The Rejected Times

[Gruenberg]

The first actual case of moderator abuse in recent memory, while not malicious, was incredibly serious. And... Kryo gets the softest interview ever.

Completely agreed. That snivelling interview was a pathetic embarrassment.

I enjoyed OMGTKK's article about the resolution contest.

[Evil Wolf]

Evil Wolf, in some private logs, writes “the easiest way to take TSP is by elections.” Belschaft seems to agree[...]

Pretty sure I never said that.

[Drop Your Pants]

Evil Wolf, in some private logs, writes “the easiest way to take TSP is by elections.” Belschaft seems to agree[...]

Pretty sure I never said that.

If Uni wrote it then you must have. He always speaks the truth

[Unibot III]

I have to admit I wanted to see more from Xoriet's piece and I feel as though it's received so much praise because it's hard to ascertain what it is saying, but inevitably it ticks all the popular boxes: (1) repeats the old "NS =/= RL" mantra, (2) shows concern for people's RL issues, (3) argues for greater respect and better conduct between players.

The article reminds me of Naivetry's "Ideology and NS," which was also widely popular and also something that never really resonated with me - in my mind, it vaguely said things that people liked (treat each other with love and respect) without delving into the things it needed to as an article - like, why does this behaviour happen?... what's their side of the story...?... what in all honesty are you advocating?...

Suicide, harassment, abuse, among many issues are very important - and I've seen RL and NS cross, many a time, on these issues. But I don't think we can simply say: "don't let it mix." The reality is, RL and NS will cross paths. When you're suicidal, I know I didn't really do a good job of hiding it, partly because I wanted help. That meant it often became apparent to NSers that I was suicidal. Harassers, I imagine, find it easier to harass and abuse people over internet, where they are anonymous and no longer have the same responsibility - and NationStates makes a juicy arena for harassment because players are encouraged to identify their gender (monarchies and NS marriages) and the whole political arena emphasizes the importance of community harmony, reputation and power; nobody wants to rock the boat, and thus, often victims are concerned that going public may ruin their harassers' standing in NS - as if that would be unfair to them.

If we can't stop RL and NS from mixing, then we need a better response to it. I can think of a few strategies I've seen,

1) Ignoring it. This just means people continue to be hurt.

2) Telling them to leave NS. I don't see how this helps a lot of people - often times we're a second home to people - and I think people return to NS because they actually do have fun, whether they admit it or not. When you say "leave NS," bear in mind, people's real life might actually be what is troubling them, not NS - it's just easier to be mad about NS than RL. Furthermore, people's friends might be on NS and they may enjoy and get pleasure from contributing to NS. I know when I left NS at someone's request, it was a pretty lonely five months and I got incredibly bored. My own life got better independent of what was going on in NS - I actually thought 2013 was fascinating and wished I could have been there for all of it in full.

3) Solving these issues as a community. I'm worried that this might resemble what KRO tried to do - where people's RL problems were fairly well known (you all knew who was writing in that diary thing) - and I think it got to the point that if your life didn't sound like Perks of the Wallflower, you probably wouldn't have felt like you belonged in Osiris, and if you needed an excuse for bad political behavior, your life story was the easiest way to establish moral and political superiority. Politics and private RL issues really don't mix well; sometimes they naturally have to, but they don't mix well.

4) Solving these issues as a judiciary. Time and time again we've seen victims refrain from using IC judiciaries as a source of relief from harassment, abuse - and if they don't - the burden of evidence (meant for political IC crimes) is far too great for anyone besides the victims to demonstrate. Forum administrations and judiciary often are dreadful at responding to these issues. I know in one case, my suicide letter was put on display in an evidence docket publicly to demonstrate that I had "disrupted the community;" while in fact, I probably had disrupted the community, I think I deserved enough dignity to have not had my suicide letter on display, and frankly, I wish those people could have been a little more understanding than to have used it in a criminal case, where I was the community's antagonist for sharing that I wanted to kill myself.

For saying that NS will naturally always have RL and NS crossing paths, I think we've often failed to accommodate those paths meeting. It's always been a struggle.

[Severisen]

Xoriet isn't saying RL and NS shouldn't cross. She's saying people shouldn't use RL things against others, as happened to you in KRO. That's the behavior thay she criticizes. If someone acts like a dirtbag, they should be called out for it. Of course RL and NS will mix. We've formed some bonds which may last a lifetime. Some serious issues are discussed between people. Nobody says that shouldn't happen. What she is saying is that people shouldn't stop confiding in each other. But when people take that and run off to GP with the latest juicy gossip...that's what is at the heart of the issue.

[Xoriet]

There were also several recent cases of using sensitive material to mock others. Wrist cutting being one of those glaringly painful ones. It's not a joking matter, as I hope most of us realize. I've heard "Go slit your wrists" aimed at people IRL before and certainly have heard about it happening as a result. A few weeks back in NS on an offsite forum there was something called "#CutForRainbow" - which was intended to be a joking take on that issue. But is not a funny joke for anyone past the poster. If anyone else finds it funny, their sense of humor is emotionally exclusive, which is another point of my article.

