The Overpoliticization of Gameplay and Defender Deceit

[Lyanna Stark]

I think that the statistics shown in here are rather silly. There's too small a sample-size to use them, and any real comparison just ends up proving really..nothing. Raiding Italy and Italia does not make someone anti-Italy..just the sample size is small. It's like the statistical joke: 67% of all frogs in the race ran faster when prompted by bugs. The other one died. [Completely paraphrasing the study itself in the joke, but you get the point.]

From what I've heard, a lot of why people think TBR is Islamophobic is less their targets and more conversation between natives in those particular targets and TBRers.

Meh, this isn't my authority--just I'm annoyed at bad usages of statistics.

[General Halcones]

Defenders will do anything nowadays, seeing that they are unable to win on the battlefield.

[Crushing Our Enemies]

a lot of why people think TBR is Islamophobic is less their targets and more conversation between natives in those particular targets and TBRers.

If that's the case, then people should stop giving TBR so much shit about their choice of targets.

[Cerebella]

Meh, this isn't my authority--just I'm annoyed at bad usages of statistics.

As Benjamin Disraeli was reputed to have said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

[Astarial]

قي رأي كلكم مجنون. ممكن انا عكس شيوعيين بسبب ت. ب. س؟ ممكن جاكر عكس الرأسنالية بسبب الرأسمالية الجنة؟

مرحبا يا آلي! والله، كلنا وكلكم مجنونون وأوافق أنك ضد الشيوعيين بسبب حرب واحد. هذا حقيقة، بدون أي شك! لماذا تسألين سؤال مجنون كذلك؟

[The Bruce]

I've watched invasions, since there was such thing as invasions, and they tend to target regions simply because they're founderless. Once they're there they like to yank the chain of any active nations in the region and some regions react more than others. I would say that many invaders will more frequent regions where they get a reaction to their actions, but I wouldn't say that any mainstream invaders pick raids on the basis of hating any particular real life ethnicity, religion, or nationality (although a few smaller groups over the years have stated that they specifically target democracies).

I have seen invaders go on a series of theme raids, but that was years ago when they suddenly got a taste for sci fi themed regions. Part of that was because a lot of sci fi themed regions had inactive founders (as they shows they were based were cancelled or became less popular) around the same time and part of that was because some invaders got a taste for raiding sci fi themed regions. Early in the game there were invaders who targeted each other based on ethnicity and nationality (Soviets versus Americans, Soviets versus Nazis, British versus Irish, etc), but that hasn't been the case for nearly a decade.

[A Million Voices]

I've watched invasions, since there was such thing as invasions, and they tend to target regions simply because they're founderless. Once they're there they like to yank the chain of any active nations in the region and some regions react more than others. I would say that many invaders will more frequent regions where they get a reaction to their actions, but I wouldn't say that any mainstream invaders pick raids on the basis of hating any particular real life ethnicity, religion, or nationality (although a few smaller groups over the years have stated that they specifically target democracies).

I have seen invaders go on a series of theme raids, but that was years ago when they suddenly got a taste for sci fi themed regions. Part of that was because a lot of sci fi themed regions had inactive founders (as they shows they were based were cancelled or became less popular) around the same time and part of that was because some invaders got a taste for raiding sci fi themed regions. Early in the game there were invaders who targeted each other based on ethnicity and nationality (Soviets versus Americans, Soviets versus Nazis, British versus Irish, etc), but that hasn't been the case for nearly a decade.

Ah... Now I feel all young and wet behind the ears. >.<

[Eist]

Meh, this isn't my authority--just I'm annoyed at bad usages of statistics.

As Benjamin Disraeli was reputed to have said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

As a sometimes statistician, I hate this quote. It should be "bad statistics", or, in this case, "no statistics".

[Feuer Ritter]

Ok, I'll take the blame for all of the muslim themed regions TBR raided, since most of those raids were selected by me. When I tag raid I usualy select regions with interesting names . So what, what's the difference in raiding a muslim themed region and raiding a chinese themed region?
7 %! What about the rest of 93 % that are not muslim themed??

