The Rejected Times

[Sierra Lyricalia]

To the Editor:

Thanks for running the extremely informative and edifying article by Dr George. It may interest your readers to note that the NS economic indicators are less simplistic than Dr George inadvertently implied. It is possible to attain a Frightening economic rating while simultaneously protecting the rights of your nation's workers, consumers, and environment. I myself currently boast a 99 economic rating, a nearly 93% tax rate (not as proud of that one ), high ratings for income equality and employment level, and "Top 5% of the World" badges for Beautiful Environment, Eco-Friendly Government, and Good Weather. While I stipulate that far and away my biggest industry is Tourism and these badges would likely go away if my economy were that invested in, say, Automobile Manufacturing; and to be fair I've had some difficulty of late keeping my Political Freedoms and Civil Rights up (that can't be blamed solely on WA membership); nevertheless these results do show that it's possible to have it all, economically speaking. Thanks for a fine publication.

Signed,

The Evangelizing Metasyndicate of Sierra Lyricalia

[The Sapientia]

I liked what Xoriet wrote. At the end of the day, we're all humans (or foxes) typing behind some kind of computer.

You just had to throw that in, didn't you?

[RiderSyl]

And this is exactly why nothing will ever change on this front.

Nah. We can leave your ridiculously extreme approach behind and still see change on this front.

[United RussoAsia]

And this is exactly why nothing will ever change on this front.

Nah. We can leave your ridiculously extreme approach behind and still see change on this front.

Agreed.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Dropping toxic people isn't "extreme." But whatever. I'll continue to disassociate with jerks. Guess that makes me the bad guy now!

[The Blaatschapen]

Dropping toxic people isn't "extreme." But whatever. I'll continue to disassociate with jerks. Guess that makes me the bad guy now!

It doesn't.

It makes you a very sane person. No one is obliged to keep adult people around in their lives that poison said life with their behaviour.

At the end of the day, we're all humans (or foxes) typing behind some kind of computer.

Speak for yourself, I'm neither a human nor a fox.

[RiderSyl]

Dropping toxic people isn't "extreme." But whatever. I'll continue to disassociate with jerks. Guess that makes me the bad guy now!

That's not the part of your argument that people are having problems with.

[Xoriet]

Dropping toxic people isn't "extreme." But whatever. I'll continue to disassociate with jerks. Guess that makes me the bad guy now!

That's not the part of your argument that people are having problems with.

Everyone disassociates with people who are unsavory to them and others, Glen. I don't talk to many people I have incurable problems with. But I'm not going to stand up and say "This person needs to be ostracized!"

The bad guy is a funny term. Just because we disagree with you doesn't make you a villain.

[Todd McCloud]

At the end of the day, we're all humans (or foxes) typing behind some kind of computer.

Speak for yourself, I'm neither a human nor a fox.

Oh come now, that was just bad. Baaaaaahd

[Benevolent Thomas]

That's not the part of your argument that people are having problems with.

Everyone disassociates with people who are unsavory to them and others, Glen. I don't talk to many people I have incurable problems with. But I'm not going to stand up and say "This person needs to be ostracized!"

The bad guy is a funny term. Just because we disagree with you doesn't make you a villain.

He just couldn't resist the opportunity to play the victim jk

[Glen-Rhodes]

Why not? Why are we under any obligation to "reform" the behavior of the people you're targeting, and why is it being cast as mean or whatever to simply drop those people?

The thing is, you're NOT going to change their minds. They ALREADY think it's okay to do these things, and their behavior is reinforced by friends who defend them. By not naming names and shaming them, you're creating an environment where there aren't any consequences to their actions. Do you really expect anybody to have some kind of epiphany and self-realization that what they've done is wrong? That's not how people work.

Feel free to take that route. But I don't think it's ever worked before. I tried to appeal to people's better nature the last time they started using mental health information against players. Obviously that didn't do anything!

[Solorni]

Xoriet of course, has no burden to name and shame people. It was not her intent to do so and if people wish for naming and shaming should engage in that process themselves. I think the main factor however which I believe wasn't stated by the article is that personal attacks are very dependent on the culture of the place in which they are occurring. Some regions undoubtedly have a culture of acceptance and even promotion of personal attacks (this can be divided into cliques within region). It is up to the leadership of regions to set standards and to lead the way in keeping personal attacks out of it. While the game has definitely become and more social, it is vital that we try our best to maintain positive interactions. Unfortunately, negative interactions are a part of life especially on the internet. But the most important thing for each individual community to do is to ensure that it is not part of their culture.

