The United Defenders League

[Cerian Quilor II]

Please tell me it's just a broken sarcasm detector on my part and this isn't serious.

Please.

You didn't get that as sarcasm? Kantrias, defending? Maybe one day, but it's a bit unrealistic to hope for. Still, even the seemingly impossible dreams are worth believing in, right?

:palm:

Wow. And I thought no one could beat Mahaj in the stupidity olympics.

Thank you! *beams*

Do I get a medal? Can we have an awards ceremony? Or is that just something to say when you can't come up with a proper response?

Its like hoping that you'll sprout wings and fly away.

And its what I say when an absolutely ridiculous response merits nothing else. The UDL is either a military organization with a military chain of command, or its not, which means Unibot had been lying in virtually every single Embassy application he's ever made for the UDL.

Edit: Okay, how the heck can I be logged in as Cerian Quilor, and Cerian Quilor II Posts?

[Solorni]

Edit: Okay, how the heck can I be logged in as Cerian Quilor, and Cerian Quilor II Posts?

I get this sometimes. Sometimes, the nation logged in game-side is different from the one you're logged in forum-side. It has something to do with the auto-login.

[Tlik]

You didn't get that as sarcasm? Kantrias, defending? Maybe one day, but it's a bit unrealistic to hope for. Still, even the seemingly impossible dreams are worth believing in, right?


Thank you! *beams*

Do I get a medal? Can we have an awards ceremony? Or is that just something to say when you can't come up with a proper response?

Its like hoping that you'll sprout wings and fly away.

And its what I say when an absolutely ridiculous response merits nothing else. The UDL is either a military organization with a military chain of command, or its not, which means Unibot had been lying in virtually every single Embassy application he's ever made for the UDL.

Edit: Okay, how the heck can I be logged in as Cerian Quilor, and Cerian Quilor II Posts?

I can get wings as well?

The UDL is a military organisation. Yes. I think this is fairly established. That doesn't demand that the UDL's members are automatically constant representatives of the UDL. The UDL could discharge members, and I'm sure would do if they found they had reason to, but that doesn't mean they have to in this case. The UDL has said that its members may defend Nazi regions if they wish to, although it will not ask them to. Those members have chosen to defend Nazi regions entirely on their own. The UDL - even were it a military organisation - has no right to tell those members that the rules have changed, and (more importantly) nor would it want to. The UDL is happy (at least previously, currently, and in all likelihood in the future to come) to let UDL members defend Nazis, given certain provisos.

That last bit seems to be what you don't understand. I'm not entirely sure, I think the UDL's position has been made quite clear before, but this seems to be where you're butting your head. You want the UDL to - with. as you say, the power that comes of being a conventional military - expel members for committing an atrocity. (A desire that borders on ridiculous, but that is the place for another discussion, and not one to fill the UDL's halls with.) The UDL very explicitly has no opinion on such acts, and, while it doesn't condone them necessarily, it certainly does not condemn them.

Unless I'm going completely off the rails, and you just want to point out that the UDL is a military organisation, in which case, well done. You should pass that information on to them, I'm sure they'll be glad to hear it. (Yes, FreeSoc, this was a poor man's attempt at sarcasm.)

As for your edit, it's as Rach said. Essentially, gameside communicates with forumside when you first navigate to the forums from gameside, and a few other places. If you're logged in as a certain nation from the forums, then log in as another nation from gameside in another tab, then when your browse the forums from the first tab the forums (all forumside, of course) will display the first nation, while the sidebar (which is hosted on the gameside these sorts of pages) displays the second nation.

Apparently it's a 'feature'. *shrugs*

[Yelda]

UDL members can defend whoever they hell they like. Including Nazis. In fact, UDL members can do whatever the hell they like, except for raiding.

Just noticed this.

So you can be thrown out of the UDL for raiding, but you can't be thrown out of the UDL for defending Nazi regions? So essentially, the UDL's policy is that raiding is worse than Nazism? Seriously? Call me old fashioned, but I would think that raiding regions in an online nation simulation game pales in comparison to what the Nazis did.

