The United Defenders League

[Sedgistan]

It's like Apple just replaced Steve Jobs with the guy that drove his car.

Congrats anyway.This should be interesting.

[Zaolat]

Bad speech, Mahaj. But good luck anyway.

That was obviously Tramiar.

[Socialist Space Republic]

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

[SkyDip]

Bad speech, Mahaj. But good luck anyway.

That was obviously Tramiar.

Obviously not that obvious.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

It's like Apple just replaced Steve Jobs with the guy that drove his car.

I can't stop giggling at this.

[The Blaatschapen]

It's like Apple just replaced Steve Jobs with the guy that drove his car.

Congrats anyway.This should be interesting.

Unibot > Steve Jobs to be honest.

[SkyDip]

It's like Apple just replaced Steve Jobs with the guy that drove his car.

Congrats anyway.This should be interesting.

Unibot > Steve Jobs to be honest.

Slow your roll. Let's not get too overzealous, here.

[The Blaatschapen]

Unibot > Steve Jobs to be honest.

Slow your roll. Let's not get too overzealous, here.

Overzealous? My opinion on Steve Jobs is so low that even Francos Spain ranks above him. And I'm not a fan of them either.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

So I, Mahaj, can promise the world, the UDL will be stronger in its fight against raiders.

I, for one, am looking forward to the era of unparalleled imperialist dominance in NS that is now dawning.

[Andacantra]

If you are ready to characterize my leadership based on one balcony speech, then no amount of actions could convince you otherwise.

Well, if you were going to make change within the UDL a significant part of being CoTB, I'd have expected to see it in said "balcony speech". Thus far, I have seen absolutely no evidence that such change is going to take place, and from various experiences, I know that some UDLers either don't feel change is needed or they won't dare say it (note, some - not all.) The burden's on you here.

Feel free to surprise me.

[PrussianEmpire]

If you are ready to characterize my leadership based on one balcony speech, then no amount of actions could convince you otherwise.

Well, if you were going to make change within the UDL a significant part of being CoTB, I'd have expected to see it in said "balcony speech". Thus far, I have seen absolutely no evidence that such change is going to take place, and from various experiences, I know that some UDLers either don't feel change is needed or they won't dare say it (note, some - not all.) The burden's on you here.

Feel free to surprise me.

Only the merrymen seem to support any change.

[Karputsk]

Prussia, stop speaking about the UDL as if you are something of an expert.

[SkyDip]

Prussia, stop speaking about the UDL as if you are something of an expert.

Karp, stop...oh wait.

[Mahaj]

Well, if you were going to make change within the UDL a significant part of being CoTB, I'd have expected to see it in said "balcony speech". Thus far, I have seen absolutely no evidence that such change is going to take place, and from various experiences, I know that some UDLers either don't feel change is needed or they won't dare say it (note, some - not all.) The burden's on you here.

Feel free to surprise me.

Only the merrymen seem to support any change.

This is incorrect.

[PrussianEmpire]

Prussia, stop speaking about the UDL as if you are something of an expert.

Not like much has changed in the month since I left the UDL.

@Mahaj,I'm just stating my observations.. Since I haven't seen anything related to UDL politics in the past month, my opinions could easily be dated.

[Mahaj]

Prussia, stop speaking about the UDL as if you are something of an expert.

Not like much has changed in the month since I left the UDL.

@Mahaj,I'm just stating my observations.. Since I haven't seen anything related to UDL politics in the past month, my opinions could easily be dated.

So you simultaneously say that not much has changed, but your opinion could be dated?

Its almost like you have no clue what you're talking about. Oh wait...

[Cormac Stark]

I'm bringing this over here from this thread because, as Solm pointed out, it belongs here rather than there.

The problem with the UDL's policy on defending Nazis is that it's incoherent and you're trying to do two things with a policy that only does one of them. The policy, as designed by Unibot (with others' input, I'm sure), is to protect the consciences of individual UDL members who don't want to defend Nazis. The FRA also has such a conscience protection policy in that Rangers are allowed to opt not to defend Nazi regions, at least if I've understood their policy correctly. Unibot felt that this did not go far enough and that UDL members who might not want to defend Nazis would feel pressured and uncomfortable, so he decided that the UDL would not defend Nazi regions at all -- though individual members were still free to do so.

That is a conscience protection policy. It is not a "cover our rears to avoid controversy" policy. It can't be, because your individual members are still your members. They are still sitting in your channel at update (even if they're not organizing the defense there), they are still moving from your jump point, etc. If you really want to avoid the controversy associated with defending Nazis, you need a much stronger policy -- either a policy that prohibits use of Kyzikos and asks them to leave the channel when engaging in such defenses, or a policy that prohibits such defenses altogether and carries penalties for engaging in them.

You're free to either do that or not do that, but don't expect to be able to invoke your conscience protection policy and expect it to cover your rears. Nobody outside the UDL is buying it, and I don't think they ever have, and I don't think they will if you just say it a few more times.

[Cerian Quilor]

You might even be honest about it, but if UDL policy is to not defend Nazis, make that clear and make sure no one does it. You're a military. Give them orders.

When I found out that someone in Kantrias was helping prop up German Dragons (because he thought the whole liberate to attack thing was scummy) I ordered him out, because that's not what Kantrias is about. And he was out. And Its not like I could legally stop him (I mean, I could expel him from the RKA, but there hadn't been any law on the books about it, and the Constitution bans ex post facto laws, so it wasn't that much). But making it clear worked.