I could have made this longer than my NS essay, Uni, but there is no quick fix for this issue. If people aren't willing to be receptive to a reminder, laying out solutions is unnecessary inclusion of words. I had no idea how this would be received. Even mentioning this fairly explicitly doesn't guarantee that it will change things to a huge extent, but I really hope that it has some resonance with the people actually guilty of using IRL circumstances to attack people on NS. I hope it has resonance with people who don't resort to that. This is an issue we perhaps all should have taken a stance on a long time ago.

[Pestarzt the Traveller]

I have to admit I wanted to see more from Xoriet's piece and I feel as though it's received so much praise because it's hard to ascertain what it is saying, but inevitably it ticks all the popular boxes: (1) repeats the old "NS =/= RL" mantra, (2) shows concern for people's RL issues, (3) argues for greater respect and better conduct between players.

...ironic.

Personally, and maybe this is just me, I haven't seen any RL/NS crossover in about a year or two.

[Unibot III]

There were also several recent cases of using sensitive material to mock others. Wrist cutting being one of those glaringly painful ones. It's not a joking matter, as I hope most of us realize. I've heard "Go slit your wrists" aimed at people IRL before and certainly have heard about it happening as a result. A few weeks back in NS on an offsite forum there was something called "#CutForRainbow" - which was intended to be a joking take on that issue. But is not a funny joke for anyone past the poster. If anyone else finds it funny, their sense of humor is emotionally exclusive, which is another point of my article.

I could have made this longer than my NS essay, Uni, but there is no quick fix for this issue. If people aren't willing to be receptive to a reminder, laying out solutions is unnecessary inclusion of words. I had no idea how this would be received. Even mentioning this fairly explicitly doesn't guarantee that it will change things to a huge extent, but I really hope that it has some resonance with the people actually guilty of using IRL circumstances to attack people on NS. I hope it has resonance with people who don't resort to that. This is an issue we perhaps all should have taken a stance on a long time ago.

I think it would have helped if you had actually discussed some of these events - when I read the article, I wasn't sure what you were referring to. Thanks for clarifying, Xoriet.

[RiderSyl]

Xoriet's article and its point was clear for myself, and a lot of others. Nothing was wrong with her original piece.

[Zaolat]

Jealousy in reality is just really a form of flattery. Just saying.

[Xoriet]

I deliberately refrained because bringing specific incidents up en masse will just cause unnecessary drama and accusations of finger-pointing. I would have loved to touch on specifics, but I don't want the meaning lost in the inevitable dramallama of people trying to angrily attack criticism of their words or justify what they said by any means possible. I have no desire to pick a fight with anyone.

[Todd McCloud]

Aye, I believe naming specific examples would have just detracted from the intent of the article - instead of arguing the points, named parties would be fighting in this thread.

I liked what Xoriet wrote. At the end of the day, we're all humans (or foxes) typing behind some kind of computer. NS isn't our jobs - it's a game, and people who play this game develop bonds that can last a lifetime. Trusting someone who betrays you with OOC information is a cut that cuts rather deep.

[Consular]

I have to admit I wanted to see more from Xoriet's piece and I feel as though it's received so much praise because it's hard to ascertain what it is saying, but inevitably it ticks all the popular boxes: (1) repeats the old "NS =/= RL" mantra, (2) shows concern for people's RL issues, (3) argues for greater respect and better conduct between players.

...ironic.

Personally, and maybe this is just me, I haven't seen any RL/NS crossover in about a year or two.

Nor have I. But it's entirely possible I've just managed to avoid all this supposedly apparent nastiness, and/or have subconsciously completely ignored it.

[Glen-Rhodes]

IMO Xoriet can write all day and TRT can publish those articles, but without naming names, nothing will change. There's power in social shaming, and that's really what stops people from being assholes.

Without naming and shaming, everybody the article is meant to target is simply going to stroke their chins and go, "Oh, yes, I totally agree. They really should stop doing that."

[KaelThas Quilor]

I deliberately refrained because bringing specific incidents up en masse will just cause unnecessary drama and accusations of finger-pointing. I would have loved to touch on specifics, but I don't want the meaning lost in the inevitable dramallama of people trying to angrily attack criticism of their words or justify what they said by any means possible. I have no desire to pick a fight with anyone.

If you ever want it to stop, you're going to need to pick fights with the people who do it. Well, someone will have to.

Part of the reason why this is hard to stamp out is because so much of our interaction, even though it is in a game, feels far more like a RL discussion in the tone and feel. It also is an issue that is hard to stamp out because people have differing levels of engagement. Some people play characters, to one degree or another. Others are very thick-skinned, or they're very good at not caring about what a bunch of people they already don't like think about them on a forum or even set of forums. So there are large chunks of the population who genuinely don't see the problem, because it doesn't come across as a problem to them.