[Blackbird]

I've watched invasions, since there was such thing as invasions, and they tend to target regions simply because they're founderless. Once they're there they like to yank the chain of any active nations in the region and some regions react more than others. I would say that many invaders will more frequent regions where they get a reaction to their actions, but I wouldn't say that any mainstream invaders pick raids on the basis of hating any particular real life ethnicity, religion, or nationality (although a few smaller groups over the years have stated that they specifically target democracies).

I have seen invaders go on a series of theme raids, but that was years ago when they suddenly got a taste for sci fi themed regions. Part of that was because a lot of sci fi themed regions had inactive founders (as they shows they were based were cancelled or became less popular) around the same time and part of that was because some invaders got a taste for raiding sci fi themed regions. Early in the game there were invaders who targeted each other based on ethnicity and nationality (Soviets versus Americans, Soviets versus Nazis, British versus Irish, etc), but that hasn't been the case for nearly a decade.

Indeed. In fact, some of the greatest, if not the greatest battles in Defender/Invader history typically go down on geopolitical and religious lines. For instance, the Ireland (and North Ireland conflict). I believe the largest invader/defender action to date still is the Battle of Palestine between the combined RLA/ADN/EAA/TITO/GLA forces and the Union of Sovereigns + Invaders.

[Whiskum]

I've watched invasions, since there was such thing as invasions, and they tend to target regions simply because they're founderless. Once they're there they like to yank the chain of any active nations in the region and some regions react more than others. I would say that many invaders will more frequent regions where they get a reaction to their actions, but I wouldn't say that any mainstream invaders pick raids on the basis of hating any particular real life ethnicity, religion, or nationality (although a few smaller groups over the years have stated that they specifically target democracies).

I have seen invaders go on a series of theme raids, but that was years ago when they suddenly got a taste for sci fi themed regions. Part of that was because a lot of sci fi themed regions had inactive founders (as they shows they were based were cancelled or became less popular) around the same time and part of that was because some invaders got a taste for raiding sci fi themed regions. Early in the game there were invaders who targeted each other based on ethnicity and nationality (Soviets versus Americans, Soviets versus Nazis, British versus Irish, etc), but that hasn't been the case for nearly a decade.

Indeed. In fact, some of the greatest, if not the greatest battles in Defender/Invader history typically go down on geopolitical and religious lines. For instance, the Ireland (and North Ireland conflict). I believe the largest invader/defender action to date still is the Battle of Palestine between the combined RLA/ADN/EAA/TITO/GLA forces and the Union of Sovereigns + Invaders.

Rajahland (SRATO (TNI, GB&I, TLK), raiders v TITO, FRA), ending 108-120 in August 2008, was I believe larger.

On another note, we are still waiting to hear Unibot substantiate or withdraw his serious allegations about TNI.

[Blackbird]

Indeed. In fact, some of the greatest, if not the greatest battles in Defender/Invader history typically go down on geopolitical and religious lines. For instance, the Ireland (and North Ireland conflict). I believe the largest invader/defender action to date still is the Battle of Palestine between the combined RLA/ADN/EAA/TITO/GLA forces and the Union of Sovereigns + Invaders.

Rajahland (SRATO (TNI, GB&I, TLK), raiders v TITO, FRA), ending 108-120 in August 2008, was I believe larger.

On another note, we are still waiting to hear Unibot substantiate or withdraw his serious allegations about TNI.

What's the need? Invaders are scum. They seek only to disrupt regions, the very bedrock of a civilization or politeia. They target founderless regions, the most vulnerable. They target regions which are often the least developed in terms of their culture, those who often don't work off of offsite forums, and thus, suffer an even greater harm by the destruction of their regions.

Whether or not invaders target regions because of some sort of hatred of a particular ethnicity, religion, race, or creed. Invaders hate civilization, community, the very interactions between peoples of Nations that makes this world worth living in. What's worse than that?

[Crazy girl]

Invaders are scum.

