is an enemy of the LKE. We have reasons to believe he has been behind a couple of vindictive anonymous campaigns launched against us. If we had been aware of the connections which appear to have existed between him and Bob Moran, Bob Moran would not have been appointed.

There's no reasoning with that response. You can take that attitude if you like, however anyone who thinks that Anur-Sanur/Frak and the LKE are on friendly terms, or that we would have condoned cooperating with him, really hasn't the first clue what they are talking about when it comes to this issue.

[The South Polish Union]

Generally, one does not promote members of one's region to government positions unless they are prominent within that community. The fact that the LKE seems to believe that this is abnormal is ... highly bizarre to say the least.

[Zacherie]

Generally, one does not promote members of one's region to government positions unless they are prominent within that community. The fact that the LKE seems to believe that this is abnormal is ... highly bizarre to say the least.

You know what is also gets people government positions? Being a helpful and active member of the community, and helping them with important tasks.

Onder said several times WHY Bob Moran was promoted to the government, and it was before Bob had utilized the illegal script.
Bob began using the script for a month before the Mods detected him.
In short, read the Mod's posts, read Onder's posts, read the other official statements, and put two and two together. LKE is not necessarily at fault.
That won't shorten the 3 day recruitment ban, but it'd make it a lot easier if people would stop slandering them.

[The South Polish Union]

Generally, one does not promote members of one's region to government positions unless they are prominent within that community. The fact that the LKE seems to believe that this is abnormal is ... highly bizarre to say the least.

You know what is also gets people government positions? Being a helpful and active member of the community, and helping them with important tasks.

Onder said several times WHY Bob Moran was promoted to the government, and it was before Bob had utilized the illegal script.
Bob began using the script for a month before the Mods detected him.
In short, read the Mod's posts, read Onder's posts, read the other official statements, and put two and two together. LKE is not necessarily at fault.
That won't shorten the 3 day recruitment ban, but it'd make it a lot easier if people would stop slandering them.

If the LKE views running illegal recruitment scripts as helpful to them, then that is their problem, not mine. Furthermore, I thought it was fairly well established that Bob Moran's activity in the LKE hardly existent.

It is inexplicable to me why a region of LKE's status would promote to its government an inactive (in their region) individual to a position where that individual's skills were not well utilized (Bob was an expert in the R/D game, not the internal affairs of imperialist regions) and this sort of behavior should, in the future, warrant a very thorough look at the LKE's internal policies before one decides to join or ally with them.

[Zaolat]

Generally, one does not promote members of one's region to government positions unless they are prominent within that community. The fact that the LKE seems to believe that this is abnormal is ... highly bizarre to say the least.

You know what is also gets people government positions? Being a helpful and active member of the community, and helping them with important tasks.

Onder said several times WHY Bob Moran was promoted to the government, and it was before Bob had utilized the illegal script.
Bob began using the script for a month before the Mods detected him.
In short, read the Mod's posts, read Onder's posts, read the other official statements, and put two and two together. LKE is not necessarily at fault.
That won't shorten the 3 day recruitment ban, but it'd make it a lot easier if people would stop slandering them.

Pointless to argue with NPU. He's got a chip on his shoulder since Slavia.

[Onderkelkia]

If the LKE views running illegal recruitment scripts as helpful to them, then that is their problem, not mine.

We do not view "running illegal recruitment scripts as helpful", nor have we made any comments to suggest such.

The Prime Minister has given a description of Bob Moran's internal involvement in the LKE (which I believe Zacherie was wisely suggesting you should read):

The Imperial Government of The Land of Kings and Emperors did not authorize Bob Moran to use any script/recruitment program, nor had we any knowledge that he had access to such tools. Bob Moran was made Interior Minister in early March of this year in recognition of the valuable input he made during our community forum restructuring; the review of our recruitment and integration telegrams, and his supposedly manual recruitment efforts. He was a friendly member of the community, always on the look out to help our newer members, and suggest ideas for the betterment of our community. Which is why, his involvement in these is a great shock and dismay to us all.

Furthermore, I thought it was fairly well established that Bob Moran's activity in the LKE hardly existent.

Before January 2015 (i.e. before his appointment as Chief of the Imperial General Staff) it was essentially non-existent. Bob Moran had a grand total of 3 posts in December 2014, 4 posts in November 2014, 3 posts in October 2014 and 1 post in September 2014. Bob Moran lurked in LKE, as he did elsewhere.

Bob Moran's involvement initially increased following our conversion to ZetaBoards. As he was becoming a little more active, I decided to take advantage of his military expertise from his experience as a Marshal of TBR and offered him the position of Chief of the Imperial General Staff when a vacancy arose on 28th January, in order to build up LKE capability. At the time of this appointment, the role had no real command responsibilities because the United Imperial Armed Forces was in place and Bob Moran's appointment was specifically decoupled from the role of the LKE UIAF Division Commander, which his predecessor as Chief of the General Staff had held concurrently. His input was into training (including conducting a few tag raids) and administration.

After he took up that position, his activity in the LKE increased further, as you can see from the Prime Minister's description.

It is inexplicable to me why a region of LKE's status would promote to its government an inactive (in their region) individual to a position where that individual's skills were not well utilized (Bob was an expert in the R/D game, not the internal affairs of imperialist regions)

When you speak of Bob Moran's inactivity, you are confusing the period before January 2015 with the period after January 2015.

Bob Moran was not inactive within the LKE by the time when he was appointed Interior Minister on 8th March (though the two domestic ministries, interior and culture, are often given to newer and less involved members as means of integrating them into LKE politics - this is because as I've described previously, in the post linked to above, ministerial positions are not necessarily that important in the LKE - they are functional, not leadership roles). Appointments to cabinet positions are also made based on the suitable candidates available who are politically acceptable to the Prime Minister - they're not merit-based.

He was initially awarded a government office in the LKE because he was "an expert in the R/D game" as you put it. His involvement grew from there. He was not especially senior or well-rooted member - indeed he was relatively new within the LKE community - but he presented a helpful, active demeanour.