Embassy of The North Pacific

[Johanneslanden]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this all seems slightly counter-productive for TNP.
I'm confused about TNP claiming to be trying to prevent the CCD gaining more publicity, then bringing greater attention to them than they've had in months.
If TNP's aim is genuinely to move public discussion away from the Confederation, then surely they shouldn't be generating public discussion about the Confederation?

Of course, I may just be too lowly to understand TNP's big brain plays.

[Comfed]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this all seems slightly counter-productive for TNP.
I'm confused about TNP claiming to be trying to prevent the CCD gaining more publicity, then bringing greater attention to them than they've had in months.
If TNP's aim is genuinely to move public discussion away from the Confederation, then surely they shouldn't be generating public discussion about the Confederation?

Of course, I may just be too lowly to understand TNP's big brain plays.

It was TSP that decided to ignore diplomacy and make a public statement.

[Dreadton]

I am glad my region continues to stand against CCD.

The North Remembers

[Nepleslia]

I am glad my region continues to stand against CCD.

The North Remembers

I’m glad my region doesn’t practice the censorship that is quorum raiding.

[North Prarie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this all seems slightly counter-productive for TNP.
I'm confused about TNP claiming to be trying to prevent the CCD gaining more publicity, then bringing greater attention to them than they've had in months.
If TNP's aim is genuinely to move public discussion away from the Confederation, then surely they shouldn't be generating public discussion about the Confederation?

Of course, I may just be too lowly to understand TNP's big brain plays.

It was TSP that decided to ignore diplomacy and make a public statement.

Who made the public statement first, Comfed?

[Westinor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this all seems slightly counter-productive for TNP.
I'm confused about TNP claiming to be trying to prevent the CCD gaining more publicity, then bringing greater attention to them than they've had in months.
If TNP's aim is genuinely to move public discussion away from the Confederation, then surely they shouldn't be generating public discussion about the Confederation?

Of course, I may just be too lowly to understand TNP's big brain plays.

I’m sure your brain isn’t too lowly!

The idea was to stop giving them attention to the greater world, or to give them a space in which they could claim a PR victory/advertise their cause. Getting a proposal that claims the CCD is completely reformed and no longer a region with any problems whatsoever is what we were trying to avoid. In this case, we did not anticipate opposition to our quorum raids, nor was our intention to bring attention to them - but in the end, the sort of attention is only negative for the CCD. The only people who are paying them any attention already understand who they are, and they aren’t even the topic of discussion.

[The Church of Satan]

The least TNP could have done was try to avoid their nuclear option wherever possible. They could have shown some respect for their past friends.

This was what we did.

Your actions say otherwise. Because it appears that TNP made a precise strike with only CCD in its thoughts and everything else was just "in the way." Your attacks on The Moon and Renegade Islands displays a blatant disregard for respect of any kind.

[The Moonstar]

Was Sedge or CG unreachable or something?

[Goobergunchia]

Hello, you may have missed in your considerable absence that The North Pacific has changed a lot since you last graced us with your presence. In that time, one development that occurred was that The North Pacific government decided that when we were struck at, we would strike back. In January of 2020 we revealed an attempted infiltration and coup attempt by the Confederation of Corrupt Dictatorships of The North Pacific, and in retaliation, began to hit their embassied regions as part of a short and successful campaign to strike at this fascist region. Since then, The North Pacific has continuously opposed the CCD's attempts to fool the rest of NSGP that they had reformed. Nothing we see and nothing that has been presented to us, suggests that they have, nor have they reformed from the actions they took against our region. In light of this, it was quite clear to anyone who has been around at any point in the last year or so, that would oppose this attempt to repeal the liberation against them.

That opposition included, as a last resort, quorum raiding those regions who despite receiving our telegram campaign (there are some exceptions here that I'm sure our official statement will mention) continued to approve the proposal. It was deemed to be in our vital regional interests, and in the interests of opposing fascism, to ensure this proposal did not reach the floor. That is very much an acceptable casus belli for a military operation, and we invite you to visit our forum for further information, if you remember where it is, where you can find our initial statement on the matter.

Oh, I read TNP's initial statement before commenting. It was unpersuasive.

My takeaway from all of this is that the North Pacific's current government has decided that they are the sole arbiters of what constitutes anti-fascism and is fine with imposing their position on the rest of NationStates, by force if necessary. I don't have a position on CCD, nor do I have one on the proposal that was rendered inquorate, but I do actually appreciate having the chance to make up my own mind before I vote on something. (Which includes reading advisories from respected sources, including TNP's WA Ministry.) Perhaps I am just a naive believer in democracy.

I will finally note that some regions listed as hit are regions to which I have historically held (in my capacity as a regional or organizational officer) mutual defense obligations and were I an active player I would consider said obligations to remain a point of honor absent a clear and convincing showing of why said region is no longer worthy of protection. "They disagreed with me about a WA proposal" does not meet that bar.

