The Rejected Times

[Milograd]

I am proud to say that I have never been in an NS marriage or relationship, nor will I ever be.

Same here!

Marry me?

There is but one lady for me.

[Evil Wolf]

Oh Milo, stop it, you flatter me.

[Loquacity]

I went out on a date with Wordy, but we didn't get married.

You were married to a former raider... trying to remember her name. You gave one of the incarnations of EID (when we had to move due to sudden lack of founder) to her as part of a divorce settlement or something.

Edit: it was Loquacity.

It was Biyah's fault, and I was already married.

[Carta]

Oh Milo, stop it, you flatter me.

It was meant to be a secret.

I was actually speaking in terms of my unrequited friendship and life-coach partnership with Oprah Windfrey.

[Evil Wolf]

Well, in that case it's a good thing I'm not a lady but a man.

[Small Huts]

Well, in that case it's a good thing I'm not a lady but a man.

These days, it doesn't matter what you are. Around here, doubly so.

[Tlik]

Perhaps The Rejected Times would be well-served by examining the number of raids carried out by the Right Wing Uprising before, during, and following the Liberation of Nazi Europe.

In a result that will surprise absolutely no one, save for apparently Unibot and the UDL, when RWU's WA forces were tied up holding a dead carcass of a region, they weren't able to strike out at very many regions, and the one or two raids they did conduct were not long-term because they couldn't afford to spread themselves thin! Then, in the days immediately following the repeal of the liberation, they were able to organize several tag raids, and ultimately were able to bring two raids to a full password (Liberal Haven, which required a SC Liberation to undo, and The Old West).

Pretending that if we ignore Nazism or give Fascists a goddamn platform from which to spread their hate that it will somehow wither away is just mind-boggling. The persecution complex they have rightly earned isn't the only thing that nourishes Fascist thought, and vocal, relentless anti-fascism may indeed dissuade otherwise manipulable minds from subscribing to an ideology of hate.

But you're right, how barbaric and Nazi-serving of us to deny a platform to would-be mass murderers. Perhaps we should tell the immigrants in Greece to just ignore the murderous assaults of the Golden Dawn, and the Jews in Ukraine not to worry about literal Fascists having stolen power in that country while stating on the record that Ukraine's problems are because of the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia."

... Nah. Bash the Fash!

In that case we should give up raiding and defending, and just consistently attack Nazis. Devote everything we have to forcing them to defend themselves, and prevent them from raiding anywhere else. I can think of nothing better to get rid of Nazis in NationStates than to constantly be talking about them, worrying about them and dealing with them.

That will solve *every* problem.



EDIT: I also didn't notice this part, which I feel the need to address because it comes up every single time:

But you're right, how barbaric and Nazi-serving of us to deny a platform to would-be mass murderers. Perhaps we should tell the immigrants in Greece to just ignore the murderous assaults of the Golden Dawn, and the Jews in Ukraine not to worry about literal Fascists having stolen power in that country while stating on the record that Ukraine's problems are because of the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia."

The problem is that the immigrants in Greece are being attacked and violently assaulted by people connected with groups such as the Golden Dawn. I can't comment on the Ukrainian situation, although I don't believe it is particularly dire at the moment (certainly the most recent claim of fascist leafleting is regarded to be a hoax). However, I completely understand the point you're making, and it is entirely true: Nazis and Fascist groups are a real problem that we are having to face, and that problem has recently got a lot worse. We should not be staying quiet about real life Nazism. In the UK we need to have a real discussion about the rise of parties that have had historical connections with the far right, and I'm sure these conversations are going on around Europe, and around the world. The reason for this is that those groups and organisations have real power, even if that power at the moment is often limited to simple violence. We cannot let that power go unchallenged, or we risk losing our democracy in the name of hate.

The difference here is that the pseudo-Nazi groups on NationStates do not have that power. They do not have the ability to hurt people. They may spout hate-talk, and they may do so personally, and this is most certainly wrong, but if we see that sort of thing happening the solution is not to invade them, because that gives them a platform for their views. As soon as they know they can get a reaction out of us, they, like any childhood bully, will continue to press the button.

The solution is the moderation team, which, here on NationStates, clearly defines a line that differentiates between hate-speech and distasteful discussion. This probably isn't the time or place to discuss whether the latter should be allowed in NationStates or not, but we have to remember that, at present, it doesn't hurt people. On the other hand, hate-speech, which does hurt people, and can vindictively destroy people's lives, is not allowed here. If you see anything of the sort, report it, please, to make NationStates a better place. In the meantime, please don't conflate some of the real-life crimes that far-right groups have committed with the merely distasteful things that have been discussed on NationStates.

