The United Defenders League

[Mahaj]

Considering all you had done in the UDL's channel was idle, it was fair to assume that you continuing to be in the channel = you continuing to idle there.

So when we asked if it was possible for you to remain liaison without having irc access and resolve this issue, we were told "no".

So, no, the story hasn't changed. Good try though.

[The North Polish Union]

I'm curious as to how Cormac can essentially throw the UDL out of his government and yet keep Mahaj in it.

I would think that you must have both of them or neither, since Mahaj is the CotB of the UDL.

[Sovreignry]

I'm curious as to how Cormac can essentially throw the UDL out of his government and yet keep Mahaj in it.

I would think that you must have both of them or neither, since Mahaj is the CotB of the UDL.

Duality.

[Cormac A Stark]

I'm curious as to how Cormac can essentially throw the UDL out of his government and yet keep Mahaj in it.

I would think that you must have both of them or neither, since Mahaj is the CotB of the UDL.

The UDL wasn't in my government. The UDL, as an organization, was involved (at least in theory) with the liberation effort. Individual members of the UDL are in my government because they are Osirans.

Mahaj has been involved in Osiris since the day it was created. As long as he is doing his job in government and avoiding conflicts of interest, I have no intention of treating him unfairly by trying to ostracize him based on his affiliation with the UDL -- even if he does lead the UDL. The same is true for other Osirans who are UDL members. This is a problem that the Government of Osiris has with the UDL as an organization, not a vendetta or witch hunt against individual UDL members who are also Osirans.

[Biyah]

Considering all you had done in the UDL's channel was idle, it was fair to assume that you continuing to be in the channel = you continuing to idle there.

So when we asked if it was possible for you to remain liaison without having irc access and resolve this issue, we were told "no".

So, no, the story hasn't changed. Good try though.

You just did change it, though. And you did it between two posts.

Point 1:

We've been told that it is absolutely essential that Biyah idles in the UDL channel.

Point 2:

So when we asked if it was possible for you to remain liaison without having irc access and resolve this issue (snip)

Bold mine.
Point 1, you try to say you didn't want me there all the time. Okay, that would have been a reasonable request - if you'd brought it up before relations were cut. I would have had no issue leaving from time to time.
Point 2 (and indeed, this is what you actually asked before relations were cut), you want me never to be in that room at all even if I'm liaison.

I'm sensing an imbalance. No idling VS persona non-grata on IRC. And remember, I’d been there for… quite a while. Timing, eh?

And before you start working your way like clockwork through the rest of the bullshite reasons:
-The issue of my masking of Laison was brought up as an issue the next day after relations were cut and you were removed from the strategy room. Nobody ever told me there was such a thing, I surely didn't go hunting the UDL forums for it. What was your reply in query again, when I brought this fact up? Oh, yes.

06:11.34pm <Biyah`Tomb> I would like to see logs of where I was told there was a Laison masking, or that I Should go sign up for one.
06:12.07pm <Biyah`Tomb> Such was -never- brought up. And it was never mnetioned as a reason for my removal. All that was that 'lieutenants complained'.
06:17.52pm <Mahaj> admittedly i didn't entirely realise you were officially a liaison
06:18.07pm <Biyah`Tomb> oh bullshit, but nice story
06:18.21pm <Biyah`Tomb> now you do. Am I still persona non grata?
06:18.36pm <Mahaj> well, yeah
06:18.44pm <Mahaj> i mean, cormac did just end udl-osi relations

Note that this was was post-relation cut. For those of you reading along, this was a query sent to Maj after the masking was mentioned in #osiris as a reason for removal, during the morning-after fallout.

So anyway, something that was announced (in the channel no less), and Tim had signed off on – you didn’t realize. I’ll assume you’re telling the truth, because I couldn’t prove otherwise. Once you DID realize it, though, you went on ahead and did your thing. And you say we lack diplomacy, eh? heh,


-The issue of a ‘security breach’ was actually brought up first by me, the first time you asked me to leave without a single reason

Let’s see, how did that original conversation go... Oh yes. You asked me to leave without reason. I poked you to find out why. After coaxing, you said there had been a complaint from a lieutenant, because of my ‘behavior’ in channel. You were (again) informed I was the liaison, and there would be consequences if I was removed. I then mentioned that I had said nothing in that channel which was offensive, in fact I’d barely said anything at all, and mentioned that I wouldn’t leak security information. I then asked if all was well, you said it was all good…. We both went our separate ways/

The next day, I get a ping from Tim that a certain person (or lieutenant) didn't want me there. I think this is about the time things got interesting. The next morning, stories (yours, primarily) started changing.



Most of these ‘new’ reasons came out in #osiris the morning after relations were cut, before either of us had released a statement. We had not issued a statement the night before because we were told UDL would discuss the situation again. However, instead of discussing the situation in an attempt to find a resolution, it really looks like you spent that session dreaming up reasons why I shouldn't be there for later propaganda purposes. Reasons that were not told to Cormac, Asta or I until after relations were cut.

