The United Defenders League

[Sovreignry]

I think what we're forgetting here is that none of this would've happened if AO was better at hiding their vitriol when it comes to Unibot and EIoD. Either that or they need to do a better job of vetting members to make sure someone won't be able to go running to all and sundry with their hatred.

[Cormac Stark]

Bullshit. There are dozens of better quotes scattered over these forums alone that trump that one. And that still doesn't answer the question of why an entire album was posted.

While there may be quotes elsewhere, what you are not taking into consideration is that a) this particular screenshot was brought to our attention, while other quotes may not have been; and b) this particular screenshot demonstrates through its context that your motivation for destroying Eastern Islands of Dharma isn't just the usual R/D rivalry but is driven by your petty animosity toward Unibot and toward Eastern Islands of Dharma as an international federalist region. In this case, the context was important in order to demonstrate that this isn't just the usual R/D situation and that your actions have gone beyond the R/D rivalry and descended into personal grudges -- making you wholly unfit to be in the Hall of Honour.

Have you met Mousebumples? Because Unibot has. Refer to my quote above. The fact that you think the way you do leads me to believe that you are entirely ignorant regarding AO and it's workings.

I have in fact met Mousebumples. Aside from being a citizen of Antarctic Oasis who supported the invasion of Eastern Islands of Dharma, she is also an active citizen of Europeia which is where I met her. I'm not really sure how that's relevant, though. My point was simply that by supporting the invasion and griefing of a founderless region members of Antarctic Oasis revealed themselves as potential security risks for defender organizations, and Unibot alerting 10000 Islands to this was entirely appropriate.

Mmmm victim blaming from defenders. I love it. Besides from your logic what happened to Dharma is their own fault, and the fault of Unibot for getting deleted. You shouldn't feel bad for them! They brought it on themselves for not changing the password or keeping the region secure!

"Victim blaming" necessitates a victim, and no one in Antarctic Oasis is a victim here. Everyone in question a) made the decision to be supportive of the invasion and destruction of Eastern Islands of Dharma; and b) made the decision to publicly post messages reflecting that support. If their comments were justifiably forwarded to other defender organizations to which they may pose a security risk, that is no one's fault but their own for making themselves security risks to defender organizations. If their comments got caught up in the context of demonstrating the reasons for your removal from the Hall of Honour, that is unfortunate but necessary and once again no one's fault but their own. Members of Antarctic Oasis dropped any credible claim to being "victims" when they took it upon themselves to support the invasion and destruction of a region for their own petty reasons.

All we have here is Unibot taking digs over and over again at AO, in as grandiose a fashion as possible, while portraying himself as the moral savior of NS, Rightly judging all that occurs even on private forums, since he is Right and you are Wrong. Oh and Mouse is annoying since she's creeping up on his WA resolution count and AO is laughing at him, better get them all banned from some forums. Nice.

Again, you have no evidence whatsoever to back up these claims. Any "digs" that have been taken at Antarctic Oasis have been taken in response to your kvetching; we were content to let the screenshot illustrating our reasons for removing you from the Hall of Honour speak for itself. In regard to your ludicrous claim that Unibot was trying to get Mousebumples banned from other forums to hurt her WA career: Prove it. Right now all you've been able to prove is that Unibot was concerned for the security of 10000 Islands. It's time to put up or shut up: Prove these nefarious motives you claim Unibot has or just be quiet, because you're making yourself and Antarctic Oasis look more ridiculous with each post.

[Commonwealth of Independent Nations]

This conversation has certainly been interesting. I don't know what has amused me more: the complete disregard for privacy, the casual slandering of good and decent players like Mouse, the ducking and covering for Uni and his labyrinthine motives, or the sheer level of self-righteousness and self-congratulatory wanking associated with everyone connected to the UDL. I've never been fond of the gameplay side of NS at all, but UDL, through this whole mess, has accomplished something that no one else, in the 5+ years I've been playing this game, has ever been able to do: they've actually made me sympathetic to raiders. That's quite an accomplishment....y'all are sure doing your job well.