[Cerian Quilor]

I want the UDL to either issue an order that it won't defend Nazi regions and none of its members are to do so. Or for it to stop pretending it has a policy on not defending Nazis. Or just keep the status quo and put up with people calling Bullshit on your excuses. They might be valid, but the UDL has a history 'of individuals' being 'individuals', and so that line, valid or no, has long worn thin.

The UDL can't claim the moral high ground if they can't actually, you know, sit on the moral high ground.

[Todd McCloud]

Same goes for the embassies

[Vladisvok Destino]

So you can be thrown out of the UDL for raiding, but you can't be thrown out of the UDL for defending Nazi regions? So essentially, the UDL's policy is that raiding is worse than Nazism? Seriously? Call me old fashioned, but I would think that raiding regions in an online nation simulation game pales in comparison to what the Nazis did.

Or possibly, and I know this is a stretch for a lot of people to get their heads round in Gameplay, some people are actually just playing a game and trying to focus on in-game actions?

While I disagree with UDLs policy "no raiding" makes a hell of a lot more sense than "no defending <x>".

[Cerian Quilor]

So you can be thrown out of the UDL for raiding, but you can't be thrown out of the UDL for defending Nazi regions? So essentially, the UDL's policy is that raiding is worse than Nazism? Seriously? Call me old fashioned, but I would think that raiding regions in an online nation simulation game pales in comparison to what the Nazis did.

Or possibly, and I know this is a stretch for a lot of people to get their heads round in Gameplay, some people are actually just playing a game and trying to focus on in-game actions?

While I disagree with UDLs policy "no raiding" makes a hell of a lot more sense than "no defending <x>".

this. I honestly couldn't care if the UDL defends Nazis or not, but when an organization makes a policy, they kind of need to stick to it. The UDL claims the moral high ground, something that they have proven amply over and over again that they don't deserve. I called them out on that.

Duplicity is never something that someone on (or claiming to be on) the moral high ground gets to have.

[Tlik]

UDL members can defend whoever they hell they like. Including Nazis. In fact, UDL members can do whatever the hell they like, except for raiding.

Just noticed this.

So you can be thrown out of the UDL for raiding, but you can't be thrown out of the UDL for defending Nazi regions? So essentially, the UDL's policy is that raiding is worse than Nazism? Seriously? Call me old fashioned, but I would think that raiding regions in an online nation simulation game pales in comparison to what the Nazis did.

I'd suspect the UDL's policy is that pseudo-Nazi regions pale in comparison to what the Nazis did. Comparing a group of people who can at most wave flags evoking certain aspects of Nazi German culture and talk in strange accents to a group of people who murdered, waged war, performed horrific experiments, and caused horrific things to happen to millions upon millions of people is, well dangerous. Dangerous partly because if we go on a witchhunt after even the smallest offenders we invariably lose sight of the ultimate problem, but also dangerous because we end up vilifying Nazism, rather than the things Nazism did. Nazism itself has little power to damage today. Wholesale slaughter and genocide will always have as much power as it did back then, and that's (one of) the things we must be fighting.

Come back when the pseudo-Nazis espouse a true Nazi ideology, and then go and file a GHR. Those sort of scum are not tolerated in this game.

I want the UDL to either issue an order that it won't defend Nazi regions and none of its members are to do so. Or for it to stop pretending it has a policy on not defending Nazis. Or just keep the status quo and put up with people calling Bullshit on your excuses. They might be valid, but the UDL has a history 'of individuals' being 'individuals', and so that line, valid or no, has long worn thin.

The UDL can't claim the moral high ground if they can't actually, you know, sit on the moral high ground.

Essentially, you believe that the only two options are the FRA's Nazi-defending policy, or the standard Nazi-hating policy? Fine then, I get that. I'd disagree, of course. The UDL's policy holds to ensure that no UDL member feels pressured to defend Nazi regions. It is a compromise, I suspect many of the initial members of the UDL would have been happy with defending Nazi regions, but it came out because it was felt that some UDL members would be forced to do things they didn't want to do. You'll have to ask UDL members whether that worked out. The UDL doesn't claim a moral high ground on this issue. It claims that this solution is the best one available for its members.

[Yelda]

So you can be thrown out of the UDL for raiding, but you can't be thrown out of the UDL for defending Nazi regions? So essentially, the UDL's policy is that raiding is worse than Nazism? Seriously? Call me old fashioned, but I would think that raiding regions in an online nation simulation game pales in comparison to what the Nazis did.