Watch the tone, BB. No flaming or trolling.

[Blackbird]

Invaders are scum.

Watch the tone, BB. No flaming or trolling.

[ooc]Alright.

I disagree, but I've posted my comments in the moderation thread rather than hear so as not to derail this thread.

[Whiskum]

Rajahland (SRATO (TNI, GB&I, TLK), raiders v TITO, FRA), ending 108-120 in August 2008, was I believe larger.

On another note, we are still waiting to hear Unibot substantiate or withdraw his serious allegations about TNI.

What's the need? Invaders are scum. They seek only to disrupt regions, the very bedrock of a civilization or politeia. They target founderless regions, the most vulnerable. They target regions which are often the least developed in terms of their culture, those who often don't work off of offsite forums, and thus, suffer an even greater harm by the destruction of their regions.

Whether or not invaders target regions because of some sort of hatred of a particular ethnicity, religion, race, or creed. Invaders hate civilization, community, the very interactions between peoples of Nations that makes this game worth playing. What's worse than that?

The need is that some of us regard Islamophobia or similar prejudice as a graver offence than raiding founderless regions in a gameplay context.

Warfare is a legitimate aspect of gameplay and engaging in it actively (raiding) rather than reactively does not imply a hatred of NationStates civilisation.

Pursuing the interests of one's own region through such practices, indirectly, is what TNI does. If vulnerable players seek harmony from such pursuit, then they can achieve that harmony by interacting in a founded region as these are are exempted from this aspect of gameplay. Far greater and incomparable harm to the interactions between NationStates players occurred through the forum destructions which EuroSoviets has publicly boasted of than occurs through the tagging and temporary occupations of founderless regions which much of modern raiding consists of. As it is, regardless of whether or not one personally supports the practice of raiding, one should recognise that opposing prejudice in NationStates is a ultimately a higher and unifying priority.

[A Million Voices]

What's the need? Invaders are scum. They seek only to disrupt regions, the very bedrock of a civilization or politeia. They target founderless regions, the most vulnerable. They target regions which are often the least developed in terms of their culture, those who often don't work off of offsite forums, and thus, suffer an even greater harm by the destruction of their regions.

Whether or not invaders target regions because of some sort of hatred of a particular ethnicity, religion, race, or creed. Invaders hate civilization, community, the very interactions between peoples of Nations that makes this world worth living in. What's worse than that?

We know that raiders are seen as bullies, but that doesn't give people permission to lie about us.

[Drop Your Pants]

We know that raiders are seen as bullies, but that doesn't give people permission to lie about us.

Why not? Raiders lie about defenders all the time

[Blackbird]

What's the need? Invaders are scum. They seek only to disrupt regions, the very bedrock of a civilization or politeia. They target founderless regions, the most vulnerable. They target regions which are often the least developed in terms of their culture, those who often don't work off of offsite forums, and thus, suffer an even greater harm by the destruction of their regions.

Whether or not invaders target regions because of some sort of hatred of a particular ethnicity, religion, race, or creed. Invaders hate civilization, community, the very interactions between peoples of Nations that makes this world worth living in. What's worse than that?

We know that raiders are seen as bullies, but that doesn't give people permission to lie about us.

Why does it matter? Who cares if you hate Muslims or Irish people or Palestinians or proletarians in a coalition? You already hate all organized society. There isn't anything worse that that.

[A Million Voices]

Why does it matter? Who cares if you hate Muslims or Irish people or Palestinians or proletarians in a coalition? You already hate all organized society. There isn't anything worse that that.

Hmm... We hate organized society? That is quite a claim. Do you actually mean NationStates society?

We know that raiders are seen as bullies, but that doesn't give people permission to lie about us.

Why not? Raiders lie about defenders all the time

Oh?

[Blackbird]

Why does it matter? Who cares if you hate Muslims or Irish people or Palestinians or proletarians in a coalition? You already hate all organized society. There isn't anything worse that that.

Hmm... We hate organized society? That is quite a claim. Do you actually mean NationStates society?