For example, I'm a jackass in NS. But I'm also a jackass in RL. I've been one for years. I'm used to the kind of reactions I get - I don't have a problem with the line between RL and NS being broken with me - because usually, its a laugh riot to see people make assumptions about me and my life and get them utterly wrong.

[Xoriet]

IMO Xoriet can write all day and TRT can publish those articles, but without naming names, nothing will change. There's power in social shaming, and that's really what stops people from being assholes.

Without naming and shaming, everybody the article is meant to target is simply going to stroke their chins and go, "Oh, yes, I totally agree. They really should stop doing that."

I'm sure there is. But you know, it's really not my style to go around deliberately creating an opportunity for character attacks and victim-spinning. What's the point in reminding people why this is not okay if they go "omg I did this because I was driven to it by this meaniehead and you're a meaniehead for not understanding that I'm the victim here." You'll be flooded with excuses, arguments, drama, and endless pages of what will likely devolve into flaming.

I'd rather appeal to better nature and common sense than publicly antagonize people, Glen. Start a fight and give people the chance to argue that they didn't do wrong in the end, or remind people why we should not resort to levels by describing the nature of what is so casually referenced.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Those people you're targeting don't have a better nature. The next time somebody says something sexist, reveals private information, makes fun of mental illness, or whatever, screenshot it and plaster it all over Gameplay.

We don't need toxic people like that in this game. We don't need to try to reform them into internet angels.

In the end, this stuff will continue to happen because people aren't willing to vilify those who do it and those who make excuses for them.

[RiderSyl]

Those people you're targeting don't have a better nature.

The types of people Xoriet listed are detestable, but they're still human beings. You've got no right to say this.

[Xoriet]

Those people you're targeting don't have a better nature. The next time somebody says something sexist, reveals private information, makes fun of mental illness, or whatever, screenshot it and plaster it all over Gameplay.

We don't need toxic people like that in this game. We don't need to try to reform them into internet angels.

In the end, this stuff will continue to happen because people aren't willing to vilify those who do it and those who make excuses for them.

Why should I chase them out? Some of them just don't bother to think ahead. if that's how you plan to conduct it, be my guest. Brutality may be efficient, but I didn't write this to chase or endorse chasing people out of the game.

I direct you to a Unibotian quote from earlier.

Unibot wrote:
Telling them to leave NS. I don't see how this helps a lot of people - often times we're a second home to people - and I think people return to NS because they actually do have fun, whether they admit it or not. When you say "leave NS," bear in mind, people's real life might actually be what is troubling them, not NS - it's just easier to be mad about NS than RL. Furthermore, people's friends might be on NS and they may enjoy and get pleasure from contributing to NS. I know when I left NS at someone's request, it was a pretty lonely five months and I got incredibly bored. My own life got better independent of what was going on in NS - I actually thought 2013 was fascinating and wished I could have been there for all of it in full.

Being bullied out of the game for the simple crime of not thinking of the overall effect is no better than their own ignorance. For the people who do so knowing what they are doing and not caring, that just opens the door to more nastiness. Was the point of "This is what you are doing when you think you are being clever, so remember that you aren't the only person in the world with troubles and it is not okay to use genuine problems as ammunition" so difficult?

I didn't believe this would solve it. I had believed that this would be more of an eye opener. I want to solve the problem, but I don't have the answer to that question. Bullying people out of the game even using things they said themselves no matter their personality is not any method I can support.

[United RussoAsia]

Xoriet is correct, and she might not want to deal with the massive amount of crap she would receive if she chased people down. Is it hurtful? God yes. However, this is a website and there isn't much you can effectively do to stop people from being sh!ts. The best option is to do what xoriet did; appeal to their better nature, and hope they have enough left to actually care.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Those people you're targeting don't have a better nature.

The types of people Xoriet listed are detestable, but they're still human beings. You've got no right to say this.

Sure I do. I think people who do that kind of thing have no place in this game. If it were real life, I would cut them out immediately. They would no longer exist. So I would do the same here.

[United RussoAsia]

The types of people Xoriet listed are detestable, but they're still human beings. You've got no right to say this.

Sure I do. I think people who do that kind of thing have no place in this game. If it were real life, I would cut them out immediately. They would no longer exist. So I would do the same here.

It's not the people, but rather the behavior. The people, granted they act respectably, are just like you or I.

[Les Claypool]

The types of people Xoriet listed are detestable, but they're still human beings. You've got no right to say this.

Sure I do. I think people who do that kind of thing have no place in this game. If it were real life, I would cut them out immediately. They would no longer exist. So I would do the same here.

Good for you, but some people are good natured and don't want their hands dirty.

[Glen-Rhodes]

And this is exactly why nothing will ever change on this front.

[Xoriet]

And this is exactly why nothing will ever change on this front.

Toxicity doesn't exist in just one form.