[Sovreignry]

This conversation has certainly been interesting. I don't know what has amused me more: the complete disregard for privacy, the casual slandering of good and decent players like Mouse, the ducking and covering for Uni and his labyrinthine motives, or the sheer level of self-righteousness and self-congratulatory wanking associated with everyone connected to the UDL. I've never been fond of the gameplay side of NS at all, but UDL, through this whole mess, has accomplished something that no one else, in the 5+ years I've been playing this game, has ever been able to do: they've actually made me sympathetic to raiders. That's quite an accomplishment....y'all are sure doing your job well.

Well, it seems you recently changed nations since I've been here little over a year and I have many times your population. If it's too personal a matter I would understand, or you can just TG me an answer, but what were your other nation names?

[Commonwealth of Independent Nations]

Well, it seems you recently changed nations since I've been here little over a year and I have many times your population. If it's too personal a matter I would understand, or you can just TG me an answer, but what were your other nation names?

I don't mind answering....I've had nation changes on my main multiple times due to RP'd events. I originally showed up here as Altanar back in 2006; I've also been known as the Altani Confederacy and the Altani Federation, and have had other nations as RP devices as well. I have to say, honestly, that nothing I've ever seen in that entire time has turned me off to the defender side of NS quite as much as the self-righteous nature of UDL. I'm not sure if they realize that this attitude does not help their cause, really, but whatever.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Bullshit. There are dozens of better quotes scattered over these forums alone that trump that one. And that still doesn't answer the question of why an entire album was posted.

While there may be quotes elsewhere, what you are not taking into consideration is that a) this particular screenshot was brought to our attention, while other quotes may not have been; and b) this particular screenshot demonstrates through its context that your motivation for destroying Eastern Islands of Dharma isn't just the usual R/D rivalry but is driven by your petty animosity toward Unibot and toward Eastern Islands of Dharma as an international federalist region. In this case, the context was important in order to demonstrate that this isn't just the usual R/D situation and that your actions have gone beyond the R/D rivalry and descended into personal grudges -- making you wholly unfit to be in the Hall of Honour.

You mean like when I told Unibot, in front of witnesses, in TNP irc channel? Or on the Osiris forums in the thread he started? Or here on the NS forums? None of those caught the UDL's attention? As for the context argument, nonsense. I'm not attacking Dharma because it's IntFed. I'm attacking Dharma because it's Dharma.

Have you met Mousebumples? Because Unibot has. Refer to my quote above. The fact that you think the way you do leads me to believe that you are entirely ignorant regarding AO and it's workings.

I have in fact met Mousebumples. Aside from being a citizen of Antarctic Oasis who supported the invasion of Eastern Islands of Dharma, she is also an active citizen of Europeia which is where I met her. I'm not really sure how that's relevant, though. My point was simply that by supporting the invasion and griefing of a founderless region members of Antarctic Oasis revealed themselves as potential security risks for defender organizations, and Unibot alerting 10000 Islands to this was entirely appropriate.

How is disliking Dharma becoming a general security risk Cormac? How is posting about the GA on their forums at all relevant?

Mmmm victim blaming from defenders. I love it. Besides from your logic what happened to Dharma is their own fault, and the fault of Unibot for getting deleted. You shouldn't feel bad for them! They brought it on themselves for not changing the password or keeping the region secure!

"Victim blaming" necessitates a victim, and no one in Antarctic Oasis is a victim here. Everyone in question a) made the decision to be supportive of the invasion and destruction of Eastern Islands of Dharma; and b) made the decision to publicly post messages reflecting that support. If their comments were justifiably forwarded to other defender organizations to which they may pose a security risk, that is no one's fault but their own for making themselves security risks to defender organizations. If their comments got caught up in the context of demonstrating the reasons for your removal from the Hall of Honour, that is unfortunate but necessary and once again no one's fault but their own. Members of Antarctic Oasis dropped any credible claim to being "victims" when they took it upon themselves to support the invasion and destruction of a region for their own petty reasons.

Of course there can't be victim blaming if you refuse to accept that anyone is a victim. And you have a very messed up definition of "public". It's actually a private discussion that your boss felt the need to publish, but it's ok because we're clearly an evil threat... Their comments had no business being in my Hall of Honour removal, it was entirely unnecessary.