Or possibly, and I know this is a stretch for a lot of people to get their heads round in Gameplay, some people are actually just playing a game and trying to focus on in-game actions?

While I disagree with UDLs policy "no raiding" makes a hell of a lot more sense than "no defending <x>".

Yes I understand why they would want to toss out members who raid. They're a defender organization. But is "Raiding = Bad, defending Nazis = Not so bad" really the message they want to convey? Especially when they try to portray themselves as "moral"?

[SkyDip]

Or possibly, and I know this is a stretch for a lot of people to get their heads round in Gameplay, some people are actually just playing a game and trying to focus on in-game actions?

While I disagree with UDLs policy "no raiding" makes a hell of a lot more sense than "no defending <x>".

Yes I understand why they would want to toss out members who raid. They're a defender organization. But is "Raiding = Bad Baby-eating, devil-worshipping EVUL, defending Nazis = Not so bad" really the message they want to convey? Especially when they try to portray themselves as "moral"?

Fixed.

[Yelda]

Yes I understand why they would want to toss out members who raid. They're a defender organization. But is "Raiding = Bad Baby-eating, devil-worshipping EVUL, defending Nazis = Not so bad" really the message they want to convey? Especially when they try to portray themselves as "moral"?

Fixed.

Heh. Thanks!

[Drop Your Pants]

So you can be thrown out of the UDL for raiding, but you can't be thrown out of the UDL for defending Nazi regions? So essentially, the UDL's policy is that raiding is worse than Nazism? Seriously? Call me old fashioned, but I would think that raiding regions in an online nation simulation game pales in comparison to what the Nazis did.

I think your mixing up RL and NS a bit there

[Belschaft]

Of all my many disputes with Uni over UDL policy, his alterations to the Nazi policy was one of the ones I disagreed with most. At the time of the original discussions there was an overwhelming consensus that the UDL should never defend Nazi's, and that whilst members were free to defend them on their own initiative according to their conscience other members were equally free to burn them to the ground on their own initiative as well. I am hopeful that the UDL's new leadership will move to revert to the old progressive policies regarding Nazi regions.

[The United Defenders League]

The UDL is not going to permit members to engage in raids.

[The North Polish Union]

The UDL is not going to permit members to engage in raids.

Once again, rather than actually address what's being talked about (defending Nazis), the official UDL pronouncement on the matter is off-topic (that "it will not permit members to raid").

I used to think that RL governments couldn't be surpassed at ignoring the subject being talked about, but now...

[Sovreignry]

The UDL is not going to permit members to engage in raids.

Once again, rather than actually address what's being talked about (defending Nazis), the official UDL pronouncement on the matter is off-topic (that "it will not permit members to raid").

I used to think that RL governments couldn't be surpassed at ignoring the subject being talked about, but now...

I believe they were referring to this.

Of all my many disputes with Uni over UDL policy, his alterations to the Nazi policy was one of the ones I disagreed with most. At the time of the original discussions there was an overwhelming consensus that the UDL should never defend Nazi's, and that whilst members were free to defend them on their own initiative according to their conscience other members were equally free to burn them to the ground on their own initiative as well. I am hopeful that the UDL's new leadership will move to revert to the old progressive policies regarding Nazi regions.

[Cerian Quilor]

Essentially, you believe that the only two options are the FRA's Nazi-defending policy, or the standard Nazi-hating policy? Fine then, I get that. I'd disagree, of course. The UDL's policy holds to ensure that no UDL member feels pressured to defend Nazi regions. It is a compromise, I suspect many of the initial members of the UDL would have been happy with defending Nazi regions, but it came out because it was felt that some UDL members would be forced to do things they didn't want to do. You'll have to ask UDL members whether that worked out. The UDL doesn't claim a moral high ground on this issue. It claims that this solution is the best one available for its members.

The UDL claims the Moral High Ground on everything. Its their schtick. And I'm asking that the UDL either stop talking through its hat, or admit that it is. I really couldn't give a crap what they do with Nazis - I'd be happy if the Gameplay world would go back to mostly pleasantly ignoring Nazis, like they did prior to the LKE-war with GGR last year. But since we're not going to do that, then a little consistency would be nice.

