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The Rejected Times: Special Release - Catalyse's Resignation

Talk about nation management, regional politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8865
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:52 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:Obviously, if NS population as a whole was increasing, the population of Nazi regions would increase proportionally to that of NS as a whole.


That's not really "obvious" unless you make the assumption that the average population attracted to NationStates each year has the same ratio of Nazis and people who want to play as Nazis. And there's nothing to support that assumption with the current statistical datasets we have.

Hence why I've suggested more rigorous statistical analysis.
Last edited by Glen-Rhodes on Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5302
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:58 pm

Correlation does not equal causation, but correlation does not exclude the possibility of causation. Given, we already have evidence of a correlation, there's good anecdotal reasons too to believe that attacking Nazi communities directly fuels their recruitment - you can see it first hand if you join their regions and watch their internal discussions. They build it up as a "fight" against Liberalism or Anti-Fascism or whatever - it compliments their victim complex.

Or we can just keep attacking them willy-nilly, give everyone involved a promotion and a handshake, watch the problem grow and evidence mount further! Really it's a win-win for almost everyone involved except those who actually don't want Nazism being promoted in NationStates.
Last edited by Unibot III on Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
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South Pacific Belschaft
Diplomat
 
Posts: 576
Founded: Jun 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby South Pacific Belschaft » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:03 pm

You also have to factor in that the select group of far right regions was... well, select rather than comprehensive. There are other groups not included. What happened to their populations?

Then there is the issue of puppets being used to increase the size of a region - a common occurrence - and the question of spies and sleepers. At one point about half of GGR was assorted anti-fascist infiltrators.

My point is that the data is by no means complete, nor does it really show anything. There may have been a disproportionate population rise in far right regions; there may not have been. The only data provided however is not very useful, and may very well have been selected to make a political point.
Last edited by South Pacific Belschaft on Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF BELSCHAFT
GUARDIAN OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC

With the cooperation of Federation Forces, all of your bases now belong to us.

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5302
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:07 pm

South Pacific Belschaft wrote:You also have to factor in that the select group of far right regions was... well, select rather than comprehensive. There are other groups not included. What happened to their populations?

Then there is the issue of puppets being used to increase the size of a region - a common occurrence - and the question of spies and sleepers. At one point about half of GGR was assorted anti-fascist infiltrators.

My point is that the data is by no means complete, nor does it really show anything. There may have been a disproportionate population rise in far right regions; there may not have been. The only data provided however is not very useful, and may very well have been selected to make a political point.


Or more likely, your criticism here is trying to make a political point, with the hope of encouraging more aggressive independent missions, regardless of whether or not these attacks are fueling the recruitment of Nazi communities.

South Pacific Belschaft wrote:You also have to factor in that the select group of far right regions was... well, select rather than comprehensive. There are other groups not included. What happened to their populations?


It was quite comprehensive. On the other hand, pro-Nazi-Hunters were cherrypicking facts in 2013 to say Nazi Europe's population dropped with the WA Liberation, but my study showed this was just a case of the Push Down, Push Up effect.
Last edited by Unibot III on Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

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Misley
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Posts: 609
Founded: Jan 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Misley » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:13 pm

Which is somehow worse than your political point, which is "raiding is bad, even raiding Nazis--which somehow insults the memory of real-life anti-Nazi resistance fighters; oh, and also raiding Nazis definitely fuels Nazi recruitment even though we have no shred of evidence" how?
EGO·VERO·CUSTOSFRATRIS·MEI·SUM
Socialist People's Provinces of Misley

   
Editor of the Red & Black
Fleet Admiral of The Red Fleet
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Wivys
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jun 08, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Wivys » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:23 pm

Misley wrote:Which is somehow worse than your political point, which is "raiding is bad, even raiding Nazis--which somehow insults the memory of real-life anti-Nazi resistance fighters; oh, and also raiding Nazis definitely fuels Nazi recruitment even though we have no shred of evidence" how?

raiders beating defenders repetitively doesn't seem to make them any stronger :lol:

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Cormac A Stark
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1034
Founded: Jul 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormac A Stark » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:26 pm

Unibot III wrote:Or more likely, your criticism here is trying to make a political point, with the hope of encouraging more aggressive independent missions, regardless of whether or not these attacks are fueling the recruitment of Nazi communities.

Or more likely, your criticism here is trying to make a political point, with the hope of discouraging independent missions that you can't readily demonize, regardless of whether or not these attacks are fueling the recruitment of Nazi communities.

Look, I can make unproven, generalized accusations of ulterior motives too!

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5302
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:50 pm

Cormac A Stark wrote:Look, I can make unproven, generalized accusations of ulterior motives too!


Or I could dig up a quotation from you agreeing with my point a year ago. :roll: Add it to the Cormac Wall of Wisdom.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
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The Dourian Embassy
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1547
Founded: Nov 15, 2007
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby The Dourian Embassy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:52 pm

So wait. If we're going by the logic of these other fellows then there's evidence to support the assertion that the war on the Nazi increased the population of NS.
Treize Dreizehn, President of Douria.

cause ain't no such things as halfway crooks

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South Pacific Belschaft
Diplomat
 
Posts: 576
Founded: Jun 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby South Pacific Belschaft » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:54 pm

By gads! I'd never thought that. Clearly the data shows we need to attack more Nazi regions.
THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF BELSCHAFT
GUARDIAN OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC

With the cooperation of Federation Forces, all of your bases now belong to us.

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Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8892
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:07 pm

South Pacific Belschaft wrote:By gads! I'd never thought that. Clearly the data shows we need to attack more Nazi regions.

