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Embassy of The North Pacific

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
Not a roleplaying forum.

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Escade
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1019
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Escade » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:54 pm

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Megalodon Mall can't beat Jason Statham :)

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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6492
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:51 pm

Good evening,

I write this post as an individual. While I draw on my administrative experience in writing this, I am not writing as an administrator, member, or other representative of any region.

I’m posting in your thread today because you maintain an embassy with The South Pacific, which according to their forums, means you are an ally.

I’d like to bring to your attention, should they not already be in it, some recent events that have been happening in The South Pacific, that I’d hope would concern you.

1) 6 weeks ago, The South Pacific issued several proscriptions. Among those proscriptions was one aimed at me. Within that proscription, the cabinet:

>Repeats a claim they’ve made concerning an interaction I once had with Imkitopia, which Imki herself says she does not wanted used, because it is a “non-issue.” Bonus.
>Puts words into TWP’s mouth while vaguely accusing me of “ill-suited conduct.”
>Puts words into TEP’s mouth while accusing me of “blackmail,” something their criminal code solidifies as a very serious accusation, something they’ve shown no evidence for, and something which TEP confirms is nonsense.
Items 2 and 3 there have been quietly walked back to a degree in my suit on the matter in their court system (which you may find useful to read for more detail), but remain in the official Proscription, and without public withdrawal/correction.

2) Nearly 2 weeks ago, the administrative team in The South Pacific issued an administrative ban of prominent members (and political enemies of sections of the admin team) Tim and Escade, shortly after both they and several admins received a 48 hour discord posting ban. In the announcement, they are accused by a root admin of “clear and ongoing harassment,” a claim that the Prime Minister supports, and which another root admin adds a claim of “targeted bullying” to. These are very serious claims, of course, and several members of The South Pacific reasonably asked for evidence of. The admin team has, instead, refused to share evidence or even specific details of claims with the accused or anyone else outside their team, largely only saying that “various high ranking and highly respected players made complaints and, I think the responses of to this thread support the decision.” When pressed further, the only details provided are entirely to do with regional politics and not harassment, and even name a political recall process against the banned players as an example of an administrative warning. Other administrators have confirmed that no evidence has yet been forwarded to them.

This whole process, accusations of harassment without evidence or intent to provide evidence (as repeatedly stressed), is not only against TSP’s own Forum Moderation Policy which states ” Do not make false accusations in order to tarnish the reputations of other people. If you make an accusation, it is your responsibility to provide sufficient proof,” but is also against the basic standards of good moderation. For example, TSP’s most recent prior announced administrative ban in their operations center mirrored the result of a Europeian investigation which, while on the less detailed end of the spectrum for Europeia’s investigative work, still makes clear and specific accusations, explicitly mentions that they have specific and relevant evidence that *supports* personal testimony, and which presumably in line with Euro’s usual administrative processed, is available for further inquiry by other admin teams. Meanwhile, TSP makes excuses not to share evidence that include “The admins aren't going to do anything that will just give Tim and Escade ammo from wherever they plant their feet after TSP,” and (paraphrasing this time), ‘it’d be too hard to draw specific evidence out of a litany of quotes without context.’ Historically, as you surely know all to well, the spread of such unverified claims, even with expressed intent to provide verification in the near future, has been met with incredible (and rightful) backlash. In this case, the only intent shown has been to avoid going into any detail at all. Regardless of the debate as to whether or not bans were warranted, I think we can generally agree that accusations of harassment with no intent to provide proof in the present or future are not something we support.

3) In the course of this matter being brought into the public light, it’s come out that three out of the four administrators in TSP, along with the current Prime Minister, hang out with the player Unibot in a private server. As you almost certainly know, Unibot is a player that, for good reasons that cannot be discussed here, is banned from most every large region and their offsite communication areas with extreme prejudice, and who is near-universally barred from even attending public offsite Gameplay community events. The fourth, uninvolved administrator effectively confirms this, in a post mentioning the fact that Tim once brought this matter up, in a post that can best be summed up as (not an actual quote) "questioning this association is fine, but also not fine, because we're using questioning it as one of our few explicit reasons why you deserved your ban, because it's 'smearing,' and you're questioning it in bad faith because you were asked to calm down about it but did not." While policing who others associate with is not often a level to which we go as a community, there are indeed individuals whom we strive to isolate from Gameplay, and the majority of those running TSP associating closely with such an individual seems to me like cause for concern.


