Embassy of The North Pacific

by **Bormiar** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:33 pm

Wymondham wrote:
Bormiar wrote:

I'm not an idiot. I have no reason to believe that you won't just throw it away. The public has no reason not to here about this. I've made this clear before:

You would've preferred if I didn't share this publicly, rather put it in your form? It's amazing how little regard you have for free press until it benefits you

Oh, I am more than fine with you saying it in public Borm, what I am saying is, if you have evidence or stuff for that, shoot it our way so it can be reviewed and, if appropriate actioned, if you have evidence that proves that we are biased towards TWP and Osi then it of course needs to be actioned, I have zero problem with you airing your concerns publicly, quite the opposite actually, what I am saying is that we are always open to improving and want to see if what your saying has merit and can be improved on.

"Skew" does not mean "bias", at least not in my article. The whole point of the article was that the Power20 appears biased due to the obvious greater number of members from regions like TWP and Osiris, but that it's not biased per se because it focuses on a community within gameplay (i.e. the community associated with the NSGP server) that members of regions like TNP and TRR tend to stay out of, while members of regions like Osiris and TWP tend to stay in. Therefore, the Power20 is of little appeal to players from TNP, and it's not going to be of much use to them.

Read the 6th paragraph. I made it very clear that the Power20 isn't biased per se.

Part of the issue with people seeing NST as biased against TNP and TRR is comments like "the meritocratic government, where the most talented nations theoretically rise to power" are never shared about TNP and TRR. Even though he said "theoretically", this still implies that Osiris is better at putting the most talented nations in power than democracies. Or it at least plants the idea in other's head. I don't have a problem with a newspaper being pro-meritocracy, but I'd like them to admit it.

Part of the issue is the Power20's skew. Why didn't you ask McM back to be a judge?

Part of the issue is how atrocious NST is in reporting on events in TRR/TNP. NST can't seem to make an article about either region without getting something simple wrong. NST has written two articles about TRR. In the first, the author claimed that Frattastan "[suffered] an 'expired' term" incorrectly. I don't even know what "each regional officer holds office for a protracted amount of time until their position is automatically up for election" means. Our election system and length of terms is quite normal. In the second article, the author initially described TRT as "now-independent", which makes no sense whatsoever. TRT didn't and doesn't have some government members looking down its back and censoring things (it has actually been frequently criticized for being too bold with its comments). But it's also not as though it's completely separate from the region (the head of TRT is appointed by the delegate and confirmed by the assembly). I don't want to get into a discussion of TRT independence (which frequently leads to libel against TRT), but that's just wrong. I have no problem with Maowi making an honest mistake, but the editor didn't even disclose that they made a correction, which is incredibly suspicious. They just edited it.

Part of the issue is how little respect you've shown for the regions. For example, you didn't ask us permission to do this april fools joke, which featured a bunch of random insults to TRR-- the kind that I don't know where it came from. Satire is supposed to have an element of truth, but I can't think of a scenario where TRT has been known to be "posh" or "looking for drama". Also, using my name to call your organization "truthful, responsible, and reasoned journalism" isn't satire because it's what you actually think about yourselves. It's just irritating. Now, this scenario would be excusable with time had you (yes, you, Wymondham) not edited it so much that the original author (now the Rejected Times' Editor-in-Chief) couldn't even be credited with the article anymore. It's inexcusable that you would put insults to TRT into the mouth of a TRT author.

Many of us are also insulted that NST tried to trick TRT twice into relinquishing all its content to NST in what is ostensibly a "partnership". Many of us are unimpressed by NST trying to stir trouble with Lazarus. Most just dismiss NST as a news source.

I'm not going to use your form, but if you want help, I'm offering to read over your articles on TRR to check for inaccuracies. That way you can't be blamed for issues (which you won't have), and I won't have to see you accidentally misinform others. I'll even write them if you need it. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

Wymondham wrote:
Bormiar wrote:It's known for that within circles that aren't a TWP and Osiris circlejerk, which you don't seem to be a part of. No wonder you wouldn't have heard of it. No wonder you believe that you need more members from Osiris and TWP. If my article is making you aware of that problem, you've only proved the necessity of it. Thanks.