All we have here is Unibot taking digs over and over again at AO, in as grandiose a fashion as possible, while portraying himself as the moral savior of NS, Rightly judging all that occurs even on private forums, since he is Right and you are Wrong. Oh and Mouse is annoying since she's creeping up on his WA resolution count and AO is laughing at him, better get them all banned from some forums. Nice.

Again, you have no evidence whatsoever to back up these claims. Any "digs" that have been taken at Antarctic Oasis have been taken in response to your kvetching; we were content to let the screenshot illustrating our reasons for removing you from the Hall of Honour speak for itself. In regard to your ludicrous claim that Unibot was trying to get Mousebumples banned from other forums to hurt her WA career: Prove it. Right now all you've been able to prove is that Unibot was concerned for the security of 10000 Islands. It's time to put up or shut up: Prove these nefarious motives you claim Unibot has or just be quiet, because you're making yourself and Antarctic Oasis look more ridiculous with each post.

Why do you keep using the singular? You posted an entire album of pictures. As for proof how about Unibot continuing to single out Mousebumples for insults as above? Unibot's hatred for 10000 Islands is as well known to you as it is to me, the idea that he shared this information out of the goodness of his heart because AO poses such a massive security threat to the NS world is absurd. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of AO history would laugh you out of the room due to your attempts to argue points of NS and Dharman history with no knowledge of either.

[Wolfvir]

Sorry to butt in, but what does Unibot hate 10000 islands?

[Mallorea and Riva]

Sorry to butt in, but what does Unibot hate 10000 islands?

There really is too much history here to get into it. That would need it's own thread >.> They've had their differences, and haven't resolved them amicably.

[Cormac Stark]

You mean like when I told Unibot, in front of witnesses, in TNP irc channel? Or on the Osiris forums in the thread he started? Or here on the NS forums? None of those caught the UDL's attention? As for the context argument, nonsense. I'm not attacking Dharma because it's IntFed. I'm attacking Dharma because it's Dharma.

And yet your jubilant encouragement of the destruction of Dharma on the forum of its leading national sovereigntist competitor tells a different tale.

How is disliking Dharma becoming a general security risk Cormac? How is posting about the GA on their forums at all relevant?

It's not simply disliking Dharma; it's actively supporting the invasion of Dharma. That demonstrates at minimum that one is raider sympathetic, which is something that defender regions and organizations should know and something that was entirely appropriate for Unibot to share with 10000 Islands. In regard to how someone could be a security risk with access to only certain parts of the forum, you may want to ask your friends on the raider side about that. It's not like defenders are the only ones who view giving access to any part of their forum to anyone from the opposing side as a security risk.

Why do you keep using the singular? You posted an entire album of pictures. As for proof how about Unibot continuing to single out Mousebumples for insults as above? Unibot's hatred for 10000 Islands is as well known to you as it is to me, the idea that he shared this information out of the goodness of his heart because AO poses such a massive security threat to the NS world is absurd. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of AO history would laugh you out of the room due to your attempts to argue points of NS and Dharman history with no knowledge of either.

And yet you lack any actual evidence that Unibot shared this information for any reason other than concern for 10000 Islands' security. It's true that for various reasons certain members of the UDL and certain members of TITO don't get along. What is also true is that Unibot has expressed over and over again his desire for greater defender solidarity. That Unibot shared this information with 10000 Islands out of concern for their security is far more plausible than your conspiracy theory, especially in the absence of any evidence whatsoever in support of your accusations.

[Mallorea and Riva]

You mean like when I told Unibot, in front of witnesses, in TNP irc channel? Or on the Osiris forums in the thread he started? Or here on the NS forums? None of those caught the UDL's attention? As for the context argument, nonsense. I'm not attacking Dharma because it's IntFed. I'm attacking Dharma because it's Dharma.

And yet your jubilant encouragement of the destruction of Dharma on the forum of its leading national sovereigntist competitor tells a different tale.

It being IntFed is one of the many pleasant perks of attacking Dharma. It's hardly the sole reason.

How is disliking Dharma becoming a general security risk Cormac? How is posting about the GA on their forums at all relevant?