Now we're getting somewhere.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
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Fratt is always desperate for intoxicated human communication."

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Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 2664
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Consular » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:50 pm

Unibot III wrote:
Cormac A Stark wrote:Look, I can make unproven, generalized accusations of ulterior motives too!


Or I could dig up a quotation from you agreeing with my point a year ago. :roll: Add it to the Cormac Wall of Wisdom.

People change. I see you've decided to use the traditional 'dismiss Cormac because of his past' tactic instead of actually responding to the incredibly valid point he just made though. Very clever of you, redirecting like that. Now surely everyone will just bash on Cormac instead of focusing on how ridiculous your argument is.

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5302
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:07 pm

This is getting very meta- I count three meta-arguments embedded in each other. Nay four now. No technically five, since my argument is a meta-argument of a meta-argument of a meta-argument. NSecption. ????

I'm curious what readers though of the NS Marriage piece. Haven't seem much commentary on it.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Nierr
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1211
Founded: Feb 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierr » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:11 pm

Unibot III wrote:Add it to the Cormac Wall of Wisdom.

Oh is that piece of bullying still around? Wow you are just classing the place up lately.

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Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8892
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:11 pm

Unibot III wrote:This is getting very meta- I count three meta-arguments embedded in each other. Nay four now. No technically five, since my argument is a meta-argument of a meta-argument of a meta-argument. NSecption. ????

I'm curious what readers though of the NS Marriage piece. Haven't seem much commentary on it.

I thought you were NS married to someone before Harm (and later Earth)? Am I imagining that?
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "frattastan - Today at 2:09 PM
Fratt is always desperate for intoxicated human communication."

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5302
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:57 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:I thought you were NS married to someone before Harm (and later Earth)? Am I imagining that?


No, I don't think so. I did run Spartz's wedding though.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8892
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:58 pm

Unibot III wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:I thought you were NS married to someone before Harm (and later Earth)? Am I imagining that?


No, I don't think so. I did run Spartz's wedding though.

*scratches his head* I thought there was someone before those two. Huh.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "frattastan - Today at 2:09 PM
Fratt is always desperate for intoxicated human communication."

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5302
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:22 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
No, I don't think so. I did run Spartz's wedding though.

*scratches his head* I thought there was someone before those two. Huh.


I went out on a date with Wordy, but we didn't get married.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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South Pacific Belschaft
Diplomat
 
Posts: 576
Founded: Jun 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby South Pacific Belschaft » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:28 pm

Unibot III wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:*scratches his head* I thought there was someone before those two. Huh.


I went out on a date with Wordy, but we didn't get married.

You were married to a former raider... trying to remember her name. You gave one of the incarnations of EID (when we had to move due to sudden lack of founder) to her as part of a divorce settlement or something.

Edit: it was Loquacity.
Last edited by South Pacific Belschaft on Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF BELSCHAFT
GUARDIAN OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC

With the cooperation of Federation Forces, all of your bases now belong to us.

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Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8892
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:30 pm

South Pacific Belschaft wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
I went out on a date with Wordy, but we didn't get married.

You were married to a former raider... trying to remember her name. You gave one of the incarnations of EID (when we had to move due to sudden lack of founder) to her as part of a divorce settlement or something.

Edit: it was Loquacity.

THAT'S WHAT IT WAS! I knew I wasn't crazy.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "frattastan - Today at 2:09 PM
Fratt is always desperate for intoxicated human communication."

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Sovreignry
Diplomat
 
Posts: 760
Founded: Sep 14, 2011
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Sovreignry » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:48 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
South Pacific Belschaft wrote:You were married to a former raider... trying to remember her name. You gave one of the incarnations of EID (when we had to move due to sudden lack of founder) to her as part of a divorce settlement or something.

Edit: it was Loquacity.

THAT'S WHAT IT WAS! I knew I wasn't crazy.

These aren't mutually exclusive.
From the desk of
William Chocox Ambassador from The Unitary Kingdom of Sovreignry
Office 50, fifth floor, farthest from the elevator
You're supposed to be employing the arts of diplomacy, not the ruddy great thumping sledgehammers of diplomacy. -Ardchoille
It would be easier just to incorporate a "Grief Region" button, so you wouldn't even need to make the effort to do the actual raiding. Players could just bounce from region to region and destroy everyone else's efforts at will, without even bothering about WA status. Wouldn't that be nice. -Frisbeeteria

Why yes, we are better looking: UDL

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Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8892
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:51 pm

Sovreignry wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:THAT'S WHAT IT WAS! I knew I wasn't crazy.

These aren't mutually exclusive.

A fair point.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "frattastan - Today at 2:09 PM
Fratt is always desperate for intoxicated human communication."

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Milograd
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5894
Founded: Feb 10, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Milograd » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:56 pm

I am proud to say that I have never been in an NS marriage or relationship, nor will I ever be.

;)

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Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8892
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:57 pm

Milograd wrote:I am proud to say that I have never been in an NS marriage or relationship, nor will I ever be.

;)

Sadly hides the flowers behind him and backs away slowly, tears filling his eyes
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "frattastan - Today at 2:09 PM
Fratt is always desperate for intoxicated human communication."

User avatar
The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 3510
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The North Polish Union » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:04 pm

Milograd wrote:I am proud to say that I have never been in an NS marriage or relationship, nor will I ever be.

;)

Same here!

Marry me? :P
Topid wrote:the sock puppet of my enemy is just the hand of my enemy in a warm and fuzzy wrapping.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Poland can into Moscow! And space!
POLAND
STRONG!

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