Further complicating all of these issues is that the chance of internal action occurring to resolve any of them is incredibly low. The only two bodies in TSP that can potentially provide consequences like removing an admin under current TSP law are “the admin team” and “the high court.” Two out of the three high court justices *are* involved administrators, and for bonus points, the third involved administrator is the chair of TSP legislative body, and the fourth involved person is the Prime Minister, head of the Cabinet (executive).

For more information on all of these matters and more, I would suggest taking the time to read threads I have linked throughout in full, notably, the one announcing the administrative ban, as well as either the last 13 pages of the TSP thread (including the proscriptions) or the last 6 pages (including just the bans+unibot). I would also be happy to do my best to point you at existing prior posts that might answer questions you may have.

As mentioned, it has been nearly two weeks since the latter two issues have come to light, with no visible movement on them in over a week. As a region with notable diplomatic ties with TSP, do you condone this sort of not-typically-acceptable behavior in both foreign interactions and administrative policy? If you do not find it acceptable, do you plan to take any actions expressing such, such as a public condemnation of these activities, and/or consequences for not resolving them?

Thank you for your time.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

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Omnis delenda est.

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Siwale
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 8
Founded: Nov 28, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Statement on St Abbaddon

Postby Siwale » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:45 pm

Image

Magicality City, Nov 20, 2018


Statement on St Abbaddon


Following careful consideration, I have deployed the North Pacific Army into St Abbaddon in support of Topid. As one of the foremost democracies in NationStates, we have an obligation to stand against the coercive influence of the New Pacific Order on St Abbadon's community. When you have no founder, "Accept the protection of this horde of WA nations" is the proverbial offer that cannot be refused. Topid's departure from St Abbaddon, and the subsequent establishment of the region as a protectorate of the NPO, were not decisions made freely, without coercion, or without undue external influence. These decisions were made under duress, under pressure from a foreign power, and resulted in the forced removal of one of St Abbaddon's longest-standing members and most vociferous defenders.

The North Pacific has an extensive history of engaging militarily in the region of St Abbaddon dating back to 2012, whereby the liberation of St Abbadon was one of the first operations conducted by the newly restored North Pacific Army. This action today is another chapter in our long history of engagement with this region.

At this moment, 17 members of the North Pacific Army are deployed in support of this work. We have been joined by our allies in the IJCC. We have been assured by Topid and The Black Hawks that no other natives will be removed from the region during this ongoing operation. Our support of this ongoing operation is conditional upon these assurances eventuating. It is our hope that the region of St. Abbaddon will return to the stability and prosperity it has enjoyed in the past, and that it may do so, without fear of further external involvement in their homeland. St. Abbaddon is one of the few historically founderless regions left in NationStates. It deserves true, independent internal control, not the “protection” of an NPO straightjacket.

Sincerely,

Siwale
Delegate of The North Pacific
Last edited by Siwale on Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Klaus Devestatorie
Minister
 
Posts: 2562
Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:46 pm

I look forward to raiding this new and free version of St Abbaddon in approximately 8-12 months.
The Avengrynkhal Ascendant of Klaus Devestatorie

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2454
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:47 pm

A strong statement and a good decision by the government of The North Pacific. Thank you for bringing back diplomatic statements in general!
Cormac Skollvaldr
Former Everything of Everywhere, Man
Way Too Cool to Be Commended or Condemned by the Likes of Y'all

"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves

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Solorni
Minister
 
Posts: 3024
Founded: Sep 04, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Solorni » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:49 pm

Hear hear!
Lovely Queen of Balder
Proud Delegate of WALL

Lucky Number 13

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Ambrella
Envoy
 
Posts: 272
Founded: Mar 17, 2007
Capitalizt

Postby Ambrella » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:51 pm

A great statement, Siwale. Thanks to The North Pacific for supporting Topid and a free St. A.
Sopo, denizen of Europeia.