Furthermore, there is a worrying amount of tit for tat when it comes to personal attacks and this tends to spiral out of control. It is more difficult to prevent personal attacks across regions than it is simply within them. This is where most of the work should be done. It's tricky though. Perhaps a partial solution is that the worst offending regions that promote this sort of behaviour should be treated as black sheep. But generally it isn't clear cut on the international stage.

NB: I'm currently reading a book called "The Summit: Bretton Woods, 1944" so I am somewhat inclined to think along world system lines currently.

[Zaolat]

Why not? Why are we under any obligation to "reform" the behavior of the people you're targeting, and why is it being cast as mean or whatever to simply drop those people?

The thing is, you're NOT going to change their minds. They ALREADY think it's okay to do these things, and their behavior is reinforced by friends who defend them. By not naming names and shaming them, you're creating an environment where there aren't any consequences to their actions. Do you really expect anybody to have some kind of epiphany and self-realization that what they've done is wrong? That's not how people work.

Feel free to take that route. But I don't think it's ever worked before. I tried to appeal to people's better nature the last time they started using mental health information against players. Obviously that didn't do anything!

Right but as I already said, some people are good natured and don't want their hands dirty. To them shaming someone who is going above and beyond being a douche is to them just as bad.

This particular part of the article is to appeal to the better side of those who read it and might be one of those people who on occasion have crossed the line. Not everyone who has crossed it are total jerkbags. You play a game of Call of Duty and some 6 year old calls you a faggot because you just killed his guy in game. That doesn't mean he's going to be an asshole all of his life, it just means at that time he was being immature and insensitive even if he has no excuse for it.

There are times when people need to band together to stop people from harming others, these people are likely already to not have redeeming qualities, but that's a last resort to some not the first step.

[Ambrella]

Xoriet of course, has no burden to name and shame people. It was not her intent to do so and if people wish for naming and shaming should engage in that process themselves. I think the main factor however which I believe wasn't stated by the article is that personal attacks are very dependent on the culture of the place in which they are occurring. Some regions undoubtedly have a culture of acceptance and even promotion of personal attacks (this can be divided into cliques within region). It is up to the leadership of regions to set standards and to lead the way in keeping personal attacks out of it. While the game has definitely become and more social, it is vital that we try our best to maintain positive interactions. Unfortunately, negative interactions are a part of life especially on the internet. But the most important thing for each individual community to do is to ensure that it is not part of their culture.

Furthermore, there is a worrying amount of tit for tat when it comes to personal attacks and this tends to spiral out of control. It is more difficult to prevent personal attacks across regions than it is simply within them. This is where most of the work should be done. It's tricky though. Perhaps a partial solution is that the worst offending regions that promote this sort of behaviour should be treated as black sheep. But generally it isn't clear cut on the international stage.

+1

Charity begins at home. Or whatever.

[RiderSyl]

Do you really expect anybody to have some kind of epiphany and self-realization that what they've done is wrong? That's not how people work.

Then I guess I've met some aliens.

[Unibot III]

To the Editor:

Thanks for running the extremely informative and edifying article by Dr George. It may interest your readers to note that the NS economic indicators are less simplistic than Dr George inadvertently implied. It is possible to attain a Frightening economic rating while simultaneously protecting the rights of your nation's workers, consumers, and environment. I myself currently boast a 99 economic rating, a nearly 93% tax rate (not as proud of that one ), high ratings for income equality and employment level, and "Top 5% of the World" badges for Beautiful Environment, Eco-Friendly Government, and Good Weather. While I stipulate that far and away my biggest industry is Tourism and these badges would likely go away if my economy were that invested in, say, Automobile Manufacturing; and to be fair I've had some difficulty of late keeping my Political Freedoms and Civil Rights up (that can't be blamed solely on WA membership); nevertheless these results do show that it's possible to have it all, economically speaking. Thanks for a fine publication.

Signed,

The Evangelizing Metasyndicate of Sierra Lyricalia

I quite like Dr George's work too; thanks for commenting!