No, I never said your article made you aware of the problem, I never said that was the case so idk where you've pulled that from. The reason I think we need to cover TWP and Osi more is cos I think that historically our coverage,especially of TWP, has historically been lacklustre. I dont see how me saying I think we are lacking in that area equals more staff from TWP and Osi lol

I didn't mean more members from TWP and Osiris within your staff. I thought you were saying that you thought more players from Osiris and TWP belonged on the Power20.

I don't know how its poor coverage of TWP and Osiris at all defends NST. It just makes you look bad that you also cover TWP and Osiris poorly. Most members of TNP and TRR et al. have determined that you can't cover their regions accurately, either. This looks pretty bad for you. :/

by **Jar Wattinree** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:42 pm

Looks like the information market has come about -- now there's three of them competing. Or maybe more, I'm not sure. More's great, one's terrible.

by **The Notorious Mad Jack** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:07 pm

Bias can only be determined if the results do not match reality, or if the methodology is provably designed to favor a certain result. A strong case can be made for both. First, the North Pacific's member on the panel, Madjack, was never sent the link to vote. A note from Wymondham states that this was due to "an unforeseen family emergency", though that did not affect any other panellist, and Wymondham originally didn't even know that there was a TNPer on board.

I'm not sure where The Northern Lights is getting this from - Wymondham is the one who initially approached me - and as I'm about to show, TNL's implied suspicion over what happened and how Wym missed me seems harsh, given the chain of events seems fairly easy to have happened to me, especially due to their real life emergency and also due to the fact that I didn't do my side of the bargain:

My next correspondence with Wym didn't happen until the 3rd of the following month, after the Power20 had been released and just after both he and I realised what had happened:

None of this should be new information to The Northern Lights editors and writers - I've said this publicly both in NSGP and the TNP Gen server and had they approached me to comment on an article that invokes something that involves me to attack NST, I'd have re-iterated it to them.

There is a mistrust of NSToday in TNP due to what TNPers believe - and I agree with them - was flawed or bad coverage of our elections at varying points. There are legitimate criticisms to be made there. But I don't think the Power20 is a product of some intentional bias towards or against any particular community.

Edit: I should clarify, the above logs are released with the permission of Wym.

by **Yokiria** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:43 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:But I don't think the Power20 is a product of some intentional bias towards or against any particular community.

IMO, any biases present in the Power20 are certainly not biases born out of malice.

by **Bormiar** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:49 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:snip

Yes, you didn't do you part. You also, judging by your logs, weren't given the opportunity to do your part. He never noticed that your name wasn't put on the list. Whether it was intentional or not (I suspect it was unintentional), it still happened. There doesn't need to a conspiracy for a mistake to be made. I don't know why you're taking the fall for this.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:There is a mistrust of NSToday in TNP due to what TNPers believe - and I agree with them - was flawed or bad coverage of our elections at varying points. There are legitimate criticisms to be made there. But I don't think the Power20 is a product of some intentional bias towards or against any particular community.

It's more likely an epistemological bias. They select NSGPers; i.e. players within that social circle associated with the NSGP server. Those players select NSGPers. Why wouldn't they?

Yokiria wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:But I don't think the Power20 is a product of some intentional bias towards or against any particular community.

IMO, any biases present in the Power20 are certainly not biases born out of malice.

Agreed.

To further illustrate my point (on why people don't like NST), here are some articles from back when NST was good:

1. https://nationstates.news/a-giant-falls-solorni-gameplay-heavyweight-exits-with-a-bang/118/ and https://nationstates.news/a-giant-falls-balder-what-happens-without-the-queen/125/
2. https://nationstates.news/a-new-model-for-journalism-in-nationstates/75/
3. https://nationstates.news/up-close-and-personal-imki/427/
4. https://nationstates.news/tcb-constitutional-convention-trudges-on-citizens-reject-elected-assembly/443/
5. https://nationstates.news/antifa-a-closer-look-at-the-prominent-anti-fascist-ns-initiative/536/
6. Etc.