[Nierr]

In that case we should give up raiding and defending, and just consistently attack Nazis.

Oh hey, a good idea.

[Tlik]

In that case we should give up raiding and defending, and just consistently attack Nazis.

Oh hey, a good idea.

NationStates 2: The Third Reich? This could become the first nation simulator game to be directly inspired by the modern FPS genre.

[The Blaatschapen]

Great edition this time

I especially enjoyed the FIFA world cup bit. Go TSP

Also, the NS marriage thing by Unibot is spot on. It's one of two reasons why I don't NS marriage or anything close to it (both here and in NSG).

The other reason is of course that I'm a sheep.

[Mekhet]

Great edition this time

I especially enjoyed the FIFA world cup bit. Go TSP

Also, the NS marriage thing by Unibot is spot on. It's one of two reasons why I don't NS marriage or anything close to it (both here and in NSG).

The other reason is of course that I'm a sheep.

DYP or Wop or Eruestan would marry you.

[Misley]

EDIT: I also didn't notice this part, which I feel the need to address because it comes up every single time:

But you're right, how barbaric and Nazi-serving of us to deny a platform to would-be mass murderers. Perhaps we should tell the immigrants in Greece to just ignore the murderous assaults of the Golden Dawn, and the Jews in Ukraine not to worry about literal Fascists having stolen power in that country while stating on the record that Ukraine's problems are because of the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia."

The problem is that the immigrants in Greece are being attacked and violently assaulted by people connected with groups such as the Golden Dawn.

I don't see how this is different from what I said, unless you're suggesting that it's somehow not Golden Dawn's fault because the perpetrators are people merely connected to Golden Dawn. Besides, GD has shown they're not afraid of getting their own hands dirty--see the murder of antifa rapper Pavlos Fyssas, who was stabbed to death at a cafe by Golden Dawn thugs. In 2012, under the slogan, "So we can rid this land of filth," Golden Dawn won 7% of the Greek vote and took 21 seats in the Hellenic Parliament. In the wake of those elections, it came to light that more than 50% of Greek police officers voted for Golden Dawn in certain districts.

When anti-fascists responded to repeated Golden Dawn attacks against immigrant communities in Athens with protests, Golden Dawn clashed with the antifa protesters. According to the protesters, police arrested and tortured the anti-fascists, even going so far as to threaten to release their home addresses to Golden Dawn.

I can't comment on the Ukrainian situation, although I don't believe it is particularly dire at the moment (certainly the most recent claim of fascist leafleting is regarded to be a hoax).

I know that the anti-semitic leaflet was a hoax, but it's not a secret or a hoax that several members of Svoboda and Right Sector are now in positions in the Ukrainian government, and I would say that the situation is indeed dire. Here's an excerpt of an update I had been writing as an update of sorts to Socialist Space Republic's "Anti-Fascism, or, Why We Fight":

When the Euromaidan protests began in Ukraine in 2013, Svoboda and the similarly far-right fascist organization Right Sector emerged as key parliamentary and militant opposition to the legitimate Ukrainian government. Right Sector stole military weaponry from a Ukrainian government arsenal and delivered some to protesters while stockpiling others. When these protests resulted in the overthrow of President Yanukovych, Svoboda members Oleksandr Sych, Ihor Tenyukh, Ihor Shvaika, and Andriy Mokhnyk were named to the Cabinet of Ukraine, with the offices of Vice Prime Minister, Minister of Defense, Minister of Agrarian Policy and Food, and Minister of Ecology and Natural Resources, respectively.

In May 2014, the House of Trade Unions in Odessa was set ablaze by nationalists who had driven anti-fascist protesters into the building. In the blaze, protesters died either from the fire, smoke inhalation, or jumping from the building to escape the flames. Others were killed by being strangled and beaten to death by nationalists with bats when attempting to escape. In all, 48 anti-fascists were killed, and more than 200 more protesters were badly injured. On Victory Day, the fascist government unleashed tanks, armored personnel carriers, and armed infantry on unarmed civilians, killing 20 people, most of whom were celebrating the 69th anniversary of the victory of the Red Army against the Nazis.

Perhaps I should finish writing that piece.

However, I completely understand the point you're making, and it is entirely true: Nazis and Fascist groups are a real problem that we are having to face, and that problem has recently got a lot worse. We should not be staying quiet about real life Nazism. In the UK we need to have a real discussion about the rise of parties that have had historical connections with the far right, and I'm sure these conversations are going on around Europe, and around the world. The reason for this is that those groups and organisations have real power, even if that power at the moment is often limited to simple violence. We cannot let that power go unchallenged, or we risk losing our democracy in the name of hate.