...Nice try though.

~B

[Biyah]

After reading my last post, it really comes home to me that this is a worthless conversation. I think I'll boil all this down, k?

It's your room, you have the ability to say I can't be there. It's hypocritical, given how long I'd already been there. And it's disgusting that you keep 'adding' reasons, especially those that could have been resolved had we been told pre-cut. But whatever.

This is also a great example of misdirection. You've pretty much ignored the bulk of our statement and focused on me. Probably because I'm more contraversial, and it's easy to attempt pot-shots while ignoring the real issues.

This entire situation is standard faire in dealing with UDL high command. Stories change, reasons change, and UDL isn't effective enough for us to deal with that. So you won, I'm not in your room. And, we also won, we don't have to deal with you and yours for the sake of 5 - 10 proven updaters, and 10-20 more phantom updaters you insist exist. Armies like the Spritus Defense Force and FRA are both more professional, and a lot less prone to trying to take over strategic operations - we'd rather work with them.

I think that about sums it up.

~B

[Mahaj]

After reading my last post, it really comes home to me that this is a worthless conversation. I think I'll boil all this down, k?

It's your room, you have the ability to say I can't be there. It's hypocritical, given how long I'd already been there. And it's disgusting that you keep 'adding' reasons, especially those that could have been resolved had we been told pre-cut. But whatever.

This is also a great example of misdirection. You've pretty much ignored the bulk of our statement and focused on me. Probably because I'm more contraversial, and it's easy to attempt pot-shots while ignoring the real issues.

This entire situation is standard faire in dealing with UDL high command. Stories change, reasons change, and UDL isn't effective enough for us to deal with that. So you won, I'm not in your room. And, we also won, we don't have to deal with you and yours for the sake of 5 - 10 proven updaters, and 10-20 more phantom updaters you insist exist. Armies like the Spritus Defense Force and FRA are both more professional, and a lot less prone to trying to take over strategic operations - we'd rather work with them.

I think that about sums it up.

~B

Very well then.

[The Saturnian Republic]

Osiris really knows how to dig themselves into holes. At least to my untrained eye, it seems a poor idea to call the leadership of a major player in the liberation efforts of your own region children. Why, exactly, was it the Osirian government's first action to sever ties with the UDL, instead of trying to salvage the situation diplomatically?

[The North Polish Union]

Osiris really knows how to dig themselves into holes. At least to my untrained eye, it seems a poor idea to call the leadership of a major player in the liberation efforts of your own region children. Why, exactly, was it the Osirian government's first action to sever ties with the UDL, instead of trying to salvage the situation diplomatically?

Well apparently they tried to work it out diplomatically, but failed because they weren't willing to compromise.

[Asuka Langley Soryu]

Osiris really knows how to dig themselves into holes. At least to my untrained eye, it seems a poor idea to call the leadership of a major player in the liberation efforts of your own region children. Why, exactly, was it the Osirian government's first action to sever ties with the UDL, instead of trying to salvage the situation diplomatically?

Well apparently they tried to work it out diplomatically, but failed because they weren't willing to compromise.

their biggest problem, they can't compromise

[Corporation de Apple]

Well apparently they tried to work it out diplomatically, but failed because they weren't willing to compromise.

their biggest problem, they can't compromise

Not that GV knows anything about that...

[Douria]

I find it strange(and wonderful) that Osiris is willing to forgo ANY updaters, just because UDL wasn't willing to let him log their channel(and that's what this is all about).

That is the real issue, Biyah idles in every channel he can so he can harvest the logs for intel later(and a few other fairly terrible things that are best not discussed here), almost everyone knows that, so I don't know why we're dancing around it.

If UDL doesn't want him in their channel so he can harvest as much intel as he can from them, I don't see the issue. I guarantee if he was allowed to idle there longer you'd start seeing logs from the channel popping up all over the place.

That said, again, it's really nice to see Cormac being Cormac, and Biyah being Biyah. I'm just surprised they haven't alienated anyone else yet. Say whatever you want about who "deserves" to be given the Delegacy in Osiris. But I know Osiris is much better off without those guys in charge. I just hope the rest of the community figures it out sooner rather than 6 months into this government change.

[Solm]

I'm sorry, but there's no outlandish propaganda going on here. I don't care what conversations went on before in the lame attempt at diplomacy. The problem is simple, the solution obvious. Biyah is a security risk and shouldn't be allowed to idle in our secure channel, and should have never been a liaison in the first place. The UDL has made this clear. The solution is to assign a new liaison, someone like Neavilos. This is obviously unacceptable to Osiris, and thus we are in the current predicament. Balder and TNI and PSSP were only brought up after the fact and in response to individual member's posts. The UDL as an organization wants to defend, nothing more. This debate helps nobody but GV.