It's not simply disliking Dharma; it's actively supporting the invasion of Dharma. That demonstrates at minimum that one is raider sympathetic, which is something that defender regions and organizations should know and something that was entirely appropriate for Unibot to share with 10000 Islands. In regard to how someone could be a security risk with access to only certain parts of the forum, you may want to ask your friends on the raider side about that. It's not like defenders are the only ones who view giving access to any part of their forum to anyone from the opposing side as a security risk.

Yet the fact that this attempt completely failed seems to indicate that even 10KI viewed this effort as being completely pointless.

Why do you keep using the singular? You posted an entire album of pictures. As for proof how about Unibot continuing to single out Mousebumples for insults as above? Unibot's hatred for 10000 Islands is as well known to you as it is to me, the idea that he shared this information out of the goodness of his heart because AO poses such a massive security threat to the NS world is absurd. Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of AO history would laugh you out of the room due to your attempts to argue points of NS and Dharman history with no knowledge of either.

And yet you lack any actual evidence that Unibot shared this information for any reason other than concern for 10000 Islands' security. It's true that for various reasons certain members of the UDL and certain members of TITO don't get along. What is also true is that Unibot has expressed over and over again his desire for greater defender solidarity. That Unibot shared this information with 10000 Islands out of concern for their security is far more plausible than your conspiracy theory, especially in the absence of any evidence whatsoever in support of your accusations.

You refusing to recognize evidence sitting in front of you is not the same as me lacking evidence.

[Cormac Stark]

Yet the fact that this attempt completely failed seems to indicate that even 10KI viewed this effort as being completely pointless.

It's up to 10000 Islands to decide what to do with the information they've been provided, but a decision on their part not to act on the information doesn't mean Unibot was wrong to provide it or that he had ulterior motives for doing so.

You refusing to recognize evidence sitting in front of you is not the same as me lacking evidence.

Again, I will ask you: What evidence? What you have provided proves simply that Unibot shared information with 10000 Islands. It most certainly does not prove this conspiracy theory you've concocted, as anyone looking at this objectively would likely agree. Until you provide actual evidence to support your wild accusations I'm not going to respond to you any further and I would strongly encourage other UDL members to do likewise.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Yet the fact that this attempt completely failed seems to indicate that even 10KI viewed this effort as being completely pointless.

It's up to 10000 Islands to decide what to do with the information they've been provided, but a decision on their part not to act on the information doesn't mean Unibot was wrong to provide it or that he had ulterior motives for doing so.

Just the fact that even they deemed this to be worthless information should point out to you perhaps it is obviously worthless from a security standpoint.

You refusing to recognize evidence sitting in front of you is not the same as me lacking evidence.

Again, I will ask you: What evidence? What you have provided proves simply that Unibot shared information with 10000 Islands. It most certainly does not prove this conspiracy theory you've concocted, as anyone looking at this objectively would likely agree. Until you provide actual evidence to support your wild accusations I'm not going to respond to you any further and I would strongly encourage other UDL members to do likewise.

Cormac if you really think that all of this really was just trying desperately to find a good quote to include in the reason to remove from the Hall of Honour after everything that has been said, I really don't think that there is anything I can do here. Even if I somehow convinced you, I'm sure you would just say that they deserved it for being raiders... I find this particular brand of defenderism to be great fun, the hypocrisy just bursts out with every action.

[Ambroscus Koth]

It's not simply disliking Dharma; it's actively supporting the invasion of Dharma. That demonstrates at minimum that one is raider sympathetic, which is something that defender regions and organizations should know and something that was entirely appropriate for Unibot to share with 10000 Islands.

Preeeeeettttyyyyy sure XKI has figured out by now that Mall is a little more than "raider sympathetic".

[Sovreignry]

It's not simply disliking Dharma; it's actively supporting the invasion of Dharma. That demonstrates at minimum that one is raider sympathetic, which is something that defender regions and organizations should know and something that was entirely appropriate for Unibot to share with 10000 Islands.

Preeeeeettttyyyyy sure XKI has figured out by now that Mall is a little more than "raider sympathetic".

Preeeeeeeeeeeety sure they were talking about Mousebumples since she was brought up earlier.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Preeeeeettttyyyyy sure XKI has figured out by now that Mall is a little more than "raider sympathetic".