I don't disagree with anything here.

The difference here is that the pseudo-Nazi groups on NationStates do not have that power. They do not have the ability to hurt people. They may spout hate-talk, and they may do so personally, and this is most certainly wrong, but if we see that sort of thing happening the solution is not to invade them, because that gives them a platform for their views. As soon as they know they can get a reaction out of us, they, like any childhood bully, will continue to press the button.

This is where I disagree with you. I agree that pseudo-Nazi (which is an important distinction, as most of the big Fash regions are either roleplaying Nazis or are far-right while stopping short of full Nazism--either way, they have adopted the terminology and, superficially, the ideology of murderers, so I don't feel compelled to give them much slack) groups on NationStates do not have "real" or violent power.

However, NationStates is a game played (it would seem) overwhelmingly by students in adolescent years--I don't know if there has ever been a formal survey or census that looks into this, but from RMB posts and the forum this is the indication I have gotten. That places a great deal of NS players into the most critical stage of their moral development. If we ignore fascists, then we are effectively saying that their ideology is not dangerous enough to merit a response. If we give fascists a platform, then we are effectively saying that their ideology is not dangerous enough to agitate against. If we instead engage against fascists, agitating against them both educationally and, via NS gameplay, militarily (to deprive them of platforms of hate and prevent them from attacking others--this is a bit more abstract as they can of course just create a new region, but it's hard to suggest that raiding NE doesn't deprive the fash of a major platform or that they were largely incapable of attacking others while NE was liberated) then we work to stimulate appropriate cognitive and moral development in the kids that play this game.

The solution is the moderation team, which, here on NationStates, clearly defines a line that differentiates between hate-speech and distasteful discussion. This probably isn't the time or place to discuss whether the latter should be allowed in NationStates or not, but we have to remember that, at present, it doesn't hurt people. On the other hand, hate-speech, which does hurt people, and can vindictively destroy people's lives, is not allowed here. If you see anything of the sort, report it, please, to make NationStates a better place. In the meantime, please don't conflate some of the real-life crimes that far-right groups have committed with the merely distasteful things that have been discussed on NationStates.

I agree with this to an extent. I've certainly reported abusive messages from Fash in the past, but that is a largely silent process that removes the responsibility of action from individual players. A combined approach is necessary -- individual players must take responsibility for agitating against fascism (the degree to which is up to each player--I wouldn't expect the same antifascist agitation from liberal centrists as I do from leftists) while also involving the moderation team when the rules of NS are broken. We must remember that there is no "moderation team" in real life to combat hate speech except for principled antifascists.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

You undermine everything else you say - some of which is quite correct, especially in regards to Greece - by absurdly referring to Donestk ethnic-Russian separatists as "anti-fascists". They're not; many of the separatists in eastern Ukraine themselves have ties to far right groups. Nor is the Ukrainian government in any way fascist.

You've been listening to too much Russian propaganda.

[Misley]

You undermine everything else you say - some of which is quite correct, especially in regards to Greece - by absurdly referring to Donestk ethnic-Russian separatists as "anti-fascists". Their not; many of the separatists in eastern Ukraine themselves have ties to far right groups. Nor is the Ukrainian government in any fascist.

You've been listening to too much Russian propaganda.

I'm not pro-Russia, and the situation certainly makes it notoriously difficult to find out the truth. American and European media are anti-Russian, Russian media is anti-Europe, and Ukrainian media is split between pro-government and anti-government views. With that said, I didn't rely on Russian reports to come to the conclusions I posted. I mostly look to independent accounts and analyses from leftist activists on the ground in Ukraine.

The annexation of Crimea was certainly an imperialist move by Russia. However, there is no denying that members of Svoboda hold governmental offices in the Ukrainian government and that they took those offices by overthrowing a legitimate Ukrainian government. The ministers I listed above and the Deputy Chairman of the Ukrainian Parliament, among others, are members of Svoboda, which leaves no question of its ties to far-right fascist groups, including the militant Right Sector.

I'm unable to find anything linking the pro-Russian separatists ("anti-fascists" by opportunity, perhaps--I didn't call them antifa resisters) to any far-right groups. Admittedly, I didn't look very deep, but I'm curious to read about that. Could you provide some links?

[Dalimbar]

Same here!

Marry me?

There is but one lady for me.

I could always introduce you to Lady Anastasia if you wanted?