[The Blaatschapen]

Essentially, you believe that the only two options are the FRA's Nazi-defending policy, or the standard Nazi-hating policy? Fine then, I get that. I'd disagree, of course. The UDL's policy holds to ensure that no UDL member feels pressured to defend Nazi regions. It is a compromise, I suspect many of the initial members of the UDL would have been happy with defending Nazi regions, but it came out because it was felt that some UDL members would be forced to do things they didn't want to do. You'll have to ask UDL members whether that worked out. The UDL doesn't claim a moral high ground on this issue. It claims that this solution is the best one available for its members.

The UDL claims the Moral High Ground on everything. Its their schtick. And I'm asking that the UDL either stop talking through its hat, or admit that it is. I really couldn't give a crap what they do with Nazis - I'd be happy if the Gameplay world would go back to mostly pleasantly ignoring Nazis, like they did prior to the LKE-war with GGR last year. But since we're not going to do that, then a little consistency would be nice.

The consistency is claiming the moral high ground. Really, it's not so hard to see consistency

[Solm]

The UDL claims the Moral High Ground on everything. Its their schtick. And I'm asking that the UDL either stop talking through its hat, or admit that it is. I really couldn't give a crap what they do with Nazis - I'd be happy if the Gameplay world would go back to mostly pleasantly ignoring Nazis, like they did prior to the LKE-war with GGR last year. But since we're not going to do that, then a little consistency would be nice.

The consistency is claiming the moral high ground. Really, it's not so hard to see consistency

Finally, someone who gets us!

[The Blaatschapen]

The consistency is claiming the moral high ground. Really, it's not so hard to see consistency

Finally, someone who gets us!

Of course. You're my neighbours. I'm on the same ground.

[The North Polish Union]

Once again, rather than actually address what's being talked about (defending Nazis), the official UDL pronouncement on the matter is off-topic (that "it will not permit members to raid").

I used to think that RL governments couldn't be surpassed at ignoring the subject being talked about, but now...

I believe they were referring to this.

Of all my many disputes with Uni over UDL policy, his alterations to the Nazi policy was one of the ones I disagreed with most. At the time of the original discussions there was an overwhelming consensus that the UDL should never defend Nazi's, and that whilst members were free to defend them on their own initiative according to their conscience other members were equally free to burn them to the ground on their own initiative as well. I am hopeful that the UDL's new leadership will move to revert to the old progressive policies regarding Nazi regions.

I'm aware of that, but rather than address the larger issue at hand, Mahaj simply states something that should have already been obvious. The UDL has been trying to dodge having to finally answer the question of whether to defend Nazi regions or not for several days now.

[SkyDip]

I believe they were referring to this.

I'm aware of that, but rather than address the larger issue at hand, Mahaj simply states something that should have already been obvious. The UDL has been trying to dodge having to finally answer the question of whether to defend Nazi regions or not for several days now.

Quite. The official post stated the equivalent of "the 'D' in UDL stands for Defenders." We know that already, and it's completely off-topic.

[Vladisvok Destino]

Or possibly, and I know this is a stretch for a lot of people to get their heads round in Gameplay, some people are actually just playing a game and trying to focus on in-game actions?

While I disagree with UDLs policy "no raiding" makes a hell of a lot more sense than "no defending <x>".

Yes I understand why they would want to toss out members who raid. They're a defender organization. But is "Raiding = Bad, defending Nazis = Not so bad" really the message they want to convey? Especially when they try to portray themselves as "moral"?

Again focusing on the game rather than peoples RL response to the statements it makes sense. A defender organisation by its nature tends to defend against actions taken by raiders, from a purely game based point of view what is the reasoning behind a forced block on defending a particular group?

[Yelda]

Yes I understand why they would want to toss out members who raid. They're a defender organization. But is "Raiding = Bad, defending Nazis = Not so bad" really the message they want to convey? Especially when they try to portray themselves as "moral"?

Again focusing on the game rather than peoples RL response to the statements it makes sense. A defender organisation by its nature tends to defend against actions taken by raiders, from a purely game based point of view what is the reasoning behind a forced block on defending a particular group?

Because these particular groups happen to be Nazis, and if you can't understand why some of us think such groups shouldn't be defended, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.