[Karpathos]

Maybe the raiders will help Cormac get back home. Oh wait, they're the militant arm of GV.

[Cerian Quilor]

I find it strange(and wonderful) that Osiris is willing to forgo ANY updaters, just because UDL wasn't willing to let him log their channel(and that's what this is all about).

That is the real issue, Biyah idles in every channel he can so he can harvest the logs for intel later(and a few other fairly terrible things that are best not discussed here), almost everyone knows that, so I don't know why we're dancing around it.

If UDL doesn't want him in their channel so he can harvest as much intel as he can from them, I don't see the issue. I guarantee if he was allowed to idle there longer you'd start seeing logs from the channel popping up all over the place.

That said, again, it's really nice to see Cormac being Cormac, and Biyah being Biyah. I'm just surprised they haven't alienated anyone else yet. Say whatever you want about who "deserves" to be given the Delegacy in Osiris. But I know Osiris is much better off without those guys in charge. I just hope the rest of the community figures it out sooner rather than 6 months into this government change.

Whatever else, Osiris certainly isn't better off being subjugated to the will of Gatesville, however.

[The United Defenders League]

It has now come to our attention that some members of Balder have taken offense to certain statements by the UDL regarding Balder.

The UDL apologizes for any offense that was taken by these members from our statements. We hope to be able to put this situation behind us as we move forward to the goal of freeing Osiris.

The UDL hopes that Balder will indeed prosecute its offending members as soon as possible.

[Nivian]

It has now come to our attention that some members of Balder have taken offense to certain statements by the UDL regarding Balder.

The UDL apologizes for any offense that was taken by these members from our statements. We hope to be able to put this situation behind us as we move forward to the goal of freeing Osiris.

The UDL hopes that Balder will indeed prosecute its offending members as soon as possible.

Apologizing for offense taken is not actually apologizing for doing the thing that caused the offense in the first place.

And then your last sentence undid the entire faux-apology in the first place.

#ClassicUDL

[Mahaj]

The UDL anticipates that it wouldn't be possible to do so while the current situation is ongoing in Osiris, and has no expectation of it happening. We no longer believe that this view is unreasonable.

It is our hope that those Balder citizens who have been involved in attacking Osiris will be punished after the coup is over, that is, when it becomes possible.

[Nivian]

That's not the point. You make a faux-apology, then you make it worse by continuing to harp in refrain on Balderian citizens.

[Mahaj]

That's not the point. You make a faux-apology, then you make it worse by continuing to harp in refrain on Balderian citizens.

We are not harping on Balderian citizens.

The UDL has no issue with the timings of Balderian actions.

[Biyah]

SNip.

The time to mention this would have been multiple weeks ago

[The United Defenders League]

Again, the UDL *is* sincerely sorry that our statements have caused offense in Balder.

That was not the intent of the statement. Our intent was to refute the lies issued by the government of Osiris.

We are sorry about our statements regarding Balder, and will work to ensure similar statements do not appear in the future.

[Solm]

SNip.

The time to mention this would have been multiple weeks ago

I'm not debating that. This all should have been handled much earlier. When you first came in, I was aware that Tim invited you in, and was perfectly okay with you being allowed in the IRC because I was under the impression that you had business to do. But then after you just started idling for days, that became a no-no. I breached the subject with Mahaj a few days with you in the channel, and Ravania had done so the first day you were in there. We should have then asked you why you were there, and then asked you to leave unless you had business to conduct. There was absolutely no reason for you to idle in the channel any longer. Or if such couldn't work out, Osiris should have (and still can) assigned a different liaison, like Neavilos, in your stead. But, alas, things were allowed to fester and then when the subject of your unnecessary presence in #udl was finally breached, both sides became heated and quickly boiled into something far beyond what should have happened. And then skip a few days and it all becomes personal and the original issue lost in the steam.

[North East Somerset]

Again, the UDL *is* sincerely sorry that our statements have caused offense in Balder.

That was not the intent of the statement. Our intent was to refute the lies issued by the government of Osiris.

We are sorry about our statements regarding Balder, and will work to ensure similar statements do not appear in the future.

So, just to clarify on Balder's behalf - you are now apologising for both the original statements against Balder, and your more recent statement earlier today which was apparently an attempt at an apology, but wherein you actually turned it into another criticism with the final sentence

[The United Defenders League]

Again, the UDL *is* sincerely sorry that our statements have caused offense in Balder.

That was not the intent of the statement. Our intent was to refute the lies issued by the government of Osiris.

We are sorry about our statements regarding Balder, and will work to ensure similar statements do not appear in the future.

So, just to clarify on Balder's behalf - you are now apologising for both the original statements against Balder, and your more recent statement earlier today which was apparently an attempt at an apology, but wherein you actually turned it into another criticism with the final sentence

Indeed.