I don't know why you hate. For nearly a decade I have observed the senseless acts of violence against regions, communities of people who come together around a common purpose who are of no threat to you. Perhaps, one may think that such a blatant disrespect for the ordering of human relationships into communities of people was simply the lashing out of deranged malcontents, but it's clear after years of observing such a pattern that rather than being the actions of madmen, it's simply the evil actions of perfectly sane people.

Which is why I think all this talk of whether you not invaders hate certain groups of people is all meaningless. Your actions seem to manifest a hatred of groups of people together: not any particular groups by common race, religion, or creed, but merely people in groups, particularly those who are least able to defend themselves.

[Eist]

If vulnerable players seek harmony from such pursuit, then they can achieve that harmony by interacting in a founded region as these are are exempted from this aspect of gameplay.

I know this may sound crazy, but maybe natives have some attachment to the region they may have existed in for over a decade, foundered or otherwise. You shouldn't have the right to raid the same region again and again and again carte blanche. It's wrong, and it's undoubtedly driving dedicated players from this game.

Far greater and incomparable harm to the interactions between NationStates players occurred through the forum destructions which EuroSoviets has publicly boasted of...

Yes, EuroSoviets indeed. Also, you should consider learning the art of brevity.

[Gest]

If vulnerable players seek harmony from such pursuit, then they can achieve that harmony by interacting in a founded region as these are are exempted from this aspect of gameplay.

I know this may sound crazy, but maybe natives have some attachment to the region they may have existed in for over a decade, foundered or otherwise. You shouldn't have the right to raid the same region again and again and again carte blanche. It's wrong, and it's undoubtedly driving dedicated players from this game.

This "meaningful" attachment surely ranks up there with religion, family, country, and favorite ice cream flavor. How shall these fragile souls ever stand up to people being "unkind" to them on the internet?

[Eist]

I know this may sound crazy, but maybe natives have some attachment to the region they may have existed in for over a decade, foundered or otherwise. You shouldn't have the right to raid the same region again and again and again carte blanche. It's wrong, and it's undoubtedly driving dedicated players from this game.

This "meaningful" attachment surely ranks up there with religion, family, country, and favorite ice cream flavor. How shall these fragile souls ever stand up to people being "unkind" to them on the internet?

Well, the vast majority do, therefore, this is not the correct question. The correct question is: Why should innocent natives put up with the attacks, the bannings, and the constant baiting from immature and angry teenagers crashing their little slice of this game?

My point is that there is raiding, then there is the same old constant flash raids hitting the same old tired and down-trodden regions every single update. Nobody is even watching, UDL will inexplicably sweep it all up in the morning, just for you to raid it again 12 hours later, and the only players that are affected are the innocent natives.

What's the point?

[Mallorea and Riva]

Eist why on Earth are you asking questions that you already know the answers to?

Frankly I'm somewhat surprised that TBR didn't begin to target Muslim regions as a response to these allegations.

[Gest]

This "meaningful" attachment surely ranks up there with religion, family, country, and favorite ice cream flavor. How shall these fragile souls ever stand up to people being "unkind" to them on the internet?

Why should innocent natives put up with the attacks, the bannings, and the constant baiting from immature and angry teenagers crashing their little slice of this game?

He who live near a freeway can hardly complain that the cars going by make too much noise. This is especially true when in NS all he has to do is move which costs him nothing but "emotional" attachment to data in cyberspace.

My point is that there is raiding, then there is the same old constant flash raids hitting the same old tired and down-trodden regions every single update. Nobody is even watching, UDL will inexplicably sweep it all up in the morning, just for you to raid it again 12 hours later, and the only players that are affected are the innocent natives.

What's the point?

It amuses us which is all that matters. If you want to get philosophic what is anyone's life but a piece of sand in the cosmic time-stream. All of NS history would be less than that the meanest particle of a piece of sand. Completely irrelevant in any significant way to human existence. If you seek some "higher meaning" then an online webgame is hardly the place to look for it.