Detailed; informative; digestible; talks to experts; makes connections; makes predictions; etc. That's good journalism. Granted, there's some less-than-desirable stuff like this.

Let's look at some of the current articles. I see 5 summaries of elections. Who wants to read that? When I was a governor, I offered that NST actually start putting thought into their articles. They contended that they actually did provide thought (lol), citing that they "compare the quality of different candidates". That's the bare minimum, and I don't even see it here.

This isn't the writers' fault. They've been exploited -- essentially -- by a board of politicians who should be encouraging them to write more interesting articles. Their valuable time is being wasted. The board members pretend as though the writers have a say with their "governor" role, but -- speaking as an ex-governor -- the board actually controls it. I find it incredible that a co-founder of NSToday would actually agree with me on this analysis. It's disappointing what you did to his organization.

This is essentially Lewis' mission statement for NationStates Today. Lewis' NST would "[consolidate] regional sources", but NST has alienated players from many regions. (I haven't mentioned NST's little regard for 10KI and Europeia, but I should.) Lewis' NST would "[bring] together talented journalists from all regions", but again the administration has alienated outsiders. Lewis' NST wouldn't have "a hidden agenda", but we see the subtle bias and political moves with Lazarus and their "partnerships". And finally, Lewis' NST wouldn't "[be] beholden to any region’s whims", and while it has done reasonably here, it has created partnerships such that it is expected to push out articles about other regions. I thought NST might meet its own expectations of a good newspaper, but it clearly didn't.

When you started out, you had a fancy site, tons of UCR writers, and lots to write about. You fell pretty hard.

(Wym has agreed to talk to me about this later, but I was mid-way through this post when he suggested it)

by **Qvait** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:56 pm

One thing I did encounter and regret as a writer and editor at NST is that some of the articles weren't as in-depth as I wish they were.

by **Wymondham** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:58 am

Bormiar wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:snip

This is essentially Lewis' mission statement for NationStates Today. Lewis' NST would "[consolidate] regional sources", but NST has alienated players from many regions. (I haven't mentioned NST's little regard for 10KI and Europeia, but I should.) Lewis' NST would "[bring] together talented journalists from all regions", but again the administration has alienated outsiders. Lewis' NST wouldn't have "a hidden agenda", but we see the subtle bias and political moves with Lazarus and their "partnerships". And finally, Lewis' NST wouldn't "[be] beholden to any region’s whims", and while it has done reasonably here, it has created partnerships such that it is expected to push out articles about other regions. I thought NST might meet its own expectations of a good newspaper, but it clearly didn't.

When you started out, you had a fancy site, tons of UCR writers, and lots to write about. You fell pretty hard.

(Wym has agreed to talk to me about this later, but I was mid-way through this post when he suggested it)

Okay, so, firstly, to say we have little regard for XKI or Europeia is objectively false, why, if we had little regard for either of these regions, be doing a writer exchange with EBC in Europeia.
Secondly I have said this before and I will say i again no NST writer has ever written an article on the request of any of our cross promotional agreement partners, even when we had content agreements, out writers never wrote them, so that is also objectively false.
Again, to say NST has fallen, maybe in your view it has, but even without P20, more people are reading NST's content than ever before, our podcasts are getting bigger and better and all in all, we're in a much better place, you dont have to like it, and that's your choice, but to say NST has fallen when, we have more UCR only writers than we did at the beginning as well as the increase in content viewership, isn't true.
As Borm says I have indeed agreed to talk to him early next week and I look forward to having a constructive discussion with him about how we can address his concerns.

by **Honeydewistania** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:33 am

I'm not the biggest fan of NST, but even I know they aren't malicious, it's just poor management. Take the Lazarus incident. If you've got a leak, ask the guy in charge and get an angry response, you either zip your mouth or just publish the leak and face the consequences, instead of releasing a dumb statement that does no one favours. Similarly the Madjack thing, it's probably not deliberate.

by **Gorundu** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:49 am

Honeydewistania wrote:I'm not the biggest fan of NST, but even I know they aren't malicious, it's just poor management. Take the Lazarus incident. If you've got a leak, ask the guy in charge and get an angry response, you either zip your mouth or just publish the leak and face the consequences, instead of releasing a dumb statement that does no one favours. Similarly the Madjack thing, it's probably not deliberate.