[KaelThas Quilor]

I cannot believe I'm agreeing with Glen.... I'll just echo his words, since they say it well, and clearly it won't sway the lot of you.

[Zaolat]

I cannot believe I'm agreeing with Glen.... I'll just echo his words, since they say it well, and clearly it won't sway the lot of you.

Because an issue is being made where there is none. If no one can see the point of Xoriet's article then they shouldn't be arguing something that's irrelevant. We all agree people who cross the line are being jackasses. The difference is, how one acts upoun those being more than just jerks.

Whether or not someone is being shamed or not is irrelevant. Not everyone is comfortable dropping bombs on the aggressors except as a last resort when ignoring and appealing will not work. It's not that it's too much effort or necessarily giving second chances or assuming they'll stop, it's just not their M.O.

You may not agree personally, but there is nothing wrong with it and arguing it is asinine.

[Misley]

I think Xoriet's article was very clear to readers who recognize the incidents that led to its creation.

It's kind of ridiculous to hear the suggestion to "name and shame" when that's precisely what some of us did, and instead of them becoming "black sheep" as anticipated by GR, people jumped to their defense and trotted out all manner of excuses. People who have been paying attention know this, also.

Thankfully, the last two weeks have been much more civil, to everyone's credit - at least from what I have seen, as I've been cutting back my activity on NS lately.

[Solorni]

I think Xoriet's article was very clear to readers who recognize the incidents that led to its creation.

It's kind of ridiculous to hear the suggestion to "name and shame" when that's precisely what some of us did, and instead of them becoming "black sheep" as anticipated by GR, people jumped to their defense and trotted out all manner of excuses. People who have been paying attention know this, also.

Thankfully, the last two weeks have been much more civil, to everyone's credit - at least from what I have seen, as I've been cutting back my activity on NS lately.

Knock on wood!

[The Letherii]

I cannot believe I'm agreeing with Glen.... I'll just echo his words, since they say it well, and clearly it won't sway the lot of you.

Because an issue is being made where there is none. If no one can see the point of Xoriet's article then they shouldn't be arguing something that's irrelevant. We all agree people who cross the line are being jackasses. The difference is, how one acts upoun those being more than just jerks.

Whether or not someone is being shamed or not is irrelevant. Not everyone is comfortable dropping bombs on the aggressors except as a last resort when ignoring and appealing will not work. It's not that it's too much effort or necessarily giving second chances or assuming they'll stop, it's just not their M.O.

You may not agree personally, but there is nothing wrong with it and arguing it is asinine.

I'm talking less about the issue of naming names, and the fact that, comfortable with it or not, the people who do these things Xoriet condemns should be condemned right along with it. You aren't going to stop this by just appealing to their better natures, or making general posts about being better people and not crossing that RL-NS line. But now that this has been written, people can read it, say it was great, and then pat themselves on the back and go back to doing nothing about it.

-Cerian with a puppet. *kills his browser*

[Zaolat]

Because an issue is being made where there is none. If no one can see the point of Xoriet's article then they shouldn't be arguing something that's irrelevant. We all agree people who cross the line are being jackasses. The difference is, how one acts upoun those being more than just jerks.

Whether or not someone is being shamed or not is irrelevant. Not everyone is comfortable dropping bombs on the aggressors except as a last resort when ignoring and appealing will not work. It's not that it's too much effort or necessarily giving second chances or assuming they'll stop, it's just not their M.O.

You may not agree personally, but there is nothing wrong with it and arguing it is asinine.

I'm talking less about the issue of naming names, and the fact that, comfortable with it or not, the people who do these things Xoriet condemns should be condemned right along with it. You aren't going to stop this by just appealing to their better natures, or making general posts about being better people and not crossing that RL-NS line. But now that this has been written, people can read it, say it was great, and then pat themselves on the back and go back to doing nothing about it.

-Cerian with a puppet. *kills his browser*

Right you take the analytical approach and cynical path (Which the latter is not wrong, I take it too when I feel it necessary). Thing is, even just reading all that, is the gameplay community going to buck up and start being aggressive to combat that rather than pat each other on the backs? If we say let's take Glen's opinion and make it happen, would enough follow suit?

