Embassy of The North Pacific

[Mlakhavia]

Jesus, TL piled hard

To be expected. They're currently trying to prove to TNP that they aren't just using them for WA votes, given recent events.

[Quebecshire]

Jesus, TL piled hard

Yes, thank you for noticing, we're quite good at our jobs.

Jesus, TL piled hard

To be expected. They're currently trying to prove to TNP that they aren't just using them for WA votes, given recent events.

Goalpost moving! Are we getting to goalpost moving yet? "The apology was insincere. Oh, you helped them with their material agenda as well? Well that's insinere and just to try to prove something to them." <- Are we there yet?

Raiders when someone helps their embassy partners: [shocked pikachu].

That pile was what we produced in ~7 hours between in advance people and updaters I had stay there afterward. We don't tend to half ass things, so what we could get in that time period and could feasibly send, we sent. From what I could tell, The North Pacific was very appreciative for our efforts, because shockingly, if you follow up a screw-up with someone by helping them with something they care about (as opposed to like, I don't know, raiding their treaty ally every other Monday for a year? I wonder whose orgs would do that), it usually gets you somewhere.

We're also in a somewhat unique position where we could afford to do that because of Concord's very strong pre-Frontier endorsement security. But to the point, I doubt TNP sees it as empty posturing, though you're welcome to ask them.

[Lord Dominator]

As TW’s first and permanent despot I certainly appreciated the endos

[Quebecshire]

As TW’s first and permanent despot I certainly appreciated the endos

You have our congratulations for winning 23 (?) elections in a row, of course.

[Jar Wattinree]

As TW’s first and permanent despot I certainly appreciated the endos

Raiders?

In my Independent region?

It's more likely than you think.

Because Independence doesn't care if you're a Raider or a Defender, it's purposefully straddling the middle for its own purposes.

[Lord Dominator]

As TW’s first and permanent despot I certainly appreciated the endos

Raiders?

In my Independent region?

It's more likely than you think.

It’s certainly very likely when I’m around

[Attempted Socialism]

Jesus, TL piled hard

Yes, thank you for noticing, we're quite good at our jobs.

To be expected. They're currently trying to prove to TNP that they aren't just using them for WA votes, given recent events.

Goalpost moving! Are we getting to goalpost moving yet? "The apology was insincere. Oh, you helped them with their material agenda as well? Well that's insinere and just to try to prove something to them." <- Are we there yet?

Raiders when someone helps their embassy partners: [shocked pikachu].

That pile was what we produced in ~7 hours between in advance people and updaters I had stay there afterward. We don't tend to half ass things, so what we could get in that time period and could feasibly send, we sent. From what I could tell, The North Pacific was very appreciative for our efforts, because shockingly, if you follow up a screw-up with someone by helping them with something they care about (as opposed to like, I don't know, raiding their treaty ally every other Monday for a year? I wonder whose orgs would do that), it usually gets you somewhere.

We're also in a somewhat unique position where we could afford to do that because of Concord's very strong pre-Frontier endorsement security. But to the point, I doubt TNP sees it as empty posturing, though you're welcome to ask them.

To quote from GRR Martin for a second: "Words are wind, I put my trust in deeds." Apologies are just words; promises of rapprochement. Actions afterwards are what show whether those words were sincere. A dedicated show of assistance towards our agenda is an act that shows clear intent of rapprochement. Bluntly, if I am to look for things that prove that certain defender organisations are sincere in their apologies and that they aren't just using us for our WA votes, this is an example of what I would look for. Continued rapprochement in this style would in time prove to even a curmudgeon like me that the apology was sincere, led to internal reevaluation of what went wrong, firm steps towards rectifying those errors in judgement, and a dedicated effort towards rebuilding trust. I, personally, would need more than this, but I am not so blind as to not recognise when someone is doing us a solid.

[Mlakhavia]

Raiders when someone helps their embassy partners: [shocked pikachu].

I'm perfectly aware that you want to make amends, Queb. At the same time, I was making an objective statement: this is precisely what you want to prove and it is precisely what you are doing. It's quite hilarious that the forum figurehead of neomoralism is so insecure as to the righteousness of his moral crusade in protecting barely-active backwaters that he takes passive commentary and observation as an attack on his intentions.

What you did was extremely unbecoming of defending organisations -- even I can see that. The way in which you handled the fallout, furthermore, was almost worse than the original offense, so much that you had to backtrack once you were caught with your hand in the cookie jar. You are sorry because you were caught. The worst part is that what you did is perfectly in line with your polarising, no-quarter-spared agenda. Modern defending ultimately boils down to bullying and cajoling participating members of the gameplay community so that inactive native regions get to cling onto their RMBs and names (and the people who raid them don't get badges): this is the consequence of all that.