[Praeceps]

It was TSP that decided to ignore diplomacy and make a public statement.

Who made the public statement first, Comfed?

As per TNP's law, McM provided a report to the region on the activities of the NPA. TSP escalated through a dispatch posting and posting in their GP thread. Prior to TSP's actions, there was little interregional attention drawn towards the matter.

This was what we did.

Your actions say otherwise. Because it appears that TNP made a precise strike with only CCD in its thoughts and everything else was just "in the way." Your attacks on The Moon and Renegade Islands displays a blatant disregard for respect of any kind.

Did you miss where TNP sent out counter-campaign telegrams as we have noted in our statements several times? Did you miss where we contacted authors which we thought were close to submission and warned them early on of the possibility of quorum raiding?

Hello, you may have missed in your considerable absence that The North Pacific has changed a lot since you last graced us with your presence. In that time, one development that occurred was that The North Pacific government decided that when we were struck at, we would strike back. In January of 2020 we revealed an attempted infiltration and coup attempt by the Confederation of Corrupt Dictatorships of The North Pacific, and in retaliation, began to hit their embassied regions as part of a short and successful campaign to strike at this fascist region. Since then, The North Pacific has continuously opposed the CCD's attempts to fool the rest of NSGP that they had reformed. Nothing we see and nothing that has been presented to us, suggests that they have, nor have they reformed from the actions they took against our region. In light of this, it was quite clear to anyone who has been around at any point in the last year or so, that would oppose this attempt to repeal the liberation against them.

That opposition included, as a last resort, quorum raiding those regions who despite receiving our telegram campaign (there are some exceptions here that I'm sure our official statement will mention) continued to approve the proposal. It was deemed to be in our vital regional interests, and in the interests of opposing fascism, to ensure this proposal did not reach the floor. That is very much an acceptable casus belli for a military operation, and we invite you to visit our forum for further information, if you remember where it is, where you can find our initial statement on the matter.

Oh, I read TNP's initial statement before commenting. It was unpersuasive.

My takeaway from all of this is that the North Pacific's current government has decided that they are the sole arbiters of what constitutes anti-fascism and is fine with imposing their position on the rest of NationStates, by force if necessary. I don't have a position on CCD, nor do I have one on the proposal that was rendered inquorate, but I do actually appreciate having the chance to make up my own mind before I vote on something. (Which includes reading advisories from respected sources, including TNP's WA Ministry.) Perhaps I am just a naive believer in democracy.

I will finally note that some regions listed as hit are regions to which I have historically held (in my capacity as a regional or organizational officer) mutual defense obligations and were I an active player I would consider said obligations to remain a point of honor absent a clear and convincing showing of why said region is no longer worthy of protection. "They disagreed with me about a WA proposal" does not meet that bar.

TSP has never disagreed with us on CCD being fascist, that was made quite clear during our limited discussions with them. It's pretty clear that this resolution was to advance the interests of a fascist region through getting to the voting floor. The NPA prevent that.

Furthermore, this disagreement with the regions that approved the resolution was not "They disagreed with me about a WA proposal" but rather that they approved a fascist resolution. The NPA hasn't been out bumping Delegates just because they approved a GA proposal that we disagree with.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

It's pretty clear that this resolution was to advance the interests of a fascist region through getting to the voting floor. The NPA prevent that.

To be fair, Goob may be too ... retired to be aware of the blatant weaponization of the SC floor as a pure publicity platform, with resolutions that were always intended/doomed to fail. It fairly recently that that became a really common thing.

I question sometimes if Defending's position on quorum raiding might change if someone were to come along and pull a The Invaders again: pre-liberating their monthly ops with a lib designed to complement their region, fail at vote because of the source and phrasing, and then exhaust the potential for future libs. Later, TBH really popularized Quorum Raids as a tactic to try and stop liberations. When other equal or even less savory actors seized on TI's general tactic ("getting to vote notifies every delegate in the world and brings us attention in thousands of regions, and negative attention still gains us dozens of recruits and global infamy"), other regions such as TNP widely adopted Quorum Raiding as a last resort to deprive them of the world stage outright.

For years now, the fights against the fash, and others, on NS have time and time again proved the idea that "any publicity is good publicity," and thus defeating it "democratically" at vote is simply not enough to achieve the goals at hand. If CCD is your enemy, then allowing the resolution to come to vote at all gives them their primary end goal. Actually repealing the liberation is secondary, and defeating it also gives them a stage and ammunition in their war against "The WA Elite." TNP takes extraordinary care in their efforts to employ these methods too - campaign, including spending $$, first. Follow-up. Warn other authors to limit collateral impact on other resolutions. Surgical strikes, no tagging even where possible. Only apply it as a method to issues like antifascism, not just regional preference. But it'll never be enough, lol. Should be happy - if raiders took the lead on it, we'd prefer not to bother with any of those precautions. Quorum Raiding is easy, free, and effective.