Preeeeeeeeeeeety sure they were talking about Mousebumples since she was brought up earlier.

Oh. My mistake then, ignore me.

[Galiantus]

I've never been fond of the gameplay side of NS at all, but UDL, through this whole mess, has accomplished something that no one else, in the 5+ years I've been playing this game, has ever been able to do: they've actually made me sympathetic to raiders. That's quite an accomplishment....y'all are sure doing your job well.

Well they haven't made me sympathetic to them, but they are certainly giving me more reason to dislike them. The problem with the UDL and TBR is that they have become so entrenched in military gameplay that they have both lost sight of why they even do what they do; they raid for the sake of raiding, or defend for the sake of defending. The very least TBR could try to do is destroy or perminently capture regions: you know, what raiding was meant for? And the very least UDL could do is try to protect regions from destruction, rather than following TBR into oblivian.

Although this whole issue is irrelevant to me, my region, or my gameplay objectives, I wish UDL defenders had higher standards than they show in this topic, because defenders are the better side of gameplay. Seriously? All this blame and large egos running through the last 4 or 5 pages is not good for UDL or any of the parties involved.

[Cormac Stark]

---

At major update, the United Defenders League and the Founderless Regions Alliance successfully defended several regions against The Black Riders -- who were experiencing the same, erm, technical difficulties they experienced during the previous major update.

FINAL RESULTS | UDL & FRA: 11 | TBR: 06 | Missed: 10 | Founder Return: 01

The regions successfully defended by the UDL and FRA were:

The United Countries of Laetavita
Byonds Ragtag Group of Fools
Mount Olympus
Melonesia
Imperial Federation
Tzardom of Kazakhstan
Nukeland
Democratica
League of Righteousness
Nylarus
Eezonia

It was a great showing by our Merrymen and Merrywomen and by the FRA Rangers and we're proud to have successfully defended the natives of these regions against the oncoming graffiti. As for The Black Riders: Better luck next time, guys. I'd say we would go easier on you next time but, well, I'd be lying.

[Sovreignry]

I've never been fond of the gameplay side of NS at all, but UDL, through this whole mess, has accomplished something that no one else, in the 5+ years I've been playing this game, has ever been able to do: they've actually made me sympathetic to raiders. That's quite an accomplishment....y'all are sure doing your job well.

Well they haven't made me sympathetic to them, but they are certainly giving me more reason to dislike them. The problem with the UDL and TBR is that they have become so entrenched in military gameplay that they have both lost sight of why they even do what they do; they raid for the sake of raiding, or defend for the sake of defending. The very least TBR could try to do is destroy or perminently capture regions: you know, what raiding was meant for? And the very least UDL could do is try to protect regions from destruction, rather than following TBR into oblivian.

Although this whole issue is irrelevant to me, my region, or my gameplay objectives, I wish UDL defenders had higher standards than they show in this topic, because defenders are the better side of gameplay. Seriously? All this blame and large egos running through the last 4 or 5 pages is not good for UDL or any of the parties involved.

You know, I get tired of saying this...

WE DON'T HAVE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF UPDATERS EVERY NIGHT LIKE EVERYONE ASSUMES!

[Lyanna Stark]

Twas a really really fun update.

It was a nice stop in for pizza for that Founder Revive too! ^.^

[Soviet Canuckistan]

I've never been fond of the gameplay side of NS at all, but UDL, through this whole mess, has accomplished something that no one else, in the 5+ years I've been playing this game, has ever been able to do: they've actually made me sympathetic to raiders. That's quite an accomplishment....y'all are sure doing your job well.

Well they haven't made me sympathetic to them, but they are certainly giving me more reason to dislike them. The problem with the UDL and TBR is that they have become so entrenched in military gameplay that they have both lost sight of why they even do what they do; they raid for the sake of raiding, or defend for the sake of defending. The very least TBR could try to do is destroy or perminently capture regions: you know, what raiding was meant for? And the very least UDL could do is try to protect regions from destruction, rather than following TBR into oblivian.