I don't think Borm has accused NSToday of being malicious in his article or his subsequent responses.

by **Honeydewistania** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:56 am

Gorundu wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:I'm not the biggest fan of NST, but even I know they aren't malicious, it's just poor management. Take the Lazarus incident. If you've got a leak, ask the guy in charge and get an angry response, you either zip your mouth or just publish the leak and face the consequences, instead of releasing a dumb statement that does no one favours. Similarly the Madjack thing, it's probably not deliberate.

I don't think Borm has accused NSToday of being malicious in his article or his subsequent responses.

Oh, I guess I misinterpreted. Sorry.

by **Canibull** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:08 am

Thank you to TNP, TNL and Minister Gorundu for publishing my article. Although the events were some time ago, I believe they remain relevant. Somewhat disappointed that the article is not generating as much traction as I had hoped, but there is always next issue I suppose. Thank you again, and happy reading!

by **Bormiar** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:04 pm

Wymondham wrote:
Bormiar wrote:
This is essentially Lewis' mission statement for NationStates Today. Lewis' NST would "[consolidate] regional sources", but NST has alienated players from many regions. (I haven't mentioned NST's little regard for 10KI and Europeia, but I should.) Lewis' NST would "[bring] together talented journalists from all regions", but again the administration has alienated outsiders. Lewis' NST wouldn't have "a hidden agenda", but we see the subtle bias and political moves with Lazarus and their "partnerships". And finally, Lewis' NST wouldn't "[be] beholden to any region’s whims", and while it has done reasonably here, it has created partnerships such that it is expected to push out articles about other regions. I thought NST might meet its own expectations of a good newspaper, but it clearly didn't.

When you started out, you had a fancy site, tons of UCR writers, and lots to write about. You fell pretty hard.

(Wym has agreed to talk to me about this later, but I was mid-way through this post when he suggested it)

Okay, so, firstly, to say we have little regard for XKI or Europeia is objectively false, why, if we had little regard for either of these regions, be doing a writer exchange with EBC in Europeia.

I'll rescind what I said about Europeia (not because of the writer exchange-- I already knew about that). However, several members of 10KI have expressed dislike for the coverage (or perhaps lack thereof) of 10KI. 10000 Islands doesn't even have a tag link on the footer, despite being an incredibly active UCR. "Trabardia" (?), "Wymondham", "Xoriet", "Josh", "Koth", and "Fedele" have tags. It's not your fault if people don't want to write on 10KI, but it is your fault if you still think you should be focusing on more coverage of TWP and Osiris:

Wymondham wrote:I personally consider our lack of coverage in both regions an area of significant weakness.

The skewed amount of coverage is another reason people see a skew. When a non-regional, international newspaper primarily covers events in specific regions, it appears as though those regions are more important, more interesting, or more active.

Larger font sizes on tag clouds mean more articles. Osiris has a 14 pt font size tag. The West Pacific is 12 pt. Etc.

I picked out all the regions and some of the players. Notice how Josh, Xoriet, Wymondham, Xoriet, and Koth have more content on them than the entirety of TRR content. Koth is level with TNP, which is on the same level as CCD. They are faaaaaaaar below their UCR and GCR counterparts. 10KI didn't even get a tag (neither did Balder).

Again, it's fine if people don't want to write about those regions. Just don't go around saying you need more TWP and Osiris content.

Wymondham wrote:Secondly I have said this before and I will say i again no NST writer has ever written an article on the request of any of our cross promotional agreement partners, even when we had content agreements, out writers never wrote them, so that is also objectively false.

One of the signatories (i.e. the person who agreed to it on the other end) of your cross-promotional agreement told me "they are supposed to promote any events we have and cover our elections and other major events". I won't say who here. I'll tell you if that's a misinterpretation, but I'd also want to see the agreement.

This wouldn't have any confusion if we could easily see these documents. Can you publish every cross-promotional agreement (or other agreement) you have? That could mean posting it on your site (such as here) or just posting it here. The lack of transparency has led to confusion regarding it before.