In a way, raiding is to blame for popularizing both the "SC failure as a regional stage" tactic, and the methods of stopping it, funny enough.

[Sedgistan]

Was Sedge or CG unreachable or something?

I get campaign TGs, and received the ones from TNP. I chose to keep my approval in place, as per my own views on approving proposals. I was aware I was likely to be quorum raided, and I'm not bothered that the Moon was quorum raided (CG might be but I don't care).

The parts I disagreed with were the reasons given for the raids, and the reaction to TSP (and TRR), as per my post in TSP's thread:

<snip> That said, I disagree with TNP's stated reasoning for the actions - they'd have more legs to stand on if they'd justified it as retaliation for CCD's farcical intel attempts against TNP last year - everyone can appreciate a good bit of revenge served cold. CCD has made an effort to right some of its (many) wrongs over the last few months, and while I get treating them with suspicion, completely disregarding any of the progress they have made does no favours to the anti-fascist cause. Players and communities can change their outlook, and continuing to beat them with the Liberation/ostracisation stick whilst refusing to even entertain the carrot of no longer treating them as fascist identifiers, is not conducive to encouraging others to change their ways.

Trying to make TSP feel bad for sticking to its well-known principles of defending non-fascist regions (including regions that were historically anti-fascist) is just silly.

But I feel I've said my piece on the matter, and I try to avoid getting drawn into gameplay arguments, as it can impede my ability to moderate, so I'll duck out and leave it to others, unless someone tries to drag me back in again.

[The Church of Satan]

Did you miss where TNP sent out counter-campaign telegrams as we have noted in our statements several times? Did you miss where we contacted authors which we thought were close to submission and warned them early on of the possibility of quorum raiding?

Renegade Islands has no authors among it these days. Like I said before, they just RP these days.

[RiderSyl]

TSP has never disagreed with us on CCD being fascist, that was made quite clear during our limited discussions with them. It's pretty clear that this resolution was to advance the interests of a fascist region through getting to the voting floor. The NPA prevent that.

Furthermore, this disagreement with the regions that approved the resolution was not "They disagreed with me about a WA proposal" but rather that they approved a fascist resolution. The NPA hasn't been out bumping Delegates just because they approved a GA proposal that we disagree with.

but they aren't fascist. Your justification for raiding The Moon and RIA isn't even based in reality!

[Praeceps]

Did you miss where TNP sent out counter-campaign telegrams as we have noted in our statements several times? Did you miss where we contacted authors which we thought were close to submission and warned them early on of the possibility of quorum raiding?

Renegade Islands has no authors among it these days. Like I said before, they just RP these days.

I never said they did? I am replying to your demonstrably false assertion "that TNP made a precise strike with only CCD in its thoughts and everything else was just "in the way."". I notice you have not addressed that we reached out to Delegates that approved the resolution in order to attempt to persuade them to withdraw their approval.

[The Church of Satan]

And how hard did they try to contact them? Because Renegade Islands has a link to their Discord server in their WFE.

[Praeceps]

And how hard did they try to contact them? Because Renegade Islands has a link to their Discord server in their WFE.

We are well aware of that now. If you read our statement, you will see that we addressed that. I will note that you have now shifted your goalposts from saying that TNP didn't contact the RIA at all:

I was referring specifically to your assertion that a telegram would've solved the problem.

With regards to Renegade Islands, I am 100% certain that it definitely would have. They would have withdrew their approval if TNP had actually tried to talk to them. You know how I know that? Because I know both Shizensky and everyone else in Renegade Islands. Very well. They haven't been involved in GP for a very long time and they certainly don't know anything about current events. But TNP just can't be bothered to type out five sentences or less to clue them in about the resolution, right? Or is it that TNP has become relentlessly crude for 2021?

To now saying that we didn't try hard enough to contact the RIA as you finally have managed to understand that we did indeed reach out to the RIA.

[Kleptocratic Maniacs]

Renegade Islands has no authors among it these days. Like I said before, they just RP these days.

I never said they did? I am replying to your demonstrably false assertion "that TNP made a precise strike with only CCD in its thoughts and everything else was just "in the way."". I notice you have not addressed that we reached out to Delegates that approved the resolution in order to attempt to persuade them to withdraw their approval.

Oh, did you? Lovely of you to ask them politely to voluntarily sacrifice their sovereignty and independence for your goals of petty vengeance, with the other option being you forcing them to do it anyway. That’s not “reaching out in an attempt to persuade them”. That’s an ultimatum. You can try and justify it as much as you want, but there’s no denying that the NPA violated the sovereignty of numerous innocent regions just to get back at the CCD, which in itself is pretty ironic considering the thing you wanted to get back at us for was attempting to violate your own sovereignty.