[Quebecshire]

To quote from GRR Martin for a second: "Words are wind, I put my trust in deeds." Apologies are just words; promises of rapprochement. Actions afterwards are what show whether those words were sincere. A dedicated show of assistance towards our agenda is an act that shows clear intent of rapprochement. Bluntly, if I am to look for things that prove that certain defender organisations are sincere in their apologies and that they aren't just using us for our WA votes, this is an example of what I would look for. Continued rapprochement in this style would in time prove to even a curmudgeon like me that the apology was sincere, led to internal reevaluation of what went wrong, firm steps towards rectifying those errors in judgement, and a dedicated effort towards rebuilding trust. I, personally, would need more than this, but I am not so blind as to not recognise when someone is doing us a solid.

More or less my point - by no means does this one operation nullify anything or fix everything, rather I view it as a first step towards rebuilding trust in cooperation.

Mlakhavia here is just looking to outrage farm and throw buzzwords around, though I suspect their window of oppurtunity has elapsed. They and other members of their organizations have been fantasizing about a pipe dream where TNP is directly harmed in their own servers, be it still demeaning them as "lapdogs" or expressing a desire to support TNP being couped.

So, I'm not too bothered by them. Ideally, things will continue to be repaired as time goes on, much to the dismay of certain bad-faith actors frothing at the mouth to watch defenders and TNP fight for their benefit.

[Vleerian]

They and other members of their organizations have been fantasizing about a pipe dream where TNP is directly harmed in their own servers, be it still demeaning them as "lapdogs" or expressing a desire to support TNP being couped.

It's a very interesting angle you've taken here, when in practice it's your faction that has done far more harm to TNP recently than raiders are capable of.

It would also be foolish to imply that you're not at the least going through the motions of mending the bridge you burned in such a spectacular fashion. Whether or not you've learned a lesson is far too premature to judge.

Perhaps you've ought to spend less time trying to drive wedges between two factions who are, ostensibly, already enemies, and more time demonstrating you have intentions other than telling TNP who their enemies are?

[Mlakhavia]

They and other members of their organizations have been fantasizing about a pipe dream where TNP is directly harmed in their own servers, be it still demeaning them as "lapdogs" or expressing a desire to support TNP being couped.

It's a very interesting angle you've taken here, when in practice it's your faction that has done far more harm to TNP recently than raiders are capable of.

It would also be foolish to imply that you're not at the least going through the motions of mending the bridge you burned in such a spectacular fashion. Whether or not you've learned a lesson is far too premature to judge.

Perhaps you've ought to spend less time trying to drive wedges between two factions who are, ostensibly, already enemies, and more time demonstrating you have intentions other than telling TNP who their enemies are?

That's not how this machine works.

The neo-moralist machine is giant, all-consuming, and it can't stop. This crusade requires total, unremitting, and frankly unreasonable commitment to an unsustainable political agenda. It's not fun to spend political capital on offensive injunctions and symbolic badge-snatching, and it's why raiders (generally) continue to run loops around fendas right now. "Join the WA to help us win a token victory in a spat against these people we don't like" isn't a good rallying-call. People join defender orgs to defend and liberate. They aren't doing much defending and liberating right now. They are doing a pissing contest that frankly isn't being reciprocated by raiders, who are currently raiding instead.

That's why something like this situation with TNP will happen again in some other format, perhaps to someone else. It was already a massive blow for Queb and others to actually admit wrongdoing, especially after doubling down with such gusto. This agenda requires cajoling, bullying, and above all a lot of pride. They need to repeat their slogans and their mantras, and recite their line nigh-perfectly. This is why they'll continue to bully, cajole, and inflate their egos over this batshit moral crusade. And it's why this trend we've loosely termed "neo-moralism" will, eventually, fall apart.

People can forgive one overstep. They might even forgive another. But eventually, it'll all add up. And, frankly, the neo-moralists can't help themselves. All that needs to be done on our part is wait.

[Quebecshire]

It's a very interesting angle you've taken here, when in practice it's your faction that has done far more harm to TNP recently than raiders are capable of.

I am not sure North Pacificans would agree here, maybe some would, but I think someone who isn't affiliated with the "let's raid Stargate every other Monday" group should be making this point.

But whataboutism isn't very productive. Regardless of scale, the difference is defenders apologized, whereas raiders unapologetically doubled down and kept doing it again. You can say its insincere but time and actions won't give you the result we know you so desparately crave.