Wymondham wrote:Again, to say NST has fallen, maybe in your view it has, but even without P20, more people are reading NST's content than ever before, our podcasts are getting bigger and better and all in all, we're in a much better place, you dont have to like it, and that's your choice, but to say NST has fallen when, we have more UCR only writers than we did at the beginning as well as the increase in content viewership, isn't true.

If size and clicks are all that matters to you, you could become the NationStates Buzzfeed. Worse articles may even receive more clicks because of the controversy they stir up. I gave a pretty good example of articles "now and then" earlier.

I'm glad you brought up podcasts. That's the most "NSGP"-skewed content you have. Do you have any idea how insulting this is to players in democratic regions? To have a "discussion on meritocracy vs. democracy", you brought in a radical meritocracy advocate and an even more radical meritocracy advocate. In that podcast, Altino argued that governments worked based on how you marketed them, but said "I wouldn't suggest [democracy in Osiris]... Osiris is a winning region, so they did it right". Wymondham followed with "Osiris has had a very nasty history with democracy... we've seen the worst that democracy can offer". I'm not going to say whether they're right or wrong, but anyone listening to that podcast hears a pro-meritocracy podcast.

That's just one example. With each guest I saw, it becomes clearer and clearer how little you care about anything outside of your circle. Guest list: Josh, Imki, Halo, Nate Penrose, Imaginery, Malphe, Lynxi, New Rogernomics, Altino, Koth, Xoriet, Benja, Manson, Fedele, Riakou, JoWhatup, Seraph, Prydania, and Marrabuk. Some of those players have been on several times. The only people you could call non-NSGPers are Prydania and maybe Marrabuk (Nate Penrose? I don't know who that is). Prydania and Marrabuk are only there because you needed GCR delegates. As I write, you are recording a Lazarus discussion with Evil Wolf, Imki, Omega, and Roavin (again, all NSGPers) in your server.

Personally, I hate NS podcasts, but your podcasts should be the more interesting and less fact-based (e.g. election summaries) content on NST. They have, however, more of an "NSGP" focus than Escade's gameplay magazine. Despite your expectations, I don't consider your podcasts evidence that NST has become better.

I've shown how your ostensibly fact-based election summaries are biased against non-"NSGP" regions in the frequency of reporting, the quality of reporting, and the opinions snuck in as "facts". I've shown how the Power20 is biased against non-"NSGP" players. I've shown how your podcasts are blatantly obsessed with this "NSGP" circle. Is there anything that hasn't been corroded?

by **Boda** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:46 pm

Meh, NST is NSGP. We’ll just have to accept that

by **Jocospor** » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:14 am

Wymondham wrote:Again, to say NST has fallen, maybe in your view it has, but even without P20, more people are reading NST's content than ever before, our podcasts are getting bigger and better and all in all, we're in a much better place, you dont have to like it, and that's your choice, but to say NST has fallen when, we have more UCR only writers than we did at the beginning as well as the increase in content viewership, isn't true.

Yeah, and the CCD GP thread has 107k+ views. Quality incarnate.

by **Honeydewistania** » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:22 am

Boda wrote:Meh, NST is NSGP. We’ll just have to accept that

What do you mean by this?

by **Boda** » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:45 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:
Boda wrote:Meh, NST is NSGP. We’ll just have to accept that

What do you mean by this?

NST is NSGP leaning so they'll have to accept that. What's so hard about it?

by **Honeydewistania** » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:38 pm

Boda wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:What do you mean by this?

NST is NSGP leaning so they'll have to accept that. What's so hard about it?

What the hell is NSGP leaning?

by **Frattastan IV** » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:25 am

I assume that with "NSGP" (in quotes) Borm means the Discord server, and not gameplay proper (the regional government, raiding and defending stuff).

Honeydewistania wrote:
Boda wrote:NST is NSGP leaning so they'll have to accept that. What's so hard about it?

What the hell is NSGP leaning?