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Bowzin
Envoy
 
Posts: 259
Founded: Aug 13, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bowzin » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:52 pm

according to TPs Declaration of War, you're their enemy now too

EDIT: thank you though for your support! o7
Last edited by Bowzin on Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bowzin Vytherov-Skollvaldr
| Statsminister of Balder |
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Escade
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1019
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Escade » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:52 pm

I'm trying to catch up on this and find this to be an interesting development. Wonder if this incident will change, strain or otherwise impact GCR relations.
Last edited by Escade on Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Thomas Insaniac
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 104
Founded: Aug 31, 2012
Capitalizt

Postby Thomas Insaniac » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:56 pm

Hail to the Sloth

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Pergamon
Diplomat
 
Posts: 712
Founded: Oct 18, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Pergamon » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:04 pm

Is this really about St Abbaddon, or more about fighting the New Pacific Order? I wonder.
PACIFICA STAND STRONG

Senator Emeritus of The Pacific - Ret. Regent of the New Pacific Order

"The only war that matters is the war of the Feederite Class against the Userite. UCR Organizations and Cabals that befoul GCR with their presence, disguised as ruling elite within them, must be removed and their power must be broken. This is the ultimate imperative of the Revolutionaries true to the GCR and the Pacifics, which have nothing to lose but the chains from Userite oppression."

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Juuuuust DO IT
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 8
Founded: Sep 21, 2015
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Juuuuust DO IT » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:09 pm

Pergamon wrote:Is this really about St Abbaddon, or more about fighting the New Pacific Order? I wonder.


For TBH? Defo about the NPO, that's been clearly stated. Assisting Topid just happens to be a mutually beneficial relationship.

EDIT: Oh this is the TNP thread my bad, I have too many tabs open.
Last edited by Juuuuust DO IT on Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2454
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:10 pm

Pergamon wrote:Is this really about St Abbaddon, or more about fighting the New Pacific Order? I wonder.

Didn't they just recently work with you on some military operations? But sure, burn that bridge.
Cormac Skollvaldr
Former Everything of Everywhere, Man
Way Too Cool to Be Commended or Condemned by the Likes of Y'all

"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves

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Flanderlion
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1614
Founded: Nov 25, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Flanderlion » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:11 pm

I mean, a little misguided, but guessing that's due to a few dodgy influences in the gov. Thankfully TNP has elections, and I've got faith in the native electorate to vote out those who make the bad choices. TNP isn't made of bad people, but there is a couple of bad apples and in this case it appears a little too much weight has been given to their views.

I guess TBH and IJCC (who a few WALL members are part of) is more important than protecting natives and fellow Feeders (of which, all bar TNP is deployed to defend the native delegate).

I did actually think we were getting along pretty well, given the amount of shared ops we've done with the NPA in the last few months, but obviously TNP's upper gov didn't quite have the same viewpoints on us.
Last edited by Flanderlion on Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As always, I'm representing myself.

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Topid
Minister
 
Posts: 2827
Founded: Dec 29, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Topid » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:24 pm

Flanderlion wrote:Thankfully TNP has elections

All I could think:
Image
Founder, Pacifica

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Efrua
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Apr 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

St. Abby Local Here

Postby Efrua » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:40 pm

Hello there. I am Efrua, a nation of St. Abbaddon. I don't post in the forums, as I usually stick to my own internal affairs. However, this is something that I can't ignore. Before we became a protectorate, we were often subject to the occasional raid. While they would always breeze over due to our Liberated status, it would be incredibly annoying whenever they wiped our flag and factbook entries clean and replaced it with their raider graffiti.
When we became a NPO protectorate, I did not notice at all due to the fact absolutely nothing had changed. It's absolute bull when people from TBH run around on the RMB screaming how they're "protecting us from tyranny" and "kicking out the oppressors". We went around our daily lives unobstructed, and we continued to do so up until this very moment when we were raided.
As for Topid, it's kind of baffling as to why he was so willing to kick up an old grudge. He was free to rejoin us whenever he pleased, and had he taken the peaceful diplomatic route noone would have batted an eye. Even if this operation is supposed to bring him back to power, that's kind of suspect considering how The Kramer has 159 endorsements compared to Topid's 147 (at the time of this post).
In response to all of this, I want to ask Topid this: Why do you have such a hard-on for NPO? Was it really worth bringing an entire raiding army? Are you sure that TBH will just leave the region completely unscathed once you win, or will they move to repeal the Liberated status of St. Abbaddon, and move to make the region a pawn in their raiding games?
Sincerely,
Efrua
A native of St. Abbaddon that's completely baffled by these turn of events.