[The Church of Satan]

We are well aware of that now. If you read our statement, you will see that we addressed that. I will note that you have now shifted your goalposts from saying that TNP didn't contact the RIA at all:

With regards to Renegade Islands, I am 100% certain that it definitely would have. They would have withdrew their approval if TNP had actually tried to talk to them. You know how I know that? Because I know both Shizensky and everyone else in Renegade Islands. Very well. They haven't been involved in GP for a very long time and they certainly don't know anything about current events. But TNP just can't be bothered to type out five sentences or less to clue them in about the resolution, right? Or is it that TNP has become relentlessly crude for 2021?

To now saying that we didn't try hard enough to contact the RIA as you finally have managed to understand that we did indeed reach out to the RIA.

And I said that before knowing TNP had issued a second statement to double-down on their position of "screw you" to the world at large. Yup, the lack of remorse in statement #2 was that obvious, by the way.

Having read it after the fact, it's apparent that TNP made the bare minimum effort in avoiding military action, as opposed to making every effort at their disposal like a good delegate or minister should. Were the government's necks too tired to look at their screen after tiring out their poor little fingers from typing up a simple telegram? Were their mouses too overworked to click the link to the region's page!? O_o

[Dreadton]

And I said that before knowing TNP had issued a second statement to double-down on their position of "screw you" to the world at large. Yup, the lack of remorse in statement #2 was that obvious, by the way.

Having read it after the fact, it's apparent that TNP made the bare minimum effort in avoiding military action, as opposed to making every effort at their disposal like a good delegate or minister should. Were the government's necks too tired to look at their screen after tiring out their poor little fingers from typing up a simple telegram? Were their mouses too overworked to click the link to the region's page!? O_o

There is nothing to be remorseful about, except for the two points that TNP has already apologized for.

[RiderSyl]

And I said that before knowing TNP had issued a second statement to double-down on their position of "screw you" to the world at large. Yup, the lack of remorse in statement #2 was that obvious, by the way.

Having read it after the fact, it's apparent that TNP made the bare minimum effort in avoiding military action, as opposed to making every effort at their disposal like a good delegate or minister should. Were the government's necks too tired to look at their screen after tiring out their poor little fingers from typing up a simple telegram? Were their mouses too overworked to click the link to the region's page!? O_o

There is nothing to be remorseful about, except for the two points that TNP has already apologized for.

What was the reason TNP quorum raided in the first place? Sorry, I've momentarily forgotten.

[Praeceps]

We are well aware of that now. If you read our statement, you will see that we addressed that. I will note that you have now shifted your goalposts from saying that TNP didn't contact the RIA at all:



To now saying that we didn't try hard enough to contact the RIA as you finally have managed to understand that we did indeed reach out to the RIA.

And I said that before knowing TNP had issued a second statement to double-down on their position of "screw you" to the world at large. Yup, the lack of remorse in statement #2 was that obvious, by the way.

Having read it after the fact, it's apparent that TNP made the bare minimum effort in avoiding military action, as opposed to making every effort at their disposal like a good delegate or minister should. Were the government's necks too tired to look at their screen after tiring out their poor little fingers from typing up a simple telegram? Were their mouses too overworked to click the link to the region's page!? O_o

Your first statement was factually inaccurate and the information demonstrating that has always been public. Anyone can plainly see your error.

I'm willing to engage in a good-faith discussion with individuals who won't resort to attempting to mocking statements and shifting the goalposts after being proven wrong. Thanks for your interest in TNP's statement. Enjoy the rest of your day.

[Dreadton]

What was the reason TNP quorum raided in the first place? Sorry, I've momentarily forgotten.

Nazis pretending to not be nazis, trying to get their proposal passed. You can keep with your anti vaxxer like arguments that they changed, but Nazi is a Nazi.

[VlaRiSsiA]

So is no one here going to acknowledge the link RiderSyl sent just a few posts earlier?

[The Church of Satan]

Your first statement was factually inaccurate and the information demonstrating that has always been public. Anyone can plainly see your error.

Unbeknownst to me at the time. You left that part out.

I'm willing to engage in a good-faith discussion with individuals who won't resort to attempting to mocking statements and shifting the goalposts after being proven wrong. Thanks for your interest in TNP's statement. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Again, unbeknownst to me at the time. My mocking doesn't change anything though. TNP did the bare minimum so they could go for their nuclear option and honestly say "we tried though!" However, it can hardly be called trying when they didn't even look in the WFE for a link to the region's Discord server, which is a common practice found in many regions. There is no excuse for that, much to TNP government's dismay.