Perhaps you've ought to spend less time trying to drive wedges between two factions who are, ostensibly, already enemies, and more time demonstrating you have intentions other than telling TNP who their enemies are?

By doing what? Apologizing and talking things out? Providing 30 endorsements to their Frontier project?

You're a real visionary, V.

[Vleerian]

[I think someone who isn't affiliated with the "let's raid Stargate every other Monday" group should be making this point.

Ay man, been in the raider pits for a decade now, too late to quit now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Evil Wolf]

Regardless of scale, the difference is defenders apologized

...But did you though?

Are we all suppose to forget the fact that your faction did in fact double down and issued not even a non-apology but a straight up justification for trying to strongarm TNP?

Only took, what, like three attempts to get a statement that didn't totally rip on TNP?

[Angeloid Astraea]

Defenders moved from Fake Humility back to Big Ego so quickly that it didn't even appear on the activity feed!

[Ambrella]

Congratulations to TNP on your success in The Wellspring, I enjoyed my time floating in the healing pools.

[Improper Classifications]

Defenders moved from Fake Humility back to Big Ego so quickly that it didn't even appear on the activity feed!

This tells more than all the essays written by both sides.

[The North Polish Union]

In terms of actual material actions taken against the region's sovereignty, the recent fiasco with TNP went far farther than Operation Ragnarok ever did. Yet it is fascinating to observe the differences in response.

In the one case, the supposed interference on GCR sovereignty never progressed past casual discussion; in the other, various groups actually did manipulate the player and region with the single highest voting power in the game in clear violation of regional law.

And yet, despite TNP issuing a statement where they describe the subversion of their independence by saying "There is no excuse for this, and it is entirely unacceptable" and later referring to it as "outrageous behavior", a mere 6 days later, they are referring to two of the regions who indulged in this inexcusable, unacceptable, and outrageous behavior as "friends" with whom they are "relaxing in the spring".

Certainly many expected that TNP's new administration would see the strong response taken to Operation Ragnarok's discussion of violating a GCR's independence (a response which they were a part of), and craft a similarly strong response to those who just recently were engaging in actual subversion of their own independence. Clearly this has not been the case, what was good for the goose TNP apparently does not believe to be good for the gander. In doing so they have exposed their own lack of true independence in favor of a false version that, while having all the trappings of the real item, lacks the substance necessary to back itself up.

In their 22 April statement, TNP notes that its citizenry "has been loud and clear in its denunciation of what has happened". Perhaps they ought to have been louder and clearer because as it stands their denunciations have apparently had little impact.

[North East Somerset]

In terms of actual material actions taken against the region's sovereignty, the recent fiasco with TNP went far farther than Operation Ragnarok ever did. Yet it is fascinating to observe the differences in response.

In the one case, the supposed interference on GCR sovereignty never progressed past casual discussion; in the other, various groups actually did manipulate the player and region with the single highest voting power in the game in clear violation of regional law.

And yet, despite TNP issuing a statement where they describe the subversion of their independence by saying "There is no excuse for this, and it is entirely unacceptable" and later referring to it as "outrageous behavior", a mere 6 days later, they are referring to two of the regions who indulged in this inexcusable, unacceptable, and outrageous behavior as "friends" with whom they are "relaxing in the spring".

Certainly many expected that TNP's new administration would see the strong response taken to Operation Ragnarok's discussion of violating a GCR's independence (a response which they were a part of), and craft a similarly strong response to those who just recently were engaging in actual subversion of their own independence. Clearly this has not been the case, what was good for the goose TNP apparently does not believe to be good for the gander. In doing so they have exposed their own lack of true independence in favor of a false version that, while having all the trappings of the real item, lacks the substance necessary to back itself up.

In their 22 April statement, TNP notes that its citizenry "has been loud and clear in its denunciation of what has happened". Perhaps they ought to have been louder and clearer because as it stands their denunciations have apparently had little impact.

I can see you care deeply about protecting TNP's interests. Such passion for what is best for TNP, is most laudable.

I've never seen so many filled with such a burning desire to publicly protect TNP's independence and sovereignty, as over the past few weeks.

It's a great comfort to everyone there I am sure. They can sleep easy now. And all out of the goodness of your hearts?

[Hulldom]

In terms of actual material actions taken against the region's sovereignty, the recent fiasco with TNP went far farther than Operation Ragnarok ever did. Yet it is fascinating to observe the differences in response.

In the one case, the supposed interference on GCR sovereignty never progressed past casual discussion; in the other, various groups actually did manipulate the player and region with the single highest voting power in the game in clear violation of regional law.