A focus on "NSGP elite", a number of prominent gameplayers whose good social connections that extend beyond their region or alignment and unfold for the most part in the Gameplay forum or Discord server. Onder calls them "the elites of the gameplay forum" or the center of "the social structure of the gameplay community at large", and presumably Unibot thinks they are the apex of today's "Facebook culture".

by **Honeydewistania** » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:34 am

Frattastan IV wrote:I assume that with "NSGP" (in quotes) Borm means the Discord server, and not gameplay proper (the regional government, raiding and defending stuff).

Honeydewistania wrote:What the hell is NSGP leaning?

A focus on "NSGP elite", a number of prominent gameplayers whose good social connections that extend beyond their region or alignment and unfold for the most part in the Gameplay forum or Discord server. Onder calls them "the elites of the gameplay forum" or the center of "the social structure of the gameplay community at large", and presumably Unibot thinks they are the apex of today's "Facebook culture".

Huh.

by **Bormiar** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:59 pm

Frattastan IV wrote:I assume that with "NSGP" (in quotes) Borm means the Discord server, and not gameplay proper (the regional government, raiding and defending stuff).

Honeydewistania wrote:What the hell is NSGP leaning?

A focus on "NSGP elite", a number of prominent gameplayers whose good social connections that extend beyond their region or alignment and unfold for the most part in the Gameplay forum or Discord server. Onder calls them "the elites of the gameplay forum" or the center of "the social structure of the gameplay community at large", and presumably Unibot thinks they are the apex of today's "Facebook culture".

Good other names for it. I've heard GPWest, but that suggests that it's just players from regions like TWP. They can be from wherever, but most end up being from the regions I've mentioned.

Edit: not necessarily the discord server, though that server is closely associated with these players.

by **Bran Astor** » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:38 am

I guess NST's favoritism for TWP explains why our delegate transition last November, various monthly festivals, and the latest treaty ratification were all so exhaustively covered.

by **Dreadton** » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:56 am

Hun,

When did this become the NST/NSGP Embassy and not the TNP Embassy?

by **Bormiar** » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:14 am

Bran Astor wrote:I guess NST's favoritism for TWP explains why our delegate transition last November, various monthly festivals, and the latest treaty ratification were all so exhaustively covered.

Obviously it’s not favoritism for TWP per se, rather favoritism for people within this gameplay social circle, of which more TWPers tend to be influential members of than other regions. I’m sure there are influential members of TWP who NST has seemingly never heard of, and I’d be interested to here them.

Additionally, lack of coverage does not mean bias. It just means that the writers aren’t interested in writing on it. It would mean bias if the administration weren’t encouraging coverage of certain regions, but Wym made it clear they want more coverage of TWP earlier. Bias towards regions like TWP is reflected wherever NST’s opinion shows: i.e. the podcasts and Power20.

If you want to claim that the Power20 isn’t biased, you’re actually suggesting that TWPers and Osirans (among other regions) are actually more influential (and therefore likely more competent) in gameplay than people from regions like TNP. That’s because something has to be accurate to not be biased.

by **Big Bad Badger** » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:35 am

This reeks of sour grapes. Why anyone would give two shits about what NST does is beyond me? The next time they print something interesting, will be the first. And their fact checking department is lacking as well. Get over it! Create a better publication. Jesus H. Christ stop whinging about something out of your control.

But the truth is that Josh, Xoriet and Koth individually are more interesting GP wise than the entirety of TNP and TRR.

by **Imperium of Josh** » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:51 am

Big Bad Badger wrote:This reeks of sour grapes. Why anyone would give two shits about what NST does is beyond me? The next time they print something interesting, will be the first. And their fact checking department is lacking as well. Get over it! Create a better publication. Jesus H. Christ stop whinging about something out of your control.

But the truth is that Josh, Xoriet and Koth individually are more interesting GP wise than the entirety of TNP and TRR.

Basks in being interesting

But seriously NST is committed to diversifying its coverage of stuff, but these things take time, know-how and significant effort. Not to mention that, like everything else on NS, it's all a voluntary project which works because people give up their time to take part. So like, go write "interesting" stuff for NST if y'all wanna see "interesting" stuff, as per your definition, in NST.

Embassy of The North Pacific

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