We've already seen we can't even entirely ostracize forum destroyers as of late (Not that I personally take such a hardcore hardline stance on that subject). Though yes, players assaulting/harassing other players beyond the game is completely worse than a forum destroyer, is there enough momentum to actually ostracize these people nearly entirely? Once we do go down the path of being aggressive to isolate them will we also fall down that slippery slope of drama and negativity and by extension make a toxic situation even more toxic?

Food for thought.

[Canton Empire]

Classic TRT, 3 parts Fox News, one part Unibots mouthpiece

[Corvus Corax]

I think Xoriet's excellent writing more being like a Meta-analysis for important matters that every NationStates players and users of this site should be aware of, not any kind bullet directed toward anybody particularly. The Matters of topic, were handled very well in that writing and indeed, how hard core gameplayers people may be in their corresponding fields of the Gameplay, these kind things are not any kind objects of gameplaying.

Sexual harassment shouldn't be tolerated by anyone, and consequently responded and reported in suitable manner. Mental illness can be reflected through from a player's outcomes and/or general actions, but it can't be ever reason for witch hunts against a player, suffering such problems. Suicidal thoughts and call's for help (even it would get an appearance of social blackmailing by suicide canditate), shouldn't be ignored by saying "not my problem, let the fool kill him/herself" and then letting things be. Instead, actively seeking possibility to listen and talk with such person would help more.

I consider these things important, because part of it is sadly familiar for me personally. I consider it actually a little miracle I've managed survive 4 years in this game, when there has been several serious occasion I couldn't keep myself out of the site, when suffering severe symptoms of Bi-Polaric mental disorder, insomnia, sometimes heavily intoxicated conditions (not strictly speaking capable to make any sensible gameplaying activities). I've also met 'suicide candidates' on this site trying help best I've could, which are my worst experiences in this game. Most horrible thing was when I was severely depressed, still suffering also manic symptoms and trying offer 'shoulder' to other human being suffering similar issues. Feeling of inability and helplessness was overwhelming, nothing that can be called or considered even remotely as a 'gameplaying experience'.

I survived from deletion by moderation when I stated what I think about child abusers (breaking against the rules directly when doing that) and my personal stances are not much milder toward acts of sexual harassment generally (though the line can be very difficult to draw in these matters).

Xoriet's writing should be pinned somewhere due it's importance, not used any kind gameplaying weapon as a menial tool, or bludgeon weapon of a daily process of a playing the game.

It was best part of that TRT Issue, even I considered some statistics above there very interesting too.

[KaelThas Quilor]

I'm talking less about the issue of naming names, and the fact that, comfortable with it or not, the people who do these things Xoriet condemns should be condemned right along with it. You aren't going to stop this by just appealing to their better natures, or making general posts about being better people and not crossing that RL-NS line. But now that this has been written, people can read it, say it was great, and then pat themselves on the back and go back to doing nothing about it.

-Cerian with a puppet. *kills his browser*

Right you take the analytical approach and cynical path (Which the latter is not wrong, I take it too when I feel it necessary). Thing is, even just reading all that, is the gameplay community going to buck up and start being aggressive to combat that rather than pat each other on the backs? If we say let's take Glen's opinion and make it happen, would enough follow suit?

We've already seen we can't even entirely ostracize forum destroyers as of late (Not that I personally take such a hardcore hardline stance on that subject). Though yes, players assaulting/harassing other players beyond the game is completely worse than a forum destroyer, is there enough momentum to actually ostracize these people nearly entirely? Once we do go down the path of being aggressive to isolate them will we also fall down that slippery slope of drama and negativity and by extension make a toxic situation even more toxic?

Food for thought.

No, probably not enough will to get them out completely. In part because (as I discussed above) everyone has their own rubric for where the bloody line is in the first place.

My point isn't that the solution is ostracism, per se. I doubt there is an actual effective across-the-board solution. My point is that mealy-mouthed platitudes and general statements in an admittedly well-written article certainly isn't the solution. Even more than Xoriet's article, the problem is the way people are responding to it - namely, by patting themselves on the back, feeling good about the problem because they read an article on it and said it is a great article that should be pinned, and then doing nothing. The real world is full of that phenomenon with every other mobilizational issue, and this will be exactly the same.

No one who doesn't support the 'aggressive' approach, for example, is proposing actual solutions to the problem. They're all just saying it was a nice/good/well-written/etc article....and then leaving.