The UDL, on the other hand, as a military and little else, can actually do this thing where they give orders and expect them to be followed. Can discharge people for violating orders, demote them, et cetera.

So if the policy of the UDL is to not defend Nazi regions, then you need to make sure members of the UDL either get it, or aren't in the UDL anymore. Or just say that the UDL doesn't have a policy on Nazi Regions.

[Tlik]

You might even be honest about it, but if UDL policy is to not defend Nazis, make that clear and make sure no one does it. You're a military. Give them orders.

When I found out that someone in Kantrias was helping prop up German Dragons (because he thought the whole liberate to attack thing was scummy) I ordered him out, because that's not what Kantrias is about. And he was out. And Its not like I could legally stop him (I mean, I could expel him from the RKA, but there hadn't been any law on the books about it, and the Constitution bans ex post facto laws, so it wasn't that much). But making it clear worked.

The UDL, on the other hand, as a military and little else, can actually do this thing where they give orders and expect them to be followed. Can discharge people for violating orders, demote them, et cetera.

So if the policy of the UDL is to not defend Nazi regions, then you need to make sure members of the UDL either get it, or aren't in the UDL anymore. Or just say that the UDL doesn't have a policy on Nazi Regions.

I'm really not sure it's that hard to get your head around.

UDL members can defend whoever they hell they like. Including Nazis. In fact, UDL members can do whatever the hell they like, except for raiding. (For clarification's sake, they also can't raid Nazis. I know that's already been discussed, but considering we're having this discussion again it's probably good to get the basics down again.)

The UDL as an organisation will never ask or instruct any of its members to defend Nazi regions. Any UDL member who is acting as a position of authority such that they their commands and requests could be interpreted as orders to be followed by other members must at the very least ensure that any mission they discuss involving the defence of Nazis be strongly and publically stated as entirely unsponsored by the UDL.

While I don't believe there are any official documents discussing the practicalities of this, it should probably be assumed that a group of UDL members sharing a bond of friendship outside of mere colleagueship, who have (afaik) made sure that they have not used UDL channels and resources (Kyzikos is a defender jump-point, not a UDL jump-point) should not in fact be considered a UDL mission.

This is in the same way that when a group of people discuss how they're going to have a quick kickaround* after they get off work, the company they work for is not usually held responsible.

You're reading this, and I can suddenly see the glimmer of hope in your eye. 'Aha!' you think, 'There is an easy way to show these fools at the UDL what's what.' Why yes, dear Cerian, there is. To show that everything I've been saying is nonsense, to destroy the UDL, and to ultimately fulfill your goal of making Kantrias the best defenders in the realm by knocking out your competition (you don't stand a chance otherwise) all you need to do is find a single UDL member who feels as if they have been pressured into defending Nazis. Because that's what this is about. Not whether one should or shouldn't defend Nazis, because that's a fool's debate, and we all know the winning side is whichever side Cormac isn't on. (It's one of the more consistent places to stand if you want to perpetually disagree with him.) This is a debate on whether the UDL has enough integrity that when it sets a policy on, for example, defending Nazis, it fulfills not only the criteria for that policy (which in this case is quite hard to tell due to not being able to see the UDL channel at update) but also the goal of the policy. In this case, are there any people who feel like UDL members acting on behalf of the UDL as a whole have pressured them - as UDL members, of course - to defend Nazis.

I mean, come on! There's enough disgruntled ex-members in this thread alone to give you a fighting chance! Get that PR machine into action, Cerian, or Kantrias will never win anything at the Defender Awards.

* That is, play 'soccer' or football in a relaxed, friendly and non-competitive manner, for our American friends

[Cerian Quilor]

Wow. And I thought no one could beat Mahaj in the stupidity olympics.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

[...] your goal of making Kantrias the best defenders in the realm by knocking out your competition [...]

[...] or Kantrias will never win anything at the Defender Awards.

Please tell me it's just a broken sarcasm detector on my part and this isn't serious.

Please.

[McMasterdonia]

Congratulations Mahaj. Best of luck.

[Rick Rollers United]

[...] your goal of making Kantrias the best defenders in the realm by knocking out your competition [...]

[...] or Kantrias will never win anything at the Defender Awards.

Please tell me it's just a broken sarcasm detector on my part and this isn't serious.

Please.

It has to be. Even he can't be that stupid.

-Cerian.

[Tlik]

[...] your goal of making Kantrias the best defenders in the realm by knocking out your competition [...]

[...] or Kantrias will never win anything at the Defender Awards.

Please tell me it's just a broken sarcasm detector on my part and this isn't serious.

Please.

You didn't get that as sarcasm? Kantrias, defending? Maybe one day, but it's a bit unrealistic to hope for. Still, even the seemingly impossible dreams are worth believing in, right?

:palm:

Wow. And I thought no one could beat Mahaj in the stupidity olympics.

Thank you! *beams*

Do I get a medal? Can we have an awards ceremony? Or is that just something to say when you can't come up with a proper response?

[Gavin Novawk]

So I, Mahaj, can promise the world, the UDL will be stronger in its fight against raiders.

I, for one, am looking forward to the era of unparalleled imperialist dominance in NS that is now dawning.