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Topid
Minister
 
Posts: 2827
Founded: Dec 29, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Topid » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:52 pm

Efrua,

I believe you are coming from a good place here. First, to quote the message Kitsco sent me about my ban:
Being exiled until further notice or until the region of Pacific nullifies the Expulsion, or unless a new elected government overrides the treaty and you can return.


I have not been free to return. None of those things have happened. So you are just wrong. Kitsco NOW says I am free to return if I give back something I "took" from the NPO. I have no idea what I have taken from anyone. Nothing that I own was held by NPO ever to best of my knowledge. But I am indeed open to walk through whatever process the powers that be are willing to hold.

I'm plenty flexible, but there's a lot that I'm not flexible about. For instance, since I left Kitsco changed the regional controls to prevent recruitment. That's not going to work. That's stupid for anyone that doesn't just hope to sit ad delegate of a graveyard on someone else's dime because he knows they have to. And by the way, that's not the carrot that will get the powers that be what they want either, as Kitsco also seems to think.

I have repeatedly said, including in this forum earlier today, that I am open to a common sense solution. I offered them exactly what I expect they want before they banned me, and they didn't take it. So I am skeptical they really want to take it now, and not just going to go back on it as soon as it is done. There are ways to work this out. I've asked for them since the beginning.

To the extent you think that it is me that hasn't pursued other options... You just aren't paying attention.
Founder, Pacifica

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Skallerak
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Oct 20, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Skallerak » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:25 am

Topid wrote:That's stupid for anyone that doesn't just hope to sit ad delegate of a graveyard



HAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAH.

Oh wait, you're serious.

Incredibly rich coming from you.

My my, what short memories we have!

To those defenders of Topid, let's review what actually happened after Hawkswind left the game and Topid took command. (And, for the record, Topid's dubious claim that all the natives of St Abby were only there because he invited them in is false. Three years ago, on my former nation Malisin, I personally asked Hawkswind for the region's password so I could join without even knowing that Topid existed at the time.)

Here is, in my own words, a dispatch written during the immediate aftermath of the DEN invasion over a year and a half ago.

As you'll read, Topid made all sorts of promises about his intentions to rebuild St Abby, and to his credit I believe he was sincere at the time. But his real life was interfering with his ability to govern St Abby, and hey, I can understand, we've all been there.

However, after making his intention to essentially be leaving the game explicit, and despite requests from Kitsco, myself and the other natives at the time, Topid, having been granted exclusive powers of delegation not through free election by the natives but from moderator bequest (which the mods granted to him to restore the region after DEN's use of the Predator program), Topid instead lobbied to have the Liberation of St Abby repealed so that he could put a permanent password on the region while he left the game, dooming it to total inactivity for at least the foreseeable two to three years. During this time period, Topid was not only going to password protect the region permanently, he was also planning to eject every native from the region.

He waived any objections to this plan by claiming it was for the protection of the region from invaders, but, au contraire, he rejected any proposal to seek permanent protection from a larger defender region by claiming it would jeopardize St Abby's sovereignty.

The only thing Topid did right here was finally hand the delegacy over to Kitsco, who thankfully finally got protection for us and rid the region of Topid.

Relevant Topid quotes: "There will be no sleepers in St Abbaddon soon. This is really and truly the end of the St Abbaddon saga, and I know how to wrap this up." (B-but I thought Topid was gonna rebuild the region!)