[South Pacific Belschaft]

To give just the two most prominent examples, Pavel Gubarev - "Peoples Governor" of the "Donestk Peoples Republic" - is a member of Russian National Unity, a far right Russian supremacist group that uses the swastika as it's symbol, whilst Alexander Boradai - prime minister of the same fictitious republic - has a history of involved in anti-semitic media projects. In the 90's he was editor of the far-right paper "Tomorrow", and in 2011 set up a newspaper with the papers editor in chief. Beyond that, journalists in numerous papers have reported extreme right wing views as being common among the separatist fighters - ranging from homophobia, to racism to anti-Semitism. By no means is it an explicitly fascist movement, but it is utterly riddled with members of the extreme right.

The Ukrainian government is, on the other hand, not at all fascist. Svobda is hard right, but they have only three cabinet members and then as a result of a unity deal. Calling the Ukrainian government fascist simply makes you look either a fool or a Russian partisan, and will lead to no one taking you seriously. You're better than that.

Edit: http://web.archive.org/web/201403172118 ... oral-farce is pretty good on the absurdity of the Russian claim that the Ukrainian government is fascist.

[Cormac A Stark]

Dear God, I feel like I'm in General. SOMEONE HELP ME.

[The Blaatschapen]

Dear God, I feel like I'm in General. SOMEONE HELP ME.

Here I am.

The RL Ukraine tangent stops here.

The Blaatschapen - Nationstates Moderator

[Anumia]

Unsurprisingly, we've gone Godwinning

[Carta]

Oh hey, a good idea.

NationStates 2: The Third Reich? This could become the first nation simulator game to be directly inspired by the modern FPS genre.

NationStates 3: Nazi Zombies

When NS GP is merged with the special zombie event.

[Shadow Afforess]

Issue XXII, June 12 2014.

...snip...

I really enjoyed reading the latest TRR publication. It seems a lot of readers fixated on specific parts of the publication, but I enjoyed it all.

[Tlik]

-snippity-

Re-reading that, I'm not entirely sure I was entirely clear. Basically, excepting specifics that we shouldn't sidetrack ourselves with here, I entirely agree with you on the point of real-life fascism and Nazism. It is an evil and we should be fighting to get rid of it.

The difference here is that the pseudo-Nazi groups on NationStates do not have that power. They do not have the ability to hurt people. They may spout hate-talk, and they may do so personally, and this is most certainly wrong, but if we see that sort of thing happening the solution is not to invade them, because that gives them a platform for their views. As soon as they know they can get a reaction out of us, they, like any childhood bully, will continue to press the button.

This is where I disagree with you. I agree that pseudo-Nazi (which is an important distinction, as most of the big Fash regions are either roleplaying Nazis or are far-right while stopping short of full Nazism--either way, they have adopted the terminology and, superficially, the ideology of murderers, so I don't feel compelled to give them much slack) groups on NationStates do not have "real" or violent power.

However, NationStates is a game played (it would seem) overwhelmingly by students in adolescent years--I don't know if there has ever been a formal survey or census that looks into this, but from RMB posts and the forum this is the indication I have gotten. That places a great deal of NS players into the most critical stage of their moral development. If we ignore fascists, then we are effectively saying that their ideology is not dangerous enough to merit a response. If we give fascists a platform, then we are effectively saying that their ideology is not dangerous enough to agitate against. If we instead engage against fascists, agitating against them both educationally and, via NS gameplay, militarily (to deprive them of platforms of hate and prevent them from attacking others--this is a bit more abstract as they can of course just create a new region, but it's hard to suggest that raiding NE doesn't deprive the fash of a major platform or that they were largely incapable of attacking others while NE was liberated) then we work to stimulate appropriate cognitive and moral development in the kids that play this game.

I think this is a valid point. Where impressionable young people are around (I think I have just outgrown being one of these unfortunately... ) we do need to be on guard and ensure that the facts are always laid out. However, in my experience the types of impressionable young people that willingly choose to spend time on a dry nation-simulation game are also the types of impressionable young people who are able to carefully analyse all aspects of the discussion. I do think it's important to engage each other in open discussion about fascism, particularly seeing as some of the initial steps towards fascism are not obviously dangerous: for example, a dictatorship is a logical answer to certain questions in political theory, but it is only when we look at the historical record and the full set of implications that we begin to see the issues that can lead to fascism. It is therefore important that we are not stifling debate, but rather ensuring our side is heard alongside that of our opponent's.