Although this whole issue is irrelevant to me, my region, or my gameplay objectives, I wish UDL defenders had higher standards than they show in this topic, because defenders are the better side of gameplay. Seriously? All this blame and large egos running through the last 4 or 5 pages is not good for UDL or any of the parties involved.

How can we protect founderless regions? We can't revive founders and can't put a bunch of people to endo a delegate(which still wouldn't work). And you're saying that the UDL is too entrenched in military gameplay, when the only purpose of the organization is military gameplay?

[Galiantus]

Well they haven't made me sympathetic to them, but they are certainly giving me more reason to dislike them. The problem with the UDL and TBR is that they have become so entrenched in military gameplay that they have both lost sight of why they even do what they do; they raid for the sake of raiding, or defend for the sake of defending. The very least TBR could try to do is destroy or perminently capture regions: you know, what raiding was meant for? And the very least UDL could do is try to protect regions from destruction, rather than following TBR into oblivian.

Although this whole issue is irrelevant to me, my region, or my gameplay objectives, I wish UDL defenders had higher standards than they show in this topic, because defenders are the better side of gameplay. Seriously? All this blame and large egos running through the last 4 or 5 pages is not good for UDL or any of the parties involved.

You know, I get tired of saying this...

WE DON'T HAVE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF UPDATERS EVERY NIGHT LIKE EVERYONE ASSUMES!

If you are interpreting that as a reference to size, you are completely wrong. My two arguments were as follows: 1) UDL is playing the raider game, and that is detrimental to how efficient it can be. 2) UDL needs to clean up its act with regards to public relations and quit letting personal vandettas/personal preferences get in the way of relationships.

I know it is hard to get people on for the updates. Armies regularly face that problem. This has nothing to do with size.

[Sovreignry]

If you are interpreting that as a reference to size, you are completely wrong.
I know it is hard to get people on for the updates. Armies regularly face that problem. This has nothing to do with size.

Could've fooled me.

And the very least UDL could do is try to protect regions from destruction, rather than following TBR into oblivian.

That requires numbers. Numbers that we don't have every damn night.

[Galiantus]

Well they haven't made me sympathetic to them, but they are certainly giving me more reason to dislike them. The problem with the UDL and TBR is that they have become so entrenched in military gameplay that they have both lost sight of why they even do what they do; they raid for the sake of raiding, or defend for the sake of defending. The very least TBR could try to do is destroy or perminently capture regions: you know, what raiding was meant for? And the very least UDL could do is try to protect regions from destruction, rather than following TBR into oblivian.

Although this whole issue is irrelevant to me, my region, or my gameplay objectives, I wish UDL defenders had higher standards than they show in this topic, because defenders are the better side of gameplay. Seriously? All this blame and large egos running through the last 4 or 5 pages is not good for UDL or any of the parties involved.

How can we protect founderless regions?

I don't know how to answer that without insulting both our intelligence.

We can't revive founders and can't put a bunch of people to endo a delegate(which still wouldn't work).

Of course you can't. That is an obvious strawman to anyone who understands military gameplay. Why not have non-updaters work with active Natives to help them refound? Or do you not care that regions with a disire to survive stay captive to the bonds of founderlessness? Also, just because someone can't participate in the update does not mean they can't be doing something to help the cause.

And you're saying that the UDL is too entrenched in military gameplay, when the only purpose of the organization is military gameplay?

Well I guess you can defend purely for the military gameplay part of it, but that would mean you are doing so for the exact same reasons TBR invades. UDL is too focussed on Achieving statistics than bringing about better results for Natives of founderless regions. To many, defending is an end in and of itself; a contest between them and the raiders, and not a means for world improvement.

[Galiantus]

If you are interpreting that as a reference to size, you are completely wrong.
I know it is hard to get people on for the updates. Armies regularly face that problem. This has nothing to do with size.

Could've fooled me.

And the very least UDL could do is try to protect regions from destruction, rather than following TBR into oblivian.

That requires numbers. Numbers that we don't have every damn night.

Tell me again how detagging regions keeps them from being destroyed?

[Sovreignry]

Could've fooled me.



That requires numbers. Numbers that we don't have every damn night.

Tell me again how detagging regions keeps them from being destroyed?

Tell me where I said that?