"What matters isn't the endorsement cap when we start emptying the region." (Wew laddie.)

TLDR: No, Topid, you aren't St Abbaddon, (though you did nearly kill it) and you aren't its rightful ruler.


Topid, YOU wanted to kill the region in a petty "if I can't have it, no one can" ploy.

I know this fact is inconvenient for you, but it never becomes less true.
Last edited by Skallerak on Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:44 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Solorni
Minister
 
Posts: 3024
Founded: Sep 04, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Solorni » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:34 am

1. None of that is why St. Abbaddon is a protectorate of the NPO (revenge against things that Topid said about the NPO apparently).

2. Topid's current region has over 300 nations and seems much more successful than St. Abbaddon.
Last edited by Solorni on Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lovely Queen of Balder
Proud Delegate of WALL

Lucky Number 13

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Topid
Minister
 
Posts: 2827
Founded: Dec 29, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Topid » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:16 pm

Skallerak wrote:Topid, YOU wanted to kill the region in a petty "if I can't have it, no one can" ploy.

I know this fact is inconvenient for you, but it never becomes less true.

This is not true, best evidenced by who told you, the organization with the worst track record on truthfulness in the game.

The truth is I did believe it was best to lock the region down when I knew I was going to have to step away from the game, and reopen it when I had time to take care of it. This best argument in support of this position is what has happened since I left. Hawkswind would roll over in his grave to hear St Abbaddon is opening fascist embassies and had turned to the bottom of the scum bucket for protection.

The truth remains as it always has been. The two people in the game who give a fuck about St Abbaddon are me and Hawkswind. You seem passionate about it, so hopefully one day actions will earn your way on this list too.

ACTIONS that will convince me someone cares about St Abbaddon include recruiting new members (Something Kitsco has prohibited via regional control) and generally putting in the elbow grease to keep the region alive. Sitting there logging in to the game four times a month, relying on frankly reprehensible outsiders to keep you in the delegate seat forever is not leadership you should be excited about. The only person getting anything out of that is Kitsco, who wants to be Delegate without doing any work.

And the irony of condemning me for THINKING about "killing" the region to prevent *motions broadly* from happening while looking at Kitsco with stars in your eyes as he turns off recruitment and ensures it never lives for months shows that you have not honestly discussed the situation.
Founder, Pacifica

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Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 627
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Southern Bellz » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:15 pm

Saying Topid wants to kill the region is one of the most hilarious things I've ever seen because he's been actively trying to keep that place alive for as long as I can remember. He's had to deal with constant grief from players like me over the years and he's still trying. He's a gameplayer in the purest sense.

The reality is a founderless region is constantly in danger and it takes tough choices to keep it alive, and the things that are being cited as him wanting to 'kill the region' are options and methods that are used to keep these types of communities alive.

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2454
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:15 am

The idea of Topid wanting to kill St Abbaddon is pretty hilarious, especially when his record is contrasted with the current Delegate's.
Cormac Skollvaldr
Former Everything of Everywhere, Man
Way Too Cool to Be Commended or Condemned by the Likes of Y'all

"Follow your arrow wherever it points." - Kacey Musgraves

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Elegarth
Envoy
 
Posts: 269
Founded: Feb 08, 2006
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Elegarth » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:33 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:The idea of Topid wanting to kill St Abbaddon is pretty hilarious, especially when his record is contrasted with the current Delegate's.

Unless he wanted to banject everyone to refound with founder control?
Elegarth, The Seeker of Power
Royal Duke of The West Pacific
Patio Emperor of The West Pacific
Former Dragon Delegate of The West Pacific

The Delegarth

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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6492
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:45 pm

Elegarth wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:The idea of Topid wanting to kill St Abbaddon is pretty hilarious, especially when his record is contrasted with the current Delegate's.

Unless he wanted to banject everyone to refound with founder control?


He explicitly does not want that. It’s a piece of history as a true founderless UCR, and Topid values that very highly. In fact, my suggestion of a refound for permanent safety went over quote poorly.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9026
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:07 pm

So... is the whole thing where Topid wanted to password the region and leave for 2 years... fake?

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