I would argue, however, that this doesn't happen when we raid pseudo-Nazi regions. Instead, we end up drawing attention to groups that otherwise would have stayed in the background. If I remember correctly, at the time Nazi Europe was liberated and threatened, it had all but ceased raiding, and indeed much of it's activity elsewhere. Of course, there is the symbolic aspect of sending a message against pseudo-Nazi regions, and I seem to remember GGR being rather prolific in their glorification of an odd fantasised version of Nazism on RMBs, but when we send a message against fascism, we need to be absolutely certain that our message is needed at that time, and that it isn't just going to remind people of what at the time might have been considered a dying ideology, at least in NS terms.

It's a really very tricky discussion. On the one hand, I do not understand pseudo-Nazism, and I don't believe it's all that helpful an idea. At that level, attacking these "Nazi-esque" regions is a very appealing idea because it feels like I'm doing something to combat it. On the other hand, by making a point of attacking pseudo-Nazism, we ourselves draw attention to it. I believe a lot of pseudo-Nazis are trolls who will be much better served if they are ignored and refused any sort of attention or treatment at all.

The solution is the moderation team, which, here on NationStates, clearly defines a line that differentiates between hate-speech and distasteful discussion. This probably isn't the time or place to discuss whether the latter should be allowed in NationStates or not, but we have to remember that, at present, it doesn't hurt people. On the other hand, hate-speech, which does hurt people, and can vindictively destroy people's lives, is not allowed here. If you see anything of the sort, report it, please, to make NationStates a better place. In the meantime, please don't conflate some of the real-life crimes that far-right groups have committed with the merely distasteful things that have been discussed on NationStates.

I agree with this to an extent. I've certainly reported abusive messages from Fash in the past, but that is a largely silent process that removes the responsibility of action from individual players. A combined approach is necessary -- individual players must take responsibility for agitating against fascism (the degree to which is up to each player--I wouldn't expect the same antifascist agitation from liberal centrists as I do from leftists) while also involving the moderation team when the rules of NS are broken.

I think my main problem here is that I have an issue with agitation when it doesn't have a clear aim. Of course I understand the general aim - to raise awareness of the dangers of fascism, and to ensure that where one side is heard, the other is heard in equal strength. However, I worry that simply rebel-rousing in the general vicinity of these pseudo-Nazis gives them attention that they often don't warrant by themselves. It is often hard to find even the pseudo-Nazism we have been talking about, especially with GCR anti-spam measures being what they are nowadays. If I see these regions, I want to be able to see you, certainly, fighting an important battle, but I don't want to see you fighting that battle and then as a result stumble upon this Nazi glorification. I think that happened when the Liberate Nazi Europe bill passed, and we ended up making a fuss of a region that was functionally already dead.

We must remember that there is no "moderation team" in real life to combat hate speech except for principled antifascists.

This is entirely true, but I think it's the main reason I took issue with your original post. Nazism - at least the dangerous, harmful sort of Nazism - is not allowed on NationStates, because of our moderation team, so any comparison to real life without that moderation team is unhelpful, because it minimises the issues in real life. Online, our woes can largely be dealt with with relative ease, but in the real world the solution of filing a GHR isn't available. When we conflate these, we stand on very dangerous ground.

[Casita]

Those 'pseudo nazi ' regions play with actual racist regions. They don't deny embassies with such regions nor do they denounce those regions publicly. There's more to it than just 'innocent' Nazi game players.

[Tlik]

Those 'pseudo nazi ' regions play with actual racist regions. They don't deny embassies with such regions nor do they denounce those regions publicly. There's more to it than just 'innocent' Nazi game players.

If you see a region that is genuinely racist, file a GHR. That will be much more effective than anything else we can, as players, do.

That said, I'm not trying to paint pseudonazism as innocent. I've said before and I'll say again, I don't understand it as a concept at all. However, I do not believe that in-game military aggression will do any good, and, for reasons outlined in my post, I would argue that we stand the danger of doing harm with excessive wars.

[Casita]

Those 'pseudo nazi ' regions play with actual racist regions. They don't deny embassies with such regions nor do they denounce those regions publicly. There's more to it than just 'innocent' Nazi game players.

If you see a region that is genuinely racist, file a GHR. That will be much more effective than anything else we can, as players, do.

That said, I'm not trying to paint pseudonazism as innocent. I've said before and I'll say again, I don't understand it as a concept at all. However, I do not believe that in-game military aggression will do any good, and, for reasons outlined in my post, I would argue that we stand the danger of doing harm with excessive wars.

The last thing I'd do is give the mods more power (if that's possible) than they already have.

We stand in danger if we don't fight against it, as well.

Take a look at the Nazi regions I posted on the 'liberate hell' thread. If you think such people can be sweet talked, then do it. Let's see how it turns out.