And yet, despite TNP issuing a statement where they describe the subversion of their independence by saying "There is no excuse for this, and it is entirely unacceptable" and later referring to it as "outrageous behavior", a mere 6 days later, they are referring to two of the regions who indulged in this inexcusable, unacceptable, and outrageous behavior as "friends" with whom they are "relaxing in the spring".

Certainly many expected that TNP's new administration would see the strong response taken to Operation Ragnarok's discussion of violating a GCR's independence (a response which they were a part of), and craft a similarly strong response to those who just recently were engaging in actual subversion of their own independence. Clearly this has not been the case, what was good for the goose TNP apparently does not believe to be good for the gander. In doing so they have exposed their own lack of true independence in favor of a false version that, while having all the trappings of the real item, lacks the substance necessary to back itself up.

In their 22 April statement, TNP notes that its citizenry "has been loud and clear in its denunciation of what has happened". Perhaps they ought to have been louder and clearer because as it stands their denunciations have apparently had little impact.

I can see you care deeply about protecting TNP's interests. Such passion for what is best for TNP, is most laudable.

I've never seen so many filled with such a burning desire to publicly protect TNP's independence and sovereignty, as over the past few weeks.

It's a great comfort to everyone there I am sure. They can sleep easy now. And all out of the goodness of your hearts?

The burning passion of the pure at heart to protect regional sovereignty continues apace.

[Warzone Codger]

I can see you care deeply about protecting TNP's interests. Such passion for what is best for TNP, is most laudable.

I've never seen so many filled with such a burning desire to publicly protect TNP's independence and sovereignty, as over the past few weeks.

It's a great comfort to everyone there I am sure. They can sleep easy now. And all out of the goodness of your hearts?

The burning passion of the pure at heart to protect regional sovereignty continues apace.

Everyone has a responsibility. Native sovereignty anywhere is native sovereignty threatened everywhere.

[Thorn1000]

In terms of actual material actions taken against the region's sovereignty, the recent fiasco with TNP went far farther than Operation Ragnarok ever did. Yet it is fascinating to observe the differences in response.

In the one case, the supposed interference on GCR sovereignty never progressed past casual discussion; in the other, various groups actually did manipulate the player and region with the single highest voting power in the game in clear violation of regional law.

And yet, despite TNP issuing a statement where they describe the subversion of their independence by saying "There is no excuse for this, and it is entirely unacceptable" and later referring to it as "outrageous behavior", a mere 6 days later, they are referring to two of the regions who indulged in this inexcusable, unacceptable, and outrageous behavior as "friends" with whom they are "relaxing in the spring".

Certainly many expected that TNP's new administration would see the strong response taken to Operation Ragnarok's discussion of violating a GCR's independence (a response which they were a part of), and craft a similarly strong response to those who just recently were engaging in actual subversion of their own independence. Clearly this has not been the case, what was good for the goose TNP apparently does not believe to be good for the gander. In doing so they have exposed their own lack of true independence in favor of a false version that, while having all the trappings of the real item, lacks the substance necessary to back itself up.

In their 22 April statement, TNP notes that its citizenry "has been loud and clear in its denunciation of what has happened". Perhaps they ought to have been louder and clearer because as it stands their denunciations have apparently had little impact.

I can see you care deeply about protecting TNP's interests. Such passion for what is best for TNP, is most laudable.

I've never seen so many filled with such a burning desire to publicly protect TNP's independence and sovereignty, as over the past few weeks.

It's a great comfort to everyone there I am sure. They can sleep easy now. And all out of the goodness of your hearts?

Pretending to care about regional sovereignty went so well for defenders we thought we'd give it a go

[Mlakhavia]

I can see you care deeply about protecting TNP's interests. Such passion for what is best for TNP, is most laudable.

I've never seen so many filled with such a burning desire to publicly protect TNP's independence and sovereignty, as over the past few weeks.

It's a great comfort to everyone there I am sure. They can sleep easy now. And all out of the goodness of your hearts?

The burning passion of the pure at heart to protect regional sovereignty continues apace.

You've had such a great track record with that one, haven't you?

[Ambrella]

The burning passion of the pure at heart to protect regional sovereignty continues apace.

You've had such a great track record with that one, haven't you?

I'm glad to see another expert diplomat has found their way into TCB's government.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

In the one case, the supposed interference on GCR sovereignty never progressed past casual discussion; in the other, various groups actually did manipulate the player and region with the single highest voting power in the game in clear violation of regional law.

Point of order, what regional law?